Organ Clones & Leslie Sims: Who's leading the digital race?

[Delaware Dave]

Hammond organ clone vs. real hammond organ? or...... Leslie simulator vs. real tube leslie?

 

I've heard hammond clones through a tube leslie vs. a real hammond through a tube leslie and the organ clone has gotten really close. Example:

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

I've also heard leslie sims vs. a real tube leslie and they are also very close: 2 examples:

 

 

[video:youtube]

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn7Lr_pHkM4&feature=emb_logo

 

So what's come closer in terms of realism?

[Doerfler]

Myself, I would prefer a clone through a leslie speaker than a Hammond organ through a leslie sim. This coming from a guy who, like you, owns a Hammond organ and a leslie and a clone and a external leslie simulator.

To your question, might come down to personal preference, and if not, my damaged hearing is not good enough to really tell what has come closer, if there is a way to tell.

[Delaware Dave]

For me the clones are much closer to a real organ than a leslie simulator is to a real tube leslie.

[AnotherScott]

In the Jim Alfredson demo, the 122 and Vent are quite close (easily distinguishable from the XB2 internal). A note from Jim's web site:

Here"s a special note of interest from Ventilator creator Guido Kirsch:

 

'Something to think about that most people have overlooked so far: The Ventilator doesn"t simulate the room where the the virtual leslie is in! This is intentional, since the room adds ambience when you play over an amp and hear the Ventilator from a distance â like a real leslie.

 

Over headphones or when hearing a recording of the direct line out, the sound can be too dry.

 

To have a fair comparison you would have to play the Ventilator over an adequate amp in the same room the leslie sits in and mike that up, to give the recording a 'room sound'. Alternatively a reverb processor with a small room setting might also work.'

I think the point Guido makes is important. In fact, the lack of room ambiance is really the only difference I can hear between the Ventilator and a real 122 in most circumstances.

They are close, but I think there is more to it than that. Some additional points for me:

 

1. While they are awfully close in a recording, in the actual room, I suspect the difference is more easily discernible. As has been discussed in other threads, it's one thing to reproduce the sound of a Leslie as you'd hear it on a recording or mic'd up through a PA in a full band live performance; it's something else to reproduce the effect of the hearing the organ directly from the Leslie in the room. (Which gets back to the Spacestation being a good playback device for this, to get closer to this effect than most, with a Vent+SS3 being a lot easier to move around than a 122.) Of course, the effect of a Leslie as it would sound on a recording is sometimes all you need, especially if you are, well, using it on a recording. Similarly, the sound of a Leslie through a PA is all you need to try to reproduce if ultimately you're putting it through a PA. Duplicating the unique experience of hearing it in the room is probably important mostly for just a few scenarios... personal living room satisfaction, playing in a small venue where the audience would normally be haring the organ only directly from the Leslie, or having it next to you on stage so you get that experience even if the audience is hearing it (almost) exclusively through the PA, so at least the player gets that extra experience, even if most of the audience does not.

 

2. The demo did not really demonstrate the grit and overdrive of a heavily pushed 122. The Vent is still one of the best emulators of that, but I expect we'd hear more of a difference between the Vent and the real thing if the demo had also included that instead of only a cleaner sound.

 

3. One of the most distinctive characteristics of the Leslie is the sound of the rotary speakers speeding up and slowing down during transitions... some held chords with transitions is something else I'd like to have heard in that demo that might have indicated some of the difference more clearly.

 

4. To the extent that, even in that demo, there is still a subtle difference, besides the possible contribution of some ambience, I wonder if some of that "last little bit" of difference could be improved by inserting a Lounsberry Tall and Fat AO-28 premp emulator between the organ and Vent.

