KB Sounds-Chasing the Dream

[ProfD]

A recurring theme or thread on this forum is getting that sound whether it is a vintage synth preset, Herbie's Rhodes sound or some other KB recording.

 

The most obvious solution would be to cop the original instrument(s). Of course, as the price of "vintage" gear shoots to the moon, it becomes impratical especially for a sound or two that may still be elusive. We already know that every Rhodes doesn't sound alike.

 

However, a huge part of the sound one hears especially in a recording is the signal chain i.e. musician, instrument, pedals, outboard gear (EQ, compressor, reverb, delay), mixing console, tape machine, recording engineer, date, time, location, etc.

 

To my ears, every [insert manufacturer here] KB instrument sounds the same when it leaves the factory and shows up in the music store. IOW, I have yet to hear a significant variation beween two Nord Stage 3s.

 

But, I'm willing to bet that if Herbie Hancock sat down and played a Rhodes sound on a SV-1, Nord Stage or Kronos, he would sound like...Herbie Hancock.

 

I doubt there was anything special about the Rhodes Herbie used back in the 70s. But, I'm certain that Herbie has always been special. Same goes for others with a signature voice.

 

Maybe there is some sense of satisfaction to be gained from having a particular sound from [insert favorite instrument or musician here]. Admittedly, I am not that muscian. I love EP sounds in general.

 

Also, I've never been interested in playing or sounding like someone else either. I do not have musical heroes. But, my lofty goal is for Herbie Hancock or Stevie Wonder to hear me play and smile.

 

As you're reading this if the thought crosses your mind that ProfD is some cocky or arrogant dude...let it go. I'm really not and this isn't about me. Just my perspective or 2 cents as a musician.

 

I know there are musicians old and young alike who will benefit from reading this thread. The message is meant for those who might be questioning and/or struggling with their sound or musical identity.

 

Your favorite musician has or had their sound which really comes from within them. The instrument was just a means to and end. Find your sound. Be original and creative with the tools available.

[Song80s]

It is almost totally subjective how a musician finds their groove and keeps it year after year.

 

the gear required is a marriage partner. Its a long term relationship

as keyboards [ the 2 boards I have] are very deep. plus my recording

platform and available sound palette is large.

 

that said, where my ongoing groove is, is mostly different from everyone here.

 

I have found it, hit it, smack it around every day, and record it routinely for

some years. Its all there and I also enjoy curating older material.

[jejefunkyman]

Interesting perspective ;-) I see nothing wrong to try to figure out what one's favorite musician is using and doing to get his sound. Part of the learning process is to try to imitate others, although is pretty clear that sooner or later, you'll find your original tone and style. I've played and recorded for 10 years my SV1 with great satisfaction, and I always loved its sounds. But when I hear a recording with a very nice EP sound, I can prevent myself from trying to figure out what's behind. Especially for Rhodes sounds, as it is so versatile depending on the model used, the way it is prepared, the effects applied to it, and so on. So it's always good to go deeper in the analysis IMO. Just for curiosity, for knowledge itself, and also maybe to get some ideas about technics to try for one's own setup. But it's just my perspective ;-)

[Docbop]

I think players get too hung up on chasing a sound or using it as excuse to buy more gear when the people listening don't care and even other players hearing them live don't pay much more attention then the non-musician listeners. Especially coming from the guitar world seeing player spending more time on gear than practicing playing the song or the musician they are trying to study. They can tell you everything about gear, but little about approach or who they listen to. Worse most these people have great gear that they've little time experimenting and learning all that the instrument can do, they scan the internet for video on how to get sound and stop. Because when you're on the gig people will be more impressed when you nail a part with all the feeling and notes and won't care your sound.

 

Basically I just wish players would spend more time focusing on playing than what they play on.

 

Okay, okay I'll hop off my soapbox.

[jejefunkyman]

Well I"m surely not that kind of guy ð± But ok I get it, no more question on Herbie"s tones on this forum ðð!!!

[ProfD]

I see nothing wrong to try to figure out what one's favorite musician is using and doing to get his sound. Part of the learning process is to try to imitate others, although is pretty clear that sooner or later, you'll find your original tone and style.

It is absoutely essential to study and imitate others in growing as a musician. I *hope* finding one's original tone and style is the end goal.

 

I think players get too hung up on chasing a sound or using it as excuse to buy more gear...

 

Worse most these people have great gear that they've little time experimenting and learning all that the instrument can do...

 

Basically I just wish players would spend more time focusing on playing than what they play on...

Bingo. Wish that I had written so succinctly.

