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Synchronise a daw to a click track allergic drummer


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I am looking for a solution to synchronise some kind of loops/backing track and a real drummer.

The drummer does not have a lot of experience, so she cannot really follows a click track.

 

The idea is for live performances, with a big deal of improvisation.

 

So i am looking to a solution able to extract the beat from an audio channel and synchronise some kind of DAW/Sequencer to the drummer.

 

Any software/hardware/synth solution is considered; i know the MODX should be able to do it (anybody tried ?), and Ableton Live 11 is advertised as able to do it.

 

Any other solution ?

 

Maurizio

Nord Wave 2, Nord Electro 6D 61,, Rameau upright,  Hammond Pro44H Melodica.

Too many Arturia, NI and AAS plugins

http://www.barbogio.org/

 

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Well, you could have the loops be the groups clock - just sending it to everyone"s monitor and have her keep time to the loops - which is typically easier for rhythmically inexperienced people than playing to just a click. Maybe your loops hold it together with placement of bass drum and snare and she plays with it.

 

Honestly, even if she was given a pad to hit quarter notes on as the timing guide for the tempo (some daws allow for tap tempo live? I bet it"s somewhere in the manual). It could potentially be so jerky feeling everyone would dislike it more than playing to a loose drummer.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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This is an extremely complex topic.

 

I am currently working with a singer/songwriter who has a solid strum on guitar, plays her songs consistently the same and has interesting tempo changes that serve the song.

One of her songs has been a work in progress, she plays the verses consistently at 117 bpm and the choruses at 123 bpm. That's how she feels it and in the context of the story it works very well.

 

I tried mapping it. A disaster not to be repeated. It makes her profoundly unhappy to attempt to adhere, despite her intuitive precision without guidance.

 

The ideal solution would be to put together an ensemble and rehearse the song live until everybody has it down, then record it. Due to current Covid restrictions (which I understand and respect) and budget constraints, that option is not possible. I do know some great talent who could cut the track that way if it were possible otherwise. It's not.

 

We would have to rent a space also, at this moment my upstairs neighbor is vacuuming her carpets and it sounds like a lawn tractor eating a chainsaw. This happens every day but not always at the same time. Mood breaker beyond any doubt. Another budget item that is not available.

 

The only way this will get done in our current situation is to record her playing it live the way she knows it and does it. Then I will have to decide if it stands on it's own and/or try to lock into what she is doing with other instrumentation.

I can always nudge something later in the DAW if I keep any additional parts simple. I feel this is the only viable option at this juncture.

 

I haven't heard your drummer so I can't provide a perspective. If the music is more important and you need a better drummer for the recording, get one if you can. If there are "politics" or other considerations that prevent it, just do the best you can and move on. Attempts to impose your desire for consistency on somebody who isn't currently capable of meeting your standards will cause nothing but grief.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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In a few minutes of searching I only found references to old products that are discontinued: the Kahler "Human Clock" and software called "InTime" from a seemingly-defunct company called Circular Logic:

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/circular-logic-intime

 

Here's a Kahler unit I see for sale - but it doesn't work! - https://reverb.com/item/6349227-kahler-human-clock-rack-unit-rare-and-vintage

 

From your description of the situation, my advice would be to get a different drummer and save your sanity! I suspect that particular remedy is off the table though. Good luck. You are in for some pain.

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This is an interesting human-machine interface topic. It seems as if something like interactive tap tempo as mentioned above might be the least painful way to gently nudge the drummer back on track if you got good at resyncing the tempo every so often. Not great, but better than diverging into a train wreck.

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

-Mark Twain

 

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Tap tempo in logic.

I"ve used it to set tempo with quarter notes, and I"ve used it too follow a midi track I played freely to create a tempo track.

But I haven"t tried it live with a drummer hitting quartet notes on a midi pad.

 

Logic does this in real-time as it "listens" to a beat? Or are you (or both of us) misunderstanding Maurizio's question? Digital Performer (along with any major-player DAW I assume) lets you create a tempo track by tapping along to a freely-recorded performance â a previously recorded freely-recorded performance! Unless I misunderstood, this situation is not that; it's about a real-time performance where the sequence has to follow a live drummer â and not a live drummer tapping a steady quarter-note, but a drummer in a typical performance which I would assume involves fills, ghost notes, etc. Not an easy task and very error-prone, I would think.