 

At some point, I'm going to assemble what might be my ideal combination: HX3 module-->Lounsberry T&F-->Vent-->Spacestation. I'll drive it from my recently acquired Nord C1 (I had forgotten how much I like having a real double manual organ!) and a drawbar module, so I'll have one set of real drawbars (which is sufficient for me, but the C1 has enough panel space for two sets if preferred), as well as two sets of LED drawbutton controls (which, for preset use, should be able to even be programmable so that they will reflect the recalled HX3 presets as well). At 33 lbs, the C1 gives me possibly the lightest weight way to implement something like this, in case I ever actually do end up wanting to gig with it. I suspect this could meet or exceed even software implementations like B3X, etc.

[pinkfloydcramer]

*double post, sorry

[pinkfloydcramer]

For video #1 it's almost weird to hear that sound coming from a Roland synth. My HX3 sounds great but I don't have it dialed in quite like THAT, when using it with my 145. I guess it would be worth a try to pester the guy on YT for his settings. Great player and I love his sense of humor and creativity also.

[Losendoskeys]

More than happy with my SKX and original Vent.............it's down to the law of diminishing returns and ear response

[Delaware Dave]

On the Burn demo between 37 and 47 seconds (which is the real leslie) listen to the drum ramp up and down; then listen to the Burn's drum rotor simulation between 1:27 and 1:37. The characteristics of the two are different. The horns are also different but I think the drum is more 'different' than the horns are, which is interesting; the Motion Sound Pro 3T and the Leslie 2101 used a real horn with a simulated drum because they were able to get the drum simulation pretty close but not the horn, so they went with a mechanical horn, but the differences I hear with the BURN would suggest just the opposite. And the Gemini module the horn gets kind of squirrely in tremolo.

[AnotherScott]

the Motion Sound Pro 3T and the Leslie 2101 used a real horn with a simulated drum because they were able to get the drum simulation pretty close but not the horn

That's interesting, I assumed they took the approach that they did because the horn with its motor, enclosure, and amplification yielded a smaller, lighter box than would the bass speaker with ITS associated motor, enclosure, and amplification; and also, higher frequencies inherently have a more directional component than lower frequencies. So from all of that, I'd presume that the way to get the biggest amount of mechanical Leslie effect out of the smallest/lightest device would seem to mean, if you're going to have only one of the two be the mechanical component, you'd pick the high one.

[elif]

Base on my expereince developing a Leslie simulation from a set of impulse responses, and that sounds very much like a Ventilator, I think the Vent is about as good as one can expect from a two-channel simulation, though I think the overdrive could use some work.

 

A clone through a Kemper Profiler into a Vent might sound pretty good.

[Delaware Dave]

Base on my expereince developing a Leslie simulation from a set of impulse responses, and that sounds very much like a Ventilator, I think the Vent is about as good as one can expect from a two-channel simulation, though I think the overdrive could use some work.

 

A clone through a Kemper Profiler into a Vent might sound pretty good.

Interesting thoughts. I own both the BURN and the Vent. The Vent's OD doesn't use a real tube in the signal path while the BURN uses a tube (12AX7?). The distortion of both are different but I feel the Vent's distortion is more leslie-like than the BURN. The BURN however can achieve more growl than the Vent, but not necessarily leslie growl.

 

I still feel that the organ clones (from an organ perspective) are much closer to the B3 than the leslie sims are to a 122 or 147.

[ProfD]

I'm not an organist and have no business being in this thread but organ clone and Leslie sim tells me a facsimile will never be a carbon copy.

 

The best one can do is find a solution that gets "close enough" and play the h8ll out of it.

 

Part of the "magic" in the "sound" of an any instrument is predicated on who's playing it.

 

Back to the regularly scheduled programming...

[Sospiri]

Whilst it means a lot to the performer and maybe the other musicians around him, will Joe Public notice any salient difference between the real thing - a tonewheel Hammond and a Leslie - and a clone and a Vent? I suspect the answer to that is "no". So the older and less fit amongst the members here will opt for the most portable scenario when gigging. Let the young ones cart all that heavy gear around !!

