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I miss racks


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Don't get me wrong...as I write this, I'm looking at six sixteen space racks in my studio.

 

But I miss the days when a massive workstation would come out and then, like clockwork, the rack version(s) would appear. The rack format was perfect for those days before laptop bags made companies race to accessorize with tiny synths and virtual synths gutted the market. I bought an Integra 7 last year as sort of a farewell to the JV sound set that Roland reused so many times. I'd also buy a 19" wide Montage and a rack Kronos in a heartbeat. My Eurorack rig is housed in a series of 84hp cases mounted in...you guessed it.

 

So I totally understand why manufacturers have shrunk synths into little freestanding knob boxes, but shit, a studio gets REALLY cluttered REALLY fast with all those little boxes. Like MIDI 1.0, maybe rackmount synths are totally viable but essentially done. I just miss the uniformity even though a stack of different brands of rackmount synths can look pretty crazy.

 

Anyone have a Yamaha VL1m for sale? :)

"For instance" is not proof.

 

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I suppose synth makers find it more cost effective in some cases to come out with a desktop which is long and skinny so they can use the same boards and panel layout to save some redesign coin (Dave Smith with the P6 and Ob6, for instance.)

 

Pity there aren't more rack synths available though.

Moe

---

 

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My Kronos2-73 took a big hit and really needed a new keybed and a couple of faders etc. I replaced the faders, but not really worth the new parts/new keybed it needs.

So, while I had the PCBs out, I wondered if they'd fit in a rack. Turns out they will.

 

It's a shame the board with the faders/buttons and the USB board have other stuff on there. They're quite a size! Just gonna piggy-back the buttons from these.

 

The USB ports will have to be extended internally to new jacks, as there's the touchscreen flatflex stuff on the USB board that I really don't want to mess with.

 

So, a little work in progress. Got a friend with a great metal shop to do the punching etc... I'm just awaiting an empty 4U enclosure.

 

Let's see how this turns out. Cheap enough to get a new 88key controller. I think a rack with this and my Integra will be nice.

Did my first gig in six-months last week - with a Deepmind12 and the Integra. Don't want to do that again, but, yes! I miss racks, too!

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So, while I had the PCBs out, I wondered if they'd fit in a rack. Turns out they will.

 

It's a shame the board with the faders/buttons and the USB board have other stuff on there. They're quite a size!

 

Wow !

Excellent project, Adam !

 

Were there no options to realize display, buttons and faders in a desktop remote programmer unit using MIDI ?

 

:)

 

A.C.

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Not me...sure if the choice was between desktop and racks, I might want racks...but I've embraced software :) I think I spent two many hours programming rack synths (and fx) on those tiny screens--especially if you wanted to go multitimbral. Now it's all in 2k on a 32" monitor with every parameter there (and able to be automated instantly from the daw.) I just did a tune with 30 synth instances (Repro and Diva) that sounded better than I remember the old days, and it's something I can pull up by going "file > open" (no patch changes, cabling, sysex etc). Some were less painful than others--the Proteus was easy, I recall the TX81z was not. I suppose there'd be nowadays fancier ways possibly to program a lot of gear via computer, but if I'm doing that might as well put the sound in there too provided the sound quality is there, which I think it is (close enough for this hobbyist at least).

 

But I do miss the room full of gear vibe :) My "studio" looks like what it is, an office desk in a spare room with one controller keyboard! I need some props or something at least. My favorite place to hang in college was the synth lab, had a memorymoog, arp and some other vintage gear that really put you in the creative mood.

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I'd still prefer a few of the right pieces of rack gear and a controller over a laptop rig. Not interested in refrigerator size road cases or anything silly like that. But, every time I search presets or on-screen edit a VI synth, I just end up sidetracked and frustrated. Hopeless hardware addict.
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Interesting to read these takes on the subject as I have the opposite one. I did plenty of editing on rack units, a TX802, Akai S900, Korg M3R, also efx units like Roland SRV2000, Yam RX7, Digitech, etc. I can't see how it's not better to have everything laid out on one big screen in front of you as you sit at your desk. Don't miss those days at all.
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Certainly a valid point. Maybe it's the tactile aspect of rack gear. Or the visual vibe. I've found with software, I end up fussing around too much instead of playing. All good tools in the end, it's all how you use em. That being said, my live rig only consists of hardware keys, and no rack gear. In fact, the only rack gear I have left is an Akai S2800 that isn't even plugged in. Soooo...nostalgia is part of it.
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Rack synths? No interest at all. I can't even generate interest for a hardware ROMpler like a Kronos. Software has such a superior UI and versatility, and has for a long time. I have a Nord Grand for weighted duty, but I use none of its internal sounds. Every other keyboard is a hardware synth.... except the Kawai RX-7 grand piano.... The closest thing I have to a rack is the Dave Smith OB-6 desktop - ordered that way because I didn't need another keyboard sized thing. When I've used it live, I keep it close enough to use the knobs, though, not buried in a rack I can't reach.
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I like racks myself and have had some form of a rack-based rig since about 1988. In the old days, the rack was larger and then I slimmed down to somewhere between 2-4 spaces. These days, I am keeping a rack for my IEM wireless system, my Vent, my Key Largo mixer, and a Shure submixer for keys vs. band monitoring.

