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How important is after touch?


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For me any professional synth over a cheap and simple mono-synth or a clone that never had aftertouch in the first place and has no real need for it should have aftertouch.

Then again the opsix has slim keys and to me that immediately stops me counting it as professional. For what it offers and given it does have 32 voices, to me that needs a full size keybed of a minimum of 49 keys, plus aftertouch would probably be very useful on a digital synth like this.. If full size keys take up to much space then make it a module.

Though I do have a GEM S2 so naturally I am used to high quality aftertouch and what it can offer the player.

Stuff: Roland:SH-201/U-110/S-330/TR-626/M-48 Akai: miniAK/S6000 Yamaha:DX9/HS8/xs7 Korg:05R/W/AX10G Alesis: Vortex MK1 CME: UF70 classic V2/WIDI Behringer: DSP2024Px2/UMC204HD/101/340/D/03/8 ESI:1010e
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It depends on the synth and how well aftertouch is implemented. On the DX-7 it was an important feature. Just look at all the artists who used it, like Chick Corea, for instance. Aftertouch was a very usable feature on FM synthesis. Which is why I'm not excited about the Opsix or the Nautilus.
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I just saw a review of the KORG OPSIX on Music Radar .com, and one of the downsides is? There is no after touch. How important is after touch? Or are you not concerned?

Aftertouch is not typical of low cost poly synths, so I think the reason it may have been of additional note here is that it is, in part, derived from a lineage that started with the Yamaha DX7, which did have aftertouch, meaning lack of aftertouch would be a limitation when trying to use this as a pseudo-DX7. (Though I suposed you could say the same thing about breath control.) Of course, you're also limited by the mini keyboard. But you can always drive the thing with a larger set of keys... including presumably one with aftertouch, if desired. (I'd be surprised if this did not respond to AT over MIDI.)

 

How important it is us up to the player. To some, not at all, to others, very. I think it adds a nice expressive feel compared to using a left hand controller or a pedal. It also has the advantage of letting you introduce modulation etc. without having to stop playing your left hand part (or do a possible dance of multiple pedals, which itself can be complicated by a searth of pedal inputs on teh board and/or a desire to play while standing).

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Had this very discussion in my head recently :)

 

Reason is, my pc361 key issues fixed themselves right when I had resolved to open it up and try to clean the keys (not fun). So I hooked it up to my computer rig, replacing the Modx7 that I was using.

 

Now, the pc361 action I like much more than the Modx7; it has more weight to it (more control), smoother and hey, aftertouch!

 

What I noticed though on many patches is that suddenly things are getting weird on me. Unwanted vibrato, pitch effects, filter cutoff changes etc. I wasn't trying to invoke aftertouch but it was happening, and so on some tracks I was having to erase the aftertouch messages after doing the recording.

 

I used to really enjoy aftertouch on my Virus, but despite the keyboard action being very similar between that Virus and the pc361, the aftertouch implementation "feels" quite different. On the Kurzweil, it's more abrupt like you fall off a cliff; I remember being able to ease into the Virus with much more control.

 

Bottom line, for home studio use I'm not sure I see it as a good thing for my style of playing and editing. I tend to write in controller messages afterward quite often with a mouse anyway if I want say a certain effect over two bars. If I use a physical control I'd rather use the mod wheel, so I can go in and map whatever it is I want to control to the mod wheel. I also have a Korg nanokontrol and a foot controller if I want more controls at once. Logic and other Daws expose a lot of parameters of the plugins so I don't really even need to map these to physical controls. I'm considering going into the Kurzweil and disabling it from sending aftertouch actually--I've used it productively somewhere near zero times since I hooked it up, and I've had to go and delete it from tracks 5-6 times.

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Had this very discussion in my head recently :)

 

Reason is, my pc361 key issues fixed themselves right when I had resolved to open it up and try to clean the keys (not fun). So I hooked it up to my computer rig, replacing the Modx7 that I was using.

