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Sadly, I had to turn them off....


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My fairly new neighbor (2 years) is the music director for one of the larger local churches. In fact, he is director for a set of three sister churches. He once told me that one of his duties is to make sure the music is consistent in all of the churches. A few weeks ago I started listening to their online services, mostly to listen to him and the church band. They start the service with a 15 minute concert, then are done. Much different than what I am used to. Sing, someone talks a bit, sing, announcements, sing, prayer list, sing, service, sing. But here, 15 minutes of music provided by the band. Then the service. My thoughts...

 

Week 1 - Wow, they are professional. No bad notes. Practiced. Overall, very good.

Week 2 - Consistent. They sound just like they did last week.

Week 3 - Are they playing the same songs as before. Sounds the same. I cannot tell. Does no one ever play a solo, or even throw in a few interesting licks?

Week 4 - I'm definitely seeing a pattern here. Same sounds, same key, same tempo, same dynamics and passion.

Week 5 - Same mellow pad sound 5 weeks in a row. Same tempo. Same break downs. I'm reminded of that video someone posted a few years ago of someone comparing 5 country songs. All with the same beat, chord progression, tempo and feel. It ended with the 5 songs all playing at once and locking in so tight that it sounded like one single song. I grew up in a church that sang the old hymns, but they had variety. From slow and ponderous Amazing Grace to fast and uplifting I'll Fly Away. And a good preacher knew how to set the mood for his sermon by leading in with the correct song. The more I thought about that, the more the music I was listening too on the current broadcast felt like Orwell's 1984. I had to turn it off. Could not listen to anymore.

 

So I have to ask, is this what music is like in most "modern" churches now? Formulated. Restricted. Sitting in one neutral spot, never to move?

This post edited for speling.

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warning: rant coming that hopefully doesn't cross Forum rules....

 

I'm an MD for a Contemporary Worship service; have been doing this for 19+ years. I hear you loud & clear. I don't think your neighbor is necessarily at fault. I've been really frustrated over the last several (5+) years at contemporary worship music. It's become VERY formula oriented. It's as if a few sharp business minds ran some algorithm that figured out what types of songs sell best (regardless of whether they're worshipful, theologically rich or singable to a congregation), what types of artists are most appealing & then mass produced the result ad nauseum. I used to use CCLI / Songselect (kinda like Christian music's Hot 100) as my primary source of finding new music. All of a sudden the list is filled with these power anthems, 100- 110 bpm, opening with a pad, sung in a low octave, with the 2nd verse adding a tom oriented pattern that builds to the 2nd chorus frenzy, with the singer now singing the melody up an octave. These songs all have a melodic range of an octave & a half, which is not singable to a layperson. The praise teams in these videos are all beautiful hipsters. Every keyboard player is playing a Nord and perhaps a vintage Rhodes or Wurly and has a Laptop close by). Every praise team shows perfectly balanced PC diversity. It's not that any of those things are bad (except that unsingable part), but every new song coming out is like that. There's also significantly more male worship leaders out now than female... that too seems to change with times. Can you tell I'm jaded? I really feel like the Christian music industry is doing significant harm to Christianity by emphasizing their productions on what sells as opposed to what serves. This stuff has forced me to start looking at other sources for music. I really have a dislike for the nursery rhyme like form of most old hymns, but at least they're singable (typical range is an octave, maybe a tenth) & the lyrics are deep & inspiring.

 

Thanks. I feel better after getting that off my chest!

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I grew up in a church that sang the old hymns, but they had variety. From slow and ponderous Amazing Grace to fast and uplifting I'll Fly Away. And a good preacher knew how to set the mood for his sermon by leading in with the correct song. The more I thought about that, the more the music I was listening too on the current broadcast felt like Orwell's 1984. I had to turn it off. Could not listen to anymore.

 

So I have to ask, is this what music is like in most "modern" churches now? Formulated. Restricted. Sitting in one neutral spot, never to move?

