OT: H.E.R. SNL

[Adan]

Nick. I remember he just outright copped to it and called it a brain-fart. Refreshing.

 

ReezeKeys, I was being maybe more literal than it sounded. It's truly the job of each succeeding generation to flaunt the absence of whatever element the previous one uses as a mark of "real" music. Ironically, that used to be pitch-exactness and sophisticated melodies, which the rockers abandoned in favor of screaminess/mumbling with cool harmonic development. Now everyone's dead on pitch with soaring melodic leaps, but it's the previous generation's preferences for harmonic development they've eschewed.

 

Whatever this generation grows up valuing, the next one will gleefully omit, and Gen-Z will have officially grown up the day they make their first complaint about it.

 

These are valid anthropological observations, but not statements of natural law. Would tragic consequences follow if someone with the talent of H.E.R. attempted to break free of the pack and surprise us with harmonic explorations or, failing that, just some good old-fashioned songcraft? The disappointment I feel in listening to H.E.R. is not about what she brings to the table, which is a lot, but that there's a dimension to music that she's not using, and that is not mutually exclusive to anything she's doing. She's popular enough without it, so what's the incentive? I don't know, maybe not much. But I don't think it is mere fuddy-duddyism to wish that artists would make more use of that dimension.

[BRW]

IMO this loopy songwriting would not exist without DAWs that make it easy to copy & "endless-paste" a small fragment of music to instantly produce a bed for a song.

I always figured it was things like arpeggiators and pattern sequencers on boards like the Motif that started it.

 

Way way earlier than that. It all stems from hip hop and the MPC, the Ensoniq ASR, the SP-1200... Loop-based music.

[MathOfInsects]

But I don't think it is mere fuddy-duddyism to wish that artists would make more use of that dimension.

 

Not thinking it's fuddy-duddyism, is part of the fuddy-duddyism.

[stillearning]

...Anyway, there's enough things I relate to and recognize here, appreciate, etc. to listen through to the end - ah heck, I can appreciate most things... But, I watched it last night - nope the specific melody didn't stick with me, or the lyric. But I do remember the vibe and imagery they are selling. And that (like is currently in style) the guitar solo is really just the melody - not a new piece of material or an area of improvisation. Nirvana killed what we expected from a "solo" in the 90s.

The guitar 'solo" is what I enjoyed most. I actually liked that it was simply the main vocal melody, played with precision, repeated in octaves. I"m rarely a fan of shredding. I thought that was tasty.

[Mykhailo]

IMO this loopy songwriting would not exist without DAWs that make it easy to copy & "endless-paste" a small fragment of music to instantly produce a bed for a song.

I always figured it was things like arpeggiators and pattern sequencers on boards like the Motif that started it.

 

Way way earlier than that. It all stems from hip hop and the MPC, the Ensoniq ASR, the SP-1200... Loop-based music.

 

got to go back earlier....'take me to the bridge!' James Brown, circular aesthetic...

[ProfD]

Pop(ular) music has always been the McDonald's equivalent of nutrition. There's a reason many folks like it. Crucial to understanding how the music business works.

 

There's enough old and new music that is harmonically adventurous. It usually doesn't show up on TV or radio.

 

Because I'm MOM (Musically Open Minded), I can appreciate H.E.R. and loop-based music (Hip-Hop, R&B, EDM), Jazz, James Brown, Punk, Funk, Go-Go, Reggae, Heavy Metal, etc.

 

I just love organized noise (music) regardless of its simplicity or sophistication.

[stoken6]

I will say this: she managed to take a contemporary-sounding song (one four-bar loop, mumbly vocal style, loads of melisma) and bring in some "classic?" elements: live band, distorted lead guitar. And she's a pretty useful guitar player.

 

I don't have a problem with the guitar solo doubling the vocal melody, any more than I have a problem with the whistle in "Moves Like Jagger", or the horns in Beethoven's 9th.