 

Now, the pc361 action I like much more than the Modx7; it has more weight to it (more control), smoother and hey, aftertouch!

 

What I noticed though on many patches is that suddenly things are getting weird on me. Unwanted vibrato, pitch effects, filter cutoff changes etc. I wasn't trying to invoke aftertouch but it was happening, and so on some tracks I was having to erase the aftertouch messages after doing the recording.

 

I used to really enjoy aftertouch on my Virus, but despite the keyboard action being very similar between that Virus and the pc361, the aftertouch implementation "feels" quite different. On the Kurzweil, it's more abrupt like you fall off a cliff; I remember being able to ease into the Virus with much more control.

 

Bottom line, for home studio use I'm not sure I see it as a good thing for my style of playing and editing. I tend to write in controller messages afterward quite often with a mouse anyway if I want say a certain effect over two bars. If I use a physical control I'd rather use the mod wheel, so I can go in and map whatever it is I want to control to the mod wheel. I also have a Korg nanokontrol and a foot controller if I want more controls at once. Logic and other Daws expose a lot of parameters of the plugins so I don't really even need to map these to physical controls. I'm considering going into the Kurzweil and disabling it from sending aftertouch actually--I've used it productively somewhere near zero times since I hooked it up, and I've had to go and delete it from tracks 5-6 times.

The aftertouch invoking is adjustable. In Midi Mode, there is a "Pressure Map". You can adjust the pressure map so that it doesn't kick in so quickly, i.e. it takes more key pressure to invoke the aftertouch. Sounds as though yours is set to respond too quickly for your liking; adjust the pressure map. Page 10-3 in the manual.

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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Better to have it and not need it than the other way around, but truth be told I rarely use it.

 

I'm curious what the actual component cost is to manufacturers. I think they leave it out of the lower-tier boards to upsell you to the next model, same as with expression pedal jacks.

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Aftertouch is very important to me also. The OP6 is a easy-to-use FM implementation with additions I find very cool. These include filters, modular routing and multiple waveforms. However, I don't have room in my rigs for synths without aftertouch anymore. Any particular rig could be a combination of the keyboards I own, and I won't gig without aftertouch. So I will wait for the OP6 module. Or maybe Korg will release a more fully spec'd synth with a few synth engines like AL1 and Mod7 ... and something like the Korg Radias keybed, which has aftertouch.
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Back in my Ensoniq owning days I used to adjust rotary speeds with aftertouch; Ensoniq also had polyphonic aftertouch which was really cool. I don't know of many keyboards in todays world that employ polyphonic aftertouch; Ensoniq did it 30 years ago.

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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Paul beat me to starting this thread. :thu:

 

A few comments in other threads about the lack of AT being a deal-breaker left me wondering the importance of this feature.

 

I've had KBs with AT but rarely used it. I'm a mod wheel programmer and player when I need to express myself. :D

 

The feedback I'm reading makes AT seem like a flavor worth having in the rack somewhere next to the turmeric. :laugh::cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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Had this very discussion in my head recently :)

 

Reason is, my pc361 key issues fixed themselves right when I had resolved to open it up and try to clean the keys (not fun). So I hooked it up to my computer rig, replacing the Modx7 that I was using.

 

Now, the pc361 action I like much more than the Modx7; it has more weight to it (more control), smoother and hey, aftertouch!

 

What I noticed though on many patches is that suddenly things are getting weird on me. Unwanted vibrato, pitch effects, filter cutoff changes etc. I wasn't trying to invoke aftertouch but it was happening, and so on some tracks I was having to erase the aftertouch messages after doing the recording.

 

I used to really enjoy aftertouch on my Virus, but despite the keyboard action being very similar between that Virus and the pc361, the aftertouch implementation "feels" quite different. On the Kurzweil, it's more abrupt like you fall off a cliff; I remember being able to ease into the Virus with much more control.

