XK5/NumaOrgan 2/Dexibell J7/Viscount Legend, do you have?

[paulmapp8306]

OK. I have a Legend EXP and totally love it.

 

I tried the Gemini - which was on par but more expensive (with the interface addition).

I tried the VR730 which is a really nice machine - but the Leslie is its week point - need to factor in a vent then its supurb.

Couple of acquaintances have Hammonds - one has the XK5 - again its a close call but we all think the Legend EXP is JUST a tad better

Havent tried the Dexibell or Numa

 

I have tried the Nords as well - easily the worst of those I have heard (even the VR730 is better to my ears despite the leslie).

[Delaware Dave]

To be fair, the Legend EXP does one thing (organ) while the Gemini offers a couple of dozen of top notch instruments; I would expect the Gemini to cost more. Here is a Mojo vs. a Legend through a 3300. All drawbars out. Read all comments, The consensus seems to be that the Mojo is the preferred sound.

 

https://www.facebook.com/delroy.white.9/videos/vb.100001044541947/3200927756618678/?type=2&video_source=user_video_tab

[AnotherScott]

To be fair, the Legend EXP does one thing (organ) while the Gemini offers a couple of dozen of top notch instruments; I would expect the Gemini to cost more.

and the new Mojo Desktop will get a bit closer to Legend pricing (losing those other instruments, but gaining the built-in drawbars, etc.).

 

Here is a Mojo vs. a Legend through a 3300. All drawbars out. Read all comments, The consensus seems to be that the Mojo is the preferred sound.

It's a fun test and I suppose one more data point, but actually pretty useless as any kind of genuine comparison of the two keyboards. It's "VB3 1965 B3" vs. "1957 B3 Viscount Model" -- very arbitrary, as each unit has multiple organ models to choose from. One could easily prefer one unit on that comparison, and then pick some different underlying models, and prefer the other. Plus there's all kinds of things you can't get a sense of in that demo, like percussion, click, etc. Plus most of us looking for a tiny module are not going to be playing it through a 3300.

[Doerfler]

Plus most of us looking for a tiny module are not going to be playing it through a 3300.

 

well, there is that.

[Al Coda]

Crumar Mojo Classic

 

... catched my eye recently.

 

I appreciate they go all DSP now.

Wished it had more preset memory locations than four only, but possibly can live w/ that because of the very attractive price for a dual manual clone.

Not many audio demos and vids up to now, but I know how VB3-2 sounds.

 

 

A.C.

[Delaware Dave]

To be fair, the Legend EXP does one thing (organ) while the Gemini offers a couple of dozen of top notch instruments; I would expect the Gemini to cost more.

and the new Mojo Desktop will get a bit closer to Legend pricing (losing those other instruments, but gaining the built-in drawbars, etc.).

 

Here is a Mojo vs. a Legend through a 3300. All drawbars out. Read all comments, The consensus seems to be that the Mojo is the preferred sound.

It's a fun test and I suppose one more data point, but actually pretty useless as any kind of genuine comparison of the two keyboards. It's "VB3 1965 B3" vs. "1957 B3 Viscount Model" -- very arbitrary, as each unit has multiple organ models to choose from. One could easily prefer one unit on that comparison, and then pick some different underlying models, and prefer the other. Plus there's all kinds of things you can't get a sense of in that demo, like percussion, click, etc. Plus most of us looking for a tiny module are not going to be playing it through a 3300.

 

So then Scott, how were you going to do your comparison, the point of this whole post? You said if someone had the model but didnt want to send it, then you asked for audio files. Which model will they send you? How would you control the comparisons to get them on an equal basis? Depending on the method of the recording, model settings, drawbars settings, EQ your test is nearly as arbitrary as the one I pointed to. You have no idea how many users actually use a leslie, or a Vent, or a Motion Sound or something else. There are Hammond users that don't even use percussion and could care less about leakage or key click. You don't even use C/V and for me it is an important element to the sound. Delroy was trying to capture the element of the basic tone run through the same leslie speaker, to eliminate the leslie variable.

[Delaware Dave]

Plus most of us looking for a tiny module are not going to be playing it through a 3300.

I still run my Voce and the Gemini through my Motion Sound Low Pro/Pro3T in my studio.

[Delaware Dave]

Crumar Mojo Classic

 

... catched my eye recently.

 

I appreciate they go all DSP now.

Wished it had more preset memory locations than four only, but possibly can live w/ that because of the very attractive price for a dual manual clone.

Not many audio demos and vids up to now, but I know how VB3-2 sounds.

 

 

A.C.

There were initial rumblings of the unit not having an 11 pin out on the classic but Guido has this coming:

 

11 pin adapter

[mate stubb]

To be fair, the Legend EXP does one thing (organ) while the Gemini offers a couple of dozen of top notch instruments; I would expect the Gemini to cost more.

and the new Mojo Desktop will get a bit closer to Legend pricing (losing those other instruments, but gaining the built-in drawbars, etc.).

 

Here is a Mojo vs. a Legend through a 3300. All drawbars out. Read all comments, The consensus seems to be that the Mojo is the preferred sound.

