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Is my Digital Piano Heavy Action killing my playing?


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Back in 2018 I`ve posted about how I fet the Yamaha CP33 action is very very heavy..., couldn`t get another 88 note controller but after playing with Roland FP10 and Yamaha P45 in a local store I wonder if I can still tolarate my current board.... I feel the playfulness is dead around here....
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Hmmm.

These are digital actions - facsimile of a grand piano action - and older designs at that. More so than key weight, speed and fluidity of the mechanism and how hard it bottoms out are the biggest factors for me. Length of key, where the pivot point is located also factors. On the CP4 Yamaha kept the action feeling quick with a spring - it actually made it more similar to what acoustic piano players are used to.

 

One"s age, health, dexterity and strength are always a factor as well. Frequent playing for shorter amounts of time help. Warning up and cooling down. Stretching.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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I'm a piano player at heart.

 

The jazz band at work provided us with a CP33, the action is too stiff.

 

I used to own a P90 and sold it because the action is too stiff.

 

I've been auditioning plenty of DPs and many of them have stiff action.

 

This is a major pet peeve of mine. Yes heavy stiff action will hurt your hands.

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The heavy, sluggish feeling of most digital pianos has held me back from buying one over the last couple of years. My acoustic piano has a very fast and light action which I love, but I'd like something I can play at any time of day or night with headphones.

 

I thought the Kawai ES8 felt pretty good. Haven't been able to try out the new ES920 yet.

 

I finally came across a Casio PX-S3000 yesterday. It was on the wall almost 6 feet off the floor, so getting a good feel for it was out of the question. There seems to be a lot of love/hate for the action on line regarding the pivot point and difference in key weighting, so I'll need to try one again sometime when I can sit down and play it properly. It checks a lot of boxes for me feature wise. Don't really care if the speakers are any good or not, but the action is of utmost importance.

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The last 4 years (killed by COVID) of my piano bar gig were an eye opener for me. Before that, the keyboard at work was a Kurzweil digital. At that point they did a million dollar overhaul of the place and brought in a Yamaha baby grand, a real honest to God piano. It was a pleasure to play (unlike other venues I've played with real pianos they actually were serious about maintaining it) and I was struck by how, compared to the real deal, the P90 I used to practice on at home felt like it had cold molasses poured over the keys. My Casio Px5s, which up to that point was a "gig only" board, feels much closer to the real thing, at least in terms of resistance....and hey, these days a "gig only" board is kinda.......redundant.......
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The last 4 years (killed by COVID) of my piano bar gig were an eye opener for me. Before that, the keyboard at work was a Kurzweil digital. At that point they did a million dollar overhaul of the place and brought in a Yamaha baby grand, a real honest to God piano. It was a pleasure to play (unlike other venues I've played with real pianos they actually were serious about maintaining it) and I was struck by how, compared to the real deal, the P90 I used to practice on at home felt like it had cold molasses poured over the keys. My Casio Px5s, which up to that point was a "gig only" board, feels much closer to the real thing, at least in terms of resistance....and hey, these days a "gig only" board is kinda.......redundant.......

 

I can relate. The last 5 years I've been playing a well-maintained Yamaha grand at work, and coming back to a heavy P90 which was sold for a CP4 which, although miles better was still too heavy, I sold for what I thought was a bit lighter Studiologic SL88, which turned out to be too flubby which I replaced with an Arturia Keylab MKII 88 which I parted with within a couple of months. All of these contributed to split fingertips, and increasingly painful thumb joints.

 

Finally I've settled on my favourite action in years, a Korg GrandStage. Of course, time will tell. I've been told I tend to "catch a lot of waves."

 

I think I might have been better off all around to get a CP1 which I've heard had wonderfully light action (or was that the 5?), but that's water under the bridge now.

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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Wow, I'm currently wandering through the same dilemma.

 

I purchased an SL88 Grand which supposedly has the same Fatar keybed as the Nord Stage and Kurz Forte, both of which I find very usable.

