Computer controlled mic patterns?

[KuruPrionz]

Zero affiliations, just curiosity.

 

Has anybody here used either the Austrian Audio OC818 or the Lewitt LCT 640TS?

 

Both mics can record from the front and back capsules onto seperate tracks and then use software to adjust the polar pattern.

Both companies have a good reputation for quality products and both mics are reasonably priced.

 

This isn't a question about which one is "better", that's really subjective. All points of view are welcome, any experience? How do YOU like being able to adjust your polar pattern?

 

Thanks in advance for any responses!

[Mike Rivers]

 

Has anybody here used either the Austrian Audio OC818 or the Lewitt LCT 640TS?

 

Both mics can record from the front and back capsules onto seperate tracks and then use software to adjust the polar pattern.

 

Not in practice, but when I was writing a microphone article and explaining how multi-diaphragm mics created their patterns, I set up a rig with two mics pointed in opposite directions, recorded them on two tracks, and playing with mixing them to make different patterns. As Craig said in another forum "physics works."

 

What I always wanted to play with is the Soundfield mic and Ambisonics. With that setup, you can make any pattern you want, and also manipulate the mic in three dimensions. You can effectively move it nearer to or further from the source, raise or lower it, and swing its pickup axis around to point it where you want it.

 

I figured this would be a great tool when recording with a single mic setup and I've spent two hours hanging the mic from the lighting grid and when the orchestra sets up I discover that it's too close or too high or too low. Back when I used to do recordings like that (though I usually managed to con someone else to climb up and hand the mic) the Soundfield stuff was too expensive. Now with all the interest in immersive sound, there inexpensive mic arrays that will work with free software and get most of the way to a real Soundfield. But now I don't have any more gigs like that, and I'm too old (or at least too sensible) to climb a lighting truss.

[KuruPrionz]

Thanks Mike, yes "physics does work".

I'm guessing the physics of having 2 diaphragms extremely close to each other effectively eliminates any annoying phase shift - it would be a a narrow band at a high frequency at worst.

 

Sennheiser has an Ambisonic mic for $1,300 list. If I had an amazing room and access to incredible musicians I would need one of those.

 

My primary interest is in having yet another organic option for dialing in the tone of the microphone.

I've now read a couple of reviews on both of the topic mics, primarily Sound On Sound and some YouTube stuff (I find the audio impossible to trust on YouTube).

Both mics are well reviewed and considered to be excellent choices for a high quality LDC that is still affordable.

The software for each mic is free and apparently either software can be used with either mic. I'm not sure if that offers any benefits yet.

 

I'm trying to win one or the other in a contest first, they are both out there at the moment. If I get lucky I'll be happy with whatever I get.

I do have to admit that the possibility of doing a Blumlein array with a pair of mics is intriguing!!

 

Be fun to get an acoustic ensemble together and have them circle the mics while playing and singing. Novelty, I know. Lots of great things could be done with that rig.

[Mike Rivers]

Be fun to get an acoustic ensemble together and have them circle the mics while playing and singing. Novelty, I know. Lots of great things could be done with that rig.

 

Have you seen or heard the third order Ambisonic mic system from Zylia? I've only heard it at shows, over headphones, but it really sounds good and the separation is amazing. It's not all that expensive, either, $1250 for the cheap version. I suspect that it doesn't offer the sound of single mics that cost twice that much, or even that much, but it must be fun to play with.

 

I believe that they're going after the podcast and on-line video market rather than the pro audio market, and that's an appropriate price point for respectable streaming computer-and-headphones sound.

[KuruPrionz]

Be fun to get an acoustic ensemble together and have them circle the mics while playing and singing. Novelty, I know. Lots of great things could be done with that rig.

 

Have you seen or heard the third order Ambisonic mic system from Zylia? I've only heard it at shows, over headphones, but it really sounds good and the separation is amazing. It's not all that expensive, either, $1250 for the cheap version. I suspect that it doesn't offer the sound of single mics that cost twice that much, or even that much, but it must be fun to play with.

 

I believe that they're going after the podcast and on-line video market rather than the pro audio market, and that's an appropriate price point for respectable streaming computer-and-headphones sound.

 

Not until you posted it!!! I took a look, amazing. As to the mics, it is incredible what all is out there now.

I have a Tascam DR-40 recorder. Small, light, cheap ($170 or so?) and it has a pair of built in mics that sound pretty amazing - tiny condensers I think. I'm sure Tascam buys them by the buttload and they are cheap. There are so many other things on the same widget, competing for space and adding costs.

 

I guess you could spin the whole shebang and eliminate all the noise made by people walking in circles.

[Nathanael_I]

Go to Audio Test Kitchen - at least the Lewitt you can audition. Not sure on the Austrian Audio....

[KuruPrionz]

Go to Audio Test Kitchen - at least the Lewitt you can audition. Not sure on the Austrian Audio....

