dazzjazz Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 Hi all, I"m considering investing more time and money into virtual instruments, and realise I would need a good non-weighted controller to get the most out of them. I"m envisaging being able to controller a good number of synth parameters to minimise having to grab the mouse. I don"t have a great deal of space left in my studio, so I"m thinking no thing bigger than 49 keys. Thanks in advance. Darren Quote www.dazzjazz.com PhD in Jazz Organ Improvisation. BMus (Hons) Jazz Piano. my YouTube is Jazz Organ Bites 1961 A100.Leslie 45 & 122. MAG P-2 Organ. Kawai K300J. Yamaha CP4. Moog Matriarch. KIWI-8P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed A. Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 https://nektartech.com/panorama-t4-t6-controller/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Mike Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 The Arturia Keylabs are worth a look. I just got a mkII 61 and like the quality. Comes with the Analog Lab library as well, which is a nice plus. Quote . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 https://nektartech.com/panorama-t4-t6-controller/ Ed. Do you have this one yourself? It"s been ok my list for a while. What"s your review? Quote Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delaware Dave Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 If you can squeeze a 61 key controller in there: https://m-audio.com/products/view/code-61-black Quote 57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn Delaware Dave Exit93band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Mike Metlay Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 https://nektartech.com/panorama-t4-t6-controller/ Ed. Do you have this one yourself? It"s been ok my list for a while. What"s your review? I reviewed the Panorama P4 when I was at the magazine. Really good build quality and nice action, but depending on what DAW you're using, the integration that is its main strong point can be iffy. A good friend got a T4 for use with Ableton Live and sent it back. Quote Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1 clicky!: more about me ~ my radio station (and my fam) ~ my local tribe ~ my day job ~ my book ~ my music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Mike Metlay Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 +1 for Arturia due to build quality. If I needed a go-to controller that I'd have to live with for a long while, I would absolutely get a Keylab 49 MkII. It's among the most expensive of these options but worth it IMO. The Keylab 49 Essential saves you some money if you don't need aftertouch or a full 16-pad grid. If you want something with reasonable controls and a pretty good action for nearly no money, the Samson Graphite 49 is an amazing value. I give the Novation SL MkIII very high marks for build and features. I would use one myself exclusively, were it not for their absolutely MADDENING habit of having switchable banks for 8 faders but NOT having a 9th fader that doesn't change with bank switching. I still have no clue how they expect you to grab master volume in a hurry while working. Madness, utter madness. Novation also makes the Launchkey 49 (optimized for Ableton Live but works nicely with all DAWs) and the Impulse 49, which is previous-generation (so it doesn't look as sexy) but is a great overall controller with action that feels really good to my fingers. Bizarrely, these two inexpensive keyboards have Master Volume 9th faders but the very expensive SLMkIII doesn't. Buh? I personally don't like the Native Instruments lineup. NKR works well but not every plug-in has it, and I don't like the build quality nearly as much. InMusic Brands sells competing controllers from three of its companies: Akai, Alesis, and M-Audio. Relatively affordable and each with different feature layout (MPC grid for Akai, XY pad for M-Audio, etc). I can't speak to current quality, but if you can find a used MPK49, they're built like a tank... but again, no flippin' 9th fader. I know nothing about the Nektar Impact keyboards, sorry. Nor the latest generation of Rolands. Quote Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1 clicky!: more about me ~ my radio station (and my fam) ~ my local tribe ~ my day job ~ my book ~ my music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawback Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 I've been looking at 49 key controllers for a good while. They narrow down considerably when I apply my needs: 1) decent action, synth or semi-weighted, but decent; 2) an expression pedal input (MUST have); 3) NINE sliders (most have 8) and if they do, preferably on the left side; 4) the fewer pads the better; 5) dedicated octave/transpose buttons 6) one peeve I have with a lot of these is that they waste space on the left side with wheels/sticks, sometimes placing the pads where your palm would be when using said wheels. Seems to me a 49 key controller should take up less width than a 61 with its controllers up top, but no. Are these designed by actual players? I've narrowed down my list to (no particular order because they each have things I don't like): M-Audio Axiom49 (v2, out of production); Novation Impulse 49; Roland A-500Pro; Arturia Keylab 49 MkII. What features would break the deal for YOU if missing, Darren? Quote ____________________________________ Rod Here for the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnchop Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 I would go for the Arturia in your situation, preferably the Keylab mk2 if you can swing it. The action is VERY synthy--springy and light--but it controls aftertouch really well and is just festooned with faders and knobs. I just purchased the Launchkey mk3 and wouldn't recommend it for general purpose VST control unless you're also heavy into Ableton. Nice synth action, but no aftertouch and no expression pedal input. Look out for reported quality issues with the M-Audio Code series, keybed flex among them. Nice featureset though, if you can get past the awkward drum pad placement. Try to touch the MPK249 before buying. I found it weirdly heavy. Also, the Roland A500 ... exists... but I would still spend the extra bucks for the Arturia. Quote I make software noises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed A. Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 https://nektartech.com/panorama-t4-t6-controller/ Ed. Do you have this one yourself? It"s been ok my list for a while. What"s your review? I have the T6, (61 note version). The keybed, controls and pads feel very good, IMO. The keybed doesn't require excessive pressure for aftertouch and it has a firm feel to the keys even though it's a synth action. But maybe a bit too firm for me, I like very light synth action keys. I'm thinking about the Arturia KeyLab 61 mkII, for the lighter keybed, but that's about twice the price of this. I use it with Logic Pro, and it maps Logic's instruments and controls easily. I'm not a fan of their Nektarine software that allows custom mapping of VST/AU plugins within a DAW, it's kind of awkward, but you don't need to use it if you don't want to. Another nice thing is it's got both expression and sustain pedal inputs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazzjazz Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 I reviewed the Panorama P4 when I was at the magazine. Really good build quality and nice action, but depending on what DAW you're using, the integration that is its main strong point can be iffy. A good friend got a T4 for use with Ableton Live and sent it back. I use Digital Performer and current VSTs are SonicCouture, Arturia and Trillian products. Can you elaborate as to integration issues. I don't plan on changing DAW - that would be too painful. Quote www.dazzjazz.com PhD in Jazz Organ Improvisation. BMus (Hons) Jazz Piano. my YouTube is Jazz Organ Bites 1961 A100.Leslie 45 & 122. MAG P-2 Organ. Kawai K300J. Yamaha CP4. Moog Matriarch. KIWI-8P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazzjazz Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 Hey Drawback, Our needs are aligned. I am highly critical of synth actions - most are total crap these days. The original DX7 had the best non-weighted action. Yamaha should just revive that and force it upon every other manufacturer via actual legislation!! yes, an expression pedal input would be nice. I'm not planning on using organ VSTs, so I'm not sure I need 9 faders. Ideally I'd like to have instant realtime control of a synth VSTs: Filter Cutoff Resonance Env Amount ADSR etc. Not sure I need pads - I'm somewhat new to this. Definitely need to call up patches on the fly. I've been looking at 49 key controllers for a good while. They narrow down considerably when I apply my needs: 1) decent action, synth or semi-weighted, but decent; 2) an expression pedal input (MUST have); 3) NINE sliders (most have 8) and if they do, preferably on the left side; 4) the fewer pads the better; 5) dedicated octave/transpose buttons 6) one peeve I have with a lot of these is that they waste space on the left side with wheels/sticks, sometimes placing the pads where your palm would be when using said wheels. Seems to me a 49 key controller should take up less width than a 61 with its controllers up top, but no. Are these designed by actual players? I've narrowed down my list to (no particular order because they each have things I don't like): M-Audio Axiom49 (v2, out of production); Novation Impulse 49; Roland A-500Pro; Arturia Keylab 49 MkII. What features would break the deal for YOU if missing, Darren? Quote www.dazzjazz.com PhD in Jazz Organ Improvisation. BMus (Hons) Jazz Piano. my YouTube is Jazz Organ Bites 1961 A100.Leslie 45 & 122. MAG P-2 Organ. Kawai K300J. Yamaha CP4. Moog Matriarch. KIWI-8P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Schmieder Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Word up on the Arturias, as I owned an earlier model and it had the best MIDI implementation of anything shy of the Moog Voyager, but the new cheaper series isn't up to snuff and uses a very different keybed with far fewer MIDI features. It's worth spending extra for the higher-end models. A few other brands have good builds and keybeds now and then, but not as consistently between revs as Arturia, so it takes more research and trial and error to find the good models from those vendors. Quote Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1, Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazzjazz Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 Thanks Mark. The 61-note Arturia sensibly has the mod/pitch wheels above the keys, so takes up less real estate. Think I will go play one and see if I dig the action. Quote www.dazzjazz.com PhD in Jazz Organ Improvisation. BMus (Hons) Jazz Piano. my YouTube is Jazz Organ Bites 1961 A100.Leslie 45 & 122. MAG P-2 Organ. Kawai K300J. Yamaha CP4. Moog Matriarch. KIWI-8P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Notation SL Mk2 feels very good. I assume the Mk3 is also good. Arturia Keylab are cool. Quote "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawback Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 I can vouch for Arturia. I had a Keylab MKII 88 and sold it, as I wasn't crazy about the TP100 action. But along the way I dealt with Arturia Support and they were top flight. Their free software bundle may be worth at least half the price of the controller to you. Their build quality IMO