Since the KC is the center of the Universe

[zukskywalker]

I have to ask here, right now...WHERE ARE WE?

 

In terms of.virtual jams, and online musical collaborations is there any consensus on what"s best?

 

I"ve got SERIOUS muso"s lining up and something will happen today but right now they"re heading towards using JamKazam and I have my reservations. Any advice or help here? (at the center of the universe)?

[ElmerJFudd]

Jam Kazam is writing new software and changing infrastructure to improve their service. Seeing what an important tech this is becoming they are moving to a paid business model.

 

SoundJack is still in R&D/Proof of concept stage. It"s not slick as a product yet, but it works and is still free. More info at soundjack.eu

 

There are others but they are all trying to improve on the same shortcomings in our commonly available technology.

You still need a fast PC, fast Internet, wired Ethernet connection, low latency ASIO audio interface, mic and headphones. Jam Kazam supports a video feed. SoundJack has it in beta.

 

Elk Audio is working on Aloha.

 

https://alohabyelk.com/

 

5G is supposed to be a big jump in this tech.

 

If you can do a project by sending guide tracks to everyone and then assembling later in a DAW or Video Editing suite, that"s still going to produce best product/results.

[zukskywalker]

Thanks. We have decent pc"s, Fios Internet, and hard Ethernet. Decent mics and headphones. And I still have asio4all sitting around somewhere.

 

Love the idea of video integration in JK because of the importance of visual cues in jazz.

But will take a look at Soundjack and elk Audio"s aloha.

Thanks again! (So it looks like this place really is the center of the Universe.) and taking the corny risk to now say 'this is the way.'

[ElmerJFudd]

Just started Mandalorian season 2. Let us know how it goes.

[KuruPrionz]

and hard Ethernet.

 

The 5g mentioned above may provide a serious breakthrough in online jamming.

 

Even if all of your software is instantaneous (it isn't, but it's getting close), running through current cable networks (depending on local traffic) is your bottle neck.

5g should be much faster, enough to move all of you and your neighbors' data at acceptable speeds.

[Dave Bryce]

Just started Mandalorian season 2. Let us know how it goes.

MAN, I love that show.

 

dB

[Dr Mike Metlay]

So do I.

 

And I have a fair number of friends who use JamKazam a lot. I am skeptical (physics) but will try it at some point, although if the paywall is too intimidating I'll stick to NINJAM, which is great for ambient and is a free part of Reaper.

[zukskywalker]

You are being pulled in by the sheer force of the tech and talent harnessed and amassed by the dread mouse known to some as evil Mickey. And I should know. Spooky stuff going on... learned from video gaming of all Things. Note that you won"t see anything that says 'this movie has been modified or sdjusted for tv. What we are getting is very close to raw product. Not converted from the 'big screen' but created specifically for YOUR 'big screen' and for our audiophile sound systems at home. No aliasing or 'quantizing' anywhere.

 

The world has changed and the mouse knows it. Bye bye Big CInema. At least for awhile anyway.

 

The Volume is insanity I tell you!

This is the way

[zukskywalker]

And back on point in terms of the virtual performance stuff I find it fascinating that musicians might be able to seize upon 5g amidst all of the 5g conspiracy and controversial stuff going on. and it actually seems to make a lot of sense.

So...new tidbit here. What is ninjam? (Thanks though,I will search it.)

[ElmerJFudd]

I learned one thing right away when experimenting with real time rehearsal over the Internet.

Latency is no fun for collaborative music making - but worse is random latency. Unpredictable latency.

If they can get the delay down as low as possible and keep it consistent, that goes a long way toward being functional.

 

Ninjam is another effort to make internet playing possible using a buffering scheme where parts of what you play are recorded and then sent out to the other players in sections.

[jazzpiano88]

Isn't one of the biggest limitations that not all of the jamming musicians have the required bandwidth in addition to close to zero latency?

It really requires almost perfect reliability over the net to sync up a 5 people for 5 minutes to 50ms, unlike a streaming buffering algorithm serving to a listener requesting a song on iTunes.

[ElmerJFudd]

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

[KuruPrionz]

Isn't one of the biggest limitations that not all of the jamming musicians have the required bandwidth in addition to close to zero latency?

