At the breaking point for live rig size

[EricBarker]

I just played a streaming gig last night, headlining with a few other bands. And I realized my rig has just become too big to setup quickly. I added a PolyBoog a month back along with my laptop workstation, Mojo61, Seaboard, and Trumpet. It's a dream to play, but it takes about 30mins to setup at full tilt, and that's with band mates' help bringing in gear. For years I was a single 88-key banger for just that reason. Then I learned the joy of having multiple keyboards at my fingers, and it's addictive. But for a small live show, it's just ridiculous. The signal routing is the crazy part, I must have more than 25 cables to hook up in all. I'm trying to figure out ways of streamlining like always using cable ties, and using multiple gig bags for different boards, but I haven't found the holy grail yet. I'm thinking of relegating the Boog to studio and large gigs... but man is it a dream to play!

[Bobadohshe]

This is why so far I just haven't been able to justify adding my laptop or a third board to my regular top 40 rig. That and stage real estate and schlep. I wish I could but the extra factor of cables and bits and bobs and management of all those pieces is such a PITA. But it's FUN when you have it all set up, it's true!

[David Emm]

Set-up time is always a factor to consider, but at this point, its the delicate jacks that would worry me the most. It'd be a nicer world if everything had the strength of an XLR connector, especially the USB lines and 8 mm jacks. Troubleshooting those when they croak is often a major bear. I'd have to sniff your rig, hear you play and only then imperiously decree whether or not its worth the 30 min.

 

If you can devise a sensible wiring harness for the computer aspects in particular, please share. I'm not 100% at it, but he who labels both ends of a cord is king, or at least a knight.

[Mykhailo]

I must have more than 25 cables to hook up in all. I'm trying to figure out ways of streamlining like always using cable ties, and using multiple gig bags for different boards, but I haven't found the holy grail yet. I'm thinking of relegating the Boog to studio and large gigs... but man is it a dream to play!

 

I"ve always dug the aesthetic of players who can get it done with just a single board. With my main gig, I"m blessed to have a crew, but even with a just a two board setup with a digital accordion, there are still quite a few cables to be loomed. Once covid is over, for gigs outside my main gig, I am thinking of trying to find a decent 88 note 'all in one' solution.

[EricBarker]

If you can devise a sensible wiring harness for the computer aspects in particular, please share.

 

Thankfully it's USB-C, which I trust far more than USB-A, and I have good quality cables with no adaptors (directly C -> B). No need to label, they are different jacks on either end. I specifically use an Arturia Keylab88 which has a built-in laptop tray, this simplifies things and makes one less part to fail (laptop stand). I purposefully don't use an interface and come right out of the headphone jack with a L-adaptor (less pressure on the jack). I don't trust interfaces live, if they glitch or come unplugged it will reboot the entire system. I've considered it, but my good sense tells me otherwise, and I've actually never had a failure in over 10 years of constant live gigging. I carry multiple 1/8" cables with me in case one goes bad. Usually when they age it's not catastrophic, but I'll start to get hum.

 

Of all things, and this may be purely good luck, but my laptop rig has failed me less than hardware. The separation of synth from controller has provided a level of troubleshooting that you don't get with a built-in unit. I never considered this when I started, but it has been an asset. I can very quickly determine which part of the signal path isn't working and concentrate on just that area. I've had power supplies fail on hardware and been SoL, but have been able to slog through a set on battery power if a laptop adaptor goes (with fingers crossed, of course). I've had each happen once, the laptop wins. I'm not saying it's better, but there are some unexpected advantages. I've had very good experience with it.

 

I should mention that the laptop workstation is the heart of my rig, and is about 60% of my playtime. All Acoustic pianos, polysynths, and orchestral sounds are played through this, just like it was a Kronos or Montage. The extras are the Mojo, Seaboard, and Boog, which I can do without in a pinch. That's not going away anytime soon, I trust it with my life and it's been good to me.

[AnotherScott]

It's always a balance between more playing pleasure vs. increased shleppage and setup/breakdown time. I keep thinking about doing more of the former, but when push comes to shove, I almost always end up with a rig that emphasizes the latter.

 

I am thinking of trying to find a decent 88 note 'all in one' solution.

My pick for that would be Kurzweil PC4.

[Mykhailo]

It's always a balance between more playing pleasure vs. increased shleppage and setup/breakdown time. I keep thinking about doing more of the former, but when push comes to shove, I almost always end up with a rig that emphasizes the latter.

 

I am thinking of trying to find a decent 88 note 'all in one' solution.

My pick for that would be Kurzweil PC4.

 

just might do that...I am cheap, so my eye was looking towards a used pc3K8, but this time I may go new. Thanks for the recommendation.

[AnotherScott]

PC3K8 is a nice choice too, it has a nicer action. But if the idea is to minimize shleppage, there's a huge difference between 29 lbs and 54 lbs. Probably even more than it seems because, if you're moving the stuff yourself, you may get by with a lightweight, light duty carrying bag for a 29 lb board, but may need a more substantial (heavier) case for a 54 lb board, you could easily be topping 70 lbs. PC4 also has the FM synth, updated sound set, more programmable front panel controls, 8x as much user sample memory, and the nice screen with the updated interface. (And as for your cheapness, if you want a deal on a PC4, I think I'm probably going to get the forthcoming 76-key version and sell my 88... ;-) )

[nursers]

 

I have good quality cables with no adaptors (directly C -> B).