 

Well I"m surely not that kind of guy ð± But ok I get it, no more question on Herbie"s tones on this forum ðð!!!

Nah mayne. The forum exists to ask questions. The folks here are very helpful.

[timwat]

In a few cases, it may be that a muso is dissatisfied because their reach exceeds their grasp - they're inspired by what XXX recorded or YYY's catalog, it touches them deeply. And they want to say something like that. A pathway that seems reasonable is to go purchase the exact same gear. That's not exclusive to keyboard players - or signature model basses and guitars would never command a premium. Play what they play, sound like them.

 

Except, as you've pointed out - it's the artist, not the tools.

 

I'm guessing we all walk that path for a while - just part of growing up as a musician.

 

Some folks are led to a branch off that path. Often it's because someone points us to that fork in the road; that's how it was for me.

 

We are led to consider that there's more to "why they sound like that" than the gear, or the patch, or the way they use that knob or lever. Some folks are led to the 'you need to study theory' path. And that's not a bad journey, but that's a road to drive, not a destination. Others are led to the 'you gotta take the same drugs they took' path; that movie often doesn't end well.

 

Occasionally, one of the greats is willing to say, "You gotta have your heart broken by a woman, and you gotta have grown up in the Black church." - which is a paraphrase of how Stevie responded IIRC. Herbie once talked about getting out and living a life, so you'd have something to "speak" about in the first place.

 

FWIW, I was persuaded a while ago by some older thinkers to consider art as a vehicle for self-expression. I play because I have things I want to say about life and pain and joy and loss and heartbreak and hope and love and longing - in ways only I can say them. So I chose a genre and started studying and learning and trying and growing.

 

And all of life is really about that, IMHO. I live my life out loud as a vehicle to say things about this gift I was given, in ways only I can say them. So I love my wife and I teach my students about business and life and I helped plant two churches and I raised two very fine young men and I have a big white dog and I care for my aged mom and I coach and consult business leaders and I play some music - all to live "my voice" in the world, for whoever is bothering to watch. And if nothing else, so my wife knows she was loved and my boys will remember what their dad thought was important about how to be a man.

[MathOfInsects]

Well said as always, Prof.

 

Funny enough, when it comes to recording my own stuff, all my interest is in how NOT to sound like others.

 

I seem to have no trouble not sounding like Herbie or Stevie, however. Alas.

[GovernorSilver]

On another forum when I was researching the Behringer Pro-1, some people admitted the use of the Pro-1 on the Upstairs at Eric's album by Yaz was a reason for buying, and assumed that I also wanted those tones.

 

I bought it because it appealed to me as a relatively simple to use monosynth with a good sound, that happened to be on discount. I could always try to dial up the bass and lead tones for "Situation" but that's time that could instead go towards exploring other ideas.

 

One sound that I do try to chase once in a while is the "Flashlight" bass tone, but I don't want it badly enough to buy a vintage Model D or even a clone. I tried emulating

on my Pro-1 for fun. I don't think the sound was all that close but I enjoyed playing with it.

[CowboyNQ]

Great topic. In the 1980"s I was a regular reader of Guitar Player magazine and the topic of 'finding your own voice' and what that really meant was often put to the featured artists. I always found their different perspectives interesting. So too here in the more live and lively world of KB Corner!

[bfields]

I admire timwat's perspective. For me I'm afraid music is mostly self-entertainment.

 

Trying to nail a sound using what I have at hand can be an entertaining brainteaser. Trying to nail a sound by shopping is a seductive idea that mainly causes me to regret all the time I spent shopping.

 

Mostly though it's actually (trying to) play that's my highest entertainment value.

[drawback]

I believe this may be the ultimate case in point. I haven't forgotten it since the day it was aired.

 

[David Emm]

I've certainly used real-close patches to play a few Emersonian or T-Dream sections, but I've ultimately veered away from the immediately recognizable. I'm strange enough on my own. My dream was to have a decent piano, a pipe organ and a few synths. I've had that in the extreme for years now and things like Chromaphone have been solid additions from new realms. I've always had music burbling in the back of my mind, pushing aside the voices that tell me to whack various public figures in the head with wrought iron. I doubt I'm the first player to amuse a crowd with an old TV theme played on a full swell pipe organ setting, but I've always been the first to do it in my sector.

 

You shouldn't try to emulate your heroes as much as reverse-engineer how they did it so you can better your own game. Its been interesting to see what I discarded as much as what I embraced. I give added gold stars for huge, inspiring splashes such as Michael Boddicker's work with Randy Newman. When your head snaps around and you look at the speaker as if that could explain it, you've just been blessed with a sprinkle of space cadet dust.

