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New Mic Pre Day NMPD!
#3063171 09/21/20 07:46 AM
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This can be a thread where we share our experiences with various mic pres. Any and all price levels, we have all sorts of forumites - I am not able to go out and grab a $5,000 mic pre but that doesn't mean I can't get anything good.
Some inexpensive gear works surprisingly well for certain tasks.

Today I took a new-to-me used Blue Robbie mic pre for a spin. There are lots of reviews online, Blue still has the manual available, etc.

One came up on eBay with a reasonable buy it now price ($340) so I bit. The cost of shipping for a return is a small price to pay if it turns out you don't care for the sound or ergonomics.
I know that these sold new for around $899 and I've read that you can still order one from Blue but they build to order and they are now $1,200. Whatever, just numbers.

I like the sound a great deal, it is a quiet mic pre with a full low end and midrange and smooth, clear highs. There are two other features that stand out to me:

I like that the single tube is easily accessable yet well protected on the front of the preamp. There is a stout clear plastic cover with a metal "bump" ring that screws on or off and the tube is right there at your fingertips.
No need to take the thing apart and no need to test individual tubes since there is only one to replace. Simple and smart. There is considerable dispute online as to whether this is a "starved plate" design. I don't honestly know, if this was entirely solid-state and sounded the way it sounds I would be pleased with it. I'll leave that for the quibblers - it's not high voltage but that is different than starved plate. The tube is fairly common in tube mics - ECC88. I don't hear tube distortion, maybe I need to push the front end with a Cloudlifter? I don't need distortion anyway, that isn't what I purchased this for.

I also like the large gain knob mounted on a silky smooth, noise-free pot. One review pointed out that this could be used to "ride the fader" and it is true. I have a client with quite a dynamic range and I will be trying this on Friday when we have our next session. I am familiar with the song, I know when to turn it down and back up again. I'll test for the 3 basic levels the singer uses, mark them and work it going in. I think this could be the best feature on the unit. My Focusrite ISA One pre has a 4 position gain switch and a +20db trim knob. The knobs are much smaller and both of them need to be cleaned, a bit of static when turned. Useless for adjusting on the fly.

The feature I don't care for is the switches for +48v, Mic/Inst (there is a DI input on the front panel), 20db pad and polarity reverse are all on the back. I would have liked those on the front. I may just leave this sitting on top of the rack for ease of use. I've already memorized the position of the +48, the one I'll use the most since I often switch from condenser mic to dynamic. I can just reach over and switch that.

If you have a mic pre you like, please share. Updates are good too, I plan on updating this after I learn more about how it compares to what I already have.


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Re: New Mic Pre Day NMPD!
KuruPrionz #3063272 09/22/20 04:01 AM
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Looking at the dedicated power supply, I don't want to cut the cables down short for a better organized rack so I am going to keep it on the top.
Will find a small case for it in the event I want to transport it.

I get why they went with a line lump and it is a stout and well made one. Still, an internal power supply with an AC cord would have been nice. So it goes...


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Re: New Mic Pre Day NMPD!
KuruPrionz #3063636 09/24/20 05:37 PM
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I love mic pres. So many flavors and topologies - I'd almost rather switch pres than mics sometimes.

My baby is my Groove Tubes VIPre. Seven lovely tube stages, eight if you go i through the instrument in on the front. SO much love, color and personality...

I'm also quite fond of my AEA RPQ500 modules. The exact opposite of the VIPre - really clean and pristine.

I've just started poking around with the pres in the Universal Audio Apollo x8 I just got. Until now, I've been all about hardware to get into the box...but with the flexibity of their software without having to deal with the usual latency issues, I'm rethinking that since the addition of the Apollo. I like the idea of being able to save/recall some of my input chain setting.

dB

Re: New Mic Pre Day NMPD!
Grave Bryce #3063644 09/24/20 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Bryce
I love mic pres. So many flavors and topologies - I'd almost rather switch pres than mics sometimes.

My baby is my Groove Tubes VIPre. Seven lovely tube stages, eight if you go i through the instrument in on the front. SO much love, color and personality...

I'm also quite fond of my AEA RPQ500 modules. The exact opposite of the VIPre - really clean and pristine.

