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Best Keyboard for Clav?


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Hello,

 

I am looking for recommendations/advice on picking up a new keyboard which I initially thought to be for clavinet only, and that still may be my approach, but I am also considering it for Hammond secondarily (so maybe 75% Clav, 25% Hammond).

 

Luckily I already have a Roland RD for pianos so a fully weighted hammer action and piano sound are not important for this new purchase. The action should be better suited to clav and organ.

Some of the keyboards I have been considering include: Hammond SK"s, Roland V-Combo"s, Vox Continental, Viscount Legend 70"s, Crumar Mojo 61, and Crumar Seven

 

I"ve never bought a used instrument but was considering an SK-2 since the single set of drawbars would likely not be an issue and I might think to more or less 'permanently' assign clav to one manual (and organ to the other).

 

Something like the Viscount is attractive because it"s gorgeous and has a dedicated clav module; Its downsides are cost and most importantly this is probably the wrong keybed for clav and organ (although I notice some hammer action keyboards are criticized for being too light which in my case might be a positive).

 

Cost is not the driving factor⦠yet the thought that a $999 VR-09 could possibly fit the bill is attractive, and I admit I"ve often been a little put off in the past by the cost of some of the Nords⦠and some of the above fall into that same price tier.

 

Others I should consider? Thoughts about those I"ve listed for my needs?

 

Thanks in advance-

 

(PS My old login info from years ago was inaccessible so I created this new account.)

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for clavinet only, this is the clear winner.

 

[url:https://www.vintagevibe.com/products/vibanet]VINTAGE VIBE VIBANET[/url]

 

I own a Vox Continental 61 and the clavinet sounds are very, very, good, as is the Korg Kronos also.

:nopity:
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I owned a Roland VR-09. I used it for general purpose sounds (AP, EP, Hammond, Clav). I like the sound (and I like Roland's version of clavs), and I hated the keyboard. The action is very light and I had a really hard time controlling dynamics for AP and EP play. To my fingers, the black keys felt very narrow at the top, and my fingers kept missing or sliding off the black notes regardless of what sound I was using. I got rid of the VR-09 and replaced it with a Nord Electro, whose keyboard I like much better for AP and EP play (and I don't really like the Nord version of clavs - so there's that).

 

But if you are only using it for clavs or Hammond sounds, the fly-weight keyboard may be right for you As you say, the price of a VR-09 is very attractive.

 

Have fun.

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What about a module and then pick the controllers with the best keyboard feel? The gemini module would provide both the organ/leslie with VB3ii and also provides the Clavinet with all 6 switches and the mute slider option. Pick two keyboards of your choice to control the module and you're off and running.

 

https://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=showproduct&b=43

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

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About clav, I have both a Roland VR09 and a Nord Electro.

 

About clav:

 

The VR clav is much more editable, but the Nord covers in a straightforward way the pickups and other real stuff of a real clav. On the VR09, with the lighter keys I find it easier to play percussevily and it also has the off key sample. One huge downside for me on the Roland is the absence of pedal wah, I have to plug an external wah, but you might be satisfied with the internal auto wah or phaser.

 

About organ, regarding the boards I own:

 

My Electro is the 2, so it's very outdated, but i still like it. The VR you have to dig a bit to get a great organ sound, but once you do, it's very good to my taste. The Nords, old or new, come more "ready" and sound good especially on band mix.

 

With all that said, I would go with a Hammond SK LOL

My drawbars go to eleven.

Gear: Roland VR-09, Nord Electro 2 61, Korg CX-3. Hear my music: facebook.com/smokestoneband

 

 

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for clavinet only, this is the clear winner.

 

[url:https://www.vintagevibe.com/products/vibanet]VINTAGE VIBE VIBANET[/url]

 

 

This.

 

I mean, have you played a clav before. Are you looking for something that plays like a clav or something that just has a great clav sound. They feel of a clavinet is sort of it"s own thing and lends itself to how you play it. .... that crisp resistance thing.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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I"ve never bought a used instrument but was considering an SK-2 since the single set of drawbars would likely not be an issue and I might think to more or less 'permanently' assign clav to one manual (and organ to the other).

 

I'm not too picky about my clav tone but I can confirm this setup works and sounds good to me. The SK2 has several of the Clav pickup configurations to choose from, as well as many standard clav effects on board (e.g., auto-wah). I often do gigs with the SK2 configured as you've described: organ on the upper manual, and I toggle between Clav and Wurli on the bottom manual. (I don't remember if non-organ tones can be assigned to the upper manual.) I LOVE that this setup eliminates the need to bring an additional board. 2 in 1!