[KuruPrionz]

ProfD, you speak the truth. It is the singer, not the song and the player not the instrument.

 

Many years back, just for fun at practice, the other guitarist and I swapped gear. I played on his rig and he played on mine. Mind you, at that point he had a Strat that he kept in the middle pickup, a Fender tube amp with an Altec speaker and a couple of pedals. I had a vintage Gretsch hollowbody that I kept on the neck pickup, a Music Man amp with a Celestion speaker and different pedals. Not the same stuff or the same sound.

 

And I sounded just like me while he sounded just like him. Both the bassist and the drummer were sort of dumbfounded but I expected it to happen. We could have gigged like that or changed completely to other gear and still the same result.

I don't worry about it much, have been switching gear around all of my life because it's fun. Some things stay because it feels good to play them, not because they have a special sound that cannot be duplicated.

 

And, even if it could, so what?

[The Real MC]

Not every synthesizer that leaves the factory is going to sound the same. Anyone who has owned a vintage Oberheim - OBXa or older - knows that they don't sound the same from day to day, much less when they left the factory.

 

Those old beasts had component drift that impacted their sound. Sure you can store patches in OBX/Xa. But the charging caps on the CEM3310 envelope generators and the filters are going to drift from day to day. The patch you stored days ago are going to sound slightly different.

 

Case of point is the "Tom Sawyer" intro rezz I programmed into my OB-X. Same instrument they used on the song. It turns out "that sound" is dependent on the DRIFT ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY. See, the OB-X isn't PERFECT. The CEM3310 EGs on the voicecards are never the same, and the filter cutoffs are never the same. Day-to-day drift. Put the Tom Sawyer patch in UNISON MODE with ALL VOICECARDS FIRING ON A SINGLE NOTE, and THAT'S how that GRIND is accomplished - IF THE DRIFT IS OPTIMAL. Play the same patch a week later when drift is different, and it doesn't grind like it used to.

 

Sometimes imperfections in the instrument are the key to nailing a certain sound.

[eric]

Great thread, ProfD. I agree with these points and have spent a lot of time over the years chasing gear for specific sounds. I"ve also found my voice with particular sounds, in particular Hammond and CP80 sounds that are my 'go to' for many settings.

 

There"s that saying 'a poor carpenter blames his tools' which is very applicable here. I"m also a hobbyist carpenter and have chased tools there as well, LOL.

 

Last week I was watching the Sting documentary Bring on the Night and Kenny Kirkland got so much mileage out of basic DX7 presets. What a great player. Seeing this made me miss having a DX7, though if I got one I am sure I"d wish for a Montage within moments.

[nursers]

 

Last week I was watching the Sting documentary Bring on the Night and Kenny Kirkland got so much mileage out of basic DX7 presets. What a great player. Seeing this made me miss having a DX7, though if I got one I am sure I"d wish for a Montage within moments.

 

I can vouch for this - I picked up a DX7 this year and realised pretty damn quickly how much I preferred my MODX7

[SteveCoscia]

The instrument was just a means to and end. Find your sound. Be original and creative with the tools available.

Profound statement. The tools available in the 1970s weren't the best, but what I could afford. Tony Banks (Genesis), John Evans (Jethro Tull), Max Middleton (Jeff Beck) and Elton John were rock influences. Thank goodness these masters recorded what they did because their playing was a guiding light. Having someone to emulate kept me reaching.

 

And just for the record, Tony Banks got more value from the ProSoloist than anyone back then.

[ProfD]

Not every synthesizer that leaves the factory is going to sound the same.

 

Case of point is the "Tom Sawyer" intro rezz I programmed into my OB-X. Same instrument they used on the song.

 

Sometimes imperfections in the instrument are the key to nailing a certain sound.

I do not believe synthesizers manufactured today suffer from the same imperfections as the electromechanical KBs and vintage synthesizers of the past.

 

IMO, the "Tom Sawyer" sound is iconic because it was played on a hit record.

[MathOfInsects]

The tools available in the 1970s weren't the best, but what I could afford.

 

I always remind students that those poor deprived people in the past were using the cutting edge technology of their time, just as we are for ours. They weren't all sitting around bemoaning their bad luck that the Vent didn't exist yet. They were early-adopting the era's coolest technology (however you define that term) and using it to produce sounds that made them feel lucky and superior to the poor deprived people of THEIR past--and so on back as far as the expanse of time, and so forward that way too, when we will be the poor saps stuck with Vents.