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How important is after touch?


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What are the prices that you recall for the Korg and Yamaha?

I don't know, but based on what they were going for used not too many years later, I'm guessing there's a good chance they were under $2k to begin with... that's why I made it a question, maybe someone else knows...

 

As for the PC4, at $1999 you are technically correct in that it is $1 under $2000. I applaud your subtle show of humor there.

:-) but also, the lower priced PC4-7 is coming soon...

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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You can certainly get aftertouch on even cheap controllers can't you? All the Roland A-Pros have them starting with the 37-key A300 which is around $250. I haven't checked out the other manufacturer's offerings but I can't imagine Roland is the only company with AT on their small controllers.

 

As I said, I barely ever need or use it but the times I do, I'm happy it's there. My old KX88 has it and I don't think it interferes or affects the keyboard's feel in any appreciable way.

 

This brings up another mystery - why the big keyboard companies are more willing to put AT on controllers than on keyboards with onboard synth engines in the sub-$1999 range.

 

At $1999 and up as Scott says you have that Kurzweill, the Sequential REV2, etc.

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I've never heard of a Korg or Yamaha keyboard that sells for under $2000 that has aftertouch.

 

How much did the Korg DS-8 retail for? That was a consumer FM synth which had aftertouch. I know because I scavenged the keybed from one.

 

 

If we trust Wikipedia, it was $1400, which is still well over the price of the synth that pauldekonig is complaining about for lacking AT.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korg_DS-8

 

For my part I wasn't complaining about lack of keyboard synths - not controller keyboards that don't have a built-in sound engine, but an actual synth - that have AT at - here's a dangerous word - "affordable" - prices. I arbitrarily picked under $2000 as "affordable" and quickly got called out on that. So I'll say under $999. Rather than complaining, I was merely observing that the reason there are so very few "affordable" keyboard synths with AT for under $999.... is unknown.

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Okay y"all. The Yamaha YS200 retailed for $1,258 in 1988 US dollars (converted from 1988 Pounds Sterling). 61-key 4-op FM synth, and it was a 'budget'/hobbyist model more or less. It had aftertouch.

 

http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/yamaha-ys200/3996

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

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Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

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Ah, better yet, the YS100 (same as the 200 minus a sequencer IIRC) retailed for $1,114 converted from pounds (both 1988).

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

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Samson makes a 4-octave MIDI controller with a beautiful aftertouch sensor for well under $200, as do Arturia and others. The CME Xkey costs under $200 and does POLY aftertouch. So is cost really that much of a factor here?

You can't really compare the CME, it doesn't have traditional keys, the entire technology is different. Similar with the Arturis Microfreak. The cost of doing AT on these things cannot be extrapolated to what it would cost to add AT to a traditional key mechanism. But yes, the Samson Graphite you mentioned is a nice affordable implementation. I don't think we should necessarily expect companies like Korg and Yamaha to necessarily be able to be feature-price competitive with the likes of Samson and Behringer, but I would be surprised if any company couldn't add AT to their synth action boards for $100 (or certainly $200) retail.

 

The CME Xkey USB and bluetooth controllers retail under $500 and has aftertouch.

I think the qualifier for this part of the thread was FM synth capability. Just in general, there are AT boards well under $2k, actually under $1k... Waldorf Blofeld, Behringer Deep Mind, Studiologic Sledge, Roland AX-Edge. (I think there was also Dave Smith's Mopho at about $1k, but those are discontinued.)

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I think after touch is as good and/or useful as the way it is implemented in the key action. If it's too easily (too lightly) triggered, it can be a PITA when you don't want it!

 

I suspect from all the comments here and elsewhere, it probably shares a similar place in people's affections as the famous (in UK anyway) spread, Marmite.

 

I suppose whether you like it, or find it useful, is probably similar to X stands...... :duck:

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I won't buy a new keyboard without aftertouch. For me certainly, aftertouch is an extremely useful way of adding musical expression from a keyboard.

 

Let's face it, compared to a wind instrument or a bowed instrument, traditional piano keyboards have expressive limitations. It's great that synthesis opens the door to a wider harmonic universe, yet keyboardists are still limited by that clunky keyboard. What if there were a simple but useful way to add more expressive intent to those clunky keys? What if there were a way to accomplish what foot pedals and mod wheels do, but without the awkward foot pedal dance or needing to take your hands off of the keys?

 

Aftertouch is a feature that doesn't have to be enabled for every patch. But if the feature is missing when I need it, then for me that's a huge negative. A total deal breaker for some of the recent keyboards that I won't be buying. It would be like buying a piano with no sustain pedal capability.