 

Although I wouldn't say it is WAY heavier than those keyboards, it is noticeable. Then I did a lot of practicing in Nov and early Dec on the SL88 Grand and noticed I had some sore bits in my forearms that I never really experienced before. I've also noticed that when my hands are even just a little bit cold, the SL88 becomes very difficult and I play like crap.

 

I also can't seem to get my VST piano velocities to match up with it naturally.

 

I used to think the Nord Stage 3 had heavier action but this SL88 has made it seem very nice by comparison.

You want me to start this song too slow or too fast?

 

Forte7, Nord Stage 3, XK3c, OB-6, Arturia Collection, Mainstage, MotionSound KBR3D. A bunch of MusicMan Guitars, Line6 stuff

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I"m a veteran of these issues, my advice Kawai ES110

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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I find these debates interesting, having begun on piano. I had a stout Shoninger console with a sweet tone and a Baldwin baby grand as a kid/teenager, followed by years of Keyboard Hell, well known to many. I had a sweet Wurly, a crappy Rhodes, a worse CP20 and then my starter era of synths. The Kawai K5 had a keyboard that felt like wooden planks. Lousy actions are not at all new. I went mostly Korg-y over time & still use a baby Triton a bit, but my aging hands now heart XKeys. I still have some good muscle memory and playing fake Mellotron involves 0% strain. Its been a strange full circle.

 

Roland and Casio actions feel too mushy for me. Kawai has the best I've personally tried, offering the most realistic snap. Yamaha DPs are close behind. I've played Nord Leads, but none of their pianos, so I can't comment with only specs & YouTube demos under my belt.

 

Full disclosure: My opinion only goes a few miles, since I lost it over the piano disk for my Mirage. :/

 "I want to be an intellectual, but I don't have the brainpower.
  The absent-mindedness, I've got that licked."
        ~ John Cleese

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I too find these discussions interesting.

 

I wanna back up what PianoMan said: when I play my DP with the volume low, I end up working harder. The fact is with a DP, the volume is adjustable, and I think some pianists forget this difference from APs

 

My experience has been that when I find an AP "in the wild", the action is always horrible: either the thing is horribly stiff, or the resistance has all been played out of it. Either way, playing dynamically is difficult. The only great APs I've played have always been expensive name concert grands in academic music departments.

 

A couple of years ago I wandered into the local piano showroom where they had 40-50 new and used instruments. I went around the room trying out the different instruments. I kept thinking these pianos are worst than my Roland RD700: there was only one piano in that showroom I preferred to my DP.

 

And even if I were to stipulate that the action on my DP is not as good as an AP, with my DP I get midi, a large library of other sounds, and I can carry the thing from room to room, for less than the price of a mid-level upright.

 

So I 'm fine right now with my DP. I know it is not the best action, and I know I am not a virtuostic player. It is my technique that holds me back, not the DP's action.

J.S. Bach Well Tempered Klavier

The collected works of Scott Joplin

Ray Charles Genius plus Soul

Charlie Parker Omnibook

Stevie Wonder Songs in the Key of Life

Weather Report Mr. Gone

 

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If you are having so much difficulty with action weight do checkout the Korg B2N.

 

The N version of the B2 has much lighter weighting to the keys than the standard version.

 

It was the lightest action of all the digital pianos in this price point that I tried when I was looking for a cheaper DP.

Col

 

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My experience is the opposite of most here, save maybe Bb Altered: I have to have a heavy- enough action DP at home to keep my finger strength up, to be ready for gigs that provide an acoustic grand. The action on those varies wildly, but none could be considered light. The best piano of those a year old Kawai GL30, very expressive, quality action, but also very heavy. If I have been practicing during the week on my Kawai ES 110 (which I like alot) I struggle with the real grand.

 

I have a Yamaha CP300 for a heavy action board but the best I have found for building finger strength with a more natural, non tabletop feel is a Roland RD 64 (I would like to find the 88 key equivalent, RD 800 seems to be the closest).

