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Taking the emotion out of buying a new piano


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Since I got back to playing classical music this year's round of lessons I'm at a cross roads. I have an old upright that has been with me since my mom passed in 2019. I had it moved twice and is now in my new house. It's been pretty apparent I can't practice Sonatina's on a CP88 which I have been doing. It messes me up when I go to the music school and have to perform in front of my teacher on a Steinway. It just doesn't work. I could practice on the 100 year old upright but at this point I kind of need a grand piano to get to the next level. I have some money to spend but the old upright is kind of bound to me because I learned to play on it. It was a neighbors that gave it to my mother in the early 70s when the moved and I just started playing on it. It needs a lot of work besides tuning. The pins are loose, the hammers are bad and the only thing I can do is tune it. It just doesn't respond like I need it to. Previously I was practicing everyday on a grand piano in the nursing school lounge which was next to where I was working. I got laid off so it's not an option to practice at the university anymore.

 

These old uprights aren't worth much as my tuner said there were over 300 manufactures at the beginning of the 20th century. Even if I renovated it the returns wouldn't justify the cost, Now pianos are cheap, even grands he said, and not to worry too much about it and that "we can find something in your price range". I guess my point is that I want to buy something that helps me put my best foot forward as I know people search a long time for the right instrument. Music schools will visit Steinway and go through a long process choosing a grand for example. With all this said it would be kind of hard to see something go that was part of my development as a musician but I have to be able to move forward. That said I don't feel that way about digital keyboards?

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There are definitely things that are in fine playable condition for the price of a digital keyboard. You can find a Kohler and Cambell baby grand for $3-3.5K most weeks here in the Bay Area on Craigslist. I had one of these for a few years. It looked great, played fine and played like the real acoustic grand that it was. It is not as nice as my Kawai RX-7 (which I learned about from a member here), but you could certainly prepare literature on it. It is true. Very few want pianos. If you want one, you can find one, and it will be much better than any digital keyboard. A digital is better than a beat up out of tune old piano. But an average quality grand in good mechanical condition will do what you need and bring joy.
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Tell me about it. After cleaning out my parents' house I got the Kawai upright piano that I learned to play on. I brought it back to my place where I enjoyed it, really good piano. But after getting unemployed I had to move to a cheaper rental house and I did not have room for the piano. It costs $400 to move that piano; I had to be ready to move anywhere in the country to a new job, and it wasn't practical to ship the piano to my new location. So I put the piano on consignment. Letting go of that piano was hard but I am a practical man not a sentimental one.

 

At least the Kawai is a model that is in demand and is worth some bucks, and it was in clean condition. When I move to my next job I will buy the house I plan to retire in (I'm TIRED of moving!!!), and I will buy a piano then.

 

I do agree that it is better to practice classical on a real piano. Too many DPs have stiff action and frankly they don't play like the real thing. The Yamaha CP stage pianos are stiff too. The only EP I played that felt and responded like a real piano is my ARP 16 voice EP, it sounds like crap but great action. I'd like to develop a MIDI interface for it but that's way down the list of projects.

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The problem with owning a piano is today's job mobility. Few people stay in the same house over their career, most people don't want a piano because they don't want to drag it around from place to place.

 

This is a great point. It isn't just the economics of buying and maintaining a piano. It is also the reality that most people don't live in the same house for decades at a time anymore.

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The original upright I had when I took lessons (about 50 years old, 50 years ago) got me through classical piano training. My piano teacher was close to 80 years old but taught me the right way. I was able to play classical music on it, no problemo. It also is the heaviest damn thing I have ever encountered, makes my hammond seem like a breeze to move. That piano now is with my niece; my mother purchased a grand piano (A.B. Chase) about 40 years ago which now sits in my house. The action is sluggish and requires alot of effort to play; I really don't enjoy playing it at all. I would go back to the old upright in a heartbeat.... I played classical music on that piano infinitely better than my current baby grand. Just sayin .....