 

With analog synth patches, aftertouch lets me open a filter expressively after the envelope is finished or add vibrato when my left hand is unavailable to reach the mod wheel (or both, hey dream big). For strings and horns it lets me add dynamic swells (subtle or dramatic) or bring in other harmonic elements. For B3 patches, being able to trigger Leslie speed changes when hands and feet are already busy is a helpful option. These sorts of techniques, along with others, help make the music BREATHE.

 

In the heat of a performance it's like having an extra hand. Who couldn't use an extra hand now and then? It's expensive and currently probably impossible to surgically graft new limbs and hands to your body, and there's always the challenge of where to attach them. THERE MUST BE A BETTER WAY! Aftertouch.

 

For piano, I don't use generally use pitch bend or aftertouch on the piano itself (although as I write this I can think of interesting uses in special cases), but if I'm layering, say, a pad or strings under the piano patch, aftertouch is great for expressive swells or to control the filter on a synth layer without affecting the piano patch.

 

All my keyboards have some form of aftertouch (mono, poly or capacitive), including relatively inexpensive controllers, the modular setup and workstation/romplers. With one exception, a classic analog synth, but it's about to be modified to at least respond to aftertouch over MIDI (both mono and poly aftertouch, plus velocity, woohoo!).

 

YMMV but aftertouch is a key feature in a keyboard for me.

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And, of course, Poly AT's big advantage is it can still be fully used on split keyboard setup, whereas mono AT has no idea which part of the keyboard is activating the aftertouch so even if you only wanted it to affect the top section of they keyboard and have it turned off on the bottom section if you inadvertently activate the aftertouch when playing the bottom section it will still affect the top section.

Handy on keyboards like the S2 where you can have up to 16 keyboard zones.

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I won't buy a new keyboard without aftertouch. For me certainly, aftertouch is an extremely useful way of adding musical expression from a keyboard.

 

Let's face it, compared to a wind instrument or a bowed instrument, traditional piano keyboards have expressive limitations. It's great that synthesis opens the door to a wider harmonic universe, yet keyboardists are still limited by that clunky keyboard. What if there were a simple but useful way to add more expressive intent to those clunky keys? What if there were a way to accomplish what foot pedals and mod wheels do, but without the awkward foot pedal dance or needing to take your hands off of the keys?

 

Aftertouch is a feature that doesn't have to be enabled for every patch. But if the feature is missing when I need it, then for me that's a huge negative. ............

 

All my keyboards have some form of aftertouch (mono, poly or capacitive), including relatively inexpensive controllers, the modular setup and workstation/romplers. With one exception, a classic analog synth, but it's about to be modified to at least respond to aftertouch over MIDI (both mono and poly aftertouch, plus velocity, woohoo!).

 

YMMV but aftertouch is a key feature in a keyboard for me.

 

Yes it's true, that like most things, if a feature is missing then you'll almost certainly need it or find it helpful! The only time I haven't liked aftertouch has been when the action has made it's triggering a bit unpredictable, (I think mostly in some "less expensive" aka cheap 'boards - not all, by any means though) but I agree that for synth and organ it certainly can be very useful, especially if your hands and feet are a bit busy to use other expression controls!

 

Edit: I've often thought that knee operated expression used by some pipe organs might be useful!

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Aftertouch is a feature that doesn't have to be enabled for every patch. But if the feature is missing when I need it, then for me that's a huge negative. A total deal breaker for some of the recent keyboards that I won't be buying. It would be like buying a piano with no sustain pedal capability.

 

With analog synth patches, aftertouch lets me open a filter expressively after the envelope is finished or add vibrato when my left hand is unavailable to reach the mod wheel (or both, hey dream big). For strings and horns it lets me add dynamic swells (subtle or dramatic) or bring in other harmonic elements. For B3 patches, being able to trigger Leslie speed changes when hands and feet are already busy is a helpful option. These sorts of techniques, along with others, help make the music BREATHE.

 

In the heat of a performance it's like having an extra hand. Who couldn't use an extra hand now and then? It's expensive and currently probably impossible to surgically graft new limbs and hands to your body, and there's always the challenge of where to attach them. THERE MUST BE A BETTER WAY! Aftertouch.

 

 

YMMV but aftertouch is a key feature in a keyboard for me.

 

 

I'm not directing this at you or anyone in particular. I've discussed AT before and I fear I've been labeled an anti-aftertouchite. I'm not - really. I like AT and use it quite often but I think it's uses are highly exaggerated. Yes you can do swells with string or horn sounds but I think it's extremely limited for this purpose. Why? Because AT always starts and returns to a value of 0 in between notes. That's not how horns and strings work. So what I often hear when someone attempt swells is a swoop on every note. If you're using it for a final note/chord swell - great swell :whistle:. But that's what I mean by limited.