 

Until last year I was still using a Yamaha Motif XS Rack along with the above and I still miss having one more source of additional sounds outside of my keyboard rig, tucked away secretly doing its work in a rack.

 

I'd be a customer for many current synths in a rack form factor.

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Lost the need for rack synths after going to the Kronos 2. But I still have the need to consolidate the IEMs, Vent, Mixer, I/O and doo-dads into a rack. Got everything down to a 4 spacer now.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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I miss 'having' a rack full of synths, midi mergers, mixers and effects, however, I don"t miss 'using' one! I guess it's a reminder of my younger days when I was just starting on my GASeous journey. Ah, the glow from all of those LEDs, and the smell of heated components! Ain"t nostalgia great? I think I"ll go dust off the ol" TX 802.
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Both are correct.

 

For studio use, software has long since sounded better due to larger available sample sizes, CPU power etc, and has infinitely better GUI and workflow. For live use, computers are great in theory but you just can't escape the ultimately fallibility and instability of them. And some of the things they're superior in (like access to huge numbers of articulations in sample-based instruments) are not so relevant when you're playing live and limited to what can be done in one pass, anyway.

 

I have a Yammy motif ES rack and even an old Kurzweil PC2-R that I use live mainly for the KB3 organ, and a few choice sounds though most of it is dated and horrible. I'd njump at being able to have the capacities of a Kronos, Montage AND a few others all at my beck and call for live use, without having to schlepp multiple keyboards to the gig.

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Only thing I really miss is the old amp rigs. Playing though a pair of 3-way passive cabs with 15' bottom drivers and racked amps mixer and processors for stage sound was a way more powerful organic feel than these itty bitty earbuds. But work environment has changed. It used to tickle your ass when you hit a big power synth chord. Powered speakers don"t cut it either. Get fired for playing like that now. ð

 

Never had that 'Can"t hear the keys over guitar" problem here.

 

Still have a storage unit full of old stage amplification gear. Nobody wants those old passive cabs now. I have no idea why I pay rent to store it. Not sure what to do with it. Bonfire? ð¥

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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Both are correct.

 

For studio use, software has long since sounded better due to larger available sample sizes, CPU power etc, and has infinitely better GUI and workflow. For live use, computers are great in theory but you just can't escape the ultimately fallibility and instability of them. And some of the things they're superior in (like access to huge numbers of articulations in sample-based instruments) are not so relevant when you're playing live and limited to what can be done in one pass, anyway.

 

I see you're relatively new here, well this is a topic that does come up quite a bit so all I can say is "here we go again", lol. What "fallibility and instability" do you speak of? I started with a laptop rig in 2001 - that's closing in on 20 years ago. Full-time & exclusively laptop since 2006 - a mere 14 years. Sure I've had a few hiccups but nothing show-stopping (except once, for about 60 seconds when my MOTU audio interface disconnected â I switched to my headphone output & the show went on). That's a pretty good record for the amount of gigs I've done and the number of years I've been doing them, I think. And, even though I'm not keyswitching different articulations in realtime on a gig, I still very much appreciate having my multi-gigabyte acoustic piano with release samples & resonances â whether or not the audience can hear them. I hear them. My other patches are sounding good to me too, and I'm pretty sure some of them would be hard to duplicate on a hardware keyboard. Anyway, as this thread shows, you have to be comfortable with and enjoy your gear, otherwise what's the point of all this? If using hardware makes ya happy then I say "F" software and do your thing! I just wanted to rebut what I see as the typical criticisms about software reliability that seem to come up here. From my experience - it's just not so.

