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How important is after touch?


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Poly AT has the same limitations I mentioned above but opens up a bunch of new possibilities. Yes you can accent or highlight certain notes while holding other notes. But how many people have the dexterity to do this with every finger, controlling just the right amount of effect per note while playing other notes?

:wave:

 

Cool Marshall. If possible I"d love to hear a demo.

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Poly AT has the same limitations I mentioned above but opens up a bunch of new possibilities. Yes you can accent or highlight certain notes while holding other notes. But how many people have the dexterity to do this with every finger, controlling just the right amount of effect per note while playing other notes?

picking up from my post #3070209 above, it does not have to be used the way you describe in order to be useful. As in that example, it allows you to simply affect one note without affecting all the rest, which does not require new technique. Also it can allow for richer sound manipulation merely via random difference, rather than the controlled difference you describe. Say aftertouch is introducing vibrato. With mono aftertouch, the vibrato for one note of a chord will result in an identical vibrato for all notes in the chord, all starting at the identical time with the identical rate and identical depth. Now imagine playing the same chord as a "broken" chord so that each note starts at a just slightly different point in time, and has just a slightly different amount of pressure applied to it, just from normal human variability. If your hardware LFO configuration supports it, you could be playing a chord where, like a real string ensemble for example, each note is slightly different from every other in its vibrato, for a richer and more realsitic ensemble effect.

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I don't want aftertouch on my acoustic or electric pianos or velocity or aftertouch on my Hammond.
I love what velocity lets me do to my Kurzweil clonewheel: I can route it to subtly affect percussion and/or key click if I want, adding some per-note expressiveness. I tend to keep the effect subliminal, but it's in there somewhere.

-Tom Williams

{First Name} {at} AirNetworking {dot} com

PC4-7, PX-5S, AX-Edge, PC361

 

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But how many people have the dexterity to do this with every finger, controlling just the right amount of effect per note while playing other notes?

 

:wave:

 

I know I sound like a grouch. But I look at these advanced performance features like I look at the Theremin. Awesome for people that study and can really use them. Otherwise it's more about "look what my synth can do that your's can't". Hey I love all this technology too and even if I suck at it it's fun to play with. I'm just not trying to fool anyone, especially myself.

 

I think it comes down to training. I played piano since age 3, had piano lessons for 18 years with the standard Hanon, scales, and classical repretoire. With all that playing I have pretty strong fingers which are handy for aftertouch.

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Poly AT has the same limitations I mentioned above but opens up a bunch of new possibilities. Yes you can accent or highlight certain notes while holding other notes. But how many people have the dexterity to do this with every finger, controlling just the right amount of effect per note while playing other notes?

picking up from my post #3070209 above, it does not have to be used the way you describe in order to be useful.

 

I don"t think I implied this. I was challenging specific uses of AT that others cited and giving reasons why I feel using AT for these purposes falls short. I haven"t read that anyone"s acknowledged or challenged those points. I"m also pointing out that effective use of polyphonic AT may require a fair amount of practice and preparation to truly be expressive. Anyone can play a velocity equipped keyboard- doesn"t mean they have the control to use it expressively. Of course there are various skill levels associated with any performance control and different ways for people to use it at every level.

 

If you tell me Poly AT is really good for phrasing (as discussed in the past) I"m going to challenge it. Strike back and you may find that we have different views on what constitutes phrasing. That makes for a good discussion, one that may even open my mind to what phrasing means in other musical styles.

 

But please don"t interpret these comments as my claiming this is the only way to use it. Likewise no need to tell me 'try it before you knock it' :rolleyes::facepalm: . You guys should know me better than that.

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It seems clear that aftertouch is very useful to some and not particularly useful to others. To be sure there are many, well thought through arguments against aftertouch. A performing keyboardist for four decades, aftertouch is mission critical for me. I can hazard a guess as to the type of people who tend to find aftertouch valuable. At risk of generalization, I expect it to be likely that they are live performers, and they tend to play synth workstations or multi-keyboard rigs instead of, or in addition to pianos and organs. I am not saying that people who fit this profile tend to value aftertouch, but that people who value aftertouch appear to be more likely to fit this profile.