 

Imo AT works a lot better for vibrato/tremolo effects because it's fast enough not to notice the transition in between notes. Using it for filter cutoff... again you get the constant swoop effect. Last time I brought this up someone said use the mod wheel or a foot pedal for those cases. Of course - that was my point and I do. I also asked someone to point me to some really good use of polyphonic AT. Anyone?

 

Poly AT has the same limitations I mentioned above but opens up a bunch of new possibilities. Yes you can accent or highlight certain notes while holding other notes. But how many people have the dexterity to do this with every finger, controlling just the right amount of effect per note while playing other notes? Seriously this is a wonderful capability. But just like the Osmose with even greater control options learning a technique to use this effectively and musically is very challenging and requires a whole lot of practice and study. I don't see too many people taking this on - especially me :bor:.

 

I can definitely see poly AT being useful for orchestrations and movie sound tracks. But as someone mentioned you're probably going to be editing that AT data. Still having the ability to perform those control aspects initially is fantastic.

 

I know I sound like a grouch. But I look at these advanced performance features like I look at the Theremin. Awesome for people that study and can really use them. Otherwise it's more about "look what my synth can do that your's can't". Hey I love all this technology too and even if I suck at it it's fun to play with. I'm just not trying to fool anyone, especially myself.

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I like AT and use it quite often but I think it's uses are highly exaggerated. Yes you can do swells with string or horn sounds but I think it's extremely limited for this purpose. Why? Because AT always starts and returns to a value of 0 in between notes. That's not how horns and strings work. So what I often hear when someone attempt swells is a swoop on every note. If you're using it for a final note/chord swell - great. But that's what I mean by limited.

Using it for filter cutoff... again you get the constant swoop effect.

This points out what to me is the lack of intelligent support for aftertouch in the target synths, where typically it's treated as just another continuous controller and typically defaults to directly controlling mod level or pitch. How about using aftertouch to control, not the filter cutoff, but an envelope - so that leaning harder on the key causes the filter to open up faster (that's how i'd want to do a swell). Or how about a latching aftertouch option, so you could use aftertouch to bend a note up a half-step and have the pitch remain when you released pressure.

 

I'm sure there's other possibilities. But i think it does support the idea that aftertouch is somewhat of an afterthought for synth manufacturers.

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Exactly right JK. You can do stuff like this with some of the more modulation-centric boards. I have no idea how often manufactures implement these modulations in factory presets. But to me this is just as important as the physical controllers themselves.
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My AT experience has mostly been with the mono version, which is generally implemented with a huge dose of Ass. The triggering behavior was always coarse, making it good for effects only. Ptooey. I got to play a CS-80 on three occasions, so I understand the holy grail aspect. If the gradients are fine enough, it works well. Overall, I've just turned the damned bandwidth-gobbling thing Off.

 

However, I still ponder a pair of ROLI Blocks (that'd yield 4 octaves' worth) and Equator. That's under $1000, computer not included, of course. The price seems low to me, as you're taking up a wholly new level of expression in electronics. I got to try one out and its quite illuminating. I liken it to a cello, my favorite bowed string instrument because of its great range. I have the issue of developing the muscle memory and ear required to play MPE well. That goes nowhere unless you commit to a minimal (read: considerable) amount of woodshedding. I can see leaning more towards a new Mac & Omnisphere, but if I need poly AT beyond my XKey's version, that Block sure looks good. Oh yeah, I'll use a Block to master Omnisphere's capabilities, no problem, I have a decade to spare. :lolol:

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I've never had the joy of trying polyphonic aftertouch. I know it's been around since the days of the Kurzweil Midiboard, but the boards that had it in my "upbringing" were the Roland A-50 and A-80. But then there was the struggle of finding a sound source that could respond to it.

 

Nowadays I think most sound sources would recognize it. I'm not sure if it's one of those ideas that is great on paper but isn't all that useful, or if it really adds some meaningful expression. In my own playing, I always find aftertouch most useful for monophonic lines where I want to add some vibrato or a bit of filter modulation. The swell with string pads would be another good use case.

 

Todd

 

Edit: I shouldn't single-out Roland with polyphonic aftertouch. I did a quick search and it looks like Ensoniq had it on many of their boards around that same timeframe.

Sundown

 

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Not many boards or modules respond to poly AT, but there's a growing list of softsynths that do. My Kurzweil 1000 ROMplers respond to poly AT and I have to say don't knock it until you tried it.

 

Rhodes offered a poly aftertouch option for the Chroma... I'd LOVE to try that.

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The Prophet T8 apparently implemented poly aftertouch slightly differently from other synths. I never had any experience with that board; I have simply read about it. Not many units were made. Of course, Arturia's MIDI controllers include channel aftertouch, even though they're relatively cheap boards.

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I find AT mostly useful for only on hand's worth of playing, but that's okay -- I consider myself to be a multikeyboardist anyway.

