any of you Rhodes aficionados played thru a Brownface?

[clusterchord]

hi chaps,

 

i use two amps for my mk1 and mk2. early silverface twin or suitcase bottom from the mk2. twin has its trademark high headroom, sparkly but sweet top, mid scoop typical of silver/blackface designs. and just enough tube colour. suitcase is darker, cleaner, and stereo with opto trem.

 

so, been reading about brownface amps (brown/blonde tolex era), and a few Rhodes players who swear by these. general idea is, slightly earlier but gradual breakup, warm mids no scoop, and that tube harmonic tremolo (with the larger models like pro, concert, super, bandmaster etc). been thinking of picking one up to add another tube flavor for keys, guitars whatever. strictly studio affair.

 

 

was wondering if any of you old cats have used a brownface circuit with Rhodes or other keys, and what are your thoughts ?

 

thanks

[TommyRude]

Never used one, never really heard of them so googled an article here

 

Sounds pretty cool to me, would love to hear one. Probably would sound great for the apps too.

[Ross Ward]

Rhodes, no. Wurly, yes â and it is glorious.

[mvanmanen]

I have an early 1960s brownface Fender Pro. It does sound great with my Fender Rhodes....but honestly I prefer my blackface Fender Showman with 15" JBL cabinet.

That said, my Fender Pro is my all time favourite Clavinet amp.

[Mark Schmieder]

Interesting; I didn't realize there was more than a facelift difference on the browns and blondes, until we got to the black and silver eras.

 

I have a '59 Bassman LTD but it's a tweed, as is my Champ reissue. My Deluxe Reverb is a blackface edition. I despise the silverfaces (harsh/bright).

 

Given the timeframe of when the Rhodes was released, I'm guessing it was mostly used with blackfaces and silverfaces on most 60's/70's recordings.

 

I'm not sure if Fender has done any authentic reissues of brown/blonde era amps vs. brown/blonde facings on blackface and tweed era reissues?

[KuruPrionz]

Interesting; I didn't realize there was more than a facelift difference on the browns and blondes, until we got to the black and silver eras.

 

I have a '59 Bassman LTD but it's a tweed, as is my Champ reissue. My Deluxe Reverb is a blackface edition. I despise the silverfaces (harsh/bright).

 

Given the timeframe of when the Rhodes was released, I'm guessing it was mostly used with blackfaces and silverfaces on most 60's/70's recordings.

 

I'm not sure if Fender has done any authentic reissues of brown/blonde era amps vs. brown/blonde facings on blackface and tweed era reissues?

 

First, no affiliation of any kind. The one Allen amp I owned I bought used. I did have a brief email conversation with him, he responded promptly, politely and to the point.

 

Check out David Allen's amps. He's got a line of pre-built and kits. ALL of his amps are evolutions of Fender designs. I've owned one and played a few, excellent quality throughout.

One advantage is every amp can be had as a combo or a head - if you already have a great cabinet you could just get a head.

 

There are updated versions from all three major eras of Fender vintage amplifiers - Tweed, Brownface and Blackface. Not sure if he makes a Silverface update, those usually only sound great if you turn them up way too loud!!!!!

 

http://www.allenamps.com/index.html

[clusterchord]

thanks for the answers.

 

i thought of clones like Allan, Victoria etc but not sure thats the way, for several reasons:

 

1. most that sell finished amps are small operations and dont have distro in eu (where im at)

2. their prices enter the range where i could get original fender. yet have poor resale value. early 60s fender otoh..

3. most clones are of smaller brownface amps, that had bias trem (deluxe, vibrolux or princeton), not the harmonic tremolo i'd like

4. getting one build locally from best parts like mercury magnetics etc... same as point 2.

 

 

 

 

Interesting; I didn't realize there was more than a facelift difference on the browns and blondes, until we got to the black and silver eras.

 

I have a '59 Bassman LTD but it's a tweed, as is my Champ reissue. My Deluxe Reverb is a blackface edition. I despise the silverfaces (harsh/bright).

 

Given the timeframe of when the Rhodes was released, I'm guessing it was mostly used with blackfaces and silverfaces on most 60's/70's recordings.

 

I'm not sure if Fender has done any authentic reissues of brown/blonde era amps vs. brown/blonde facings on blackface and tweed era reissues?

 

yes, they say its like a transitional type. mids like tweed, but later breakup, tops cleaner. no mid scoop like black/silver.