 

Thanks Nathaniel, that's helpful. It looks like an interesting feature! I would like at least one condenser mic with multiple patterns and rabbit hole or not, this is a great way to implement that.

I'm especially drawn to the possibility of recording both membranes and adjusting the pattern post recording. Hard to make a wrong decision that way!

 

I'll report back in a day or two, hopefully with links for both mics. I'm thinking others will produce similar mics if these get traction.

[KuruPrionz]

I joined Audio Test Kitchen, I'm certain that i will find it interesting time and time again.

 

I searched for "Austrian Audio", they haven't got anything up yet. Hard to say when they will and I am not going to bug them about it.

 

Then I searched for "Lewitt" and they had quite a few of their mics tested and available for evaluation. They did not have a Lewitt LCT 640TS posted.

 

So, I got to check out a truly interesting site that I will visit time and again but they didn't have information on this thread topic - yet. That's OK, I'm a bit ahead of myself anyway.

It's going to be a while before I can consider buying either of those mics. In the meantime, I'm pretty happy with where I am now. There is LOTS of room for improvement but this is here and now and I am grateful to be where I am.

[KuruPrionz]

The Townshend Labs mic modeling system includes a large diaphragm condenser mic with a double sided capsule and a 5 pin cable (on the mic end) that terminates in dual 3 pin XLR outputs.

Another option. They use that because they want to duplicate the off axis response of the mics they model, as well as the frequency response and transients.

$1,500 is a chunk of change but the modeling software gets great reviews as well and while you still only have one mic, it is a chameleon with quality options.

 

Certainly a consideration...

[Mike Rivers]

The Townshend Labs mic modeling system includes a large diaphragm condenser mic with a double sided capsule and a 5 pin cable (on the mic end) that terminates in dual 3 pin XLR outputs.

Another option. They use that because they want to duplicate the off axis response of the mics they model, as well as the frequency response and transients.

 

I wonder if I invented that idea. When Slate first came out with mic modeling, I spent some time with Steve Slate at an AES show about what they were doing, and I said "well, you're doing a good job of modeling the on-axis frequency response, but what about the off-axis response?" He didn't think it was that important at the time. I reminded him that you can (in theory, and approximately in practice if you're trying to create the off-axis response of a specific microphone) create any polar by combining two mics and he was interested in that. Of course there's more to off-axis frequency response than just the polar pattern, but that can be adjusted in the same way as on-axis response.

 

Seems like the idea has caught on.

[KuruPrionz]

The Townshend Labs mic modeling system includes a large diaphragm condenser mic with a double sided capsule and a 5 pin cable (on the mic end) that terminates in dual 3 pin XLR outputs.

Another option. They use that because they want to duplicate the off axis response of the mics they model, as well as the frequency response and transients.

 

I wonder if I invented that idea. When Slate first came out with mic modeling, I spent some time with Steve Slate at an AES show about what they were doing, and I said "well, you're doing a good job of modeling the on-axis frequency response, but what about the off-axis response?" He didn't think it was that important at the time. I reminded him that you can (in theory, and approximately in practice if you're trying to create the off-axis response of a specific microphone) create any polar by combining two mics and he was interested in that. Of course there's more to off-axis frequency response than just the polar pattern, but that can be adjusted in the same way as on-axis response.

 

Seems like the idea has caught on.

 

There are certainly options! I looked at the Slate system and read reviews (which is not the same as actually using it, I will always admit this), and it gets good reviews. Seems like a good system.

Very different approach than the Townshend, starting with the mics. Slate does not offer the option to record both diaphragms yet.

 

Austrian Audio and Lewitt both do offer the option to record both diaphragms but do not have a modeling option. Apparently their softwares for creating pickup patterns are compatible and to a certain extent interchangeable.

That's pretty cool.

 

So far, Townshend is the only vendor I've found that offers both computer based pattern control and microphone modeling. While their package costs more than Slate (modeling only) or Austrian?Lewitt (pattern control only), it is all-inclusive so it may not be all that expensive in comparison.

 

The Slate does offer a well reviewed audio interface in their package, that is a good thing to have as well.

 

Most importantly, WE have choices!!!!

[KuruPrionz]

Tape Op magazine (highly recommended reading( sends me an email once in a while with special offers and a short list of articles/reviews from Tape Op that are relevant to that offer.

 

I'm reading a review of the Antelope Audio Edge Duo microphone, which is both a modeling microphone and capable of using both sides of the capsule separately via software. The article is from 2018, perhaps they and Townshend Labs were reading each others mail? Interesting stuff and another option to consider.

 

https://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/130/edge-duo-modeling-microphone/

[Mike Rivers]

I saw the Antelope system before I even heard of Townshdend. I had a nice conversation at NAMM that year with the marketing manager about getting one for a deep dive technical review but they didn't have any production units yet. By the time they did, she was gone and her replacement wasn't interested in a review that would be posted to a "ten visitors a day" web site.

 

I need a better agent.

