Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

How important is after touch?


Recommended Posts

I have four boards that have aftertouch (Motif XF8, PC3, JV-1000, YS200), and three that do not (Krome, PSR-295, PSS-470). From a practical perspective, I like having it available, but I don't like it to be too easy to trigger (I will disable it if recording midi tracks where I don't want it on). In gigging situations, I use it for increasing reverb sends and vibrato mostly. I admittedly don't use it that much as I don't get to do a lot of solos on aftertouch-friendly sounds. However, I see it as a quality thing - if a manufacturer is willing to put in the time to get a solid aftertouch system in place, it's a more premium product than an equivalent board that does not have it. At least to me. :)

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Replies 123
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

I think the Ensoniq process was capacitive-based, and inexpensive to implement. Seems to me the patent would have run out by now? Maybe someone could take that to the next level, and use it to make an MPE-friendly controller.

 

As to aftertouch's importance. I think it depends on how performance-oriented you are. It's great for real-time playing/recording. But if a synth is really awesome, doesn't have aftertouch, and you're mostly working in the studio, you can always draw in controller envelopes after the fact to alter the parameter you wish you could alter with aftertouch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Speaking personally, I come directly from the era of the ARP ProDGX atop a Hammond A-100. As an organist rather than pianist growing up, I have relatively little fine dynamic nuance in either hand, and I am actually more likely than most to dial down or entirely disable velocity sensitivity on my synth patches. More importantly, I use aftertouch all the damn time. ALL THE DAMN TIME. It is more important to me than velocity, than pitch and mod wheels, than anything else, and I have neither the room nor the patience for any keyboard in my rig, anywhere, that doesn't have aftertouch. Period. I know I'm in a minority and always will be, but it's nice to see other folks discovering it. I can't wait to see all the kids out there discover MPE and somehow decide that Ableton invented it, bless their little pointed heads... but then use it and love it.

 

mike

 

DAMN right, Dr. Mike, ALL THE DAMN TIME!

 

Manny

People assume timbre is a strict progression of input to harmonics, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timbrally-wimbrally... stuff

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the Ensoniq process was capacitive-based, and inexpensive to implement.

 

Inductance based actually. And it was inexpensive to implement.

 

Capacitance based AT are quite common, before and after Ensoniq.

 

Seems to me the patent would have run out by now? Maybe someone could take that to the next level, and use it to make an MPE-friendly controller.

 

Yup the patent had expired. The question for the next level is capacitance or inductance?

 

One of the cleverest designs I've seen using inductance is the Buchla Marimba Lumina. Each mallet contains a tuned coil, triggers are accomplished with RF generators under each "key" then sensing the proximity of the mallet. The product triggers multiple sounds via different tuned coils in each mallet, and each key senses velocity and position (IE you can bend pitch by "sweeping" the mallet key). No moving parts, nothing to wear out.

 

I played a Marimba Lumina Gold at NAMM 2000 - really interesting instrument.

 

Now the Continuum... THERE'S an interesting controller. No clue what its trigger technology is but it is intriguing.

 

As to aftertouch's importance. I think it depends on how performance-oriented you are. It's great for real-time playing/recording. But if a synth is really awesome, doesn't have aftertouch, and you're mostly working in the studio, you can always draw in controller envelopes after the fact to alter the parameter you wish you could alter with aftertouch.

 

My MIDIBoard can assign any MIDI CC to aftertouch. Doesn't matter if the receiving synth does not support AT MIDI messages.

 

Not many MIDI controllers have that feature. It's one of the reasons I hung onto my MIDIBoard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Never used it. I always thought it was a little overrated.

 

This is kinda my attitude as well. Whether it is because none of my early synths had it, or because the first ones I had that did were Rolands with their unwieldy response, or because it mucks up the piano action of modern boards - I almost never need it.

 

Got me thinking, what do I own that has aftertouch?

 

Kawai 52" Upright piano no

Hammond A-100 no

Hohner Clavinet E7 no

Wurlitzer A 200 no

Rhodes Mark II 88 no

Korg Vox Continental no

Arp String Ensemble no

Yamaha CP 70 no

Yamaha CP 4 no

Moog Minimoog Voyager yes

 

So I do own 1 keyboard with aftertouch. Completely agree with Moe about the action on piano boards. Wish Kevin were around, he would have something to say about this. :laugh:

 

want to add that I am not trying to take sides here, just that different keyboard players have different requirements. Also most of my keyboards are old like me, before aftertouch was invented, which is why I don't list them in my signature. ;)

:nopity:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My first real synth JX10 has aftertouch. I almost always used it for subtle volume swell. Have to practically handstand to get it to trigger, though.

SY77 is one of the better synth key beds, the aftertouch is usually set to vibrato or pitchbend.

Fantom X7 is also very good AT; vibrato, pitchbend and FILTER! Oh yeah!

EX5"s AT triggers WAY too easy...no way to adjust it. Normally just turn it off to prevent accidental modulation.

