Vintage Vibe with Herbie's tone?

[dazzjazz]

Hi all,

 

I'm wondering if it's at all possible to voice then process a Vintage Vibe piano to sound like Herbie's Rhodes of the early 70s?

I've been looking for an early Mark 1, but they're thin on the ground here in Australia at the moment. Having a new instrument rather than someones old road dog kinda appeals to me,

but only if it can sound like that.

 

This video sounds really nice, but not in a Herbie way.

 

[video:youtube]

 

Regards

 

Darren

[Al Coda]

Hi all,

 

I'm wondering if it's at all possible to voice then process a Vintage Vibe piano to sound like Herbie's Rhodes of the early 70s?

I've been looking for an early Mark 1, but they're thin on the ground here in Australia at the moment.

 

I still hate I sold my 1971 mk I 73 too early because replacement parts became unavailable here.

That was already mid 80s IIRC.

And I sold it for peanuts ...

 

I never ever found another one sounding like that, which I bought as 1st owner in jan 1972.

 

I bought a mk II w/ still wooden keys later again,- but it wasn´t the same.

 

Meanwhile, prices are insane,- so it will never happen again for me.

 

:

 

A.C.

[Adan]

 

I'm wondering if it's at all possible to voice then process a Vintage Vibe piano to sound like Herbie's Rhodes of the early 70s?

 

 

I can't speak to the range of what's possible as far as voicing, but I can say the VV I own does not achieve that vaunted Herbie tone. I've owned 5 rhodes before the VV. My favorite was a Mark I suitcase and yes, it had that tone and a pleasing crunch I hadn't found in any other rhodes. But it was also had very uneven key responses. It had been around the block a few too many times. I gave up on it rather than trying to fix it.

 

The VV is a joy to play and I never tire of it. But it doesn't have "that" sound.

[Jim Alfredson]

Which Herbie tone? The earlier stuff on Mwandishi and Fat Albert Rotunda is very different than the later Headhunters stuff. That's because the Rhodes on the earlier stuff was a silvertop with felt hammers.

[The Real MC]

That's because the Rhodes on the earlier stuff was a silvertop with felt hammers.

 

I'm inclined to think that Herbie's silvertop piano had the felt hammer set replaced with the later wood/plastic hammer set. The hammer sets were interchangeable per the service manual.

 

I landed a silvertop piano ten years ago that had this modification. I found that if you adjust the pickups just close enough, they saturate on hard strikes and they get that attack transient "thunk" of the early Hancock sound. Later pickups don't saturate at all and won't get that sound. I don't know if the pickups on the VV piano will do that.

 

I much prefer the sound and dynamics of the wood/plastic hammer set with silvertop tines/tonebars over the original felt hammers.

 

Don't put the pickups too close on the lower 1/3 of the piano, the magnetic strength pulls the tines too hard and the pitch wavers.

[dazzjazz]

Which Herbie tone? The earlier stuff on Mwandishi and Fat Albert Rotunda is very different than the later Headhunters stuff. That's because the Rhodes on the earlier stuff was a silvertop with felt hammers.

 

Hi Jim,

 

Well I love the tone in Thrust, but I also like the unique sound he has on Hubbard"s Red Clay, which I suspect is a sparkle top.

Either would be cool.

 

Thanks to all for the discussion so far everyone.

[Doerfler]

Hey Darren -

 

I would contact Fred DiLeone directly about this. He will have the answer for you.

 

https://www.vintagevibe.com/pages/contact

[ProfD]

I would suggest putting the Vintage Vibe EP through some type of outboard processor i.e. dynamic (compressor) and effect (tape saturation).

[Jazz+]

Yes, which Herbie tone . I like his CTI records sound , for example the album by George Benson called White rabbit. It"s my understanding that every year when a new model came out, Fender would send him a free one . Often a suitcase sometimes a stage . I doubt he was very picky as long as it was set up nicely. I associate a clean tone with Herbie Hancock. The video above sounds pretty authentic to me, I think the difference is how it was recorded ,or it when it is a suitcase amp or stage model using some other amp. A Rhodes is a very simple design. This reminds me of how a Guitar players fuss over different years of fender guitars, when the difference is actually very little and mattered very little to the masters who played them.