 

What about you?

 

Here's what I do: I use aftertouch to add interest after a note is struck. Most commonly aftertouch triggers vibrato or tremolo and sometimes it morphs a timbre. It can be evocative for a ring modulated growl or a low pitched layer to swell in while a note is held. Aftertouch doesn't shape the notes themselves. Keyboard phrasing, a pedal and sometimes a breath controller do that. Aftertouch is a right hand technique more than a left hand technique for me. The first three fingers of the right hand are the best at it. If I land on a held note with finger 4 or finger 5, I often shift to my thumb or second finger to execute the aftertouch smoothly. A pedal might be opening and closing a filter at roughly the same time. So a note may have multiple concurrent shapes in that sense. Generally though, I am following the typical convention of a note sounding, then rising to full animated expression, then beginning to decay and then ceasing to sound. Taken together, the music breathes. Despite aftertouch being such a narrow use case, that use case is mission-critical. Both my hands are often busy and a sustained note wants to remain interesting and alive just as it is for horns or voices I might be playing with. Your needs may be different and that's cool. One approach is not superior to another. :thu::thu:

 

Tom, I particularly appreciate the ideas you mentioned. I think you are slightly crazy and I can't wait to meet you and have a beer. :love::cheers:

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My first synth was a Yamaha CS-50. Looking back, I'm not sure I would've made the same choice - due to mostly non-tweakable presets, and the annoying overuse of high pass filtering in those; but the control features (especially aftertouch) and routings to the LFO, sub-oscillator and filter made it a fun and sometimes powerful instrument. While I've lived without it on many instruments, aftertouch has also been a more-than-welcome resource on others. I've especially found it useful on solo string-type lines (especially electric violin and cello, or cello-influenced leads), various synth leads, synth brass, and all kinds of pads. Considering that AT is found on very inexpensive keyboard controllers now, I find it weird that it's left off of synth-action keyboards, or any 88 that has a developed ROMpler/synth engine. Since it's not super-expensive, why not have it available for most users as a resource? Other than the most basic keyboard instrument - say under a $200 price point - I think AT should be standard. Of four keyboards I own, two have AT and two do not. Considering how I began with electronic keyboards, it's ironic that one of the two non-aftertouch instruments is a Yamaha 'board :laugh:.

'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo.

 

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I use Aftertouch for pitch-bending almost as much as I use it for vibrato. Because my left hand is always on the keyboard, playing. My mod and pitch wheels hardly ever get touched.

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My two pennies: As an ex-gigging musician, aftertouch was vital then and remains vital now. The only keyboard I've ever owned that didn't have AT was the 49-key Roland @ Juno (but it did respond to AT sent over MIDI). For things like volume swells or changes, I would generally assign that work to an expression pedal. But in a multi-keyboard setup sometimes your feet are busy doing other things, like holding down the sustain pedal on one board. If you're standing up while playing, it can be a challenge to use both feet without tumbling over. LOL. So, AT then becomes an excellent tool in that scenario. On older digital synths that didn't include many knobs or sliders (Korg M1, for example), AT was absolutely necessary for some kind of expressive playing, like opening or closing a filter or bringing in a layered pad under an elec. piano. But AT really did some magic when playing monophonically. Say you're playing a saxophone patch... you could use mod wheel for vibrato, but AT could trigger a different LFO for a trill effect. Yet if your other hand was busy on another keyboard, you could simply use AT for vibrato or pitch bend as needed.