 

My experience and take on church music is similar to yours. As a teenager I was the pianist for a small Baptist church that met in a storefront building. Thanks to some mail ordered "How to Play Gospel Piano" lessons, I had somewhat of a honkytonk gospel style that earned demerits at a Bible college I briefly attended. At a 2nd, similar school (Chattanooga TN area) I played at small country churches where ministerial students guest-preached. I was better received there.

 

I am happy for several of my friends who are really into their church gigs, even though that means getting up early Sunday morning after late hours playing bar band gigs. They seem to enjoy the contrast and freshness of the music, and of course the positive, uplifting spirit and not having their songs interrupted by fights. As for myself, I recently enjoyed playing in a Willie Nelson tribute band where like Willie, they included some country gospel medleys in the show while getting an audience member to pass the hat. Thanks to that, people danced and tips often doubled the gig pay, and nobody seemed to care that the previous half dozen songs had been like Whiskey River Take My Mind, or THC oriented.

 

I am rather "bah, humbug" about modern church music but I haven't heard much of it to date. So will try to keep a more open mind. Hopefully someone has posted some examples while I wrote this post.

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The church I worked for we had all pro musician with big ears so they could change directing or be thrown a unexpected song and handle no problem. In fact there was a guest performer at both wednesday and sunday services. If they were smart they sent in a lead sheet or a CD early enough we to send it to that weeks band, the band members rotated depending on availability and to give more a chance to play. Typically of singer many would flake out and show up to sound check before service with a hopefully a lead sheet. So band would learn the tune on the spot in the 10 minutes allotted. Our church started service with an optional 20 minute meditation so if need the band and singer would disappear into the backroom where there is a piano to finishing running down the tune.

 

Our services began with a couple up tunes to get people energized and they out of a rotation of about 10 tunes, so they were repeated but not that often. Then we did service opening and new member greeting and then another song by band and churches singer then first song by guest artist. After the song the band would leave the band box especially on Sunday they were tired. Most had worked Saturday night and sound check on Sunday was 5:30am. The guitar player typical would go catch a nap in his car. Service would continue the band would quietly slide back into the band box towards the end of the Rev' message and get ready. After the Rev' finished then it was offering time and the band and sometimes a singer would play while the offering plates were being passed. We had over 1000 people per service so took awhile to collect the offering. Then the guest artist would do there second song and after that the service closing started. The keyboards and sometime band would play softly for the closing. That was it for the service, but after many services the band would jam for a bit and it became a popular thing with congregation many would hang out to listen and dance.

 

That was the general rundown. Orders of things would change a little bit, yes church experiment as to when to take up the offering to see how it affected size of collection. The church's own songs were a handful of songs that rotated and occasional a new song would be added. The most variety came from the guest artists. We had a large choir but they only sang one sunday and one wednesday per month and the same thing a small set of tunes that rotated.

 

The band and choir were run by the choir director who was Jazz artist in past and she still puts out spiritual records not and then. Our guest artists varied a lot and included instrumental guests occasionally. The band would have guests sit in and well know singers would sit in now and then. So there was an element of surprised in the music of the church.

 

There are a handful of video on YouTube of our choir, but the one below is one of my favorites because how it turned out was unexpected. Ricky Rouse had subbed in the band a couple times, but this time the Ricki Byars had told Ricky to just go for it. Everyone loved it.

 

[video:youtube]

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Yes liturgy shouldn"t change much. You make it harder on the parishioners to be totally involved if you change liturgy every week. Church isn"t a concert.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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Thanks to Docbop for posting that absolutely incredible performance! Makes me wonder if you can find anything like that in the secular world- but of course that environment is where so many of our most loved artists were shaped. Sharing it on my FB page.

 

This reminds me of it. The guitar player reminds me of Hiram Bullock, also.

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Wow, that video was flat-out inspiring. Heck, I might actually go to church for a service like that..... Ricky Rouse and Ben Dowling, incredible. Thank you for sharing that!.