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It's close to impossible to sync properly to a given song, unless you have more information than drum beats. If you can presume a tight drummer playing two different tempos only, you still don't know if that first snare hit is slow, syncopated or part of a delay in a reggae beat. Non-real time is better, provided you midi or trigger measurement is accurate and 7ou can make certain assumptions.

 

T

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Tap tempo in logic.

I"ve used it to set tempo with quarter notes, and I"ve used it too follow a midi track I played freely to create a tempo track.

But I haven"t tried it live with a drummer hitting quartet notes on a midi pad.

 

Logic does this in real-time as it "listens" to a beat? Or are you (or both of us) misunderstanding Maurizio's question? Digital Performer (along with any major-player DAW I assume) lets you create a tempo track by tapping along to a freely-recorded performance â a previously recorded freely-recorded performance! Unless I misunderstood, this situation is not that; it's about a real-time performance where the sequence has to follow a live drummer â and not a live drummer tapping a steady quarter-note, but a drummer in a typical performance which I would assume involves fills, ghost notes, etc. Not an easy task and very error-prone, I would think.

 

Correct I have not tried or dug into if this can be real time in the DAWs I am familiar with. As you suggest, yes I"ve used it with a freely recorded MIDI part tapping quarter notes. And Logic is able to make a tempo map of that, changing the grid to match the free play. I am almost certain there is software that will follow a conductor tapping beat - I"m just not sure which.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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It's close to impossible to sync properly to a given song, unless you have more information than drum beats. If you can presume a tight drummer playing two different tempos only, you still don't know if that first snare hit is slow, syncopated or part of a delay in a reggae beat. Non-real time is better, provided you midi or trigger measurement is accurate and 7ou can make certain assumptions.

 

T

 

I with audio tracks this would of course be crap. However, I"m certain MIDI would be able to adjust to incoming tempo data (from one person tapping to beat) and adjust tempo of play back in real time. We see metronomes do this on iOS, and I know in musical theater they have canned midi orchestrations that follow conductor.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Maurizio, I"ve been in similar situations and as good as the technology is becoming, to my knowledge there is no magic technological solution. This is partly because your problem has at least one facet which is musical and one facet that is human. The musical facet is that in the great majority of popular music arrangements, the drummer"s hi-hat is one of the busiest instruments in the mix. Any sudden adjustments to tempo are magnified. (There are exceptions to this generalization of course as in r&b or funk styles you might have 8th notes in the hi hat and 16th notes on a guitar string.) The second facet is that no technology solution is 100% on time in the way that humans tend to adjust. This may not be a significant problem if you drummer has excellent time, or if the DAW arrangements are rare or isolated. However, the more of your band"s arrangements are given to the DAW, the more problems you will have, based on my experience. The good news is that most drummers today realize that modern music requires this type of training and they practice with a click, just as they practice with a metronome. To me, it"s a warning red light when your drummer speaks of an inability to follow a click. Much of the time, it is the drummer who determines how great or lame a band will sound.

 

The easy answer is to say 'swap the drummer out for the good of the band'. It"s not one of the solutions you are looking for. However because human beings are complex and you want the band to succeed, please do consider that course of action.

 

Tap Tempo and Beat Bug have been ok for me, in limited portions of a setlist. http://beatbug.net

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The new Ableton does it quite well, apparently:

 

[video:youtube]

 

I bought Ableton 10 at the beginning of the pandemic and was determined to learn it. Unfortunately, the design and interface really turns me off. I know it's a deep app with crazy live capabilities, but I just can't get myself to look at it longer than 15 minutes.

It's not a clone, it's a Suzuki.
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I use a similar technique in a Queen medley: We play radio gaga and there is a synth bass arpeggio.

 

I use a Nord Wave 2 for this. There is no preset that has the "low-low-mid-mid-high-high-mid-mid" pattern

So use the "low-mid-high-low" at half the frequency and a delay with the frequency.

arpeggiator and delay are all synced to the main-clock.

In our medley the drums start solo in Radio Gaga. I tap the tempo that the drummer is playing and sync every beat by repressing the key.

Sometime I need to re-tap halfway.

 

Using audio to sync might be tricky, no experience with that.

Best way is to learn the drummer to get used to playing with a click track.