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to tie in everything said already, I currently own a 1980 52" Kawai upright. Don't own grand/baby grand because I don't have the room. I downsized houses 8 years ago, got really tired of the expense/upkeep of a large house. In previous house I had a 1960 Winter baby grand piano. It had it's own room, with hardwood floors.

The Kawai upright plays much nicer than the baby grand, of couse it doesn't "sing" as well. So you never know until you play them, just like with a digital.

Kawai and Yamaha uprights are not inexpensive.

100 year old uprights are worthless.

Jason, check these guys out https://rickjonespianos.com/

I have purchased 3 pianos from them and have recommended them to several other players. If nothing else should give you a guideline to what rebuilt pianos sell for.

Good luck

:nopity:
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Playing sonatinas...very cool. Last week I hit a milestone: I finished the book of sonatinas I have been working on (Schirmers Selected Sonatinas Vol I). I learned and played thru all of them. Not necessarily beautifully played, but at least I played every note cover to cover. I'm still working on the beautiful part - probably will be for the next few years or so. Last time I looked, Amazon did not have any copies of Selected Sonatinas Vol II, so instead I got a copy of Clementi's Op 36 - six of Clementi's Sonatinas, including the very frequently played and loved Op 36, No 1 in C major. My next project is to work thru that book. I'm excited to learn there is here at Keyboard Korner a fellow traveler on the road classical music excellence. Hail and Well Met!

 

Now I learned all these sonatinas on my trusty Roland RD-700 NX. But I had to play them for my teacher on this ancient and very well-worn upright. The keys on that old guy had seemingly no resistance, and I never felt comfortable playing it. I sometimes think my Roland has ruined me for playing acoustic instruments. The Roland is so "tight": there's no wiggle in those keys, it's got dynamics for days, and it's always perfectly in tune. Pretty much every acoustic except well-maintained grands feel disappointing to me.

 

That said, I have no emotional attachment to my DP. I always have a sense of wonder that guitarists all seem to customize their guitars: adjust the action; change the bridge; different strings; file down the frets; etc. DPs, we play them, and the buy a new one when we can afford to. The only customization I do to my DPs is a piece of black tape to cover up the logo on the back of it. I do a little software adjustment to my favorite patches, but nothing else.

 

My sister has the "family" piano that sat in our childhood house that we both learned on. She did a fair amount of work to make it playable (it sat for a number of years unplayed and unmaintained before she rescued it.) It's a 1920 vintage Steinway "parlor" grand - around 6 ft or so. It plays better now than when we played it as kids

 

My guess is if you search, you will find an instrument perfect for you. Now would be a good time to strike up a relationship with the local piano tech. S/he can help your search and advise on the suitability of an instrument for yourself. Post pics when you make your decision.

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The upright I learned to play on was part of my grandparents' estate. It was made in the 1930s, and like many pianos of that era, it was a jobber â a factory put together a piano from parts from other manufacturers and stuck their name on it. It had excellent tone but had to be tuned down a step by the 70's. When my folks downsized, I had an option to take it, but by then it was in the shape Outcaster describes. We gave it away to a rehab center that was part of a summer camp facility. That suited everyone involved and giving it away in that sense, it was easy to part with.

 

When we relocated into a house in Victoria after many years in cramped condos in Vancouver, I was able to buy a very good condition small grand â a 1977 Kawai KG-2C in Mid-Century Maple. It sounded great on the salesroom floor but since moving it to the house, I've hardly played it... for a few reasons.

 

First, it's loud. Too loud. Doesn't matter what I've done to improve the environment or technically the piano itself. Because of that, I don't play dynamically or with too much emotion. So the tone never gets to open up.

 

Secondly, I'm a digital guy. I've said before that a lot of us have been spoiled by playing virtually the best pianos in the world, perfectly in tune, through the pristine environment of headphones. And in private. No one hears my mistakes, repeated passages, endless tweaks. And I can hit the keys to any level my ears can stand. I've played grand pianos all my life, and the times I've heard quality like that, I could count on one hand.

 

Much as I love the look of my grand piano, I flirt with the idea of some day gutting the Kawai and turning it into a home for a controller. Or just selling it and upgrading to an Avant Grand. The emotional part would be a) the guilt, or b) convincing my wife, family and friends that it really is the thing to do. I'm not sure anyone would understand.