 

 

The church I worked for we had all pro musician with big ears so they could change directing or be thrown a unexpected song and handle no problem. In fact there was a guest performer at both wednesday and sunday services. If they were smart they sent in a lead sheet or a CD early enough we to send it to that weeks band, the band members rotated depending on availability and to give more a chance to play. Typically of singer many would flake out and show up to sound check before service with a hopefully a lead sheet. So band would learn the tune on the spot in the 10 minutes allotted. Our church started service with an optional 20 minute meditation so if need the band and singer would disappear into the backroom where there is a piano to finishing running down the tune.

 

Our services began with a couple up tunes to get people energized and they out of a rotation of about 10 tunes, so they were repeated but not that often. Then we did service opening and new member greeting and then another song by band and churches singer then first song by guest artist. After the song the band would leave the band box especially on Sunday they were tired. Most had worked Saturday night and sound check on Sunday was 5:30am. The guitar player typical would go catch a nap in his car. Service would continue the band would quietly slide back into the band box towards the end of the Rev' message and get ready. After the Rev' finished then it was offering time and the band and sometimes a singer would play while the offering plates were being passed. We had over 1000 people per service so took awhile to collect the offering. Then the guest artist would do there second song and after that the service closing started. The keyboards and sometime band would play softly for the closing. That was it for the service, but after many services the band would jam for a bit and it became a popular thing with congregation many would hang out to listen and dance.

 

That was the general rundown. Orders of things would change a little bit, yes church experiment as to when to take up the offering to see how it affected size of collection. The church's own songs were a handful of songs that rotated and occasional a new song would be added. The most variety came from the guest artists. We had a large choir but they only sang one sunday and one wednesday per month and the same thing a small set of tunes that rotated.

 

The band and choir were run by the choir director who was Jazz artist in past and she still puts out spiritual records not and then. Our guest artists varied a lot and included instrumental guests occasionally. The band would have guests sit in and well know singers would sit in now and then. So there was an element of surprised in the music of the church.

 

There are a handful of video on YouTube of our choir, but the one below is one of my favorites because how it turned out was unexpected. Ricky Rouse had subbed in the band a couple times, but this time the Ricki Byars had told Ricky to just go for it. Everyone loved it.

 

[video:youtube]

Ludwig van Beethoven:  “To play a wrong note is insignificant; to play without passion is inexcusable.”

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And this is different to current popular music trends and methods, how? It's all going the same way imho.

There is no luck - luck is simply the confluence of circumstance and co-incidence...

 

Time is the final arbiter for all things

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I think McGoo has nailed the formula, unfortunately. I do drums, keys, FOH and streaming mixes (not at the same time, of course) for my church.

 

It seems ironic -- 25 years ago I was on a mission to introduce contemporary worship music to folks who were only used to hymns. Now I can't find a hymn without a backbeat and an alternate chorus. I often annoy my fellow church band members by remarking how I would prefer pipe organs and hymns.

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Well, we are a small church, and do a mix of contemporary and hymns. Our M.D.'s mother is a very skilled pianist, plays in all keys, and can sight read almost anything. She is far above the rest of us in skills. The M.D. plays acoustic guitar and sometimes electric bass. We rotate through a couple of drummers. Our other singer plays electric guitar (mostly chording). I play whatever I feel is needed to serve the music (and within my limited capabilities).

 

We mix up the songs some, have some new ones, but really seem to focus mostly on those that we have found to be: good in theology, even if simple in structure; in keys that are both in the M. D.'s range and guitar oriented keys (but NOT all the same). On hymns, the guitars capo to the key or sit that one out. Pianist and myself play whatever key is needed. The other main thing is to keep enough familiar and well-liked songs in rotation that suit the congregation.

We don't focus at all on "doing it just like the original" From what I can tell, each person in the music leadership is doing it for the right motives, and we don't any care about fame and fortune from it (like that is even remotely like to happen).