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My issue with software live is more about logistics than reliability--where to put a laptop on a crowded stage in some raunchy bar. In that respect, an ipad is much safer and less tip-over-proof, and my modx allows me to simply incorporate one with one cable, and there is a volume control for it. There are some really excellent (and cheap) IOS synths. I wish every hardware keyboard had a class-compliant interface in it, just to avoid having to bring another piece of gear if nothing else.

 

Someone above mentioned being a hopeless hardware addict, and despite my love of software at home, that somewhat describes me for live. It's a mindset that's hard to overcome. There is no doubt that many people are successful with software live. I still find myself pining after things like a Prophet or Summit knowing full well I have no desire to hook them up to my DAW. It's one reason I'm eyeing the Hydrasynth despite the fact that I probably prefer the sound of Prophet rev 2 for the live stuff I do, it has something to offer for studio use that I really want beyond the sound (ribbon control and poly aftertouch).

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I'm on the stage far more than in the studio. Racks are still the way to go for stage. My stage system is only three keyboards and bass pedals; during events with multiple bands, I can swap in/out fast with the keyboards, and the racks can stay off stage. 90% of the rack mount gear is remote controlled over MIDI; I only touch them during configuration, during performance I do not need access to them.

 

I need a large variety of sounds with my current band, everything from romplers to hammond to analog synths. With the exception of the Andromeda, all analog synths are rack mount. Romplers are the old but reliable Kurzweil 1000PX/1000AX, I get a lot of mileage out of those. Hammond goes through a rack mount Dynacord CLS222 Leslie simulator. Digital FX for romplers and synths. Lot of power in those racks. Only two other keyboards are Hammond XK3 and Kurzweil MIDIBoard.

 

By the time that software synths became viable I had way too much investment in hardware. I had seen one too many shows stopped due to issues with a laptop so I won't gig them. Hardware has a much longer life than any computer.

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It's like turntables, vinyl records, cassette tapes and CDs. Some folks just feel more comfortable with one of those mediums (hardware) versus a WAV or mp3 file (software). :laugh:

 

Every now and then, I'll have a nostalgic moment and think about grabbing a few rackmount tone generators. They're relatively cheap and don't take up as much space as a full KB.

 

Then, along lines similar to what CEB mentioned, I'll take inventory of my 32 channel analog mixer, outboard effects processors, and passive speakers, etc., and realize newer technology (digital mixer) consolidates everything. Powered speakers do not sound as good as passive but they get the job done.

 

The reality is there are hardware and software solutions that make the old rack mount KBs obsolete. The wall of rack gear or big analog mixer just looks better. YMMV.:laugh::cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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I see a lot of folks using laptops in conjunction with multiple modern boards and workstations. I always wonder....is the Montage/Kronos/Fantom/etc... really that limited that it couldn't foot the bill for a typical show? I would think for something like Mainstage, all that you'd REALLY need is a controller or 2. So, giggers with Laptop and Hardware rigs, help me out here.
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One of the main draws for me getting a laptop rig going was not dealing with anything other than a single small controller and the laptop. Playing weddings in the New York City area leads to a severe case of shleprosy. I saw the chance to pair a tiny lightweight controller with a laptop and great VIs to produce, in effect, a "poor man's workstation" â i.e., I could do almost anything a Montage, Kronos or Phantom could do and lots of stuff they couldn't do. So to answer your question from my perspective - yes, all you really need is a laptop & controller, IF you're comfortable with the maintenance and setup. There's definitely more work involved in keeping the various VSTs, USB midi drivers, host software, computer OS, etc. making nice with each other. But once you find that right mix, it's a beautiful thing. My rig has never been more stable (I know I'm gonna suffer for typing that phrase!) and I'm gonna hold off on any major upgrades for a good long while.
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Both are correct.

 

For studio use, software has long since sounded better due to larger available sample sizes, CPU power etc, and has infinitely better GUI and workflow. For live use, computers are great in theory but you just can't escape the ultimately fallibility and instability of them. And some of the things they're superior in (like access to huge numbers of articulations in sample-based instruments) are not so relevant when you're playing live and limited to what can be done in one pass, anyway.