 

Eric, interested in which ones you've bought? I still don't see a lot of options for C -> B cables and always interested in what people are using.

[Mykhailo]

(And as for your cheapness, if you want a deal on a PC4, I think I'm probably going to get the forthcoming 76-key version and sell my 88... ;-) )

 

 

Need gigs to come back before I can make that move, but good to know!

[BbAltered]

This is why I am so excited for the addition of onboard DA converters in keyboards: one usb cable connects keyboard and laptop, and keyboard audio out to the mixer/speaker, and that all there is to it. One keyboard makes easy set up; the laptop supplies all the exotic sounds not present on the keyboard.

 

My next rig is a Roland RD-2000 plus laptop loaded with a decent virtual Hammond and Omnisphere.

[MikeT156]

Back in the Seventies, before the invention of DAW's, workstations, portable computers. and extra feet and hands, I use to carry EVERYTHING. Two roadies AND a pre-shown early setup to make sure everything was setup and connected properly, and enough time to do a sound check of my PA before the audience showed up. All too often, clubs did not open early enough to set up and do a sound check. Worse, when it was time to break down, wrap up cables and pack out, the people that were tending bar all night were tired and wanted me to get out so they could lock up.

 

People that are NOT musicians have no clue what is required by musical acts and often the club owners were insensitive to not only the above, but how much my equipment cost and my ability to keep my equipment from being stolen when Schlepping in and out of the club. I had some of my equipment stolen more than once. Sine owners and clubs that didn't care about MY requirements, the only thing they were interested in is if I drew a crowd, didn't play too loud, so they made money. One by one, I kept scratching clubs off my play list. It got old.

 

As modern workstations became available.I retired most of my KB's and used the 16 track internal sequencer to create song sequences, the sampler, and sample playback features, and USB drives to store my songs and sounds, It was the biggest improvement to equipment in decades. I still have my Yamaha Motif ES8 which did a great job of being my workstation,and it NEVER failed me in the years I carried that KB around to do shows. As far as sounds, Yamaha had plenty of great sounds that satisfied my requirements that made my songs sound close to the classic rock songs I played. But you have to be flexible and compromise exact sounds for something close enough for the unwashed masses that don't know the difference.

 

I made sure that I sent clubs and private parties emails or letters specifying my requirements. Those that ignored my requirements were scratched off my play list. As my play list got shorter, it became obvious that playing live gigs I got was not worth it, so I retired. I'd rather play music for personal edification rather than spending my time practicing and reviewing all my sounds, learning new songs to keep my show fresh and entertaining. Non Musicians don't know what it takes to do what we do. It was fun for a lot of years, but like me, it got old.

 

Big name acts call the shots and have huge contracts. Those of us that don't, have to separate the idiots from people willing to accommodate us within reason.

 

 

Mike T.

[zxcvbnm098]

PC3K8 is a nice choice too, it has a nicer action. But if the idea is to minimize shleppage, there's a huge difference between 29 lbs and 54 lbs. Probably even more than it seems because, if you're moving the stuff yourself, you may get by with a lightweight, light duty carrying bag for a 29 lb board, but may need a more substantial (heavier) case for a 54 lb board, you could easily be topping 70 lbs. PC4 also has the FM synth, updated sound set, more programmable front panel controls, 8x as much user sample memory, and the nice screen with the updated interface. (And as for your cheapness, if you want a deal on a PC4, I think I'm probably going to get the forthcoming 76-key version and sell my 88... ;-) )

 

Scott, what is the keybed on the 76? If t was discussed, I hadn't seen it. Mideli? Or Fatar?

[EricBarker]

Eric, interested in which ones you've bought? I still don't see a lot of options for C -> B cables and always interested in what people are using.

 

Nothing fancy, and pretty inexpensive, but they've been pretty sturdy for the past few years and I've never seen them develop any wear or tear. They have nice solid metal jacks that make good connection. They come in different lengths. I'm considering heat-shrinking 3 of them together:

https://www.amazon.com/CableCreation-Printer-Compatible-Printers-Aluminum/dp/B0769DMN7R/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=USB+C+to+B&qid=1604301653&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzN05UR1g0VFE4TElRJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzMzNjA2NFpQTlBJTE9BTkU5JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAwMDE2OTMxQk5ZTUhIVEkyMUNFJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ

[Jim Alfredson]

It's always a balance between more playing pleasure vs. increased shleppage and setup/breakdown time. I keep thinking about doing more of the former, but when push comes to shove, I almost always end up with a rig that emphasizes the latter.

 

I am thinking of trying to find a decent 88 note 'all in one' solution.

My pick for that would be Kurzweil PC4.

 

I agree. The PC4 is a BEAST.

[CEB]

There is two issues. 1) Transportation and 2) setup.