 

My Wavestations respond to Poly AT and my Morpheus does as well, so eventually in the mid-90s I picked up an Ensoniq VFX SD for that. Now I have a Hydrasynth, which has really excellent Poly AT implementation (much better than the Ensoniq's), and even tho it's a mono-timbral synth, I think the Poly AT on it is just the best thing ever. In fact, the reason the Hydrasynth caught my attention was because it had Poly AT. One of the very cool things about the AT on the Hydrasynth is that internally it will do both channel and poly AT at the same time.

 

Anyway, count me as one of those who are disappointed in the lack of aftertouch on some of the newer synths. I feel that Korg has kind of dropped the ball here, especially with the Wavestate and the Opsix -- no AT and not enough keys to my liking. Of the course the Nautilus doesn't have an AT keybed either, which is a head-scratcher. At two grand for the 61-key, with fewer knobs and no sliders, it's just odd that it lacks aftertouch, and that makes a Kronos far more appealing.

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The Prophet T8 apparently implemented poly aftertouch slightly differently from other synths. I never had any experience with that board; I have simply read about it. Not many units were made.

Of all the synths I've owned, played, and sold, this is the one I think about the most. In retrospect, getting rid of it was completely idiotic, especially considering what it would cost to replace it nowadays. Sigh.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "implemented poly aftertouch slightly differently". The MIDI messages were the same as everyone else's, and how the T8 used it was of course internal to the T8. Did you mean that the sensors were different than others'? That is true, and it's part of why the machine was so hard to calibrate.

Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) :D

Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant

Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1

 

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important yes, but apparently not to Medeli - it's the only complaint on the PC4 keybed I have. The aftertouch is so damn hard to use (even on easiest setting) to be pretty much a non-starter.

There is no luck - luck is simply the confluence of circumstance and co-incidence...

 

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As I recall, the T8 used the Synclavier action which had optical sensors. No moving parts. I had a bud who owned one and I got to play it several times. As I recall the action felt pretty good.

Yes, this is true. So we're talking about hardware, not data sent. Got it.

 

And yes, it was a fabulous action, just fabulous. The Hydasynth suits me fine after nearly 30 years since I sold the T8, but I still have very fond memories...

Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) :D

Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant

Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1

 

clicky!:  more about me ~ my radio station (and my fam) ~ my local tribe ~ my day job ~ my bookmy music

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As I recall, the T8 used the Synclavier action which had optical sensors. No moving parts. I had a bud who owned one and I got to play it several times. As I recall the action felt pretty good.
My understanding is that it was the other way around; NED used the T8"s action.
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As I recall, the T8 used the Synclavier action which had optical sensors. No moving parts. I had a bud who owned one and I got to play it several times. As I recall the action felt pretty good.
My understanding is that it was the other way around; NED used the T8"s action.

 

Correct, NED used the T8 keybed. While it had no moving parts, the optical sensors weren't fun to calibrate.

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As I recall, the T8 used the Synclavier action which had optical sensors. No moving parts. I had a bud who owned one and I got to play it several times. As I recall the action felt pretty good.
My understanding is that it was the other way around; NED used the T8"s action.

 

Correct, NED used the T8 keybed. While it had no moving parts, the optical sensors weren't fun to calibrate.

 

I'll bet, especially at that time. I got to play one and thought it to be supernaturally buttery. Its just one example of a lovely technique whose underlying demands took the bloom off the rose, like a CS-80 drifting a major third if you breathed on it. Now velocity sensing? I put that sh8t on everything. I doubt that any real B-3 players care if I do that, either. Its a synth thing.

 "I want to be an intellectual, but I don't have the brainpower.
  The absent-mindedness, I've got that licked."
        ~ John Cleese

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It's not important until you realize your keyboard doesn't have it.

:yeahthat:

Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) :D

Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant

Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1

 

clicky!:  more about me ~ my radio station (and my fam) ~ my local tribe ~ my day job ~ my bookmy music

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As I recall, the T8 used the Synclavier action which had optical sensors. No moving parts. I had a bud who owned one and I got to play it several times. As I recall the action felt pretty good.
My understanding is that it was the other way around; NED used the T8"s action.