I've just started poking around with the pres in the Universal Audio Apollo x8 I just got. Until now, I've been all about hardware to get into the box...but with the flexibity of their software without having to deal with the usual latency issues, I'm rethinking that since the addition of the Apollo. I like the idea of being able to save/recall some of my input chain setting.

dB

Nice stuff dB!!! Since I've decided to keep the Robbie outside the rack I won't have to re-do my patch bay situation. That leaves one more rack space.
I will wait and swoop if and when the time is right. LOVE mic pres!

In other news, last night I experimented with running the Robbie through an Art Levelar (don't laugh, even Tape Op liked it!). I think I will pick up another one, it's a different animal from the usual small ART tube thingies that sort of sound pretty OK, kinda. I would actually prefer the Levelar on some tracks over my RNC, it has a great limiter - top down. Will be trying it Saturday, I have a vocalist to record and she goes from a whisper to a scream in a splendid fashion. I want to try riding the gain on the Robbie and also letting the Levelar do it's thing and see which one I prefer.


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Re: New Mic Pre Day NMPD!
Grave Bryce #3063697 09/25/20 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Bryce
I love mic pres. So many flavors and topologies - I'd almost rather switch pres than mics sometimes.

My baby is my Groove Tubes VIPre. Seven lovely tube stages, eight if you go i through the instrument in on the front. SO much love, color and personality...

Yes, the ViPre was quite a preamp. Aspen outdid himself with that one.

If you recall, there was quite a heap of mic preamps that came out in the early 1980s, and one of the things that people were talking about then is just what you said at the beginning of your message - that having a selection of preamps let you get a wide variety of sounds out of any mics that ou already had. A lot of the sound of a mic/preamp combination had more to do with the interface between the mic and preamp than the sound of the preamp itself. A given mic output transformer will react differently to different preamps, as will a preamp input react differently with different mics.

The popular (mostly due to lower cost) of transformerless mics and preamps spoiled all the fun, though. A given mic sounded pretty much the same through different preamps. There were differences, sure, but since preamp manufacturers were after the "straight wire with gain" sound, leaving out the components that caused most of the distortion in the signal chain made the differences more subtle.

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Re: New Mic Pre Day NMPD!
Mike Rivers #3063709 09/25/20 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rivers
The popular (mostly due to lower cost) of transformerless mics and preamps spoiled all the fun, though. A given mic sounded pretty much the same through different preamps. There were differences, sure, but since preamp manufacturers were after the "straight wire with gain" sound, leaving out the components that caused most of the distortion in the signal chain made the differences more subtle.

This is a thought provoking post. As you and I found with the Beyer transformer, it is only one part of a euphonious sounding circuit and cannot "play that trick" on it's own. The Ampex circuit that made the Beyer famous is a tube circuit, I don't know much else about it except that I have probably heard it on records and didn't know what I was listening to.

The Focusrite ISA One mic pre has a Lundahl input transformer and a sound of its own that I really like - bigger, more "real" than the "mic pres" in my Presonus Quantum. It is solid state and I assume there are ICs since I've never seen any bragging about discrete circuitry. My Presonus Eureka mic pres (I have 2) have an input transformer and a fairly worthless JFET drain control called "Saturation" that hasn't done anything I've liked so far. I will admit I've never dimed the Gain knob - which goes to 54 (take THAT Spinal Tap!!!!) and maybe that's what you need to combine it with, who knows? The Eureka sounds good (but not great), is very low noise and with the compressor and EQ it offers some great bang for the buck for bottom feeders like me. Obviously at the price point it is an IC based solid state circuit. Probably the pick of the litter in less expensive channel strips, at least at this point.

The Blue Robbie that prompted me starting this thread does not have any transformers at all. It does have a tube, running at fairly low voltage but the ECC88 seems to work pretty well over a fairly wide range of plate voltages so it isn't truly a "starved plate" design like some of the stuff that uses a 12AX7. It also boasts fully discrete circuitry, no ICs and it has a different "bigger than real" sound than the Focusrite. It is very clear, not a distortion sound. There is only one knob so you really can't play any gain tricks with it. Other than tube rolling your options are pretty limited. I guess you could give it a shove with a Cloudlifter - I plan on doing that, possibly Saturday when I am tracking vocals.