 

I see you're relatively new here, well this is a topic that does come up quite a bit so all I can say is "here we go again", lol. What "fallibility and instability" do you speak of? I started with a laptop rig in 2001 - that's closing in on 20 years ago. Full-time & exclusively laptop since 2006 - a mere 14 years. Sure I've had a few hiccups but nothing show-stopping (except once, for about 60 seconds when my MOTU audio interface disconnected â I switched to my headphone output & the show went on). That's a pretty good record for the amount of gigs I've done and the number of years I've been doing them, I think. And, even though I'm not keyswitching different articulations in realtime on a gig, I still very much appreciate having my multi-gigabyte acoustic piano with release samples & resonances â whether or not the audience can hear them. I hear them. My other patches are sounding good to me too, and I'm pretty sure some of them would be hard to duplicate on a hardware keyboard. Anyway, as this thread shows, you have to be comfortable with and enjoy your gear, otherwise what's the point of all this? If using hardware makes ya happy then I say "F" software and do your thing! I just wanted to rebut what I see as the typical criticisms about software reliability that seem to come up here. From my experience - it's just not so.

 

 

Well arguing about general principles on the basis of one person's individual experience doesn't make much sense. Looking at the operation of lots of such units in various real world situations, there's no way anyone can reasonably deny that computers are less stable and reliable than specialist audio hardware units. You just can't. They crash more often. Unexpected things due to unforeseen conflicts between software, updates etc. happen more often. They're more likely to have some internal part start functioning differently and cause overheating, etc. etc. These things are simply true.

 

Of course, HOW true is another question. It may well be that someone's computer creates such a drastic problem once every five years, whereas their rack unit simply NEVER does, and they can live happily with such a minor downside for what it gives them. Or it may be worse than that.

 

A lot has to do with how good you are at maintaining computers. I've done it, live, and I agree with you it had fantastic advantages. And it generally worked well for me. I had a few problems but only one that really fucked me up, in terms of not being asked back again. To be honest, what ended up making me feel it wasn't worth it was not the number of times things went wrong, but the amount of time and hassle that went into maintaining the system in such as way that I could ensure they wouldn't. But as with anything, YMMV.

 

Keep meaning to reintegrate a computer into live work but in such a way that I don't rely on it entirely. Eg use keyboard sounds for bread and butter but have option of routing some things to computer for where it really shines, with backup from keyboard if necessary. That seems like the way to go.

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One of the main draws for me getting a laptop rig going was not dealing with anything other than a single small controller and the laptop. Playing weddings in the New York City area leads to a severe case of shleprosy. I saw the chance to pair a tiny lightweight controller with a laptop and great VIs to produce, in effect, a "poor man's workstation" â i.e., I could do almost anything a Montage, Kronos or Phantom could do and lots of stuff they couldn't do. So to answer your question from my perspective - yes, all you really need is a laptop & controller, IF you're comfortable with the maintenance and setup. There's definitely more work involved in keeping the various VSTs, USB midi drivers, host software, computer OS, etc. making nice with each other. But once you find that right mix, it's a beautiful thing. My rig has never been more stable (I know I'm gonna suffer for typing that phrase!) and I'm gonna hold off on any major upgrades for a good long while.

 

I can see that, but wouldn't something like a 73 key Kronos (or even a 61, depending on just how "tiny" your current MIDI controller is) really be that much more schlepp? And wouldn't any difference be made up for by the fact it's in one box rather than two, not needing cable connections between yada yada, and the reduced maintenance and setup?

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I play a 10 lb Roland 61-key controller, so yea, significantly less shlep than even a 61-key hardware board. I carry it easily in one hand, in a light SKB case. The laptop is in my backpack, on my back, along with cables & other doodads â so not a bear to deal with at all. The setup, for local gigs, is a single USB cable that carries power & midi (on the road I'll use 5-pin midi so a few more things to hook up). It's pretty simple. Not as simple as turning on a keyboard but very close. Two clicks and I've loaded my setup. Plug in a 1/8" stereo minijack cable that goes directly to my two QSC K8s and I'm ready to go. The laptop sits in an SKB "Studio Flyer" and is usually in back of me, but could be anywhere safe on stage â I don't need to look at or touch it during a gig. There isn't any hardware keyboard I can think of that'll give me the combination of light weight and top-shelf sounds I enjoy playing and hearing. And for that, yes, I deal with the vagaries of keeping a laptop rig healthy and trouble-free but I've been doing it a long time and I have what I feel is a very stable setup that I'm happy with. I almost feel sorry for all the folks with GAS here.