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Since your goal is primarily as a student, don't exclude the better upright pianos (less space and perhaps less costly). As others have said, there's usually a few decent grands and uprights being offered on Craigslist.

 

Finally, I have been quite impressed with the upscale digital hybrids with real acoustic grand actions and digital back ends, e.g. AvantGrand and similar. You easily forget you're playing a digital instrument, they sound amazing and never, ever go out of tune.

 

Lots of good choices out there -- but it takes some time to sort through all the options. Enjoy the ride!

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to tie in everything said already, I currently own a 1980 52" Kawai upright. Don't own grand/baby grand because I don't have the room. I downsized houses 8 years ago, got really tired of the expense/upkeep of a large house. In previous house I had a 1960 Winter baby grand piano. It had it's own room, with hardwood floors.

The Kawai upright plays much nicer than the baby grand, of couse it doesn't "sing" as well. So you never know until you play them, just like with a digital.

Kawai and Yamaha uprights are not inexpensive.

100 year old uprights are worthless.

Jason, check these guys out https://rickjonespianos.com/

I have purchased 3 pianos from them and have recommended them to several other players. If nothing else should give you a guideline to what rebuilt pianos sell for.

Good luck

 

Thanks. I watch Rick"s YouTube Channel but never met anyone who has done business with them. Good to know someone that recommends them!

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I was able to buy a very good condition small grand â a 1977 Kawai KG-2C in Mid-Century Maple. It sounded great on the salesroom floor but since moving it to the house, I've hardly played it... for a few reasons.

it's loud. Too loud. Doesn't matter what I've done to improve the environment or technically the piano itself. Because of that, I don't play dynamically or with too much emotion. So the tone never gets to open up.

 

I have the same situation with my upright. As an aside, I sold my vintage Gretch drum kit 15 years ago for the same reason. Bought a Hartke kit with a Roland brain. Living with a family limits our options for sure.

:nopity:
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You probably already know this, but just in case, but there's a larger piano-centric forum over at PianoWorld forums. Their AP and DP forums have a lot to offer.

 

It was very interesting hearing the various tales of the piano folks grew up playing. I grew up playing an old upright, don't know the name, that was great fun to play, and my mom would initiate sing-around-the-piano sessions, which is probably why I asked for lessons at 7 years old!

 

I just wonder what it'd feel like to my older, more experienced hands. As a kid I didn't notice the action hardly at all, whereas now I'm somewhat picky.

 

There was a recent thread over at PianoWorld Forums where the guy had about $16k to spend, already had a NU1?, a digital with a real piano action, and he could spend as much on a hybrid as a real acoustic grand. Several people spoke up and said there's just no substitute for the real thing, no matter how good the hybrid is. Of course not everyone has the luxury of playing acoustic piano! There's no headphones socket.

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I still practice on my Grandfather's 1923 Bush and Lane upright grand that he purchased in 1926. Inherited it when he passed away in 1996. Still sounds great and still has the original ivory keys! Sure I'd like to own a grand but don't have the room for it, too many Hammond organs in the house lol.

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I was also in the process of looking for a grand piano before the pandemic hit. Take your time, look around a lot, try as many as possible, and once you find one you like, ask a piano tech you trust to check it out if it is used. My teacher told me once you find a grand piano you like, it's like a long term relationship. I am pretty set on a used Steinway Model M, L, or O, so my search will continue once this pandemic is over.
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It can be really difficult - and more than anything else, it's usually because you associate the instrument with a person you cared about.

 

As far as looking for a new piano, here are three words of advice. Avoid Pearl River.

 

That is all.

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When I was a kid we had a Yamaha C3 in our living room for a while. It wasn't ours; it was on loan from friends of the family who were out of the country.

 

I did some piano-shopping a few years ago, and every time I sat down at a C3 I'd say "ah, that's what a piano's supposed to sound like." I guess I imprinted.