 

Bottom line, for home studio use I'm not sure I see it as a good thing for my style of playing and editing. I tend to write in controller messages afterward quite often with a mouse anyway if I want say a certain effect over two bars. If I use a physical control I'd rather use the mod wheel, so I can go in and map whatever it is I want to control to the mod wheel. I also have a Korg nanokontrol and a foot controller if I want more controls at once. Logic and other Daws expose a lot of parameters of the plugins so I don't really even need to map these to physical controls. I'm considering going into the Kurzweil and disabling it from sending aftertouch actually--I've used it productively somewhere near zero times since I hooked it up, and I've had to go and delete it from tracks 5-6 times.

The aftertouch invoking is adjustable. In Midi Mode, there is a "Pressure Map". You can adjust the pressure map so that it doesn't kick in so quickly, i.e. it takes more key pressure to invoke the aftertouch. Sounds as though yours is set to respond too quickly for your liking; adjust the pressure map. Page 10-3 in the manual.

 

Thanks, I will play around with that! While I'm at it I might see about checking into the various other pc361 controls and using them to control things in the box. They likely already output cc messages, I'd just need to know what they are and possibly remap them.

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I will not buy a keyboard that doesn't have after touch.

:yeahthat:

 

Hi Paul! Lots of good answers here from people who play day-to-day, often professionally, and have significant experience behind them. Herewith a slightly more historic / academic perspective:

 

Pressure as a way to control expression after the onset of a note goes back at least 300 years. The clavichord, which played notes by bringing hammers down on strings, could produce upbends by pressing harder on the keys; this technique was actually notated on a few pieces written for it, although most players considered it a sign of sloppy technique. :D

 

Fast forward to the 1960s and pressure sensitivity was rediscovered, primarily due to a quirk in the design of the Mellotron and Chamberlin. If you pressed a key harder, you forced more tape surface onto the head, providing a change in volume, so you could do tremolo.

 

Not long after that, during the analog synth feature wars of the early 1970s, pressure sensors became extremely important as an element of a class of synth that I don't think ever got a name of its own...

 

Since mono synths were becoming a staple of keyboardists' rigs, which in jazz and rock were still predominated by the electric organ and/or electric piano, there was a real market for a synthesizer that fit well into that setup, both in physical size/shape and in playing technique. Ideally, such a synth:

 

- would take up a small slab of space roughly equivalent to the available surface on top of the main keyboard;

 

- any controls would be easily accessible and designed for quick use rather than involved tweaking, and should (where feasible) be reachable without having to reach PAST the keys;

 

- would feature a way to completely change sounds with the flick of a switch (presets, an idea taken from organ stops);

 

- and (here's the key point) if at all possible, it should be operable with only one hand, with minimal reliance on fancy acrobatics while the other hand was operating the other keyboard.

 

The result was a whole slew of synths with controls at the left of the short keyboard or under the manual itself, a design I personally find quite appealing and wish was in more use today.

 

Notable examples: the miniKORG 700 and 900PS, the Roland SH-1000 and SH-2000, the Elka Soloist 505, the Jen SX-2000, the Teisco (later Kawai) S100P, the Yamaha SY-1 and SY-2, the Moog Satellite and Minitmoog, and the ARP Explorer 1, Soloist, Pro Soloist, and Pro DGX. Many of these synths had a pressure sensor under the keys. This allowed for a variety of techniques including manual vibrato and tremolo to be applied without using one's spare hand to reach for a pitch bender or mod wheel or other knob-like product.

 

Terminology hadn't standardized yet, so those sensors were given different names by different makers: Moog called it the Force Bar, ARP the Touch Sensor, and Yamaha called the feature Aftertouch (vs. Initial Touch, which was key velocity). The Teisco's "Electronic Musical Instrument Effects Control" was licensed from ARP.

 

While not a lot of players used pressure sensors, they were very much on synth designers' minds throughout the 1970s and into the 1980s. One very important machine built with this in mind was the Yamaha CS-80, which featured a pressure sensor under each key for extremely nuanced control of polyphonic expression. This had been unnecessary before, as monophonic synths could operate with a single sensor stretched across the entire keybed.