We also use this and I make the tracks. Playing with the sound of the click (cow-bell or irritating click) and the timing (every count or double timing for slower songs) could help.

Some drummers are better at this, but everyone can learn it.

 

Good luck!

Nord Piano 5-73, Nord Stage 3
Author of QSheets: The fastest lead sheet viewer in the world that also plays Audio Files and send Program Changes!
https://qsheets.eriknie.synology.me/

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If the drummer can"t play to a click, I don"t know if I"d trust her to lead a sequence with tap tempo.

 

Even with Logic"s great tempo mapping import feature, it got totally confused by a loud tambourine hit slightly off... annoying enough at home, but, I wouldn"t risk that live!

 

Is it possible for you to tap tempo etc to bring the sequences/delays back in line if they start going out?

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Your drummer has to want to do this if he wants to help the band to get better.

 

I played over 10 years in a covers band with a drummer who did not keep time well. And he HATED it when our band rehearsed together with a loud click. But when we did this, it would make our band sound better even during the following rehearsal, even if the click was not played at the next rehearsal. If our previous drummer had been willing to put up with the discomfort of occasional group band rehearsals being done to a click, we could have been a better band. But he wasn't willing to do this. Eventually he left our band for other reasons.

 

For the last 4 years we have played with a wonderful new drummer who keeps excellent time (my son confided to me "I don't know why he plays with us"). I have made audio recordings of our band since 2008. Some of the recordings with the previous drummer I can't listen to anymore because the tempo is all over the place. In his defense, the previous drummer really knew how to play a ballad - he had a great touch.

 

I noticed you said your singer plays the choruses faster. Our band does a lot of 3 part vocal harmonies, and the excitement and energy this brings to the choruses causes us to pick up the tempo there. We did not realize this until we rehearsed with a loud click as a band, and noticed the metronome "seem to slow down during the choruses". We were shocked by the degree to which this happened. This was not the fault of our previous drummer - I think it was more the rest of the band who was causing this. Maybe this fact can help you sell the idea of using the click to your drummer, that using a click is intended to help solve tempo drift problems not just caused by the drummer, but by the whole band.

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The only way this will get done in our current situation is to record her playing it live the way she knows it and does it. Then I will have to decide if it stands on it's own and/or try to lock into what she is doing with other instrumentation.

 

That's how I handle it. I map the DAW (cakewalk) to the guitarists track if adding midi drums. I build the track from there. Mapping the tempo to the guitarists transients is tedious but works well.

When I'm recording myself, I usually use a drum loop from EZ drummer, then replace it. I'm not nearly as good with a metronome click track than I am with following a full drum pattern.

Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12

Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell

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Sometimes it's the sheer, never-ending, full-bore, skull-crushing CLICK CLICK CLICK of a click track that makes it difficult for a drummer to play in time. Years (decades?) ago I heard of a drummer who liked to use a conga pattern as a "consistent tempo track" - much easier to play along to. If your drummer can't play to a "click", could she play to a conga track?

 

Cheers, Mike.

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It reminds me of things music teachers have said... "You just have to do it" and that's what you need to tell the drummer. I would say she is psyching herself out and say she can't do it. It just part of learning to play no one like playing to a click at first, but you just have to do it enough to get used to it. Things that helped me was practicing to a metronome for everything so you get used to it and that you will vary some. It wasn't intentional at first but I got to where I'd leave my metronome on all day and could hear it even when in other room doing something. I started just singing bass lines and drum beats to the sound of the click. Still today I hear a click or steady beat of anything and will start singing bass lines or drum patterns. It's all about just getting comfortable hearing a click and even getting to point of then playing with the click and laying back or pushing with the click. She's never going to get it if she runs from it.
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Good luck dealing with that backing track situation. I played Wont Get Fooled Again in my cover band and it was the only song in our entire roster where the drummer had to follow the keyboard and it was a constant source of frustration. Sure when we nailed it, it was really spectacular, but getting out of sync on a bad day really drained the momentum out of practice and you rarely put a high risk song into a live set.

 

The drummer was great, but making the keyboard exactly loud enough for him to hear clearly but not loud enough to overpower the mix was hard enough in the consistent practice space, but sorting that out at a gig was damn near impossible.