 

I had to drop the piano-buying plan when my son was born, but maybe I should pick it up again now that he's older.... I think I'd go for an upright, though, it'd fit my space better.

 

There's a *lot* of choices in between a Steinway grand and a broken-down 100-year-old upright.

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Interesting replies. I don't agree about replacing an acoustic with a digital piano unless it's an issue of space.

 

In my case, if I played piano it would also be an issue of volume. I have a condo in a multi unit complex.

We are all respectful of each other's space in terms of volume. I have a recording studio, I will record some vocals sometimes on days when neighbors are at work.

I never record drums and I could only play acoustic piano during certain times as well.

 

If I wanted to play when ever I wanted to play I would need something that plugged into headphones. And that is exactly what I do - electronic drums, solid body electric guitars and basses, a small MIDI controller keyboard.

I can make all the sound or noise I want, inside my own head.

 

Quite a few of us are probably in similar situations.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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I think your mom would want you to have a great instrument. Let the upright go and do what you need to do to take your playing to the next level.

 

As for grands, it sounds like you have a good tech that will steer you in the right direction. There are a lot of great choices out there these days. I like Yamahas but I'm also really impressed with Steinway's lower line, Boston. They sound really good and are easy to tune and the quality control is great.

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When we relocated into a house in Victoria after many years in cramped condos in Vancouver, I was able to buy a very good condition small grand â a 1977 Kawai KG-2C in Mid-Century Maple. It sounded great on the salesroom floor but since moving it to the house, I've hardly played it... for a few reasons.

First, it's loud. Too loud. Doesn't matter what I've done to improve the environment or technically the piano itself. Because of that, I don't play dynamically or with too much emotion. So the tone never gets to open up.

 

Voicing and if needed fabric diluted softener should help with that.

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In the last two years I got rid of the 16th birthday gifted 1888 upright that I loved, bought a grand piano for a teaching studio, then closed the studio and moved the piano on long-term-loan to a local recording studio, as I don't have room for it at home.

 

Pianos are tough.

 

I will say that, like most other objects, once you get rid of the upright, you'll be fine. It's not the not-having it that's the hard part, it's the thinking-about-getting-rid-of-it. Once that piano is out of the house, you'll be glad it's gone. Surely you have other mementos/memories of your mom or your childhood that are more practical to keep yet just as meaningful?

 

I hear you, though, on wanting a real piano for real practice. Dynamic expression is wildly different on a grand than any DP. A few years back when I took some lessons with a local prof, I too felt very frustrated making the transition from my keyboard at home (then a Roland RD700-gx, which had an action I still love), and his Steinway in his studio.

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Trying to sell a nice piano takes the patience of a saint. We tried to sell father's Yamaha C7. A gorgeous grand piano that was meticulously maintained and tuned since the late 70s. Nothing but crazy low ball offers because everyone knows, nobody wants pianos anymore.

BS. We ended up donating it to Orchestra Hall and it sits on their main stage. Still have a C6 left. I'm moving the Steinway in my house in the spring. I just know that piano is going to be loud AF in my home. You'll be able to hear it from the street. But I'm ready. All the great piano samples I have in my Kronos & Mac just don't compare to playing the real thing.

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?Since I got back to playing classical music this year's round of lessons I'm at a cross roads. I have an old upright that has been with me since my mom passed in 2019.

 

I could practice on the 100 year old upright but at this point I kind of need a grand piano to get to the next level. I have some money to spend but the old upright is kind of bound to me because I learned to play on it.

 

These old uprights aren't worth much as my tuner said there were over 300 manufactures at the beginning of the 20th century. Even if I renovated it the returns wouldn't justify the cost...

 

With all this said it would be kind of hard to see something go that was part of my development as a musician but I have to be able to move forward.

 

That said I don't feel that way about digital keyboards?

Brotha Jason, cherish the memories of your mom in your heart and mind. Take a picture of the 100 year upright and let it go. Find an acoustic piano that you will enjoy playing for many years.

 

The digital piano is a great alternative to the real deal especially for its portability, quiet-playing/practice and non-acoustic piano sounds. IOW, you can justify having both digital and acoustic pianos.