 

If this inspires a few kids to try and learn guitar to accompany their loops, and then realise that it's just as easy to NOT play the same four chords repeatedly, then that's a net-positive.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[BRW]

Pop(ular) music has always been the McDonald's equivalent of nutrition. There's a reason many folks like it. Crucial to understanding how the music business works. ;)There's enough old and new music that is harmonically adventurous. It usually doesn't show up on TV or radio.

 

Yeah, but I think why people (like us) have a "problem" with it is because at least for me, we don't have to go that further back in history when even "popular" or "McDonald's" music was more than just one or three simple chords. Or beyond a C-Am-F-G progression. Or that songs had actual structure, and not just (what sounds like) random vocal variations over a loop.

 

I can't help but think of hugely popular iconic artists like Prince or Michael Jackson - just listen to the juicy chord progressions Rod Temperton wrote for MJ, for instance. And that wasn't "underground music" that sh*t was mega popular chart-topping stuff.

 

Someone somewhere kind-of-recently said this about contemporary pop music: it's all about image, and SOUND (or the beat) and lyrics (even though even this latter part is diminishing). Everything else comes second.

[stoken6]

BRW +1. It may be the repartitioning of songwriting away from "music and lyrics" towards "beats and topline" that did it.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ProfD]

I can't help but think of hugely popular iconic artists like Prince or Michael Jackson - just listen to the juicy chord progressions Rod Temperton wrote for MJ, for instance. And that wasn't "underground music" that sh*t was mega popular chart-topping stuff.

Correct.

 

A short walk through their respective catalogs will reveal that Both Prince and MJ had harmonically simple hits too.

 

"KISS" and "Do you remember the Time" come to mind.

 

There was a time when record companies invested in and allowed artists and musicians to stretch out musically.

 

Still, for the 50 years that I've been listening to Pop(ular) music, most of it has been harmonically simple.

 

In fact, talk to some Jazz musicians and every other genre of music is sh8t.

 

Musicians have been using the same harmonic devices or lack thereof forever. Now, an argument can be made that songwriting has been better.

[Bill H.]

[video:youtube]

 

This H.E.R. song was in high rotation (in my car ) summer 2019. It reminds me a lot of Bonnie Raitt in her prime, and also unfortunately of the SNL song of the thread. She is really not that one dimensional... her R&B style can even get kind of weird at times (Focus... with it's harp glissandos for example).

 

Well weird for an old white guy anyway

[TommyRude]

some thoughts;

The songwriting aspect; in my view, it's more challenging to make a simpler progression memorable - she does that here (IMHO).

 

The choices: think about what happened leading up to this. They made choices, intentionally and purposefully, to include this type of music on her record, likely against pressure to opt towards safer pop oriented choices. Further - they and whatever operational management at SNL, chose to display this tune on the show - they could have gone with other tracks. To me, this shows courage to go against the odds.

 

An x factor; this song smashes through genre, racial, gender and generational boundaries. Stuff like this can help bridge gaps in our society. Maybe that's overstating things a bit, but I felt that in the background of my mind and soul while experiencing this performance.

[Reezekeys]

I "dropped the needle" at various points in that "Hard Place" video wondering if I'd hear a chord other than B minor, A or E. Not gonna spend the time to hear the whole thing because I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

 

Once again and like a lot of stuff today â good voice, good looks, great musicianship, faultless production, nice video.... but not much of a song.

[TommyS]

I much prefer the Jane Monheit version,,,,,,

[EscapeRocks]

The guitar 'solo" is what I enjoyed most. I actually liked that it was simply the main vocal melody, played with precision, repeated in octaves. I"m rarely a fan of shredding. I thought that was tasty.

 

 

I think you just nailed what I've been trying to come up with as to why I've already forgotten the song and performance: It was too clean and "precise", as you put it. For whatever reason, I got bored with this performance. I did stay till the end to give it a fair shot.

Side note: I had not heard of her prior to this, and I try to find as much new music as I can. I'm usually successful at it, so my comments aren't "old fuddy-duddy". There's tons of new stuff by relatively new artists that I enjoy.