It's a fun test and I suppose one more data point, but actually pretty useless as any kind of genuine comparison of the two keyboards. It's "VB3 1965 B3" vs. "1957 B3 Viscount Model" -- very arbitrary, as each unit has multiple organ models to choose from. One could easily prefer one unit on that comparison, and then pick some different underlying models, and prefer the other. Plus there's all kinds of things you can't get a sense of in that demo, like percussion, click, etc. Plus most of us looking for a tiny module are not going to be playing it through a 3300.

 

So then Scott, how were you going to do your comparison, the point of this whole post? You said if some one had the model but didnt want to send it, then you asked for audio files. Which model will they send you? How would you control the comparisons to get them on an equal basis? Depending on the method of the recording, model settings, drawbars settings, EQ your test is nearly as arbitrary as the one I pointed to. You have no idea how many users actually use a leslie, or a Vent, or a Motion Sound or something else. There are Hammond users that don't even use percussion and could care less about leakage or key click. You don't even use C/V and for me it is an important element to the sound. Delroy was trying to capture the element of the basic tone run through the same leslie speaker, to eliminate the leslie variable.

 

And that my friends is why a clone shootout is unsatisfying for all concerned.

 

When you spend hours and hours setting one up and conducting it (I've done a couple in my time) you end up cutting corners because the variables are so vast. Do you set each clone up as identically as possible to try to make them sound alike while only changing one variable at a time? Do you tweak each instrument to sound its best instead? Whose idea of "best" is correct then? Do you set the vibrato deeper for later consoles or lighter for earlier ones? Do you test all the different parameters of click levels, crosstalk, percussion, loudness robbing, etc? External leslie or internal sim?

 

I can tell you that you can drive yourself almost mad trying to keep fresh ears doing all this - and then be asked to go back and redo it when you fail to include

[AnotherScott]

So then Scott, how were you going to do your comparison, the point of this whole post? You said if some one had the model but didnt want to send it, then you asked for audio files. Which model will they send you? How would you control the comparisons to get them on an equal basis? Depending on the method of the recording, model settings, drawbars settings, EQ your test is nearly as arbitrary as the one I pointed to. You have no idea how many users actually use a leslie, or a Vent, or a Motion Sound or something else. There are Hammond users that don't even use percussion and could care less about leakage or key click. You don't even use C/V and for me it is an important element to the sound.

Saying I might not be able to do much better (which as you'll see I agree is arguably correct) is still not a rationale for saying that that facebook demo is in any way sufficient to tell you which module is better. It's possible that both tests will suck, but by demonstrating a wider range of capabilities, mine might just suck a little less. ;-) Just because the more attributes that are demonstrated, the more you may be able to increase the likelihood of someone knowing which they'll like better, at least in certain respects, compared to something that demonstrates fewer attributes.

 

As I said, my asking for audio files is a distant second choice option for me, better than nothing, but I'd much rather be able to play with the boards themselves, especially to the extent that my goal is to try to get a certain sound. But still, much of what you mention would be covered, as it was in another similar demo I did. Yes, I tell them which drawbar settings to use, among other things. I don't use (or ask anyone to use) any EQ on any of them. Method of recording is simple Line Out into their DAW or other audio recording app, optionally also through a Vent if they have one, with settings I'd provide just to keep all Vent demos consistent with each other. Etc.

 

As for which model I would test (or ask someone to send me), within reason, all of them. In terms of the fundamental organ model emulated, the Legend has 3 (a 30s model, a 50s model, a 70s model), Numa also has 3, while the Dexibell, VR09, and I believe XK5 only have one (though other ones can be created on the Hammond, as Jim Alfredson has done). This is not an impossible number to test, to cover all the basic characters of the organ. I'd also be open to the possibility that all the selections on a given organ may actually share a basic over-riding character, even if they are subtly different, and the importance of testing the different ones may not be so great, OR that one of the numerous models may clearly be the one that sounds closest to the particular sound I was going after and would be sufficient for my purposes. (Since that's subjective, that's only a possibility if I'm testing the organ myself. If someone were sending me a file of an organ that had three possibilities, I'd really want to hear all three.)

 

I wouldn't claim to provide organ demos that really let you determine that organ X is better than organ Y... as you suggest, there are too many variables in what people are looking for. However, I think they might be useful to help you determine which models you are more or less likely to prefer at least for the particular kinds of sound and attributes I choose to demonstrate (if those are of interest to you). And they do tell you something about how they sound relative to each other in some respects. Similarly, I'm not saying that that short facebook demo is useless, just that it is insufficient to tell you which of two units you'd prefer overall. I'd at least cover more different sounds and attributes than that facebook demo did, but I'd be hesitant to suggest that even that is likely to produce a clear winner. Really, all online demos have significant limitations, and I'd actually be surprised if any brief demo could prove conclusively to most people that any top tier clone is consistently better than some other top tier model, through the full range of variables and sonic qualities that people look for. We'll see, maybe.