It really requires almost perfect reliability over the net to sync up a 5 people for 5 minutes to 50ms, unlike a streaming buffering algorithm serving to a listener requesting a song on iTunes.

 

That and other quirks.

Tomorrow the company I work for will have a Zoom meeting. There will be 8 or 9 of us.

I'll test my mic and the round trip is horrendously long. I'll test my video and a very short time after I blink, my screen image will blink. Sometimes that reverses.

 

Sometimes I watch others speak, see their mouths making words and then a bit later I hear them. Other times I will hear their voice and then their mouth moves.

 

Not sure what is up with that but I do know that we all instinctively lock a groove together and a big part of that is watching the other players move. If you can see the snare hand come down, you know when to strike.

Conspiracy or not, 5g is faster. Faster is better. Will it be good enough? I'm guessing it won't be but some of us will use it anyway.

 

I like Dr. Mike's solution, play ambient - where no matter when things transmogrify, it is transcendent and cool sounding.

[Markay]

5g is "last mile" technology. It all feeds in to a fibre backhaul. Consumer network speed is focussed on download speed, not upload. Minimum latency for live performance requires synchronised upload and download speed's and is then subject to network congestion once it hits the fibre network. So live performance will remain hit or miss. Nothing better yet than sending the backing track, laying it down, uploading it and producing it in a DAW. Virtual, tight, in the pocket jams remain a dream that 5g is not going to turn into a reality

[ElmerJFudd]

Isn't one of the biggest limitations that not all of the jamming musicians have the required bandwidth in addition to close to zero latency?

It really requires almost perfect reliability over the net to sync up a 5 people for 5 minutes to 50ms, unlike a streaming buffering algorithm serving to a listener requesting a song on iTunes.

 

That and other quirks.

Tomorrow the company I work for will have a Zoom meeting. There will be 8 or 9 of us.

I'll test my mic and the round trip is horrendously long. I'll test my video and a very short time after I blink, my screen image will blink. Sometimes that reverses.

 

Sometimes I watch others speak, see their mouths making words and then a bit later I hear them. Other times I will hear their voice and then their mouth moves.

 

Not sure what is up with that but I do know that we all instinctively lock a groove together and a big part of that is watching the other players move. If you can see the snare hand come down, you know when to strike.

Conspiracy or not, 5g is faster. Faster is better. Will it be good enough? I'm guessing it won't be but some of us will use it anyway.

 

I like Dr. Mike's solution, play ambient - where no matter when things transmogrify, it is transcendent and cool sounding.

 

Zoom, FaceTime, MS Teams, other communication software that isn"t timing critical isn"t focused on solving this problem for musicians. Hence the efforts of others.

[PianoMan51]

Your 'network speed" isn"t speed. It"s throughput. This is the amount of data you can pump through the system in a given time. It has no direct bearing on latency, though perhaps an indirect bearing if less buffering is required.

 

Latency is the amount of time a single packet needs to go from point A to point B. This is limited by the speed of light over the required distance and the number and quality of network routers in between.

 

If you consider the complaints of pianists trying to use a VST on a system with 15mS latency, then imagine trying to lock onto a drummer with 16th note precision via a round trip latency of 50mS.

 

So, it is conceivable that some folks can jam together with short distances and loose timing. Long distances and tight timing are highly improbable until wormhole technology becomes integrated into the telecom backbone.

[zukskywalker]

Good ol fashion analogue television production used to be all about sync and everything arriving somewhere at the same time. As a result there were frame syncs and timebase correctors all over the place used to 'correct'timing. Where not practical a subtractive technique was utilized that is/was called a mix-minus. Where a delay or'latency' was intolerable that signal was simply removed from the monitor mix and the target performer only heard the final mix without hearing themselves in the return monitor mix.

Perhaps each and every musician participating in a session should get their own mix minus and listen to the work in progress in very close to real time with only one comprehensive delay.

Hmmm.. crazy stuff.

You would only hear yourself love as an input source and not coming back in the mix at after the live session is over everybody gets to hear the full mix after the fact.

 

(Sorry, kinda thinking out loud here.)