[pinkfloydcramer]

[video:youtube]

 

Organ clones were already pretty good 5 years ago. This is a weekly blues jam I used to take part in, great band of blues heavy- hitters (guitar player was chosen to tour with BB King's road band after BB's death)..an excellent musician (wish I could say it was me) sitting in on my Hammond SK1 /original Vent combo. Alto 10" powered speaker carrying FOH. Recorded with Zoom Q2 camcorder. Enjoy!

[UnderGroundGr]

I have a Strymon Lex(for my synths and hammond clones) and i am very happy, it's an excellent leslie simulation pedal!

[area51recording]

At the end of the day, a lot of this is incremental, and it's STILL the player.....you could sit me at the controls of an absolutely MINT B3 and 122, and on the other side of the stage have Jim A or Joey D playing my lowly Electro 3 with its stock leslie sim, and I'll be packing my bags inside of 8 bars.......

[bjosko]

I agree to disagree.

For me, the important thing are that I like what I hear from my instrument.

A good sounding Hammond, clone whatever inspires my playing.

 

A funny sidestory, I moved my Hammond up in my living room, hadn"t room for my Leslie, so added a Vent, a stereo reverb pedal and sent it to my Spacestation with a little active Sub below. Loved that sound until ...

No reason to let the Leslie be alone, so in a forever ongoing process, I hooked up my Mojo 61 to my Leslie and was able to tame the high end of the Mojo. Now, that are my favorite.

Hopefully I will soon be ready with my Leslie breakout suitcase and bring the Mojo/Leslie combo to rehearsal with my band.

Just begging that it will be loud enough to cut through, I tried with my old Nord C1 into my Leslie many years ago, but it missed the balls from the Hammond and wasn"t up there in volume.

[Jim Alfredson]

The best Leslie sim on the market is the IK Multimedia Leslie plugin. I wish Hammond and IK would release that in physical form as a pedal. It is absolutely stunning.

 

The best Leslie sim in hardware is still the Vent. The overdrive is very good. Little known fact: Neo Instruments, the company that makes the Ventilator, also makes an overdrive pedal using that same algorithm called the Drive In. Its a fantastic sounding pedal especially on organ, EPs, synths. Unfortunately most clonewheels do not have an FX loop before their Leslie sims. But you could use it before another sim (say the Strymon or something) and achieve better overdrive.

 

The best clonewheel is the Hammond XK5. The multicontact system cannot be understated. It plays and reacts like a vintage Hammond. The sound is very, very good too. IK Multimedia's B-3X plugin is also stunning. I often use it for projects in my home studio. People send me tracks to play on and rather than miking up the Hammond, I just use the IK. AcousticSamples B5 is also really good.

 

That said, nothing beats the real deal even to this day. If I could haul around my 1954 C2 to every gig I would but of course that's just not feasible. So I make due with the next best thing, which is the XK5.

[Delaware Dave]

".. I wish Hammond and IK would release that in physical form as a pedal. It is absolutely stunning...

I wish that they would release the entire organ/leslie package in a midi module. The price bar for that has been set by Viscount and GSI. If it were offered in that price range it would be a no brainer or me.

[Fleer]

For me? Still Blue3 (https://gg-audio.com/blue3.html)

[confidence]

I'm not an organist and have no business being in this thread but organ clone and Leslie sim tells me a facsimile will never be a carbon copy.

 

How so? Identical "carbon copy" is exactly what the word clone means.

[El Lobo]

A Leslie sim will never duplicate the sound and feel of actually moving air when you're in the room with a real Leslie. Just can't be done. A recording of a real Leslie does not give you the feel of what the rotating speakers do to the sound when you're in the room with them, even in a big hall. Or especially in a big hall.

[Al Coda]

 

Neo Instruments, ..., also makes an overdrive pedal using that same algorithm called the Drive In. Its a fantastic sounding pedal especially on organ, EPs, synths.

 

Thx for the tip,- never seen before !

 

Unfortunately most clonewheels do not have an FX loop before their Leslie sims.

 

Viscount Legend Solo, Live, the flagship and J.D.F. Edition organs offer such FX insert pre-rotary sim.