 

Since I had not heard her before, that's why I watched until the end. This performance did not inspire me to explore anymore of her stuff.

[MathOfInsects]

I "dropped the needle" at various points in that "Hard Place" video wondering if I'd hear a chord other than B minor, A or E. Not gonna spend the time to hear the whole thing because I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

 

No for sure. ||: I v IV I :||. Everything that happens in that song happens through vibe and arrangement. But can I say: One of my favorite songs to play live. It's so gentle and slotted in this light nuanced groove, and then drives ahead through the choruses with a complete dynamic change that still has to be controlled. I (used to) look forward to the point in the night when we (got to) play it.

[GovernorSilver]

I can't help but think of hugely popular iconic artists like Prince or Michael Jackson - just listen to the juicy chord progressions Rod Temperton wrote for MJ, for instance. And that wasn't "underground music" that sh*t was mega popular chart-topping stuff.

Correct.

 

A short walk through their respective catalogs will reveal that Both Prince and MJ had harmonically simple hits too.

 

"KISS" and "Do you remember the Time" come to mind.

 

There was a time when record companies invested in and allowed artists and musicians to stretch out musically.

 

Still, for the 50 years that I've been listening to Pop(ular) music, most of it has been harmonically simple.

 

In fact, talk to some Jazz musicians and every other genre of music is sh8t.

 

Musicians have been using the same harmonic devices or lack thereof forever. Now, an argument can be made that songwriting has been better.

 

Prince and MJ also got away with more by being men. Female artists are subjected to more scrutiny and nit-picking from male critics.

 

I've seen this happen repeatedly with other musicians - videos of guys playing something simple on keys with no reaction, then a video of a woman playing something just as simple on keys which garners criticism for her simple playing. Same with other instrumentalists.

[Morrissey]

 

Prince and MJ also got away with more by being men. Female artists are subjected to more scrutiny and nit-picking from male critics.

 

I've seen this happen repeatedly with other musicians - videos of guys playing something simple on keys with no reaction, then a video of a woman playing something just as simple on keys which garners criticism for her simple playing. Same with other instrumentalists.

 

 

Female artists are held to a different standards for sure. But there is more than just the one standard of higher criticism you are describing. Another facet is that some women can rely on sex appeal for success despite subpar music skills. I'm thinking in particular of some incredibly popular YouTube channels of women in low cut tops playing coffee-shop-quality covers on acoustic guitar. Also, some critics seem to have LOWER bars to judge women musicians, in the "pretty good for a girl" vein. For example, Bonnie Raitt is objectively a great slide guitar player, but she'll always be tagged first as the "best woman slide player," rather than as one of the Best [#] Slide Players ever regardless of gender.

 

It feels dangerous to comment on these gender issues; there is always a risk of being misunderstood. The primary comment I'm trying to make here is that, as a man, I can't begin to understand how difficult it must be for women to navigate all these different, overlapping, moving targets for success.

[MathOfInsects]

Prince and MJ also got away with more by being men. Female artists are subjected to more scrutiny and nit-picking from male critics.

 

I've seen this happen repeatedly with other musicians - videos of guys playing something simple on keys with no reaction, then a video of a woman playing something just as simple on keys which garners criticism for her simple playing. Same with other instrumentalists.

 

I always hesitate to go down these roads here, and was also glad to see the "Africa" comments disappear before I could lose the battle with myself to respond, but I just want to say: I'm glad you posted this.

[area51recording]

It's probably just my perception, but to me that performance for some reason just doesn't feel "locked in" and I can't put my finger on why. It just feels like some elements of the groove are trying to pull ahead time wise.....to me it seems to have a nervous feel a lot of the time.....

[GovernorSilver]

Prince and MJ also got away with more by being men. Female artists are subjected to more scrutiny and nit-picking from male critics.

 

I've seen this happen repeatedly with other musicians - videos of guys playing something simple on keys with no reaction, then a video of a woman playing something just as simple on keys which garners criticism for her simple playing. Same with other instrumentalists.