[bill bosco]

with all the excellent clones currently out there , instead of an organ shoot out , i'd rather see some kind of non-leslie amplifier comparison for these instruments .i think

this might be the final frontier in the clone wars . for me at least , this has been the weak link

[Delaware Dave]

with all the excellent clones currently out there , instead of an organ shoot out , i'd rather see some kind of non-leslie amplifier comparison for these instruments .i think

this might be the final frontier in the clone wars . for me at least , this has been the weak link

This actually is a little more difficult. With a organ/leslie shootout you are trying to compare (or at least this is what I'd like to see) how the clone emulates the real deal, i.e. tonewheel organ and tube leslie. So for non-organ you've opened up the spectrum quite a bit; how does the amplifier/speaker (I'm assuming you are talking about a combo amp/speaker system like a PPA), sound for piano? or is it synth? electric piano? What might sound good for a digital electric piano that often got run through a guitar amp (back in the day) might not sound good for digital acoustic piano. Alot more variables to consider. and maybe the issue isn't the PPA, maybe the issue is the source digital hardware or the software driving the hardware into the PPA. Like I mentioned earlier, alot more variables to consider.

[bill bosco]

i meant , non-leslie amps for organ , there are a number of excellent clones along with some excellent leslie sims . it's a matter of finding a decent amp .there's alot of

amplifier solutions , but not too many of them would i consider great sounding , as far as organ is concerned .

[AnotherScott]

i meant , non-leslie amps for organ , there are a number of excellent clones along with some excellent leslie sims . it's a matter of finding a decent amp .there's alot of

amplifier solutions , but not too many of them would i consider great sounding , as far as organ is concerned .

I think it's pretty tough to do a useful amplifier comparison video. The amp has to be mic'd up, so now you've added the variables of the frequency response of the microphone and the characteristics of the room and the exact mic placement. And for organ, if you want to provide a sense of the spatiality of the rotary sim (if you're evaluating stereo amps), you'd need a binaural recording system (and the playback would have to be via headphones).

[Coker]

If this thread is still active and Anotherscott is still interested, I have been playing a Numa Organ 2 all afternoon while listening to Joey Defrancesco"s Michael Jackson album played through the same headphones. Studiologic has really nailed JD"s organ on this album; for C/V, Leslie at slow and fast, overdrive, keyclick, and (on this album) the 88800000 I could not tell ANY difference between my board and Joey"s. Technical capability was vastly different, of course, but I could repeat Joey"s phrases and tell NO difference in sound.

[AnotherScott]

The Numa Organ 2 has one of the best rotary sims... it may indeed be my favorite in any board. Nothing's perfect, though. I remember in particular I didn't care for the leakage, which seemed bass heavy IIRC. But still, it's definitely a nice clonewheel.

[Doerfler]

That album was released around 2010, IIRC. Studiologic had released the signature "Joey DeFrancesco" Numa organ around that time also. Possibly he used the Numa for that recording.

[AnotherScott]

The Numa Organ 2 doesn't sound quite the same as the original (JD endorsed) Numa Organ. The main organ sound of the 2 is very similar, though has a lot more bottom on the 2. (I think foldback is being handled differently.) The rotary effect is quite different, and to my ears, much better on the 2, though I know a lot of people praised the original. I found the overdrive a bit better on the original, and the leakage quite a bit better.

[Mitch Towne]

That album was released around 2010, IIRC. Studiologic had released the signature "Joey DeFrancesco" Numa organ around that time also. Possibly he used the Numa for that recording.

 

That"s a real organ on that album.

[pinkfloydcramer]

Plus most of us looking for a tiny module are not going to be playing it through a 3300.

I still run my Voce and the Gemini through my Motion Sound Low Pro/Pro3T in my studio.

.

 

Don't have the 3300 but I definitely enjoy running my HX3 through a 145, with a Hammond XK3 for a controller.

[Doerfler]

That album was released around 2010, IIRC. Studiologic had released the signature "Joey DeFrancesco" Numa organ around that time also. Possibly he used the Numa for that recording.

 

That"s a real organ on that album.

 

I would have hoped so. He does record with a Nord Stage 2 for AP and EP sounds sometimes, so I was curious.

[LX88]

I have the Viscount Legend solo and an original Numa 1.

 

I got beat up pretty good back in 2011 when I got the Numa...on these pages....but I still contend that bit it is one of the better clones...at least for what I like.

 

It has very good CV and a very good Leslie sim. The sim doesn't mess with the percussion like some and there is no attempt to simulate a miked cabinet

Ergonomically I like it better than the Legend.

 

I still have never seen the XK5. I would probably buy a console at that price.

[AnotherScott]

I got beat up pretty good back in 2011 when I got the Numa...on these pages....but I still contend that bit it is one of the better clones...at least for what I like.

I like the Numa 1 as well... actually among my favorites for its "artifacts", i.e. key click, overdrive, and leakage. It's strong where a lot of boards are weak, for those who look for a "dirtier" sound.

[JohnDoe]

I got beat up pretty good back in 2011 when I got the Numa...on these pages....but I still contend that bit it is one of the better clones...at least for what I like.

I like the Numa 1 as well... actually among my favorites for its "artifacts", i.e. key click, overdrive, and leakage. It's strong where a lot of boards are weak, for those who look for a "dirtier" sound.

 

+1!