 

Depending on the synth engine, AT doesn't have to be limited to On/off or return-to-zero applications. My Ensoniq SQ2-32 (1990s) allowed mono AT to toggle the Leslie effect. It also allowed sounds within a split to ignore AT, so the world didn't all have to wiggle at once. Modern Kurzweils allow all kinds of lag and delay options with mono AT, so that you could indeed use it to push a brass swell. (They also respond to poly AT, but I don't currently have a board that sends that.)

 

I have numerous guitar patches that use mono AT to raise (no LFO) the pitch of only those notes that are being sustained by fingers, while pedal-sustained notes are unaffected. This is because a guitarist told me that LH fretboard vibrato almost never involves all sounding strings.

 

I have a sax patch in which AT slightly _lowers_ the frequency of a LP filter, while lowering the pitch slightly, to emulate an embouchure vibrato on a sax mouthpiece.

 

And yeah, sometimes it just brings in a nice LFO wobble on a synth lead.

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I will not buy a keyboard that doesn't have after touch.

 

This is also my position. Although I'm sorely tempted to get a MODX7.

The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

 

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

 

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Modern Kurzweils allow all kinds of lag and delay options with mono AT, so that you could indeed use it to push a brass swell. (They also respond to poly AT, but I don't currently have a board that sends that.)

 

I have numerous guitar patches that use mono AT to raise (no LFO) the pitch of only those notes that are being sustained by fingers, while pedal-sustained notes are unaffected. This is because a guitarist told me that LH fretboard vibrato almost never involves all sounding strings.

 

I have a sax patch in which AT slightly _lowers_ the frequency of a LP filter, while lowering the pitch slightly, to emulate an embouchure vibrato on a sax mouthpiece.

 

And yeah, sometimes it just brings in a nice LFO wobble on a synth lead.

 

Good points Tom. I had Kurzweil and the Andromeda in mind when I stated similar. I'm betting the Hydrasynth has this kind of capability as well along with poly AT.

 

With the Kurzweil I believe the ability to manipulate AT or any controller for that matter is done at the patch level with FUNs. This does not affect the AT transmitted over midi in Setup mode. Would setting up a Control program with these "lag and delay options" allow external synths to take advantage of this?

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At the risk of killing yet another thread merely by posting in it, I"ll offer this:

 

I play 'Ring of Fire" by Johnny Cash. At first I played both the lead and harmony trumpet part, adding the aftertouch at the end of each line, but of course you get vibrato on both. Didn"t sound good or realistic. Next, I sequenced the harmony part so that I could only apply the aftertouch to the lead. I didn"t like that either. So I sequenced the lead trumpet, and play the harmony part, with the aftertouch. That"s the winner for me. Blends better, and the aftertouch subtly fattens it up.

The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

 

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

 

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At first I played both the lead and harmony trumpet part, adding the aftertouch at the end of each line, but of course you get vibrato on both. Didn"t sound good or realistic. Next, I sequenced the harmony part so that I could only apply the aftertouch to the lead. I didn"t like that either. So I sequenced the lead trumpet, and play the harmony part, with the aftertouch. That"s the winner for me. Blends better, and the aftertouch subtly fattens it up.
And there's an example of where one could take advantage of poly AT.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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At the risk of killing yet another thread merely by posting in it, I"ll offer this:

 

I play 'Ring of Fire" by Johnny Cash. At first I played both the lead and harmony trumpet part, adding the aftertouch at the end of each line, but of course you get vibrato on both. Didn"t sound good or realistic. Next, I sequenced the harmony part so that I could only apply the aftertouch to the lead. I didn"t like that either. So I sequenced the lead trumpet, and play the harmony part, with the aftertouch. That"s the winner for me. Blends better, and the aftertouch subtly fattens it up.

 

Off-topic, but I couldn't resist. ;)

 

RingOfFire.png

1555.png.a447febe78e291859bd9d26c7b952b17.png

The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

 

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

 

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I think if it is implemented well, it is just another expression option. The sad thing is that it is not well implemented on many synths (too hard to trigger, not smooth, etc.). On a CS-80, it was well implemented. The only keyboard I currently have that has it is my MIDI controller and it is monophonic. I do wish we had more synths and in particular, MIDI controllers with standard keys, that offered poly aftertouch. It is nice to bring out or add modulation to certain voices in a chord. You would think as technology advanced, we'd see this more often than less on higher end synths. I will say, I don't want aftertouch on my acoustic or electric pianos or velocity or aftertouch on my Hammond.
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Poly AT has the same limitations I mentioned above but opens up a bunch of new possibilities. Yes you can accent or highlight certain notes while holding other notes. But how many people have the dexterity to do this with every finger, controlling just the right amount of effect per note while playing other notes?

:wave:

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