 

When MIDI was being created, Yamaha was all in, and was probably the prime mover behind the inclusion of pressure sensing in the spec. The official names for the two types of pressure were Channel Pressure (one signal per MIDI Channel, i.e. monophonic), and Key Pressure (one signal per key, i.e. polyphonic). Most of the first MIDI synths out the door, like the Roland Jupiter-6 and Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, had no touch sensitivity at all... but the Yamaha DX7 sure did, and it rewrote the rule book for everyone else.

 

Overnight, the Yamaha term "aftertouch" overtook and submerged "pressure" to the point where the latter terminology is sometimes considered clunky, like saying "photocopier" instead of "Xerox". More importantly, during the initial flush of MIDI, a large number of keyboards began to feature it, including several with "polyphonic aftertouch": the Yamaha DX1 and DX5, the Sequential Circuits Prophet-T8, the Roland A-80, and the Kurzweil MIDIBoard. Later on, companies like Ensoniq and Generalmusic (hi Marzzz!) experimented with it as well.

 

It took a while for aftertouch to start dying out, but its death over the 1990s was definitely something that could be tracked. The Hammond organ was less and less popular, and more and more keyboardists came from a strictly piano background that had no need of aftertouch (and sometimes even considered it a sign of sloppy technique - sound familiar?). A velocity sensor on a key is easy and inexpensive to add; a pressure sensor under a keyboard, less so, and individual sensors per key were a technical nightmare that tended to create spongy keyboard feel that piano players hated.

 

Since poly aftertouch generated reams and reams of data that could easily overwhelm computers of the day, it was first to go. Software manufacturers often defaulted to ignoring it or even left it out of their DAW implementations entirely; it would only take the widespread acceptance of one major DAW that didn't even recognize the existence of poly aftertouch to effectively kill it, and that is exactly what happened. (For the record: thanks a HEAP, Ableton.)

 

Mono aftertouch took longer, but it too became thinner on the ground over time. The first chilling example (to me) was when Roland released the AX-1 keytar; it had no aftertouch, unlike its predecessor the AXIS (still the best keytar ever made - fight me, bitches), even though the one place you'd want extra expressiveness under one hand was a damn KEYTAR. By the late 1990s, Craig Anderton and I would run into each other in the Hilton lobby at NAMM and chat, with a perennial topic being the current state of aftertouch in the industry. We weren't afraid it would vanish, but that it would become a sign of much more expensive keyboards that not many folks would want.

 

So what changed? Computers got faster, USB came along, and materials engineering got more reliable and affordable. Suddenly aftertouch, and then even poly aftertouch, became not only feasible but easy, and it began reappearing all over the place. With the advent of the CME Xkey, poly aftertouch became "a thing" again, and not long after that, voices in the wilderness like Haken and Linn began to attract kindred spirits and MPE went from a pipe dream attached to certain esoteric controllers to a widely accepted standard. By 2020, aftertouch was back basically everywhere, and poly aftertouch and MPE were, if not universal, rapidly becoming so, as they were promoted or added for the first time to DAWs everywhere. (For the record: about TIME, Ableton.) Pretty soon, only super-cheap keybeds didn't offer it.

 

Speaking personally, I come directly from the era of the ARP ProDGX atop a Hammond A-100. As an organist rather than pianist growing up, I have relatively little fine dynamic nuance in either hand, and I am actually more likely than most to dial down or entirely disable velocity sensitivity on my synth patches. More importantly, I use aftertouch all the damn time. ALL THE DAMN TIME. It is more important to me than velocity, than pitch and mod wheels, than anything else, and I have neither the room nor the patience for any keyboard in my rig, anywhere, that doesn't have aftertouch. Period. I know I'm in a minority and always will be, but it's nice to see other folks discovering it. I can't wait to see all the kids out there discover MPE and somehow decide that Ableton invented it, bless their little pointed heads... but then use it and love it.