is the best in the world. But as Mark said, stay away from the lower-end Arturia Keylab "Essential." I've tried both boards in the music store and Keylab MKII is the one. Quote ____________________________________ Rod Here for the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docbop Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 I was looking for a 49-key MIDI controller earlier this year and didn't find any I like. Most the keybeds were either too mushy or they had narrower than normal keys. On a suggestion I got the Roland A-49 and it mainly collects dust now. The A-49 white keys a little smaller, but black keys are really small, narrow, and strange pivot point. Good luck finding something seems like all the brands are targeting beat makers more than keyboardists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUSSIEKEYS Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Our needs are aligned. I am highly critical of synth actions - most are total crap these days. The original DX7 had the best non-weighted action. Yamaha should just revive that and force it upon ........ Yep very true and i agree that manufacturers are going backwards on keybeds when their older keybeds played better than today offerings But keep in mind that the DX7 wasnt a cheap synth in its day so we are comparing these cheap keyboards to the wrong price point of what a DX7 would cost today with inflation But having said that if they had continued reusing that keybed in every synth keybed since the DX7 surely the economy of scale would reduce the costs of that long used keyboard to be able to use it in cheaper Yamaha keyboards for ever. Manufacturers just cant stop at changing things to keep joe punter coming back its why detroit changed details on cars every year and models every second year. Can never leave alone whats not broke. Unfortunately commercial evolution is feeling like de evolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJkeys Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 https://nektartech.com/panorama-t4-t6-controller/ Ed. Do you have this one yourself? It"s been ok my list for a while. What"s your review? I reviewed the Panorama P4 when I was at the magazine. Really good build quality and nice action, but depending on what DAW you're using, the integration that is its main strong point can be iffy. A good friend got a T4 for use with Ableton Live and sent it back. I have the T4 and use it with Studio One, maps really well. Keybed is pretty darn good at this price, as well as overall build quality.. Integration of course depends on your DAW- -dj Quote iMac i7 13.5.2 Studio One 5.5.2 Nord Stage 3 Nord Wave 2 Nektar T4 Drawmer DL 241 Focusrite ISA Two Focusrite Clarett 8 Pre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUSSIEKEYS Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 I was looking at controller a year or so ago to use as a live controller rather than for DAW use or soft synths. My biggest gripe is they are no longer tradtional midi controllers for live work or easily usable and not really suitable to use live for old time midi control (well for me), Why because they have difficult access to all storage slots or too few storage slots making quick changes live difficult or too limited as they dont have a 10 digit keypad or enough storage buttons. They really are only marketed to DAW use although they often tout great for live but i dont really feel that. Although Daz you are not chasing for live are you? The first time i learnt that midi controllers were changing for the worse was when i bought an M Audio Keystation pro. What a piece of crap. Pre internet for me so buying without knowledge as i was on my way to a family members wake which was near a keyboard shop (gotta cheer myself up hey). Dropped in and saw one for first time was impressed on price and all the controls my eyes were popping out of my head. So grabbed it before visiting the wake so my first impulse buy ever in my life..ever. it was cheap to start with and on a sale day whereit was close to wholesale price. Looked impressive and what a bargain price. Crap keybed with velocity all over the place and black notes that were so different to the whites youd think they were a new top tier keyboard on its own non related to the whites. And the board was not a live players controller really. Heck i still have a roland A80 and a viscount oberheim MC2000ex which are real controllers but alas too heavy for me to gig with so theres the rub of older controllers. Anyway i took the M Audio back exchanged it still crap went back third time and actualky tried out a few there and then till i found a useable one. Not perfect but closeish enough to say ok. Any way i never gigged with it and it sat around till i sold it to someone who was head over heels in love with it (he wanted it for an early DAW studio) He loved the action of this "best of the worse" i picked out but he wasnt a piano player so theres why they get away with crap keybeds. Luckily as i bought it nearly wholesale i got most of my money back as It was still heaps cheaper than a new one as they were still cuurent. This was the year i knew good keybeds no longer existed on low cost controllers and its been that way since with a few exceptions though many have overcome the velocity inconsitancy issues. They still are only suitable for DAW and soft synth use not easy acces patch changes. But then again im finding many keyboards now dont give a stuff Bout easily accessable patch changes including digital pianos which i think should be easily accessable. How can that roland FP10 and similsr DPs access sounds by hitting keynotes and not dedicated buttons are we going backwards towards the old boom chikka home keyboard days Just make a reasonable action keybed whether