 

I understand the main consideration here is hand and wrist pain. I am finding out that my connective tissue elsewhere is not what it used to be, but so far I have been lucky enough to not have any trouble with my hands, in fact I like to do activities that strengthen my grip. Chopping wood is good for playing rock and roll (so are Yamaha CP300's) and no, I don't care if the money's no good.

 

By far, the heaviest action DP I have owned was the Yamaha P200, the "Medsun Ball" of DP's. I also had a P120, was the same until Yamaha replaced the action with the lighter P140 keys.

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I understand the main consideration here is hand and wrist pain. I am finding out that my connective tissue elsewhere is not what it used to be, but so far I have been lucky enough to not have any trouble with my hands, in fact I like to do activities that strengthen my grip.

QFT.

 

IMO, Father Time is the main culprit. It is easy enough to find a DP or KB that is "easier" to play.

 

Whether it is repetitive activities or aging in general, exercise is the key (no pun intended) to longevity i.e. being able to "play" comfortably. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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In my case I"ve found that actions under 55 grams of Downweight are generally the least aggravating to my tendinitis and less fatigueing.

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Regardless of your keybed, one issue is how loud you set the volume. If you set the volume higher this will force you to play softer, and with less weight on your fingers, hands and wrists.

 

I want to jump in to stress this point. The best thing I ever did for my hands and playing, regardless of what stage piano I was using, was going to in-ears that I controlled. Being able to hear my keys clearly, and not covered up by other instruments had my hand, fingers, and wrists feeling fresh at the end of the night. I was playing the piano, and not pounding the piano.

 

All that said, from my very subjective standpoint, the best action I've played for my hand is my Casio PX-5S, followed by the PX-S3000

The keyboard that feels closest, to me, to my 1973 Steinway L was my Roland FA-08 (sold it) and my current Roland A88 MK2

 

Currently I am using a MODX8 in my stage rig for reasons that have to do with sounds, and needing the 88 board also be a capable synth for the current gig. I find it's in between the PX5S and Roland FA/A88

 

Again, actually being able to hear my keys on stage clearly, has made me play better, and been wonderful as far as no more fatigue.

David

Gig Rig:Casio Privia PX-5S | Yamaha MODX+ 6 | MacBook Pro 14" M1| Mainstage

 

 

 

 

 

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Interesting conversation. +1 on the volume suggestion, worked great for me on live gigs. Before, I was trashing my hands beating up the keyboard trying to be heard. No longer.

 

I now rotate between three distinct actions: a NP4 (lightest, used for gigging), a Bosie (medium, played at home) and a Yamaha AG N3 (heavy, home). All are enjoyable in their own ways. I actually look forward to time with the AG as it kicks my butt for a few days until the fingers strengthen and then all is well. Sort of like going to the gym.

 

Lots of lightly-weighted DPs out there, so shop around!

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Copy and paste from Paul Lee MD

 

'Proper piano playing involves relaxation of the entire hand. Your fingers move very smoothly, imagine it as water flowing through a stream.

 

Any tension in your hand creates a very ugly sound on an acoustic piano and makes it utterly impossible to play at high speeds.

 

Whenever you see these 'pianists" play on a digital or electric piano (especially without weighted keys) like they are slamming the notes, it is incorrect. The reason they can do that and not make it sound like an utter disaster is because they make their settings into such that it doent matter what touch you place on the keys, it all sounds the same. A non weighted keyboard is not capable of producing variance in touch and loud/softness.

 

Do not mistake the powerful notes played by classical concert pianists; when they hit powerful notes they do what is called a gravity drop. Their hands are relaxed and allowed to simply drop to produce a powerful sound.

 

***

 

You do not develop 'finger strength" or anything like that in piano â that is incorrect. It isn"t strength.. it is finger control. Relax your fingers and hands, train your brain to coordinate your fingers so they can have independence (finger independence) by practicing very slowly, 1 hand at a time, keeping your hands very very relaxed.

 

If anyone has the idea that developing a strong grip, forearm muscles etc will help with playing, that is absolutely the wrong approach to piano.