 

I vaguely recall that, when I was researching my SK2 purchase, I found a few internet nuggets (posts on this forum?) where people who are much more concerned than me with authentic clav tone and feel were highly complimentary of the SK2.

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I used to own a Clavinet and I'm getting good emulations from my Hammond XK3c. The fact it can be routed through the tube overdrive goes a long way to making the sound more authentic. Plus the XK3c action is close to the real thing and you can layer clav and Hammond for biting sounds.
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I have IK Multimedia's Clavitube, lots of great clavinet sounds there.

 

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/stclavitube/?pkey=stsounds-clavitube

 

A couple of friends from long ago had Clavinets and we've all heard records with them. Plus I saw Herbie Hancock on the Headhunters tour.

I didn't think I needed more plugins until I heard Clavitube. I use a Fishman Triple Play pickup on my guitar to play it, works great.

 

SampleTank Custom Shop is free, you could host it there. They also make a Hammond and a Leslie plugin, I have the Leslie and it's nice.

Haven't tried the Hammond.

 

Maybe add an iPad to your setup?

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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Obviously the Vibanet is the one to get, but pricey for sure. I've never owned a real Clav, but am old enough to have played them over the years.

 

To my way of thinking, there are a multitude of great sounding options out there, but for Clav-style playing I like my Nord E5. I hate the tension for most of the other sounds (I think the Nords are too tightly sprung in general), but the combination of the tension and the high trigger for Clav sounds makes it pretty great for Clav playing in my opinion. There may not be as many programming options as other choices, but the damn thing feels great for slapping and sits so well in a band situation. And of course it's the waterfall key shape that helps as well.

 

You didn't mention if this was primarily for recording or live playing, and that could be a factor in your choices for sure, but you should at least try a Nord Electro. Ironically, I wish it were less springy for Hammond playing, but the Hammond sounds are also great...

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Interesting thread to me, because I've never seriously considered getting a keyboard for playing primarily clav. It's been quite a few years since I actually played one, but I have a pretty clear memory that real keys have very little resistance -- definitely less resistance than the Fatar keyboard ubiquitous in the Nord, Hammond clones, etc . . . My feeling is that's a factor worth considering if you're really going after maxing out your clavinet joy. In other words, don't focus on sound and ignore action.

 

Both the Crumar Mojo and the Vox Continental have a lighter action than Nord and Hammond (the Mojo uses Fatar but modifies it), and they both have excellent Clav emulations.

 

The VR09 action is terrible. Yesterday I finally got a chance to play a VR730. Better than the VR09, for sure, but pretty tightly sprung. At least as tight as a Nord.

 

Whatever you do, don't get a Vibanet. The envy I would feel if you do might cause me to pull the trigger on one, and I can't afford it!

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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I've gotten a lot of mileage out of the SV-1 clavi sounds, there's a ton of editability, the physical tube for amp drive, and something like 15 different variations in the 3 sound packs. The SV-2 has patches that are as good or better. I personally love the RH3 weighted action as well. In both cases, however, organ is the weak point.

 

The Crumar Seven has a great clavi engine, but again, organ is the afterthought of the keyboard.

 

Seems like you'd be better off searching for a keyboard that focuses on the hammond sound that secondarily also has good clavi emulation.

Keyboards: Nord Electro 6D 73, Korg SV-1 88, Minilogue XD, Yamaha YPG-625

Bonus: Boss RC-3 Loopstation

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There are so many ways one board's clav can be better or worse than some other, your selection may depend in part on which aspects are most important to you.

 

Do you need to emulate all 4 pickup positions?

Do you need to emulate all 15 possible EQ/filter settings?

Do you need to emulate the mute lever?

Do you need the release sounds?

 

An auto-wah effect is often mentioned, but if you want authenticity, I might get an actual pedal i.e. https://www.mu-tron.com/products/micro-tron-iv/ - I don't know off-hand whethere any of the boards' internal replications of the mutron come as close as their own is supposed to.

 

And then there's the playability. I think the closest feel might be the Fatar TP-40L, a lightweight hammer action currently used in the Kurzweil Forte and Forte 7 (but not Forte SE). In a semi-weighted design, an action that felt somewhat clav-like to me is the one in the Vox Continental, with the Fatar TP9 TP8/P probably being runner-up (used in the Kurzweil Artis 7). Other than the aforementioned Vox and the VR09, all the boards you listed use either Fatar TP100 or Fatar TP8O, neither of which have felt clav-like to me, though I haven't necessarily played them in the exact instruments you referenced. The VR09 is its own thing, but doesn't feel clav like either. If you can't find the action you prefer with the sonic characteristics you want, you could consider using the board's action to trigger any of a number of software-based clavinet emulations (VST/iOS), or the Mojo61/Crumar Seven's implementation which you can also find in the Gemini module.