 

But, I know of what you speak. My musical tasted are quite different from most guys my age; anything from Bach to contemporary IF the prime focus is on praise and/or worship. When I'm in the car, I may be listening to Bach or Beethoven, Floyd Cramer type country/hymns, many types of ballroom dance music, German/Bavaria folk music, Latin music, prog like Moody Blues.

But, I do draw the line in some things. No rap, super-repetitive EDM, death-metal, nor banjos. :laugh:

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Wow. I've been through the wringer and back re church music these past two years. I'll spare this group the gory details for now; and should you want to know, send me a PM and we'll talk - preferably over a beer, or two...

 

Suffice it to say I'm in complete agreement with RABid, and well relate to Greg's experience. It's like Steve Taylor's, "I Want to Be a Clone" all over again., except it's preciously hip. I can lead worship music, from a piano: hymns/traditional, modified contemporary, real gospel music (ala DocBop's church), folk and broadway-based anthems, etc.. But, I don't play guitar and do all the 'out front' cool stuff. Too much of modern church worship relies on poorly wriiten hipster fluff that puts 'butts in the seats and money in the offering box (which I was instructed to do, literally, at a board meeting).

 

Much current worship music has become a copycat industry, witness the countless ads I get for loops and backing tracks for Ableton. Funny, but when I suggested supplementing my church gig's band with Logic Pro X on a few songs, the pastor asked, "What's that?". After I explained, his response was, "You really should use Ableton, that's what everyone uses". For some, backing tracks are helpful - the small church that wants to add variety and occasional orchestration for a small music program. But the emphasis on weekly, grandiose production makes me uneasy. Why not just be honest and call it a show?

 

My 2019 - 2020 church music directing gig ended this past summer due to the pandemic. I was one of two, part-time directors that covered contemporary and traditional, respectively. The other director had seniority, so when the church cut back to one service, I was asked to step down. I'm now an accompanist for three masses a week with a Catholic worship band. And I think the music there leaves the current Christian pop way behind. For me it's like comparing Lyle Lovett to the 1-5-6-4 tune o' the week - complete with that 'famous' drum groove.

'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo.

 

We need a barfing cat emoticon!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hey all. I'm playing at a Catholic church in Hungary. Repertoire is mostly 80s-90's worship songs with a few newer tunes. We have no drums, only cajon & percussion, and no electric guitars, only acoustic. This is how most everyone does it in Catholic churches here: all our church buildings are really old and acoustically unsuitable for a full rock band lineup and volume level.

 

My usual gripes with our scene are:

- very few bands have sufficient amplification. Many bands are playing with no sound system at all. Several acoustic guitars, flutes and choir. Both the lyrics and the accompaniment becomes somewhat incomprehensible in our reverby churches. For some reason they don't take a hint that the organist on traditional music services also uses a mic.

- very few players have any education in contemporary music. Some people are uneducated and some are trying, with the best intentions, to shoehorn their classical education into contemporary music. The lack of education also ties into the fact that contemporary music is widely associated with youth ministry - so at the "youth mass", the players are also mostly high school or university students.

 

And then there is an ongoing toxic debate whether the Catholic church should even allow contemporary music into the liturgy. Some traditional church musicians are waging an all-out crusade against it. They are right to point out the abovementioned flaws though.

 

On the other hand we have a good variety of song repertoire in the scene IMO. We have songwriters and songs that have been around since the 60s-70s and written in that style, we have songs that show Hungarian folk music influences, classical influences, we play old and new tunes translated from not only English, but French too (which is another huge and very different scene). So wherever I'm asked to create the setlist for some service or event, I'm always trying to keep it varied. If it was all Hillsong and the like, I would've quit already.

Life is subtractive.
Genres: Jazz, funk, pop, Christian worship, BebHop
Wishlist: 80s-ish (synth)pop, symph pop, prog rock, fusion, musical theatre
Gear: NS2 + JUNO-G. KingKORG. SP6 at church.

 

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Here's an absolutely fantastic concert that was given at the end of a HUGE Catholic youth event that I went to in Poland. (This was a concert, not a service.) Shows how very different genres can live together within worship, including world music, folk music, Hillsong, gospel etc.