Keyboards: Nord Electro 6D 73, Korg SV-1 88, Minilogue XD, Yamaha YPG-625

Bonus: Boss RC-3 Loopstation

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For those a bit used to doing sessions with sensitivity about accuracy, even the click itself can be a bit of a problem, like if you take a clave or high hat or ride cymbal and play it mechanically, it touches the room acoustics wrong, which can upset other players, and make a drummer want to compensate for the effect. Midi and digital: so much worse, there's no way you can easily get a midi instrument to play phase accurate even for hitting jembe beats, which is no good for decent percussion, and the digital, well, uhm, it's going to be never (I really mean never, unless you know what I'm talkin gabout) going to resonate and rhythm connect to a normal listening space except maybe for a single frequency, or at a certain volume for a specific speaker, which is a big difference with a drummer playing a basic metronome beat.

 

T.V

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I noticed you said your singer plays the choruses faster. Our band does a lot of 3 part vocal harmonies, and the excitement and energy this brings to the choruses causes us to pick up the tempo there. We did not realize this until we rehearsed with a loud click as a band, and noticed the metronome "seem to slow down during the choruses".

 

This is neither uncommon nor is it "wrong", we've all heard TONS of great music that has subtle or not so subtle but VERY INTENTIONAL tempo shifts, to serve the song and generate tension and release.

What IS wrong is flatlining a tempo to a click track so it will be "correct", that may work for some music but when you have 3 singers as above all wanting the song to speed up a bit in a part - that is an intuitive and correct response to making the song have more impact.

 

My favorite example is Midnight Rambler - the version on Get Your Ya Ya's Out by the Rolling Stones. A masterpiece of tempo change, try to imagine it flatlined to a click track. It would totally suck.

 

We've gotten sucked into using click tracks because it is the simplest and most convenient way to track songs on a DAW by oneself. It's also one of the surefire ways to suck all the fun, love and power out of a piece of music.

Visual communication can work very well, we don't realize we are doing it but watching the drummer or the strummer can provide powerful visual cues as to the current tempo at that instant.

 

Every symphony or orchestral performance I have ever seen had a conductor in the line of site of all musicians, waving one of their two wands to provide guidance for the tempo. We don't hear the conductor but we may not want to hear how the piece would sound without them "playing" their part. Cheers, Kuru

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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I noticed you said your singer plays the choruses faster. Our band does a lot of 3 part vocal harmonies, and the excitement and energy this brings to the choruses causes us to pick up the tempo there. We did not realize this until we rehearsed with a loud click as a band, and noticed the metronome "seem to slow down during the choruses".

 

This is neither uncommon nor is it "wrong", we've all heard TONS of great music that has subtle or not so subtle but VERY INTENTIONAL tempo shifts, to serve the song and generate tension and release.

What IS wrong is flatlining a tempo to a click track so it will be "correct", that may work for some music but when you have 3 singers as above all wanting the song to speed up a bit in a part - that is an intuitive and correct response to making the song have more impact.

 

My favorite example is Midnight Rambler - the version on Get Your Ya Ya's Out by the Rolling Stones. A masterpiece of tempo change, try to imagine it flatlined to a click track. It would totally suck.

 

We've gotten sucked into using click tracks because it is the simplest and most convenient way to track songs on a DAW by oneself. It's also one of the surefire ways to suck all the fun, love and power out of a piece of music.

Visual communication can work very well, we don't realize we are doing it but watching the drummer or the strummer can provide powerful visual cues as to the current tempo at that instant.

 

Every symphony or orchestral performance I have ever seen had a conductor in the line of site of all musicians, waving one of their two wands to provide guidance for the tempo. We don't hear the conductor but we may not want to hear how the piece would sound without them "playing" their part. Cheers, Kuru

 

Sure, but as you elude to, there is a current trend in popular music to always be produced to the grid, and if that"s what you"re covering - I have no idea if it is in this case, but if that"s what you"re doing - then yeah, you play to the grid. In which case it"s almost better to have the kick and snare be sequenced and the percussionist plays other parts around it that give it life.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Sorry but there's a big difference between "pushing" a feel to be more on top of a beat in order to generate more tension or excitement on a chorus, for instance â and musicians that can't keep steady time.

 

I never heard of drummers like Steve Gadd, Ferrone, JR Robinson or other a-list studio players, complaining about having to play to a click â and they somehow managed to get some decent-feeling music made.