***

I am also an amateur bodybuilder. In bodybuilding, we contract the msucles we are trying to grow. A lot of mental focus is needed to mentally separate that msucle and make it contract, with th euse of accesory muscles, tendons,p ligemants, at a minimum. in other words, I cani keep my fingers very relaxed while I do bench press for instance, because of the way I can mentlay isoalte the pectorals to make the lift.

 

Powerlifting, on the other hand you are using everything you got to lift it. That may cause your fingers to be stiffer because you will be used to creating tension in your entire body to set a foundation for heavy lifts. When I started lifting I focused on lifting heavy weights and gaining strength. So I would know.'

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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I haven"t played an acoustic piano for years but I do have a Rhodes and until recently an EP200a. It"s always surprised me that some modern keyboards i"ve owned had heavier actions. Roland Rd64 and Korg SV1 we"re both heavier. I know it"s a very basic measure but using weights is informative to demonstrate how much weight is needed to depress a key, Both my Wurly and Rhodes required less than 80 grams to fully depress a key. My CP73 is in the same range and bizarrely requires a lot less force to depress a key my Nord Electro 6D which has a waterfall keyboard.

 

I would be interested to know how much weight other DPs require.

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Interest being I spent most my music life playing guitar, when I was playing a lot like in music school or gigging days my hands got stronger. As my hand got strong I would go up in string gauge which would be like making a piano keybed harder. When I used to be around great bassist Marcus Miller he said when on tour his hands would get stronger so he would keep adjusting his strings higher again like making keybed harder. On guitar heavier strings are fatter chunkier sound, bass as Marcus would say he could dig in more.

 

Now I remember when I used to go see Lee Ritenour at the Baked Potato all the time and he had Dave Grusin on piano sometimes. I heard some piano players talk about Grusin's pianos. They said both his personal grand piano and Rhodes the keys both were customized for ultra light touch of only a couple grams. Sorry they said how many grams, but that way too long ago for my brain to remember. Then when at sessions for guitarist I roadied for one night great studio pianist, producer, arrange Greg Mathison fell by studio and there happen to be a full size grand piano that was delivered for sessions the next day. Our engineer said they are tuning it tomorrow morning so we can use if we want. So we had are really rockin' tune and had Greg lay down a track. I never saw a piano player play so hard the entire grand piano was moving back and forth. That piano tuner will have more to do in the morning than he is expecting.

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You do not develop 'finger strength" or anything like that in piano â that is incorrect. It isn"t strength.. it is finger control. Relax your fingers and hands, train your brain to coordinate your fingers so they can have independence (finger independence) by practicing very slowly, 1 hand at a time, keeping your hands very very relaxed.

 

If anyone has the idea that developing a strong grip, forearm muscles etc will help with playing, that is absolutely the wrong approach to piano.'

 

So you can practice on nothing other than your Kawaii ES 110 all week, and then gig a much heavier action acoustic (albeit only for short periods of time, in your case, before hand and wrist pain sets in) with no problems? Just curious. It doesn't work for me, and I do practice things that are giving me trouble at half speed or so, until I have more relaxed and confidant control.

 

Also, I wonder why organists like Joey D make a point of getting in regular practice time on an acoustic piano, if they only perform on organ. Great point about finger control, but to say there is no such thing as finger strength strikes me as a stretch.

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There is finger strength but it is a small component of where the majority of strength comes from. It's in the rotation and drop.

 

"So you can practice on nothing other than your Kawaii ES 110 all week, and then gig a much heavier action acoustic (albeit only for short periods of time, in your case, before hand and wrist pain sets in) with no problems? "

 

No, but I don't want to have a tendinitis problem before I even get to a gig with a heavier action; although sometimes they are actually lighter. I adjust. There is no good solution to avoiding wrist pain on a heavy action other than keeping the wrists from going off-angle, not over percussing, avoid wide voicings, taking it easy, etc. I accept that.

 

By the way, my Mason and Hamlin acoustic action is lighter than my ES110. It's around 47 grams which is ideal. The Bechstein I play is around 42 grams. The P120 and P250 I hade were like 70-85 grams of stiffness.