 

It's worth watching the whole thing, but if you have time for just a few songs, here's three very different ones.

[video:youtube]

[video:youtube]

[video:youtube]

Life is subtractive.
Genres: Jazz, funk, pop, Christian worship, BebHop
Wishlist: 80s-ish (synth)pop, symph pop, prog rock, fusion, musical theatre
Gear: NS2 + JUNO-G. KingKORG. SP6 at church.

 

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I often annoy my fellow church band members by remarking how I would prefer pipe organs and hymns.

 

That was my solution. I left the CCM scene behind and attend a liturgical church and I couldn't be happier. The lyrics are deeper, richer, and orthodox... No wonder, they've withstood the test of time....

 

aL

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I have no involvement with worship music whatsoever but I always love watching this guy on Facebook:

 

[video:youtube]

 

I still attend church. Contemporary christian music bores me to death, but I love the emotions that a good Hammond player can add to the sermon.

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Not a church-goer except at special occasions like Christmas services if my kids are playing (they have done so the last several years, as they take lessons from the music folks at a small-ish church). They have a pipe organ, piano and for those occasions they bring in horns and maybe strings and some percussion. I guess I'm uber-old school because that is the type of music that I equate to spiritual gatherings (that or an acoustic guitar), not highly-processed tracks and monitor mixes etc. I like the old school carols better than contemporary Christmas music as well, even as I kid I did. But again I don't have a dog in the hunt! :D

 

And if you are not hearing bad notes...maybe there are none because it's all tracks. I've seen bands in low-down bars running tracks, it's pathetic (especially considering they have the instrumentation, they are basically just doing milli vanilli while the tracks play.)

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If people come for the music but they still hear the message then the music is a good thing. Church have used all sorts of things to draw people in since the Romans. When I worked for the church I took some theology classes and history of religion. I still remember them talking about the Romans having long lines of people wait to get into temple for worship. The people heard about magical chariots that would come out and float above the congregation during service and disappear back in the front. Thousands of years ago they used putting on a show to draw people in so they could deliver a message to them.

 

FWIW The Romans figured out how to just magnets to suspend the chariot just below the ceiling and make it appear to float around the top of the temple.

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I used to listen to the local Christian station out of Orlando, but it was all the same songs, most of which followed same formula. I need some variety.

 

Which is why the project I'm working on now is to do some of the older hymns, but with a more Blues feel. Currently working on a blues reharm of "Amazing Grace".

 

My wife's memorial service was this past Saturday, and I sang her favorite worship song, "Revelation Song"

 

I sang behind a track that I had recorded with a Wavestation pad, Mellotron, bass, drums, nylon string guitar, and Hammond. All except the Hammond using VSTs.

 

I'll get back on the project is a few more weeks, as I need to learn my PC4 so I can use it for recording.

 

Lately, because of Covid and the precautions my church has taken, out praise band has been a bit sparse. Drums, Acoustic Guitar, Bass, occasionally trumpet, and keys. When Karen plays she uses the church's MOX8. When I play, I'll use the acoustic grand. Karen is a good player, but she has no experience in the outside world, and while playing correctly, has no edge.

 

Me. I've spent a lot of the past 42 years playing in nightclubs and bard, so I put a harder. rock edge on the songs. The congregation can tell I'm up there without even looking.

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

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If people come for the music but they still hear the message then the music is a good thing. Church have used all sorts of things to draw people in since the Romans. When I worked for the church I took some theology classes and history of religion. I still remember them talking about the Romans having long lines of people wait to get into temple for worship. The people heard about magical chariots that would come out and float above the congregation during service and disappear back in the front. Thousands of years ago they used putting on a show to draw people in so they could deliver a message to them.

 

FWIW The Romans figured out how to just magnets to suspend the chariot just below the ceiling and make it appear to float around the top of the temple.