[KuruPrionz]

I saw the Antelope system before I even heard of Townshdend. I had a nice conversation at NAMM that year with the marketing manager about getting one for a deep dive technical review but they didn't have any production units yet. By the time they did, she was gone and her replacement wasn't interested in a review that would be posted to a "ten visitors a day" web site.

 

I need a better agent.

 

It's a tough market for reviews beyond any doubt. I read a thorough and well-written user review on Gearslutz yesterday and I assume it was posted by an unpaid reviewer. We have a forum here on MPN with in depth reviews but I doubt anybody is paid much for writing them either.

 

Dedicated review sites like Sound On Sound or Tape Op have reviews that are free for the viewing and it appears the vehicle is advertising clicks. Content is click-bait and nothing more.

 

It's not the same planet we were born in!!!!!

[Mike Rivers]

 

 

It's a tough market for reviews beyond any doubt. I read a thorough and well-written user review on Gearslutz yesterday and I assume it was posted by an unpaid reviewer. We have a forum here on MPN with in depth reviews but I doubt anybody is paid much for writing them either.

 

I've thrown out some hints about doing some of those in depth reviews but no action. But to be brutally honest, seeing how little participation there is here on the recording side of things, I could understand that a manufacturer wouldn't want to bother with having his product reviewed here. Reviews seem to be more active (and they're well written reviews, too) on the instrument and software side, but nobody gets excited about mics or preamps or interfaces any more.

 

Dedicated review sites like Sound On Sound or Tape Op have reviews that are free for the viewing and it appears the vehicle is advertising clicks. Content is click-bait and nothing more.

 

Sound on Sound and Tape Op are both magazines that publish reviews along with other articles - but you know that. Tape Op is ad-supported, SOS is by subscription. I'd like to have it show up in my mailbox every month but it's pretty expensive and I can't really justify it. One of the things that I miss about the absence of the trade shows this year is that's where I'd pick up copies of Sound on Sound and Resolution. SOS pays their writers, both for reviews and for articles, and, other than the audiophile mags that don't usually have much of interest to us here (Musicians with no place to play gigs can't afford $45,000 turntables). Tape Op occasionally pays writers, but I don't know about reviews.

 

I think that what MPN would like is for manufacturers to pay to be reviewed here, with some of the money going to the reviewer. An interactive format so that readers can ask questions or contribute their experience, together with a knowledgeable reviewer/referee could provide valuable feedback to the manufacturer, something worth paying for. But you can't do that for every product that comes out. There needs to be some unique features or concepts or exceptional performance before it's just another "sounds great on drums" review.

[KuruPrionz]

Sent you a PM.

 

I'll try to stay on topic here, maybe..

[Dr Mike Metlay]

Late to the party, sorry.

 

Mike, you didn't invent that idea. Paul Vnuk and I signed NDAs and were given an offsite demo of the Townsend Labs Sphere prototype at least a year and a half before Slate announced his; that stuff was already in play. Sorry.

 

Reviews and advertising (linked or otherwise) is a topic that I have thankfully been able to largely disregard since I left having it as the entire center of my continued existence early last year, and I have neither the full knowledge nor the authority to discuss what plans MPN has about it. I can only state that Bro Dave thinks about this stuff a lot and is constantly tweaking the formula, and we (Craig, Stephen, myself, et al.) do what we can to support him.

 

Oh, and that LEWITT mic is kickass. Paul Vnuk loves his. Not an original idea, the Pearl ELM-A was doing it years and years and years ago, but now nicely packaged for a modern audience and the software to help you set it up is a nice touch.

[Mike Rivers]

Late to the party, sorry.

 

Mike, you didn't invent that idea. Paul Vnuk and I signed NDAs and were given an offsite demo of the Townsend Labs Sphere prototype at least a year and a half before Slate announced his; that stuff was already in play. Sorry.

 

I don't claim to have made it easy to adjust patterns with an app, but I did describe the technique as an explanation of how they get multiple patterns from two diaphragms in a Recording article about microphones back when we were both younger and had better memories. I think I even stole illustrations for it from John Eagrle's Microphone Handbook.

 

Not to discredit Slate or Townsend - they're the ones that turned the theory into a practical product, and that's exactly what engineers do for a living. This is one instance where theory and practice can correspond pretty well if you start with well engineered microphone component - and it doesn't work worth a hoot with mics that only really work well on axis regardless of what their advertised directivity pattern is.

[KuruPrionz]

I am most pleased to have such exalted company visit my humble thread!!!!

 

The other dual independent diaphragm mic that recently appeared including a free software package is the Austrian Audio OC 818. The provenance of this mic - a bunch of AKG engineers starting a new company - is compelling.

That and apparently some of their buddies migrated to Lewitt and came out with their version a bit earlier.

 

One suspects old friends had more than enough beers and conversation got "loose". In any case, not only are both mics well reviewed, it seems the softwares offered are interchangeable, free and have some different options available.

 

So I guess I need at least one of each? Gah!!!! Time to win the lottery!!!!