 

 

about silverfaces, i presume you mean the ear splitting high mids and presence. reason why i got my sf twin is it has none of that. orig 72 modded to ab763 circuit. and top is just glorious. not tilted or harsh at all.

 

 

fender didn't do straight brownface circuit reissue all these years. well until recent chris stapleton brown princeton. but on a/b it sounds nothing like the old. bright like many of their reissues. i cant say im in love with any of the RI. best blackface amp i ever heard was a 66 bassman cranked on 15" with a les paul. even tho im not a guitar player (tho i sometimes produce guitars) i pissed my pants.

 

I have an early 1960s brownface Fender Pro. It does sound great with my Fender Rhodes....but honestly I prefer my blackface Fender Showman with 15" JBL cabinet.

That said, my Fender Pro is my all time favourite Clavinet amp.

 

thats interesting to hear. i presume Pro goes into breakup earlier, and showman is more open and similar to twin with ton more headroom. i'm thinking of picking up either brown Pro or Concert, and fitting a larger Vibrasonic output transformer - thats what ive read some have done to accomodate more traditional rhodes sound.

[KuruPrionz]

 

I have an early 1960s brownface Fender Pro. It does sound great with my Fender Rhodes....but honestly I prefer my blackface Fender Showman with 15" JBL cabinet.

That said, my Fender Pro is my all time favourite Clavinet amp.

 

thats interesting to hear. i presume Pro goes into breakup earlier, and showman is more open and similar to twin with ton more headroom. i'm thinking of picking up either brown Pro or Concert, and fitting a larger Vibrasonic output transformer - thats what ive read some have done to accomodate more traditional rhodes sound.

 

A big part of the headroom with the Showman is the JBL speaker, much more efficient so the amp does not need to be turned up as much. Also, a Showman cabinet is closed back, a Brownface Pro combo is open back. The difference in bass response just from the difference in cabinet is significant. Which is why I suggest a head, it allows you to chose the speaker/cabinet that works best for what you are doing.

 

I wouldn't know, having never been there - but I believe you when you say that things are different in Europe. At this point the only tube amps I've kept are a converted Hammond amp - a Fender 5D3 Tweed clone with some tweaks, and a converted hi-fi amp - a clone of a 1958 Vox AC15 tone cut circuit with an EF86 preamp tube. Both are heads, both were inexpensive and built by skilled amp techs. I just got lucky to be honest. I've never tried keyboards through either of them, I play guitar. I like this forum, lots of new ideas for me to ponder.

[mvanmanen]

I completely agree regarding so much of the sound having to do with the speaker and cabinet. I like a very uncompressed sound for Rhodes and also like to scoop the mids.

 

The do find that a Clavinet really interacts with the Pro in a musical way which is probably a consequence of the vibrato and earlier breakup. Put a Moogerfooger in front of it or a nice wah pedal and its pure bliss....

[The Real MC]

Separate amp head and cabinet is the way to go. I started down that road while developing my guitar playing.

 

I've heard a SF Twin Reverb with that ice pick tone. That can be due to incorrect speakers and/or a bad amp. SF amps have a bad reputation but there are good ones out there. I studied schematics and learned that the Dual Showman Reverb is the head version of the Twin Reverb, exact same amp (and a lot cheaper!). I found a very clean specimen that still had the original RCA tubes and it doesn't have the ice pick sound, very smooth sweet Fender tone. Experimenting with speakers my favorites were the Celestion Alnico Blues and the 75w guitar speakers. The former are low wattage; four of them would still not be hefty enough for ensemble playing and they would be expensive. I opted for four of the 75w speakers and have been happy with the sound.

 

My REAL favorite amp with Rhodes is an old 1963 Selmer "croc-skin" Twin 30 Trutone with original Celestion alnico G12s (same as the alnico blues). You will not see very many in the US as they were a british amp that had no distribution in the US. I was lucky to find one and liked it with guitar, but WOW did it sound great with Rhodes. It's not a gigging amp but is great for recording.

[zxcvbnm098]

I remember in the late 70's seeing a local band playing out, and the guy playing the Rhodes was using a mid-70's tweed Peavey 2x12 amp that sounded fantastic. I believe those amps were tube power section but SS preamp (like the Music Man's of the day?), but it sounded fantastic.

[danstein]

I have a SF Twin Reverb that I used to use in back in the days when I dragged my Rhodes out to gigs. It has EV speakers, and the amp was rewired, removing the master volume among other mods and improvements. It does not have the ice pick tone mentioned above - but it does weigh about 100 lbs with the EVs!! And even with the low Rhodes output, turning the channel volume above about 2 will peel paint from the walls. Great for clean, transparent Rhodes tone.