 

Good point, Docbop. And it's true that entertainment and no small amount of theatre have been part of religious ceremony for millenia. Like many others in the music business, I got my start playing in church. And I treasure that experience.

 

But there are some things happening now that bother me, like the over-the-top concern with image and entertainment (with six-figure plus amounts being spent on branding, etc.). Also there exists a disturbingly frequent cutthroat approach to management and employee/contractor relationships. Ageism abounds; I've been slammed a couple times with that one recently.There's plenty online about church staff ageism complaints, and some not-so-neat ways that church management can 'legally' weasel out of it. I'm not here to discuss/debate the specific purposes of any religious organization, as that would violate forums rules, but I feel that church falls into the same genre as other non-profit, community-based organizations; i.e. - it's about the welfare of all participating: attendees and employees.

 

Despite all of that though, many bright spots remain for me - especially the many opportunities to be a coach/teacher to those for whom I've been a MD. And some of the programs of which I've been a part have been excellent, musically and a good challenge for my chops; that last point really applies to my current accompanying gig. I do miss directing at times, utilizing my arranging and production skill set, but the MD has recently askked for some input in those areas (especially to bring in some new songs and arrangements for the team); that's been an encouragement in a very weird year, musically.

'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo.

 

We need a barfing cat emoticon!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I have spent a fair amount of my life invested in this. I am discouraged by the institutional nature of many churches which leads to many of the outcomes you guys have anecdotally experienced. I'm not sure things are headed in a good direction overall, although of course it can be unfair to paint all churches with the same broad brush generalizations; every local church is a unique combination of people, settings, beliefs and policies.

 

I believe there are solutions and ways to improve a lot of the problems cited above - some of them probably step over the wise boundaries of this forum as topics for conversation here. But I'm also not optimistic about the likelihood of some of these things being adopted in large measure, as institutions tend to establish values and processes to sustain their status quo.

..
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Pop(ular) culture can find its way into and/or influence anything. Some people will use whatever it takes in order to become "bigger" and "better". The music ministry is a huge part of it now.

 

As it relates to this dicussion, when it becomes more about show and/or business than message, it might be time to find a new place of worship.

 

i know many people who leave mega-churches and go back to smaller, intimate settings for the very same reasons. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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It's become VERY formula oriented. It's as if a few sharp business minds ran some algorithm that figured out what types of songs sell best

 

I'm with Miden on this one, I think mcgoo's comment applies to a lot of music these days. On the bright side, that means there's an opening for someone who comes up with something truly original and compelling.

 

For me, John Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" comes to mind as an example of powerfully religious music that doesn't follow any rules, and leaves no doubt as to its source of inspiration. He recorded it in one session (with McCoy Tyner, Elvin Jones, and Jimmy Garrison)...I think he was definitely channeling something.

 

[video:youtube]

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It's become VERY formula oriented. It's as if a few sharp business minds ran some algorithm that figured out what types of songs sell best

 

I'm with Miden on this one, I think mcgoo's comment applies to a lot of music these days. On the bright side, that means there's an opening for someone who comes up with something truly original and compelling.

 

For me, John Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" comes to mind as an example of powerfully religious music that doesn't follow any rules, and leaves no doubt as to its source of inspiration. He recorded it in one session (with McCoy Tyner, Elvin Jones, and Jimmy Garrison)...I think he was definitely channeling something.

 

 

The church I worked at we would do A Love Supreme now and then. Being the choir director and the most band all came from the Jazz world it sounded good and moved the congregation to join in singing. I think how a song is performed and how the congregation is reacting determines if its spiritual or religious, not what if a song is categorized church music. Church be it the music or the message is suppose to make you feel something, to move you.

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I think how a song is performed and how the congregation is reacting determines if its spiritual or religious, not what if a song is categorized church music.

 

I have also found that the Pastor (usually unknowingly) can really affect how people react in worship. If the Pastor is not paying attention, talking to other staff instead of singing his or her heart out, people will be much more reserved. If the Pastor has hands raised, singing joyfully and passionately, the flock will be inspired to follow.

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