Deepmind 12"s AT is hands down the most expressive and widely implemented MOD source in my arsenal. Midas guys really did some wonderful engineering with this thing.

Numa Compact 2X does AT vibrato on a few synth and guitar sounds. It"s okay; nothing special. But controlling certain synths on iOS is a blast. Nice feel.

Alesis Vortex does great vibrato AT with iOS.

REALLY miss AT on the MODX7. Foot pedal tied to the Superknob almost makes up for it...almost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Got me thinking, what do I own that has aftertouch?

As I alluded to earlier, I don't care about having AT in boards that are designed primarily for piano/organ kinds of sounds, which most of yours are. But unlike traditional keyboards, many other instruments are designed to allow the player to alter the sound *after* they play them, and if you want to emulate those sounds, you need a mechanism to do so. (Or similarly for artificial/synth sounds if there are ones where you want to be able to alter the note after playing it.) The question then is, what is the best mechanism for that? And to me, between not needing another hand/foot and also making it "feel" like you're playing the instrument rather than "operating" a device, AT is often best. So yeah, I wouldn't miss AT on your list of boards that don't have it either... no more than I would miss a mod wheel, which most of those instruments similarly don't have. But that's not really a rationale for saying that mod wheels are not very useful, either. Personally, I rarely use mod wheels, but I still think it's good that most boards where you might want them actually have them, for the times they end up being useful.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I seriously doubt I would have connected so deeply with my Voyager if not for its awesome fine-grained aftertouch implementation (and excellent keybed in general).

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1,

Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It kind of goes hand in hand with keybeds; waterfall vs. lipped, weighted vs. semi-weighted or synth. It depends on your needs; if your primarily an organ player you would want waterfall; primarily piano you would want weighted. Neither of them require AT. If you're a synth player then AT may be more important to you than a non-synth player. Back in the 80's and early 90's I did alot of synth 'stuff' and my Ensoniq boards with the PolyAT aided in playing alot. The last 15 years or so it has been mainly electro-mechanicals and acoustic piano so my need for AT has lessened along with my synth playing. My Kurz has AT (monophonic, not polyphonic) but I don't use it that much. One of the things I did notice about a week ago was when I was using midi-scope on my PC3 playing piano invokes "pressure" (AT) through normal playing. The piano doesn't respond to the pressure because AT isn't actually assigned to modulate anything in a piano patch but it was engaging none the less. So although I don't use pressure other than on a couple of patches the PC3's keybed interprets my playing as frequently using pressure even though it doesn't actually modulate anything.

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At least channel aftertouch is ESSENTIAL !

PolyAT is very welcome too,- but obviously EXTREMELY rare.

 

My old Rhodes MK80 doesn´t have AT,- but I like the action and it´s the only keyboard w/o AT I own.

 

In fact and since a long time, I look for something replacing the MK80,- offering "ftat top", 88 fully weighted keys,- but also 2 wheels or joystick, 4 inputs for momentary switches and CCpedals and at least channel aftertouch.

I fear I die before I´ll get this but also lost no hope for Kurzweil coming w/ a new flagship model where portability and weight isn´t main sales argument,- pro features instead.

Think Kurzweil Midiboard type formfactor (w/ flattop !), poly AT weighted action, ribbon controller input, all the stuff mentioned above AND 256 voice polyphony w/ the soundengines and user memory of FORTE and "onboard" haptics from PC4.

On the C4 I really like it has not only 9 sliders, but also 9 user programmable rotaries in addition,- not to forget to mention the buttons.

 

I can dream ...

 

A.C.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I seriously doubt I would have connected so deeply with my Voyager if not for its awesome fine-grained aftertouch implementation (and excellent keybed in general).

 

Rudi Linhard redesigned the after touch circuit board to make it respond smoothly from what was originally pretty much an on/off response. It was actually rejected by Moog for more than a year IIRC. I believe they finally offered it as an upgrade for a short while.

 

While the Voyager sound is controversial (no need to go there yet again) the controller capability is incredible for both midi and CV. Something only achievable with the old-school way of doing business. And with Bob Moog (and Rudi) that was the only way. 18+ years later Rudi is still providing support for the Voyager.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fascinating reading and in particular thank you Dr Mike for such a well-informed post! This all got me thinking about the history of my keyboards and what I liked/ disliked. I'm also thinking about all of the crappy keybeds/ actions out there that even with aftertouch, are just miserable to play.
Kurzweil Forte 7, PC3, PC4, Hydrasynth, Kronos 61, UltraNova, Rhodes, Clavinet D6, MiniMoog, GSI Burn, ELX112Ps, SpaceStation, Assorted Weapons
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This all got me thinking about the history of my keyboards and what I liked/ disliked. I'm also thinking about all of the crappy keybeds/ actions out there that even with aftertouch, are just miserable to play.

 

I never liked aftertouch with featherlight action keybeds. With some weight on the key, aftertouch just feels and responds better. It is OK with old 1970s Pratt Read keybeds but not lighter actions or a clone wheel keybed.