 

As far as the reliability factor, I guess I can only speak for myself. I've been into computers a long time and actually get enjoyment out of combining that aspect of myself with my music-making side. If I posted a screencap of my Plogue Bidule setup (that's my host app for VST and AUs) you'd probably laugh â before having me committed! :)

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I have a small rack underneath my two-tier keyboard stand, for the Furman Power Supply and an Audio Interface; stuff I never touch. I need to have a synth right in front of me, even having a desktop module off to the side seems less ergonomic.
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Apart from always having a few keyboards / workstations around - usually the ones I play live with - I've been mostly living in a software world. But I like the fact that I can now buy flagship rack synths that I didn't / couldn't have when they were new, and explore that world. Like recently I got a Roland XV-5080 with a bag load of expansion boards, a Korg TR-Rack and an Ensoniq DP/4 - all just fantastic units still to this day...albeit very 90s also (but that's ok, the 80s are gone but the 90s are back!). I also had a Yamaha TX802 and a Roland D-550 but those didn't really have any advantage over their plugin or Boutique versions so I sold them.

 

Ironically, I wouldn't even have the desk space for a "desktop" module but I do have some extra space for racks!

 

...software has long since sounded better due to larger available sample sizes, CPU power etc, and has infinitely better GUI and workflow. .

 

Well, what is "better"... If we're talking sample libraries, then sure, a multi-gigabyte library is going to sound more realistic than a couple megabytes of short mono samples. But those flagship samplers (and rack synths) had such high quality top-of-the-line converters, that even if you load the same samples in Kontakt - the sampler is going to sound better in my book. Loading the same drum samples in a plugin vs a Roland S-760 for example. Or the rack version of a synth that also exists in plugin form. IMO.

 

Granted, you can then DO extensive stuff to the Kontakt set or plugin that'll make it sound good with a multitude of plugins, emulations of expensive hardware units etc.

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Well, what is "better"... If we're talking sample libraries, then sure, a multi-gigabyte library is going to sound more realistic than a couple megabytes of short mono samples. But those flagship samplers (and rack synths) had such high quality top-of-the-line converters, that even if you load the same samples in Kontakt - the sampler is going to sound better in my book. Loading the same drum samples in a plugin vs a Roland S-760 for example. Or the rack version of a synth that also exists in plugin form. IMO.

 

Granted, you can then DO extensive stuff to the Kontakt set or plugin that'll make it sound good with a multitude of plugins, emulations of expensive hardware units etc.

 

Umm... no. Those flagship samplers and rack synths may sound better to you for a host of reasons. But one of them is not because of higher quality D/A converter chips. Especially compared to converters used in most of today's interfaces - even the less expensive stuff. This is a myth that was often sold by marketing back in the day and continues to be propogated forward by folks who aren't up on tech.

 

Again I'm not disputing that there may be other reasons why certain hardware sounds "better".

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The more I read this thread the more I'm convinced that there's a psych element to this love of the old rack-mount guys. Kind of like that fake tube in the Korg keyboard? You have this big hunk 'o metal with nice knobs, buttons and switches and somehow that gives one the warm & fuzzies and you're thinking it's "better." Maybe someone should mention the fact that inside that rack-mount, ones and zeroes are flying around the same way they are in any modern keyboard or computer. And yes, ADL, it sounds ridiculous to think d/a converter design hasn't improved in 30 years!

 

Of course, this is music we're talking about - not particle physics â and if the warm & fuzzies you get from that old hunk 'o metal contribute to your making the kind of music you like and are proud of, then yes it is better and I'm all for it!

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I have a small rack underneath my two-tier keyboard stand, for the Furman Power Supply and an Audio Interface; stuff I never touch. I need to have a synth right in front of me, even having a desktop module off to the side seems less ergonomic.

I'm inclined to agree, especially with the off to the side thing. I'll almost never program anything that's not right in front of my face unless I have to.

 

I can't see how it's not better to have everything laid out on one big screen in front of you as you sit at your desk.

If you're gonna be tweaking and programming, no question. :thu:

 

dB

:snax:

 

:keys:==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <==:rawk:

 

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A lot of it boils down to convenience of where you live. Gigging keyboard players who live in metropolitan cities like NYC don't have the luxury to haul racks in taxis or subway cars so the most compact solution is the best. As for myself there is no public transportation where I live - the only restrictions to cartage space is the vehicle we own. I had always owned a pickup truck to cart my own gear, and racks have a side benefit in that carrying those heavy weights keep me in shape.
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