 

As far as setup the difference between 1 board and 3 boards is minimal. There is a stand, pedalboard, rack and a snake. The difference is how many boards you throw on the stand. What kills me is extraneous doo-dads... off board effects, tablets, computers, vocoder crap, UPS, etc.... all the small things. There are a lot of things I would enjoy using but I don"t like off board processors and the D-05. That stuff kills me. You just have to put a patch panel of the front of the rack and think your snake through. IEMs help also. Redco is my friend

 

Transportation is just the opposite. ð There is room for doo-dads but boards are too big and heavy.

 

[Mykhailo]

Anyone have any live clips of someone doing a set with a PC4 and making use of it"s multitimbrality?

[CEB]

I can"t even find a video demonstrating quick access slots. ð

 

I may pull the trigger on a PC4 this week. Rehearsals is when shelpage is most killer. GigsI don"t have to carry much. The band takes care of the 'old man". The Kronos is heavier than hell.

[Mykhailo]

Just editing this as I see there is already a separate PC4 thread going which I will jump over to...

[AnotherScott]

Scott, what is the keybed on the 76? If t was discussed, I hadn't seen it. Mideli? Or Fatar?

Medeli, though since it's an action not known to be used in any other board, no one can comment yet on its feel.

[nursers]

Eric, interested in which ones you've bought? I still don't see a lot of options for C -> B cables and always interested in what people are using.

 

Nothing fancy, and pretty inexpensive, but they've been pretty sturdy for the past few years and I've never seen them develop any wear or tear. They have nice solid metal jacks that make good connection. They come in different lengths. I'm considering heat-shrinking 3 of them together:

https://www.amazon.com/CableCreation-Printer-Compatible-Printers-Aluminum/dp/B0769DMN7R/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=USB+C+to+B&qid=1604301653&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzN05UR1g0VFE4TElRJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzMzNjA2NFpQTlBJTE9BTkU5JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAwMDE2OTMxQk5ZTUhIVEkyMUNFJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ

 

Thanks Eric! have ordered a couple of them

[EricBarker]

I feel the difference between 2 and 3 keyboards is huge. It's hard to find a 3-keyboard stand that's super portable and quick to setup. Column stands make 2 keyboard setups a breeze to setup and transport, you can add a 3rd tier, but then they don't collapse. I've gotten away with velcroing my Seaboard to my Mojo61, but that's a unique situation: the Seaboard is very thin, and the Mojo has a flat surface deep enough to play ping-pong on! Past that, it's either a very slow-to-setup 3-tier stand, or start a second rack. I found a neat solution for the PolyBoog, I have a standalone Samson Laptop stand (tripod), that locks down pretty tight. The Boog is just small enough to safely sit on there. It also rotates, so I get to do a mini Rudess impression, and packs up small enough to fit in a backpack. The day I need to really break out a second stand is the day I should really scale back.

[Morrissey]

I feel the difference between 2 and 3 keyboards is huge.

 

Agreed. Big psychological hurdle in dealing with the hassle and logistics of the third board. It does create a commanding stage presence, though.

[EricBarker]

Commanding Stage Presence... maybe, but you become a floating head above your gear, which I already am. I like to turn sideways when possible, but that's not always the case. I'm going to start playing a new venue this weekend, I'll be curious how it's configured and whether I can do a sideways setup. I feel like having a second stand, and having one hand on each stand, makes me feel more like a rock star, but it would be stupid if I only had one board on each rack.

 

I swear Paul Shaffer had the best gig in the world: he had his own permanent stage, he could pile on 16 keyboards in his command station, flip a switch afterwards and go home!

[DJkeys]

Back in the day, I toured with my cover band using a CP70-B and a Prophet 5. All gear for the band was in the old, heavy anvil cases. The two cases for the piano weighed just about as much as the piano itself!

 

Now I gig with two Nords, two three space racks, two QSC K8.2s, a keyboard stand and utility box. Setup time is about 20 minutes, total weight less than 200 pounds. Small is beautiful!

 

-dj

[AnotherScott]

I feel the difference between 2 and 3 keyboards is huge. It's hard to find a 3-keyboard stand that's super portable and quick to setup.

K&M 18880 with 18882 middle tier and 18881 top tier (either forward or backward) gives you a super-light 3-tier stand (probably under 10 lbs) that moves in one piece. The available depths mean that not every conceivable combination of 3 boards will work well, but many do.

[zxcvbnm098]

Back in the day, I toured with my cover band using a CP70-B and a Prophet 5. All gear for the band was in the old, heavy anvil cases. The two cases for the piano weighed just about as much as the piano itself!

 

Now I gig with two Nords, two three space racks, two QSC K8.2s, a keyboard stand and utility box. Setup time is about 20 minutes, total weight less than 200 pounds. Small is beautiful!

 

-dj

 

And a fan of Invisible Stands judging from the picture!

[Reezekeys]

I know what you guys mean. I had to cut down my rig at a certain point.

 

[Mykhailo]

a-w-e-s-o-m-e

 

especially the macintosh 128K on top of the CP80

[mate stubb]

Oh, to be young and strong again.

 

http://hotrodmotm.com/images/gallery/pile_of_keys.jpg

 

http://hotrodmotm.com/images/gallery/back_line.jpg