And here I go, off into the weeds!!! I've owned MANY tube guitar amps, the first one was a converted PA head that I used to crank up 50 years ago. I've owned vintage Fender, Gibson, Supro, Kay Orpheus etc. 9 Mesa Boogies, a Red Plate Blues Machine (Dumble clone), an Allen Accomplice, a Vox AC-15 Top Cut clone with EF86 preamp tube and all sorts of other tube guitar amps - both "boutique" and "yard sale scores". I have a really solid sense of all the variations of tube/transformer goodness in a huge range of volumes and levels of distortion.

I've also been using Tech 21 products for over 10 years and my Tri-AC won the tracking position at a very nice local recording studio over a Mesa Subway Rocket, an Emerysound Stage Baby and the studio's Marshall tube combo.
Sansamp is a great sounding transformerless IC circuit that can simulate a huge range of different distortions. For all that, if I could get a well made channel strip with Hartley Peavey's latest iteration of TransTube, I'd grab it in a heartbeat and ignore many other options. I've often pondered how much trouble it would be to modify a Vypyr Pro with a mic preamp and a quiet Line Out. I can dial in amazing "tube amp tones" with a Vypyr. I suspect they are disliked because the presets are horrible, the speakers are cheap and they say "Peavey" on them. Plus they don't cost much and don't feel real solid, despite being pretty bullet-proof.

I guess where I am going this is - are some potentially excellent circuit options being overlooked because they lack the "ish" of studio gear? Inquiring minds want to know!


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Re: New Mic Pre Day NMPD!
KuruPrionz #3063792 09/25/20 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
The Focusrite ISA One mic pre has a Lundahl input transformer and a sound of its own that I really like - bigger, more "real" than the "mic pres" in my Presonus Quantum. It is solid state and I assume there are ICs since I've never seen any bragging about discrete circuitry. My Presonus Eureka mic pres (I have 2) have an input transformer and a fairly worthless JFET drain control called "Saturation" that hasn't done anything I've liked so far. I will admit I've never dimed the Gain knob.

Crank it up and see if it gets cranky. I suspect that the "Saturation" control and the signal level that the tube sees are interactive. With little enough signal it probably won't distort enough to excite you. Probably with too much signal it'll sounds like it's broken. You can probably find a place between the two controls that gives you some range of control over the garbage, and there might be something in there that's interesting and unique to the Eureka.

As far as the Focusrite ISA goes, well, transformers can have a "sound" due to their inductance and capacitance, even though it's not a "saturation" sound. It affects frequency response and, I suspect phase response, too, so that after going through the transformer, the upper harmonics aren't time-aligned with what they're harmonics of.

But, you know, with audio hardware, there's a lot of subjectivity. When the first ISA model was built, they probably bought what looked like a good transformer from a reputable manufacturer who was making the best sounding transformers that he could. Focusrite liked what their electronics sounded like when fed from a mic going through that transformer, so they kept it in the design.

Contrast this with Scott Dorsey's Kludge Audio colored transformer in a 500-series rack module. He worked with a transformer builder to achieve the sound of a vintage console that had a couple of interstage transformers, because that's where "the sound" comes from, not from the input side of a mic preamp. In fact, interestingly, the transformer's coloration doesn't change very much with varying levels. Why? Because once the signal gets into the innards of the console it pretty much stays at line level (within the dynamic range of the program material, of course) and doesn't really have a way of overdriving a stage. Get the input right on a console an you will have all the headroom you need.

Quote
I've also been using Tech 21 products for over 10 years . . . . Sansamp is a great sounding transformerless IC circuit that can simulate a huge range of different distortions. For all that, if I could get a well made channel strip with Hartley Peavey's latest iteration of TransTube, I'd grab it in a heartbeat and ignore many other options. . . I guess where I am going this is - are some potentially excellent circuit options being overlooked because they lack the "ish" of studio gear? Inquiring minds want to know!

Of course once you get into the electronics, you can design anything you want. It's up to the imagination of the designers and what the marketing department tells them what the kids are hot about at the time. And there are many approaches. And when it comes to emulating a known sound characteristic, one of the neat things that they're doing now is mathematically modeling the circuit they want to emulate, using very detailed data about each component - It's not just a 0.05 microfarad capacitor, it's a 2 megohm resistor and a 20 microhenry inductor, too - and then creating a digital algorithm that mimics the circuit. Or you can start with a circuit of your own design and tweak the model to get the sound that you're looking for.Takes more brains than winding a transformer or selecting a tube that you can bias between clean and dirty without blowing anything up or losing needed headroom. But it's cheaper, particularly if it's software-only.