 

Correct, NED used the T8 keybed. While it had no moving parts, the optical sensors weren't fun to calibrate.

Heh, I wonder if a used Synclavier would be cheaper than a used T8...

Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) :D

Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant

Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1

 

clicky!:  more about me ~ my radio station (and my fam) ~ my local tribe ~ my day job ~ my bookmy music

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The one that makes me sad is my new PolyD. Keyboard has aftertouch, but it can"t be routed to the LFO. I pretty much exclusively use AT for vibrato, so I was hoping to be able to do this. It"s probably the most common use for AT. Now I understand the original MiniMoog didn"t allow routing into the LFO... but ya know what I"d also didn"t have, an LFO! Or paraphonic mode, or 4 oscillators. This was an incredibly strange decision from Behringer: they went through the trouble of putting AT on the keybed, giving it external routing, but didn"t go the last 9 yards to route it back to the LFO (or Osc4, either way).

Puck Funk! :)

 

Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat?

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The one that makes me sad is my new PolyD. Keyboard has aftertouch, but it can"t be routed to the LFO. I pretty much exclusively use AT for vibrato, so I was hoping to be able to do this. It"s probably the most common use for AT.

 

Eric, does your Poly D send a smooth aftertouch message through MIDI? If so, you could use aftertouch to smoothly bring in a sine wave from another keyboard or module. 8-10 Hz sine/tri wave will give you a violin-like vibrato when patched into the Pitch CV. I've been gigging a Moog with this modular-style trick for several years. No issues.

 

Alternatively, you could send the aftertouch MIDI signal from your PolyD into MainStage and use MIDI FX: MODIFIER to convert aftertouch it into CC1: Modwheel. Then send it back to your Poly D. There might be a bit more lag with this approach.

 

Hope this helps. Please keep us posted.

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Poly AT has the same limitations I mentioned above but opens up a bunch of new possibilities. Yes you can accent or highlight certain notes while holding other notes. But how many people have the dexterity to do this with every finger, controlling just the right amount of effect per note while playing other notes?

:wave:

 

Cool Marshall. If possible I"d love to hear a demo.

No problem, let me find my Hanon PolyAT Exercise book...!

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Poly AT has the same limitations I mentioned above but opens up a bunch of new possibilities. Yes you can accent or highlight certain notes while holding other notes. But how many people have the dexterity to do this with every finger, controlling just the right amount of effect per note while playing other notes?

:wave:

 

Cool Marshall. If possible I"d love to hear a demo.

No problem, let me find my Hanon PolyAT Exercise book...!

 

[video:youtube]

:laugh:

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But how many people have the dexterity to do this with every finger, controlling just the right amount of effect per note while playing other notes?

No problem, let me find my Hanon PolyAT Exercise book...!

Hmm:

[c]

Cee Eee Eff Gee AyAyAyAyAy Gee Eff Eee

Dee Eff Gee Ay BeYeYeYeYe Ay Gee Eff

....

[/c]

-Tom Williams

{First Name} {at} AirNetworking {dot} com

PC4-7, PX-5S, AX-Edge, PC361

 

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Since I bought a Hydrasynth I have an entire new appreciation for AT for 2 reasons.

 

1. Hydrasynth AT is easy to activate. On all my previous keyboards it was more of an off/on switch. I've owned kurz/Nord/Yamaha/DSI and all of them required IMO too much pressure to activate AT. AT was more of an effect than a part of your playing. The Hydrasynth AT is easily activated with gentle/subtle pressure, making it much more usable and expressive.

 

2. Poly AT is like a zillion times more expressive than channel AT. When paired with reason 1. above it becomes even more so.

 

Sorry if I'm repeating but I wasn't going to read all 4 pages.

You want me to start this song too slow or too fast?

 

Forte7, Nord Stage 3, XK3c, OB-6, Arturia Collection, Mainstage, MotionSound KBR3D. A bunch of MusicMan Guitars, Line6 stuff

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