Most critical users report the Legend´s overdrive as the weak point while praising the pure rotary effect, "woody" percussion sound and C/V behaviour.

This pedal might fix the issue.

 

But I see it´s for guitars and now wonder what the electrical specs and I/O level of Viscount´s FX insert are.

 

Did you try the pedal w/ unbal. line level (-10dB) signals ?

 

A.C.

[Al Coda]

 

A recording of a real Leslie does not give you the feel of what the rotating speakers do to the sound when you're in the room with them, even in a big hall. Or especially in a big hall.

 

Yeah,- but that´s not the point because what we already heard on records we liked ARE rmiced and recorded Leslies.

So, it should be doable creating the complex effect in a 2-dimensional manner offering THAT sound.

 

But then, we come to the point where in every recording there were different organs, different leslies in different conditions,- and different mics, rooms as also the different imaginations of recording- and mixing- engineers while the latter might have added tweaks to make the overall recording fit best in the mix of THAT tune.

So noone hears the Leslie "in the room" like the player does in exactly THAT room and at that distance,- and already in a PA inside that room it sounds 2-dimensional and different.

 

It´s just only a volatile experience which can never be packed into a silicone chip.

 

Leaves us to fool the ear w/ clones and play w/ ´em as good as we can.

And the clones are so good already now ...

 

Man, I performed w/ a old analog KORG CX-3 and made more money than today and even w/ a DX7mkII in DUAL MODE, Alg. #31 and #'32 configurated as sinewaves and tuned like drawbar pitches, perc. harmonics and keyclick,- then ran into a Chandler Tube Driver rackmount and Dynacord CLS-222 made a great sound in a rock band.

 

I agree that didn´t work in a jazz organ trio though.

 

A.C.

[Jim Alfredson]

 

But I see it´s for guitars and now wonder what the electrical specs and I/O level of Viscount´s FX insert are.

 

Did you try the pedal w/ unbal. line level (-10dB) signals ?

 

A.C.

 

Yes. It sounds great. I think he's marketing it to guitarists because that's a big market, but it works great with keyboards.

[JohnDoe]

The best Leslie sim on the market is the IK Multimedia Leslie plugin. I wish Hammond and IK would release that in physical form as a pedal. It is absolutely stunning.

 

Can you push that wish to those who make decisions at Hammond/ Suzuki?

[AnotherScott]

".. I wish Hammond and IK would release that in physical form as a pedal. It is absolutely stunning...

I wish that they would release the entire organ/leslie package in a midi module. The price bar for that has been set by Viscount and GSI. If it were offered in that price range it would be a no brainer or me.

An iPad Mini ($399) + Apple Lightning to USB 3 Camera ($39) + the app ($130) + USB and 1/8"-to-1/4" breakout cables (under $20) gets you the whole shebang for under $600, cheaper than those modules... actually not a whole lot more than a Vent...

 

Similarly...

 

The best Leslie sim on the market is the IK Multimedia Leslie plugin. I wish Hammond and IK would release that in physical form as a pedal. It is absolutely stunning.

 

Can you push that wish to those who make decisions at Hammond/ Suzuki?

If IK merely allowed you to send external audio to the Leslie sim that's included with B-3X, you could use an iPad Mini as that Leslie "pedal" by sending your audio into it (using your sustain pedal or whatever to toggle rotary speed), if you preferred to use whatever your current organ sound is rather than the sound of B-3X.

[CEB]

This is all you need right here.

 

https://reverb.com/item/36216461-hammond-xb-2-owned-used-by-rick-wakeman-of-yes-1990-natural?utm_source=rev-ios-app&utm_medium=ios-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=36216461

[Doerfler]

This is all you need right here.

 

[Jazz+]

It hasn"t been mentioned much, but last year"s Mojo 61 software editor update added an adjustable tube overdrive level to its Leslie same. To my ears it improved quite a bit, it sounds somewhat warmer, and more analog. Try Increasing that level and you might be impressed. It sounds different than the regular Overdrive knob levels on the keyboard itself.