It would be interesting to learn what the creators of a new device that involves coloration think about when deciding what will be their new flavor that isn't just like the other flavor.

If we still had real AES or NAMM shows, I'd like to talk about this with the Eventide folks. They seem to be playing in the deep end of the pool these days with some of their new software.

Re: New Mic Pre Day NMPD!
KuruPrionz #3063809 09/26/20 01:32 AM
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More good stuff, Sir Mike! Quotes start getting messy, I'll respond in a somewhat linear fashion to the above.

I plan on testing the limits of the Eureka soon. I read all the reviews before buying the first one. The consensus is that is is one of the best lower cost options on the used market. There is no tube by the way. Presonus does make some tube gear but the Eureka is solid state. The preamp before the transformer is touted as "discreet" but it's based on a socketed chip. Some internet recording engineers recommend chip-swapping for "better sound" but I haven't messed with that. Reps from Presonus have mentioned that the socketed chips were done for that very reason. The early Eurekas have Jensen transformers, I've never looked inside mine. It won't change the sound of the ones I have to know what's in there. It might change the value, I'd look before I sold them. For now, they stay.

It seems to be pretty good on it's own, I do like the preamp better than the one in the Quantum but not by a huge margin. Add in either/both the compressor and the EQ and there is no comparison. I got a great bass tone using the DI and tweaking everything, I'd never get that tone straight into the Quantum.

I don't mind using plugins and some of them are great but I also feel like you should be able to get a really nice sound going in first. Maybe you don't need to do much in the box if you can get it first.

The Focusrite doesn't have an output level control so it's more difficult to manipulate it. A Cloudlifter does seem to push it to a more intense version of the same euphonious tone. I like it, a very good pre and the DI is nice as well.
Mine has a bit of an "Itchy" gain switch and Trim knob so I probably need to open it up and give the a shot. I'll try turning them back and forth several times first, that almost always improves things

Transformers are interesting widgets. I am certain designers would not use them if they didn't get the sound they want.

Tech 21 started as a one man operation - Andrew Barta created the "Sansamp and started selling it in 1989. He is still there, they are still in NYC and it is his company. Sansamp is an all-analog simulation of tube amp behaviors and remarkably excellent. My Tri AC does very good Fender guitar and bass amp simulations, also Marshall and Mesa. It's simple, super quick to save settings (digital switching of analog controls), sounds great and with a battery is quiet enough for studio use. I've got their Bass Driver DI and Para Driver DI also, really great stuff.

Hartley Peavey wrote a white paper on his long standing obsession with creating solid state circuits that simulate tube amp behavior. TransTube version 1 came out in the mid 90's. Version 2 is in the Red Stripe series that eventually saw the manufacturing move to China. Version 3 would be the first series of Vypyr amps and I guess they may be at version 4 or 5 by now.

This is truly an interesting read and not terribly long - https://peavey.com/PDFs/Chapter3.pdf

I'm with you on Eventide, I recently got their Physion and Micro-Pitch plugins and I really like the great sounds, the useable presets and the sensible GUI. They've got a great team there!!!!


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Re: New Mic Pre Day NMPD!
KuruPrionz #3063820 09/26/20 06:28 AM
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An update on the Robbie, since I was setting it up tonight for a session tomorrow. With a Shure KSM8 and a Cloudlifter in front it started to create a mild but annoying high mid distortion tone. Too much output hitting the front end, that's what I thought it sounded like.
With a lower output mic like my CAD D-82 ribbon or EV PL95 a Cloudlifter is probably a happy place. It would also depend on the volume of the singer, the lady I record tomorrow can really belt it out at times.
Since we've already tested mics and both preferred the KSM8, I pulled the Cloudlifter out of the circuit.