 

My favorite amp for studio use is a '60's Silvertone 1483. It doesn't have a ton of power, but incredible tone and breaks up beautifully at recording volumes. Most guitarists who have come in to record at my studio have tried to buy it, steal it, or kill me for it. Unfortunately, it doesn't have a tremolo circuit, so if I want that I have to use a pedal.

[analogholic]

Hi Tomislav!!"

What took you so long?

 

I have to 'join the choir' here and speak about the importance of the speaker.

 

In a combo you could have a great amp but a speaker

that won"t by far be optimal for Rhodes...

 

We all have different tastes but....

 

My first 'tube encounter' was with a Laney VC-30

class A combo. It sounded like shit as the speaker couldn"t

handle the frequency range of the Rhodes.

(Freddan, the great Rhodes technician/historian from the Rhodes Supersite personally likes bass amps with Rhodes for that very same reason)

 

Anyway, so I disconnected the speaker from the laney and plugged its amp to an old JBL PA speaker which my dad used in the 70"s when gigging.

I almost fell off my chair...what a sound!!!

 

So I tried a couple of amp heads which the different guitarists I played with used themselves.

 

Also a 20 watt brown face fender head....

Awesome distorted sound but too early beak up

 

Couple of years ago I went to a dudes rehearsal space

Guitarist and TOTAL sound maniac in the highest regard

Yes he has a voltage regulator which he adjust for his 20

something amps to make them sound the best

 

So I brought my NE3 with me...

 

He was scratching his head a little wondering where

we should start.

Then he digs out a weird amp looking like it was

built in the DDR during the sixties

'I have a feeling about this one' he says....

 

So we hook up the Nord to it and the amp to a big

old Hagström closed back bass cab with two Alnico 15"s

IIRC....

 

The sound just blew me away!!!

Couldn"t believe my ears and my hands.

Sound was incredible!!! The stone dead Nord samples

where alive and kicking big time.

After a coupe of minutes I said, I wanna buy the amp.

 

Turned out it was a CMI...a handwired 70" 100% Marshall

Lead & Bass under a different branding (Like also Park etc)

This Marshall sounds very different from all the Marshall"s

I"ve tried before. It"s doesn"t have that dirty typical Marshall sound but more of a fender...but when pushed then comes distorsion into Jon Lord territory

Unfortunately I should have bought the cab too...

Because they were a match made in heaven.

But it was just too big and heavy (giant is a better word)

 

I"m thinking of finding a little bass cab for it like the

small Mark Bass cabs...we"ll see....

[MikeT156]

It is my understanding that the Fender Rhodes pianos were tested through Fender Twin Reverb amps before they left the factory back in the dark ages.

 

I owned a couple of Rhodes pianos over the years. The first one was an early 70's Fender Rhodes stage piano that I played through a Kustom AMP that had TWO Tower speaker cabinets that had 2 15" speakers and a Large HF Horn in both cabinets, That amp was the only way I could even be Heard in a rock band that had 2 guitar players, bass, and drums, I really didn't care for the Stage Piano. It didn't have anything but a volume and bass boost pot on the front. No way to vary the sound. I replaced the Rhodes with a Lawrence Audio Acoustic piano that had pickups installed to plug into an amp. It was the first decent real piano I could find to use in a band. I used the same Amp that I used for the Rhodes, It was big improvement over the Rhodes for a guitar based rock band.

 

After I retired from playing in bands, my main instrument was a Yamaha Electric Grand Piano, Being that I Played a lot of Billy Joel songs back in the late seventies, being that I was doing a solo act, I decided to buy a Rhodes Suitcase Piano for my live show. Its a Mark I. Suitcase piano. stereo speakers. Volume, Treble and Bass pots, Tremolo. I plugged the output into my PA System. My PA was had JBL speakers and a long throw high frequency horn that would cover the highs with a crisp clear sound without being too bright, I powered the PA with a Crown PS2 250 watt power amp. The PA was clear as a bell and was strong enough to play outside gigs that could be heard over long distances. A fellow musician heard my show at a festival at the popular gin mill one night. He told me it was "The best sounding Rhodes Piano he ever heard". That was quite compliment from him. He did point out that he caught a few of the mistakes I made that the audience didn't notice.

 

I still have that Rhodes Suitcase piano in my music room.

 

 

Mike T.