 

I think it takes more effort to make pianos with lighter fast dynamic and durable actions, and thus American piano culture has somehow conditioned players to think that heavy actions are better. Maybe it's true for those who are not prone to repetitive stress problems.

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Regardless of your keybed, one issue is how loud you set the volume. If you set the volume higher this will force you to play softer, and with less weight on your fingers, hands and wrists.

 

I want to jump in to stress this point. The best thing I ever did for my hands and playing, regardless of what stage piano I was using, was going to in-ears that I controlled. Being able to hear my keys clearly, and not covered up by other instruments had my hand, fingers, and wrists feeling fresh at the end of the night. I was playing the piano, and not pounding the piano.

 

I also really agree with this. Being able to clearly hear what you"re playing helps immensely. I don"t use in-ears but find that having 100% control of my own monitoring prevents me from bashing the keys unnecessarily.

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Only recently do I have a feeling of an acoustic instrument when playing digital, thanks to directed editing efforts starting to pay of for my instruments.

 

I'm 6f4 and in a age group when that would amuse me could press a scale to 120kG squeezing hands, I think generally mature men of reasonable strength should be able to break a digital piano with pure strength, which I've understood from service people some people take as an option to prove a certain crude peasantry of their character with. I learned some acoustic guitar at a high school sailing camp, and never felt a piano or digital was "too heavy". Almost never do I feel a pleasant physical velocity to sound color from a digital, nevertheless: even high resolution velocity curves are hard to tune to the subtleties of transferring applied finger strength to a well in phase piano mechanism driving the intended strings properly, and that's not even talking about Concert Steinway effects!

 

It's fun to do that boogie woogie with the whole space resonating to your piano playing, but it's harder to get a controlled piano sound like a concert oianist or proof your chord accuracy for applying to the job of keyboard p,ayer with the Crusaders. I suppose a lot of people expect their digital to a lot of "toucher" for them when playing digital, but factually most digital solutions as they are simply are not able to respond acoustically accurate enough for a variety of technical reasons.

 

I find the CP4 pretty much as advertised one of the best digital piano actions in the world, but that's meaningless with certain playing styles.

 

T.

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My big problem with a mega heavy action, aside from all the finger and hand joint unpleasantness, is the feeling that if I'm trying to play anything with any amount of speed it just really feels like i'm trying to sprint through knee deep mud. I notice this way before I begin to start paying attention to how much down force playing an individual key takes......
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello,

 

I own a P80 (GH keyboard similar to P60 / 90 / P120, possibly the exact same action) and was looking at buying another DP with an amplifier.

I'm very interested about this debate on feel and weight.

 

By the way, my Mason and Hamlin acoustic action is lighter than my ES110. It's around 47 grams which is ideal. The Bechstein I play is around 42 grams. The P120 and P250 I hade were like 70-85 grams of stiffness.

 

I'm not sure the P80 / 120 feel is perfect - or nowhere near - but it is heavy. The hottest portable Yamaha is the P515 which was a newer NWX action with wooden keys (same as CLP-645 I believe), and reviewers say it is very heavy as well.

 

Some say it is too heavy and not close to any acoustic pianos. Well, I say not ANY. My father owns a Petrof Grand from the 90s (not sure which model) and the keys are very heavy as well. I did not measure but we are in the 80 grams range as well. And where the Yamaha action gets light when the key starts to move, this is heavy from top to bottom.

Anyway, I'm fine with heavy keys so far, I'm not sure the lighter Kawai action would suit me, but I may very well be wrong

If this topic was only a search for light action, then just avoid Yamaha. It seems to me that when Yamaha does a light action, it's not very a good one.

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I haven't pulled the trigger on a digital piano yet until I find something similar in feel to my acoustic piano. (Which I've had since I was about 6 years old.) It's getting tired, but I love the fast action.

 

I just measured the down weight of middle C. It's about 40 grams.

 

I know I won't find a weighted digital that light, but if I can find one that doesn't have that sluggish, bouncy feel that most seem to have I might be happy.

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