I also played with my new/used ART Levelar. Only two knobs but you also have switchable choices with Limiter/Compressor and Fast/Auto so tweaking is required. Threshold is the key and just a little goes a long way for tracking.
Make-up Gain is labelled "Output" - same thing and very low noise. I replaced the EH Sovtek 12ax7 that was in it with a Tesla E83CC, a low noise high fidelity tube. You can hit the ART pretty hard, it comes after the Robbie - which I had turned most of the way up. There is probably a bit of distortion but it isn't ugly or extreme so goodie.

Tomorrow we'll try with the ART bypassed, with it engaged to lower the peaks and also just having her raise her chin up and sing over the mic. The KSM8 has very even pickup for indirect sounds, they still sound about the same as singing straight in. So far I like the tone of this mic pre, it is subtle but entirely pleasant. Smooth highs and a full sounding lower mid with zero mudrange.

I've got an NOS Sylvania 6922 (E88CC) coming Monday. It has been my experience time and again that Sylvania tubes have a bit more gain than most and this one does test higher than the standard set by Hickok.
I don't expect it to make a huge difference. If it is reliable and quiet I'll be happy. I am willing to be surprised.


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Re: New Mic Pre Day NMPD!
KuruPrionz #3063835 09/26/20 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
I plan on testing the limits of the Eureka soon. There is no tube by the way. Presonus does make some tube gear but the Eureka is solid state.

PreSonus dabbled in tube preamps and I think still have one in their catalog. But in the mid 2000's, PerSonus collaborated with audio designer Anthony DeMaria (his own company was ADL) to create the tube-based ADL 600 preamp and ADL 700 channel strip. They were too nice and too expensive for their time

Quote
The [Eureka] preamp before the transformer is touted as "discreet" but it's based on a socketed chip. Some internet recording engineers recommend chip-swapping for "better sound" but I haven't messed with that.

That's probably a 990 Twin Servo op amp, a circuit originally designed by Deane Jensen around 1980 was built in what became a de facto modular format in slight variations by several companies. [Linked Image from fullcompass.com]
It was designed as a general purpose audio op-amp and found its way into several higher-end mic preamps, signal processors, and as a solid state line-level replacement for the interstage transformer in several consoles. API's variant was the 2620 and it and it's evolutions are found in many of their consoles I recall a couple of mic preamps from the 1990s that used the 990, and provided a socket like the Eureka has, with the suggestion that you could swap modules for color variations. That idea didn't last, probably because either the companies were too small or the concept was too expensive.

Today, John Hardy builds a 990 that he uses in his products. A good primer on it is here. Be gentle with your brain and just read the first two pages or so.I have an Ultra Sound 8-channel mic preamp that has the Hardy 990s and Jensen input and output transformers. It's a brick. Ultra Sound was a small company in the San Francisco area that built some gear for the Grateful Dead. The founder was Don Pearson, who used to live in the DC area and did sound for a lot of outdoor shows here. Really smart guy, nice, too, and died too early.

Quote
Hartley Peavey wrote a white paper on his long standing obsession with creating solid state circuits that simulate tube amp behavior. TransTube version 1 came out in the mid 90's. Version 2 is in the Red Stripe series that eventually saw the manufacturing move to China. Version 3 would be the first series of Vypyr amps and I guess they may be at version 4 or 5 by now.

He has some good points there, and it seems like a reasonable collection of distortions that make up what guitar players want to hear. Interesting point that the best output transformers make the worst output transformers for a guitar amplifier because they're too good.

Re: New Mic Pre Day NMPD!
Mike Rivers #3063844 09/26/20 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rivers
Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
I plan on testing the limits of the Eureka soon. There is no tube by the way. Presonus does make some tube gear but the Eureka is solid state.

PreSonus dabbled in tube preamps and I think still have one in their catalog. But in the mid 2000's, PerSonus collaborated with audio designer Anthony DeMaria (his own company was ADL) to create the tube-based ADL 600 preamp and ADL 700 channel strip. They were too nice and too expensive for their time

Quote
The [Eureka] preamp before the transformer is touted as "discreet" but it's based on a socketed chip. Some internet recording engineers recommend chip-swapping for "better sound" but I haven't messed with that.