 

***

 

So if it's so important, why would it be left off a keyboard like the opsix, or any of the other "logue" keyboards (minilogue, wavestate)? Especially since their forebears (DX7, Wavestation) all had it and relied on it heavily?

 

I am FUCKED if I know.

 

Korg claims cost management, but skeptical Metlay is skeptical. Samson makes a 4-octave MIDI controller with a beautiful aftertouch sensor for well under $200, as do Arturia and others. The CME Xkey costs under $200 and does POLY aftertouch. So is cost really that much of a factor here? If so, then I will simply say that I think Korg picked the wrong place to hit a price point. (This is based on what goes on inside my own mind, which admittedly is a dark and scary place best avoided at night.)

 

The case and hardware on these Korg boxes is very solid and probably the main source of unit cost, but charging $800 for a keyboard that doesn't have aftertouch is almost an insult, especially considering the TYPE of keyboardist who will need it. To my mind (see above), lack of aftertouch defines a synth as "cheap". Many folks would happily pay $900 or $1000 for a synth identical to the Korgs but with aftertouch, but $800 for one without?

 

Bring on the xd versions, say I. At least they all understand aftertouch, including poly aftertouch, via MIDI.

 

Except the minilogue xd, which doesn't. Um...

 

Okay, I'll shut up now. Thanks for reading.

 

mike

Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) :D

Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant

Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1

 

clicky!:  more about me ~ my radio station (and my fam) ~ my local tribe ~ my day job ~ my bookmy music

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Thank you for that Mike!

My pleasure, Paul. Explore it on your own if you have a keyboard that has it, and see where (and if) it fits into how you play. That's the only thing that matters in the end: does it help YOU make better music?

Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) :D

Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant

Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1

 

clicky!:  more about me ~ my radio station (and my fam) ~ my local tribe ~ my day job ~ my bookmy music

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I have said this dozens of times but will keep saying it: for someone like me who comes from an acoustic background, playing and learning many instruments, aftertouch is literally the ONLY controller available on modern keyboards that gives me something approximating an organic sense of expression. As long as the MIDI spec is implemented well and each discrete value can be obtained and incremented or decremented consistently with high sensitivity to pressure. It is somewhat akin to a woodwind mouthpiece and embouchure.

 

I rarely ever use mode wheels or expression pedals anymore, as they are both too coarse and missing tactile feedback, especially at a detailed level. A long and sensitive ribbon controller is superior to either, but is still at least one level disconnected from the feel of a key being depressed, wiggled, bounced, released slowly or quickly, half-released and then depressed again.

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I have said this dozens of times but will keep saying it: for someone like me who comes from an acoustic background, playing and learning many instruments, aftertouch is literally the ONLY controller available on modern keyboards that gives me something approximating an organic sense of expression. As long as the MIDI spec is implemented well and each discrete value can be obtained and incremented or decremented consistently with high sensitivity to pressure. It is somewhat akin to a woodwind mouthpiece and embouchure.

 

I rarely ever use mode wheels or expression pedals anymore, as they are both too coarse and missing tactile feedback, especially at a detailed level. A long and sensitive ribbon controller is superior to either, but is still at least one level disconnected from the feel of a key being depressed, wiggled, bounced, released slowly or quickly, half-released and then depressed again.

And THIS is the poetry lacking in my seminar. Thanks, Mark!

Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) :D

Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant

Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1

 

clicky!:  more about me ~ my radio station (and my fam) ~ my local tribe ~ my day job ~ my bookmy music

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Never used it. I always thought it was a little overrated.

 

This is kinda my attitude as well. Whether it is because none of my early synths had it, or because the first ones I had that did were Rolands with their unwieldy response, or because it mucks up the piano action of modern boards - I almost never need it.

 

Having said that, I look forward to truly useful and controllable poly AT on Osmose.