 

Years ago I sat in a Broadway pit for the Twyla Tharp musical "Come Fly With me" listening to a band of the top Broadway players swing their asses off on the original Nelson Riddle Sinatra arrangements â to a click.

 

It's every player's ability to listen to the ensemble and know to push & pull against the beat cooperatively to enhance the groove, that separates the great players from the not-so-great. Tempos may vary but if everyone is together and knows what a feel requires to sound good, it will most likely sound good â whether there's a click or not.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that if the "fun, love and power" is "sucked out of a piece of music" it's probably not the fault of a click â it's the musicians listening to it.

 

If the drummer referenced in Maurizio's OP has good time and technique it might be possible to somehow slave a sequencer to her playing. There have been a few possible options described in this thread. But his description of her as "not having a lot of experience" and unable to follow a click track does not bode well (which has also been pointed out a few times here! :) )

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Sorry but there's a big difference between "pushing" a feel to be more on top of a beat in order to generate more tension or excitement on a chorus, for instance â and musicians that can't keep steady time.

 

I never heard of drummers like Steve Gadd, Ferrone, JR Robinson or other a-list studio players, complaining about having to play to a click â and they somehow managed to get some decent-feeling music made.

 

Years ago I sat in a Broadway pit for the Twyla Tharp musical "Come Fly With me" listening to a band of the top Broadway players swing their asses off on the original Nelson Riddle Sinatra arrangements â to a click.

 

It's every player's ability to listen to the ensemble and know to push & pull against the beat cooperatively to enhance the groove, that separates the great players from the not-so-great. Tempos may vary but if everyone is together and knows what a feel requires to sound good, it will most likely sound good â whether there's a click or not.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that if the "fun, love and power" is "sucked out of a piece of music" it's probably not the fault of a click â it's the musicians listening to it.

 

If the drummer referenced in Maurizio's OP has good time and technique it might be possible to somehow slave a sequencer to her playing. There have been a few possible options described in this thread. But his description of her as "not having a lot of experience" and unable to follow a click track does not bode well (which has also been pointed out a few times here! :) )

 

Again, different circumstances, different tier of players. The forum of course has pros, semi pros, hobbyists and beginners - plenty of people where playing with friends supersedes musicianship. No worries. Music is for everyone and even pros say yes to a jam with a childhood friend or a benefit or freebie now and again.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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My post was not commentary on any forumite's musical abilities or lack thereof â I know I lack a fair number myself! I was just responding to the notion that the presense of a click in and of itself is a groove-killer. Where there's a click, there's usually a very specific reason for using it that relates to the situation â whether it be a DAW production, a movie score that has musical hit points, staying in synch to a prerecorded track, etc. In general however, the ability to maintain a steady tempo should not depend on whether a click is present or not. I catch myself rushing sometimes, which is why I like to practice playing to sequences I've recorded â sequences that have steady time (but aren't gridded).
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Good luck dealing with that backing track situation. I played Wont Get Fooled Again in my cover band and it was the only song in our entire roster where the drummer had to follow the keyboard and it was a constant source of frustration. Sure when we nailed it, it was really spectacular, but getting out of sync on a bad day really drained the momentum out of practice and you rarely put a high risk song into a live set.

 

The drummer was great, but making the keyboard exactly loud enough for him to hear clearly but not loud enough to overpower the mix was hard enough in the consistent practice space, but sorting that out at a gig was damn near impossible.

 

When we've pulled that out, I was using my iKMultimedia B3X, and playing it thru my Arturia ARP2600V for the "slice"

 

Now then, my drummer uses ears so he can hear.... What he did was count it off with 2 measures (8 stick clicks) and I had tap tempo setup on the Arturia and it always worked to keep us in -sync

David

Gig Rig:Casio Privia PX-5S | Yamaha MODX+ 6 | MacBook Pro 14" M1| Mainstage

 

 

 

 

 

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Speaking of tempo and click.....

 

We do a few songs where I have to fly in a string part that is specific to the section of the song.

 

Just like in my Won't Get Fooled Again example: I use tap tempo to control the "playback" tempo in Mainstage where the track lives.

David

Gig Rig:Casio Privia PX-5S | Yamaha MODX+ 6 | MacBook Pro 14" M1| Mainstage

 

 

 

 

 

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