 

My favorite AT synth is my ARP ProSoloist. With pitch bend and volume (or filter) assigned to AT, I can get a natural sounding vibrato just by wiggling the key. I can't get that kind of response out of my other AT keybeds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Horses for courses. Not even sure why people are mentioning organs and pianos in this conversation. I turn off the expression pedal for piano patches too, if using a piano patch on a general purpose keyboard or a synth. The point of aftertouch is on synthesized sounds as well as samples of orchestral sounds and the like. It gives us something approximating the expressivity of a vibrating string or chamber (wind instrument), or the bounce of a struck membranophone.

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1,

Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me AT on a board is sort of like Sport Shift in the car. It has a time and place, which is not every time and every place. If I didn't have it, there would be roads I kind of wish I still did. And when I do...those roads are still the exception rather than the rule.

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not interested in anything "decent" that doesn't include aftertouch. I don't always use it, but there are times when nothing else will do. If you're a two handed player, aftertouch can be very handy. It's not always convenient or practical to use a pedal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Love a good aftertouch implementation for mono synth leads.

 

Aftertouch with chords just never felt right and sometimes cramps my hands. Expression pedal or mod wheel for that.

 

Globally adjustable sensitivity as well as a per patch off switch are key, so I dig Kurzweil's implementation.

I make software noises.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't tend to use factory patches, and I always assign AT to something useful or turn it off if not appropriate for the sound, plus my Voyager was my MIDI controller for studio work for a few years as it has a better MIDI implementation than the XK-1c (or the P12 that I had for a while). So I needed its excellent aftertouch when working with computer-hosted VI's and libraries. I also avoid block chords as much as I can, in favour of separate sounds as in standard orchestration. But the block chords can sometimes kick-start an arrangement.

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1,

Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Paul,

 

Everyone will have an opinion but as someone who once longed for aftertouch (my first board didn't have it), it's a lot less important than I realized. Especially now when there are so many other controllers available.

 

I still have two boards that have it, but I don't sweat it if it's absent. And I would never want it on a piano action (just my opinion but it can ruin the feel).

 

I mostly filter-out aftertouch when I'm recording MIDI, but I will use it on solo lines or wind emulations to help add some life to phrases.

 

Todd

Sundown

 

Working on: The Jupiter Bluff; Driven Away

Main axes: Kawai MP11 and Kurz PC361

DAW Platform: Cubase

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I must be a weirdo, but I prefer aftertouch on hammer actions by far. I haven"t really noticed any negative effects of having it beneath weighted keys. :idk:

 

I like how Kurzweil has it programmed to 'swell' on string patches. Very natural and it adds expressiveness. In addition to the uses I mentioned earlier in this thread, I also use it with electric guitars - simulating a tremolo or a little vibrato and such. Great on clean guitar chords.

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Yamaha DX-7 had aftertouch and a 61 note keyboard! Where as KORG"s opsix has 37 keys. I don"t see this as being a gigging keyboard much like the DX-7. So, KORG decided to forgo aftertouch. Had the OPSIX had a 61 keyboard, then maybe KORG would have added aftertouch? I"m not sure who the OPSIX is geared toward, but I"m sure people will buy it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Yamaha DX-7 had aftertouch and a 61 note keyboard! Where as KORG"s opsix has 37 keys. I don"t see this as being a gigging keyboard much like the DX-7. So, KORG decided to forgo aftertouch. Had the OPSIX had a 61 keyboard, then maybe KORG would have added aftertouch? I"m not sure who the OPSIX is geared toward, but I"m sure people will buy it.

 

I've never heard of a Korg or Yamaha keyboard that sells for under $2000 that has aftertouch. I don't know why. It's just always been this way.

 

I think the Elektron Digitone Keys is the only keyboard synth you can buy new for under $2000 that has both aftertouch and FM synthesis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've never heard of a Korg or Yamaha keyboard that sells for under $2000 that has aftertouch.

Maybe the Korg TR61 or Yamaha S30?

 

I think the Elektron Digitone Keys is the only keyboard synth you can buy new for under $2000 that has both aftertouch and FM synthesis.

Kurzweil PC4

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can certainly get aftertouch on even cheap controllers can't you? All the Roland A-Pros have them starting with the 37-key A300 which is around $250. I haven't checked out the other manufacturer's offerings but I can't imagine Roland is the only company with AT on their small controllers.

 

As I said, I barely ever need or use it but the times I do, I'm happy it's there. My old KX88 has it and I don't think it interferes or affects the keyboard's feel in any appreciable way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've never heard of a Korg or Yamaha keyboard that sells for under $2000 that has aftertouch.

Maybe the Korg TR61 or Yamaha S30?

 

I think the Elektron Digitone Keys is the only keyboard synth you can buy new for under $2000 that has both aftertouch and FM synthesis.

Kurzweil PC4

 

What are the prices that you recall for the Korg and Yamaha?

 

As for the PC4, at $1999 you are technically correct in that it is $1 under $2000. I applaud your subtle show of humor there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...