 

I'm not a classically trained pianist but I had a total blast playing acoustic pianos at the Rick Jones Pianos spot that brotha Dave D mentioned above. :thu:

 

If I ever have a change of heart and/or decide to buy an acoustic piano, I would start at a place like Rick Jones Pianos and lay hands on as many as I could until the FTEC (Finger to Ear Connection) lined up. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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I had to practically beg the music store to take my old vertical off my hands (for zero bucks) when I bought my baby grand.

 

It was the piano my now-deceased parents bought my brother and me to learn on. Mum and dad still smilingly observe me when I practice - albeit from within the frame of their 1969 wedding-day photograph.

 

I don"t think they"re troubled by the upgrade.

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I think your mom would want you to have a great instrument. Let the upright go and do what you need to do to take your playing to the next level.

 

As for grands, it sounds like you have a good tech that will steer you in the right direction. There are a lot of great choices out there these days. I like Yamahas but I'm also really impressed with Steinway's lower line, Boston. They sound really good and are easy to tune and the quality control is great.

 

Jim I tried a 5 foot Yamaha today. It was OK actually but I wanted a slighlity heavier action:

 

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/grand_pianos/gb1k/gb1k-gc-series.html

 

Right now the COVID thing has managed to put back orders on Yamaha pianos. They had a Steinway Model M for 35,000 (which I wouldn't by anyway) There was an Baldwin Concert grand and an old rebuilt Weber there. The rest of the pianos were U-1 or U-3 pianos. There was Samick there as well. I could get a deal on one of the Yamaha's if I wanted as I know the owner of the dealer. He had customers looking for Leslie speakers so the tech in their Syracuse branch contacted me. I am going to look at a Baldwin tomorrow.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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When I first saw the title of the thread, I immediately thought "How in the hell could you manage that??" I've had an emotional attachment to everything I've bought, even the unplayable crap that I ultimately nailed to the wall as decoration. I think the depth of the dialogue makes my point. Sweating over a Baldwin baby grand was not much different from sweating over a MiniMoog. When you're dazzled, you're dazzled. :love:

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  The absent-mindedness, I've got that licked."
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Brotha Jason, cherish the memories of your mom in your heart and mind. Take a picture of the 100 year upright and let it go. Find an acoustic piano that you will enjoy playing for many years.

 

The digital piano is a great alternative to the real deal especially for its portability, quiet-playing/practice and non-acoustic piano sounds. IOW, you can justify having both digital and acoustic pianos.

 

Agree with Prof. Let it go, take a picture of it, cherish the memory and move on. If it's not in an enjoyable, playable condition it's not serving any function except for emotional attachment.

 

I'd check both CL and FB Market Place for someone locally downsizing their home and looking to sell their grand. You have to be very dedicated and persistent about you're search though.

 

Personally I wouldn't go below a C3 length. The sound in all the registers gets compromised severely. Playing the C1, I can see why that was a less then satisfying experience.

 

Piano Mart is still a good source too. Stores can be good but you'll pay a premium. If you have a tech you trust to check it out before a private party purchase, you don't need that store motto of, "we stand behind what we sell". Of course a store can get a trade in or buy outright from a private owner looking to sell their piano quickly, getting whatever they can without having to worry about an ad, plus having people over to their home. So it is good to check a store you trust from time to time. You'll never know if a gem may appear.

 

A C3 would be excellent for you, ideally under 10 years old but depending on how much wear on the hammers it has and how well its been looked after, you could extend out even 5-10 years from that and still get a solid piano.

 

Forget newer Baldwins, they are horrible these days. Definitely a YES on an earlier era restored, or '70s model still in good shape, 7' SD-10, if you can find a good one, like here.

 

 

An early era restored Mason-Hamlin AA would be very nice. Something like this:

 

 

Like with Baldwins, even the new Mason BBs I've played in recent years are not good, and that's being kind. ;)

 

Take your time, buy once and choose wisely. ;)

 

The Mason and Hamlins were made right here in East Rochester at one point. I will be looking at an older one at some point Dave.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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