[Doerfler]

what about this tone?

 

[video:youtube]

[Jazz+]

Cory's playing reminds me of Herbie. How about a video of the "Herbie Sound" as played by Herbie Hancock. I'll go first, clean tone solo at 2:25:

 

[video:youtube]

[dazzjazz]

Here"s Red Clay, not my absolute favourite tone, but intriguing for sure.

Go to about 4:35 for Herbie"s solo.

 

][video:youtube]

[Al Coda]

Also,- don´t forget which amplification, cabs, mics and fx boxes in between they used in the past !

 

There wasn´t only the bottom cab of the suitcase Rhodes Herbie used in the past.

In addition he was going into a mixer as well and IIRC, some Shure 4-channel mic mixer was often used for the Rhodes and because of the sound.

I believe, Chick used one too.

 

A.C.

[Reezekeys]

The two examples above are from 1970 & 1971 - that's a little while ago. Was he using his own Rhodes on all these sessions back then, or whatever the studios had? I heard that these days he has a Fazioli moved anywhere he does an acoustic piano date. Same deal with Rhodes?

 

BTW a very nice Herbie Rhodes sound can be heard on the title track of Mike Brecker's last album, Pilgrimage. It's on Apple Music (the service I subscribe to) but not on youtube. It does sound pretty similar to the ones from these dates from 50 years ago!

[Al Coda]

The (Fender-) Rhodes in "Red Clay" and "Little Train" sounds different.

 

In fact, the one in "Red Clay" doesn´t sound like well maintained,- has very short decay which itself is different on many keys .. like bad adjusted dampers and some dead sounding tines.

The magic is Herbie´s playing w/ that tone.

 

Even he might had an endorsement deal w/ Fender or Rhodes, that doesn´t mean in some studios he didn´t use what was available and already been set up.

 

"Little Train", to my ears, sounds like a "stock" Stage 73 into DI and running to console,- possibly a mix of some miced combo amp and DI.

 

I think, that was the goodness of the 60s, 70s and early 80s recording techniques,- these weren´t to replicate w/ ease.

Instead, they were one of a kind,- depending on room acoustics, all the gear used and the engineer w/ his input and so on,- in opposite to all the "bedroom" DAW work w/ the same "pro" hosts, plugins and presets available across user base.

The old recording techniques w/ tape were different culture for shure.

 

B.t.w.,- I love Herbie´s Rhodes in "Mandwishi" and "Headhunters" recordings the most ...

"Thrust" - Butterfly and "Crossings" - The Sleeping Giant or ... "Headhunters" - Sly ..

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

A.C.

[Paul Harrison]

I like Herbie Hancock's Rhodes playing and sound on this album from 1970, especially this track (solo 1'30" - 2'40").

 

[video:youtube]

[Aussie_Chicago]

Hi Dazza , I doubt you would be able to pull off that classic Herbie tone from a VV. A cpl cats in Chicago use a VV , its somewhere between a Rhodes and a Wurli tone. Im personally not a fan of the tone but thats my preference , still a great instrument. I think you would have more success tweaking a vst or your cp4 running through some effects. From what I know about the headhunter recordings , as others said its straight off the pickups to a DI , then put through a compressor and tube preamp. Its also miced from the suitcase speakers and both tones were mixed together. I got this info from Paul Jackson when I played with him in NYC He didnt know what exactly was used but he definitely said in studio was off the harp and miced from speakers. .

[Al Coda]

 

... its straight off the pickups to a DI , then put through a compressor and tube preamp. Its also miced from the suitcase speakers and both tones were mixed together. I got this info from Paul Jackson when I played with him in NYC He didnt know what exactly was used but he definitely said in studio was off the harp and miced from speakers. .