Moe

---

 

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One thing that did surprise me was that the ASM Hydrasynth only has 49 keys given the fact that it's the first full size poly AT keyboard in a while. Of course we now have Behringer having a stab at making their own poly AT keyboard that will at minimum be fitted to the DS-80 and hopefully to the Ub-Xa too, and it will be 61 keys!

 

Adding to the list of keyboards with poly AT don't forget Elka with their MK55/88 controllers which I would assume have the same mechanism as the S2/3 given (as I understand) the S series development was started by Elka before Generalmusic acquired the company

Stuff: Roland:SH-201/U-110/S-330/TR-626/M-48 Akai: miniAK/S6000 Yamaha:DX9/HS8/xs7 Korg:05R/W/AX10G Alesis: Vortex MK1 CME: UF70 classic V2/WIDI Behringer: DSP2024Px2/UMC204HD/101/340/D/03/8 ESI:1010e
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Count me among the folks for whom aftertouch is essential. I only tolerate its absence on pianos, and that grudgingly.

 

Since I tend to be heavy-handed on light keybeds, I too have experienced initial unwanted vibrato or tuning problems.

(I use AT to bend guitar patches up by a small amount, without LFO, so I can control the whole sound.) The solution

to that -- on my PC361 at least -- is to use a FUN or an ASR envelope to delay AT execution for the first few milliseconds.

-Tom Williams

{First Name} {at} AirNetworking {dot} com

PC4-7, PX-5S, AX-Edge, PC361

 

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Bottom line, for home studio use I'm not sure I see it as a good thing for my style of playing and editing.

I like it either way, but it's more important for live performance where I'm less likely to be able to spare my other hand.

 

What I noticed though on many patches is that suddenly things are getting weird on me. Unwanted vibrato, pitch effects, filter cutoff changes etc...I'm considering going into the Kurzweil and disabling it from sending aftertouch

You should easily be able to edit a program so that AT is not enabled for that patch.

 

I will not buy a keyboard that doesn't have after touch.

A covid diversion is playing with different rig setups. I did a 6-board parallel stack that included, as five of them, Kurzweil PC4, Nord Stage 3, Roland AX-Edge, Korg PA1000, and Nord Lead 3... and realized that I had a glorious 5 boards with aftertouch in the rig! I don't insist on it everywhere, though. I am quite content not having aftertouch in the SV1, PX5S, or my recently acquired Nord C1 (I didn't realize how much I'd missed having a real two manual organ!).

 

gives me something approximating an organic sense of expression

Yes... the way I've explained it before, for those who have some experience plaing guitar, is that aftertouch feels more like doing vibrato with your fret finger, it is organically integrated into the technique, whereas a mod wheel is more like using a whammy bar... it's an effect that is "detached" from the actual playing of the note, and feels more like a calculated afterthought than a natural expression.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I'm a gigging player. The thing that really makes me regret purchasing my MODX7 is the lack of aftertouch.

 

If you are playing in a band context, for example chords left hand and a lead / solo right hand, you're out of hands regarding adding expression (okay - maybe you still have one foot free for an expression pedal - if the instrument allows it - but that might be too challenging for the brain ;-) ).

 

Nord's way of implementing Aftertouch is great IMO. You can easily make aftertouch control everything. That's one of the reasons I'll never part with my Nord Stage.

 

If you are a lead synth - only act, backed up by, let's say Snarky Puppy...., you could use your left hand for expression. If you choose to take your opsix to the gig. ;-)

 

Enjoy making music, play the gear you have.

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I've been gigging since 1981. When I started gigging with MIDI controllers in 1989, aftertouch became an essential tool. Vibrato control. Pitch bend. Sforzando expressions. Poly aftertouch is great for fading in/out strings and choirs. My MIDIBoard has a feature that allows me to create cymbal swells and snare rolls over MIDI by using aftertouch to retrigger a held key and send out multiple MIDI note messages.

 

You better believe it is important in my work.

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