That's probably a 990 Twin Servo op amp, a circuit originally designed by Deane Jensen around 1980 was built in what became a de facto modular format in slight variations by several companies. [Linked Image from fullcompass.com]
It was designed as a general purpose audio op-amp and found its way into several higher-end mic preamps, signal processors, and as a solid state line-level replacement for the interstage transformer in several consoles. API's variant was the 2620 and it and it's evolutions are found in many of their consoles I recall a couple of mic preamps from the 1990s that used the 990, and provided a socket like the Eureka has, with the suggestion that you could swap modules for color variations. That idea didn't last, probably because either the companies were too small or the concept was too expensive.

Today, John Hardy builds a 990 that he uses in his products. A good primer on it is here. Be gentle with your brain and just read the first two pages or so.I have an Ultra Sound 8-channel mic preamp that has the Hardy 990s and Jensen input and output transformers. It's a brick. Ultra Sound was a small company in the San Francisco area that built some gear for the Grateful Dead. The founder was Don Pearson, who used to live in the DC area and did sound for a lot of outdoor shows here. Really smart guy, nice, too, and died too early.

Quote
Hartley Peavey wrote a white paper on his long standing obsession with creating solid state circuits that simulate tube amp behavior. TransTube version 1 came out in the mid 90's. Version 2 is in the Red Stripe series that eventually saw the manufacturing move to China. Version 3 would be the first series of Vypyr amps and I guess they may be at version 4 or 5 by now.

He has some good points there, and it seems like a reasonable collection of distortions that make up what guitar players want to hear. Interesting point that the best output transformers make the worst output transformers for a guitar amplifier because they're too good.


Those collaboration Presonus / ADL mic preamps are still pretty spendy on the used market when you can find one. They look like great stuff too!
Presonus current channel strip offering is the Presonus Studio Channel and it does have a tube in the preamp. Reviews are pretty good for the most part but nobody has bowed down before it.
I might try one someday.

The thing I love the most about TransTube is the lower gain settings. If you could get a mic pre that had TransTube with a blend knob you could get no end of subtle distortion effects.
When I put a better speaker in my VIP 1 it transformed into an all time favorite small guitar amp. I have the VIP 3 and it just gushes air.
The caveat is that you have to understand how the circuit works and the depth of the engineering. The VIP 3 is 100 watts. If you run it as a 100 watt amp it is a somewhat above average solid state guitar amp.
If you turn the "Power Soak" (marketing ish) down to 1% and turn up the Master Volume then it really starts to take on the character of a great sounding smaller tube amp. Tones that aren't super distorted have a natural singing tone and just sound great.

I think most players surf the presets in the store and run away. I don't blame them, if that was all that is on offer I would run away too. So they remain unheralded, sort of a secret weapon I guess. Or a reason for other guitarists to stick their nose up in the air. A good friend and fellow guitarist came up to me after a set wondering how I got "all those tones" out of a Peavey Red Strip Studio Pro 112 and a TC Flashback X4. I handed him my 2mm Gator pick. I was only sort of kidding but I also knew he would never abandon his tube amps or huge pedalboard. So it goes.

Here is a review of the Eureka by Hugh Robjohns. He describes the technicals more accurately than I have. Looks like the initial input stage is discrete components.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/presonus-eureka

Last edited by KuruPrionz; 09/27/20 03:43 PM. Reason: added review

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Re: New Mic Pre Day NMPD!
KuruPrionz #3063932 09/27/20 04:17 PM
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We used the Robbie for tracking vocals yesterday, refining as the day progressed.
The Shure KSM8 was used as the vocal mic, mounted in my isolation box.
First up was a rock tune, I had the ART Levelar taking the output of the Robbie and gave it just squeeze of compression to even things out. It worked well, we have some keeper takes.

Next up was a more more atmospheric "vampire rock" (Concrete Blondish?) tune. I moved the mic back into the box a bit more, added a Cloudlifter to the front end of the Robbie, pulled the ART and had the singer move back about 6 inches. That worked well too. A bit more vocal bleed into the guitars. I've adjusted the position of those mics and will keep the current setup for the session on Tuesday.

As always "one modification leads to another".


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Re: New Mic Pre Day NMPD!
KuruPrionz #3065577 10/10/20 04:25 PM
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Yesterday I used the Di to track a Nashville tuned Ibanez Gio Mikro and a baritone Franken-Tele (warmoth neck). Good sounding DI, I like it. Different flavor than the DI in the Focusrite ISA One. Just as good but not the same, another option.


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...

Moderated by  gm 

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