synth style as Daz wants or a hammer action as i wanted and put easily accessible program slots in so a live player can change patches or mixes easily. Thats not hard the alesis quadrasynths and QS synths did that easily they even used reasonable keybeds. They are better controllers than most so called controllers infact ive pulled my QS6.1 out to use as my controller keyboard or second tier keyboard as its bloody good live controller. I cant afford the yammy Yc61 i want as second tier (where in this instance id forgo a controller to have a combo instrument) so alesis to the rescue as all cheap controllers are just non starters for me with their patch accessabilty. Rant over on my upset at keybed action and patch accessabilty on modern keyboards ....phew i can talk ive tried to stop my tomes on here but stuff it these controllers anger me as they could have been great for both type of users. They miss the mark so often Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannyrichardson Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 If you really want land on 49 keys, I would suggest the Arturia Keylab 49 MK II. I gigged with this for about 6 months and the thing is a monster. I've also noticed that pretty much every website has spoken highly of it. https://keyboardkraze.com/arturia-keylab-mkii/ This review of it actually is spot on. It's built like a tank, yet still lightweight and the key-action is great. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBarker Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 I too would recommend the key lab. I have the Keylab88mk1 and it's fantastic. I also have an older keylab25 that I've almost never use, but it works fine. They've now split the line into the "Essentials" and the "mk2" (Pro) lines. Beyond more features and pedal inputs, the non-essential boards have better keybeds and higher quality control, so you probably would want go with a Mk2 if you can swing it! Quote Puck Funk! Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Tonewheel Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 Having been through a number of controllers, I can definitely vouch for the Arturia Keylab MkII. Well built, great feel, great features, plays well with software. Best controller I"ve owned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 https://keyboardkraze.com/arturia-keylab-mkii/ This review of it actually is spot on. It's built like a tank, yet still lightweight and the key-action is great. From that review: I have always been a fan of newer MIDI controllers as opposed to older ones because I have always had bad sync problems and connectivity issues with older ones. MIDI technology is getting better and better and it"s important that you"re using up to date controllers. So how has MIDI technology been getting better? I'm not talking about MPE or MIDI 2.0, but purely improvements in "sync" and "connectivity" on traditional 5-pin DIN MIDI. I've successfully connected 20-year old synths to modern ones with no issue - and that includes cheapo controllers. I dug out my old Roland PC180 earlier this year and it worked flawlessly. Cheers, Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docbop Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 So how has MIDI technology been getting better? I'm not talking about MPE or MIDI 2.0, but purely improvements in "sync" and "connectivity" on traditional 5-pin DIN MIDI. I've successfully connected 20-year old synths to modern ones with no issue - and that includes cheapo controllers. I dug out my old Roland PC180 earlier this year and it worked flawlessly. Cheers, Mike. My guess would be the chips and such have sped up making processing of the MIDI data more complete and less expensive to produce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazzjazz Posted November 26, 2020 Author Share Posted November 26, 2020 I have ordered a Native Instruments S61 - fabulous action! Quote www.dazzjazz.com PhD in Jazz Organ Improvisation. BMus (Hons) Jazz Piano. my YouTube is Jazz Organ Bites 1961 A100.Leslie 45 & 122. MAG P-2 Organ. Kawai K300J. Yamaha CP4. Moog Matriarch. KIWI-8P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docbop Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 Cool you joined the Blue Lights team, hope it works out great for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 My guess would be the chips and such have sped up making processing of the MIDI data more complete and less expensive to produce.I think for traditional DIN MIDI that's not the case. It's running at only 31.25kbps (iirc) and that doesn't require much processing power. There was some muttering in the early days of MIDI about how that was insufficient for tight timing and so on, but I don't think that's what the review was talking about. I suspect the sync/connectivity issues may refer to USB MIDI, which would make more sense. Cheers, Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docbop Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 The OP has his order in so hope he doesn't mind if I hijack the thread instead of starting a new one on the same topic. I just order Keyscape been wanting it for a long time, going to put it on an old computer in another room so need a MIDI controller. I want 88 keys and a piano like keybed, not that into all the controls but they could be handy when running Logic X Pro. The two controllers I've been thinking of are the M-Audio Hammer 88 or the NI S88. Which of those are most like a acoustic piano? Any others I should be considering? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 From what i've heard, "Keyscape" and "old computer" don't exactly go well together. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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