 

I always hesitate to go down these roads here, and was also glad to see the "Africa" comments disappear before I could lose the battle with myself to respond, but I just want to say: I'm glad you posted this.

 

I usually hesitate as well but in this case I'm glad to not be alone on this.

[Geoff Grace]

I enjoyed it. Thanks for posting, waygetter.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[MAJUSCULE]

Prince and MJ also got away with more by being men. Female artists are subjected to more scrutiny and nit-picking from male critics.

 

I've seen this happen repeatedly with other musicians - videos of guys playing something simple on keys with no reaction, then a video of a woman playing something just as simple on keys which garners criticism for her simple playing. Same with other instrumentalists.

 

I always hesitate to go down these roads here, and was also glad to see the "Africa" comments disappear before I could lose the battle with myself to respond, but I just want to say: I'm glad you posted this.

 

I usually hesitate as well but in this case I'm glad to not be alone on this.

 

Your comments are the most pertinent in this thread.

 

Another softball I'd like to lob in would be my wish that we could have threads about recent performances and recordings without devolving into a debate about the merits of the majority of popular music today. I get it, but it's tiring af. Most of this thread isn't about the performance itself but about the entire genre or collection of genres. Not to mention that it's music made by and for people who are pretty different from the average poster here. I mean, :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

[MathOfInsects]

 

Your comments are the most pertinent in this thread.

 

Another softball I'd like to lob in would be my wish that we could have threads about recent performances and recordings without devolving into a debate about the merits of the majority of popular music today. I get it, but it's tiring af. Most of this thread isn't about the performance itself but about the entire genre or collection of genres. Not to mention that it's music made by and for people who are pretty different from the average poster here. I mean, :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

 

Don't you have a civilization to ruin and a work ethic to shirk????

[Adan]

So I did a search for "every generation thinks it invented sex" because I couldn't remember who was originally credited with that phrase. Somebody named Andy Grove, apparently. I could have searched his name to see what else he's done, but, you know, I obviously have more important things to do with my time. Anyway, the point is, you could substitute "the 3 chord song" for "sex" and it would be just as true.

[BRW]

 

Both Prince and MJ had harmonically simple hits too. ..."Do you remember the Time" come to mind.

 

 

"Remember The Time", written and produced by Teddy Riley (not Rod Temperton & Quincy), though. New Jack Swing sound - which was the contemporary sound of the day (1991), remember. I wouldn't call those jazzy chords and MJ's thick background harmonies "simple" (even though there's only 2-3). Or the sophisticated production.

[MathOfInsects]

 

Both Prince and MJ had harmonically simple hits too. ..."Do you remember the Time" come to mind.

 

 

"Remember The Time", written and produced by Teddy Riley (not Rod Temperton & Quincy), though. New Jack Swing sound - which was the contemporary sound of the day (1991), remember. I wouldn't call those jazzy chords and MJ's thick background harmonies "simple" (even though there's only 2-3). Or the sophisticated production.

 

Yeah, D, what would you know about go-go and New Jack Swing, anyway.

[Threadslayer]

... you could substitute "the 3 chord song" for "sex" ...

My wife used to say something similar

[GovernorSilver]

Another softball I'd like to lob in would be my wish that we could have threads about recent performances and recordings without devolving into a debate about the merits of the majority of popular music today.

 

I feel ya on that. We can pretty much tell what direction a thread will go here it's about pop music. The comment about no good melodies being made since the 80s made me feel a bit sad... for that person. You'd have to be really socially isolated and bitter to say that.

 

The other reason I've cut my participation in such threads is I listen to the radio less and less, especially now that I work from home. I got all kinds of people hitting me up on social media for their new Bandcamp or whatever, so I spend more time listening to that than trying to keep up with pop music. Ok, I do listen to quite a bit of J-pop.

[Threadslayer]

To show just how hip I am, I had to look up J-pop, and listening to this,

[video:youtube]

it seems indistinguishable from well, Pop - albeit with Japanese lyrics. Did I miss something profound?