 

^^^^^^

THIS

 

the, at that time,- classic recording procedure for a Rhodes.

In addition, some Rhodes suitcase "bottom cabs" where modded w/ stereo line outs capturing the stereo tremolo effect before it ran into (solid state) power amp and the jensen alnico speakers.

And from "suitcase" model pre-amp´s FX mono insert I/O, you could run thru whatever stomp boxes into guitar/bass amps w/ cabs and/or leslies.

You just only needed a short Y-cable feeding dry sound back to the FX loop´s return jack to have all separate on recording console channels.

 

But today, with the right sample set, the right FX plugins and some advanced digital routing, you can achieve that too.

Not 100% the same though.

 

A.C.

[Jazz+]

I also noticed the poor regulation of the Rhodes on the Red Clay. Personally, I wouldn"t like that. But Herbie plays so great that the solo is great in spite of that particular Rhodes. The notes were very truncated, not normal sustain. I think the Rhodes on Little Train works much better because the notes don"t choke off. I would hate to gig with a real Rhodes, they are not portable. I like Scarbee it"s close enough for me. Through a Fender Bassman with tubes would be heavenly.

[Analogaddict]

I have a VV64 with active preamp. It sounds and feels like a well maintained Rhodes, nothing like a Wurly. The tone is very crisp and clear and I use a tube preamp in the fx loop. If it reminds me of a classic Rhodes artist I"d say it sounds more like Chick Corea than Herbie out of the box, but I believe the setup can be changed quite a lot.

 

I"ve owned seven Rhodes pianos and they were all very different. The one that sounded most like the Herbie tone was a passive 1971 stage 88 when played through a Music Man 410, but that was a bit too heavy for me. Yes, I gigged with them.

 

If you"re interested in a VV piano, try to find and play one. It"s a somewhat different animal (much due to the better dynamics) but I feel that I"ll never need to bring a Rhodes again. This is it.

[Jazz+]

VV64 weight?

[dazzjazz]

I have a VV64 with active preamp. It sounds and feels like a well maintained Rhodes, nothing like a Wurly. The tone is very crisp and clear and I use a tube preamp in the fx loop. If it reminds me of a classic Rhodes artist I"d say it sounds more like Chick Corea than Herbie out of the box, but I believe the setup can be changed quite a lot.

 

I"ve owned seven Rhodes pianos and they were all very different. The one that sounded most like the Herbie tone was a passive 1971 stage 88 when played through a Music Man 410, but that was a bit too heavy for me. Yes, I gigged with them.

 

If you"re interested in a VV piano, try to find and play one. It"s a somewhat different animal (much due to the better dynamics) but I feel that I"ll never need to bring a Rhodes again. This is it.

 

Thanks for this. I imagine, given it"s a tine piano with adjustable pickups then it should be possible to get it to sound close to an early 70s Rhodes. I don"t know of any VVs here in Australia, where they are very expensive due to exchange rates and shipping. Will try to call VV this week and have a friendly chat with them.

[Zalman Stern]

VV64 weight?

 

From the website:

 

VV44: 35 lbs. 15.8 kg

VV64: 53 lbs. 24 kg

VV73: 60 lbs. 27.2kg

 

-Z-

[Al Coda]

This should be a Fender Rhodes mk I 73 Stage, ca. 1971-1973 w/ the neoprene hammer tips.

It sounds like my 1971 Fender Rhodes mi 73 stage did when I played it thru the Fender Dual Shoman reverb amp.

 

Ramsey Lewis in german TV in 1973 ...

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

A.C.

[Doerfler]

for those, like me, who can't see the video AC posted

 

[video:youtube]

[Al Coda]

Thank you !

This is insane,- I already edited and inserted media tag new,- but it doesn´t work when doin´ from here.

 

:-)

 

A.C.

[Jazz+]

The sound of a tube amp is perhaps key in the Ramsey video.

[dazzjazz]

Sounds fabulous, thanks for posting that.