 

Lastly as I have mentioned before, part of what makes a clav feel snappy to play, to me, really depends on the keys having a low release point. I know that the Korg SV1, Nord Electro 5, Nord Stage 3, and Crumar Mojo 61 have that. I assume the SV2 and Electro 6 have it as well. The Hammond SK1 and Roland VR-09 do not. Vox Continental's release is low-ish, i.e. lower than typical, though not as low as the ones I mentioned.

 

There could be a question as to whether a board that has it necessarily acts the same over MIDI (which has been a variable among the way boards handle high trigger points for organ). For the SV1 (and Vox), that's not an issue, because the low release is not a sound-specific or menu-selectable option... the board's one and only release point just happens to be lower than on most boards. As for the others, I don't know.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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If you are looking for just a controller, those old Roland/Edirol A series controllers have the closest action I've played to an actual Clavinet. And yeah... I own a Clavinet © - and for awhile I had a Roland A-37. I didn't buy it particularly for clav, but there it was - a super snappy light low travel action that reminded me so much of my Clavinet.

 

You can buy these for dirt cheap if you can find one - well under $200. But there's not many out there.

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+1 on the Hammond SK clav - lots more character than the Nord clav.

Fom an old post of mine:

 

the Hammond and Nord clavs do sound different from each other, and as I haven't owned a clav in decades, I do not consider myself a reliable source as to which sounds more faithful to the original at the various pickup positions. However, with that caveat, I give the edge to the Nord on clavs (even despite the Hammond having release noises that the Nord lacks). For one thing, the Hammond seems to be 2-layer with very obvious velocity shifts, the Nord seems generally a little more subtle in its dynamic shifts (though not always). But more than that, as I happened to have mentioned in an unrelated thread recently, I think one of the keys to getting a clav to sound authentically "snappy" is to have a low release point

I do wish Nord would update their clav sample set to include the release samples, but when I had them side by side, personally, I preferred the Nord. Just one more perspective...

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Fair warning on the SK Clav sounds: they're decent, but the one with the best "Superstition" tone (called "Super Clav" or something) has an incredibly annoying property that makes it unusable in a lot of situations â including, ironically, playing "Superstition." From about the low E down, the notes keep sustaining after you release the key â as though the Clav had a sustain pedal and you were holding it down. Why? Because somebody at Hammond was wrongly convinced (and then convinced everyone else there) that when Stevie recorded "Superstition," he had somehow modified his Clav so that the low Eb sustained like that, and that was how he recorded that part. I know this because I spoke to multiple people at Hammond HQ about it, and they were all adamant that it was true, and that it was the only way it would have been possible to play that part. They seemed to regard it as some sort of special insider "industry secret" that they were privy to and had been to first to capitalize on, and were therefore able to offer this cool "feature" that no other company did.

 

They were not moved from this mistaken belief when I pulled up the isolated Clav tracks and pointed out the unmistakable sound of that Eb sounding and then cutting off when released, just like all the other notes do. They were not moved when I played along with the tracks and demonstrated the exact part Stevie was playing, with his fingering (which I had painstakingly put together from multiple audio and video sources), on a perfectly normal Clav patch. They were not moved when I pointed out the physical process of how a Clav produces sound, and how it would make what they were describing exceptionally difficult if not literally impossible. Since the SK can import additional data, I practically pleaded with them to release a version of that patch that had the same tone, but without the unwanted sustain. They seemed to consider it for a minute, but it never happened. It was my first exposure to what I'll call the "unique quirkiness" of how decisions are made there.

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There are so many ways one board's clav can be better or worse than some other, your selection may depend in part on which aspects are most important to you.

 

Do you need to emulate all 4 pickup positions?

Do you need to emulate all 15 possible EQ/filter settings?

Do you need to emulate the mute lever?

Do you need the release sounds?

 

An auto-wah effect is often mentioned, but if you want authenticity, I might get an actual pedal i.e. https://www.mu-tron.com/products/micro-tron-iv/ - I don't know off-hand whethere any of the boards' internal replications of the mutron come as close as their own is supposed to.

 

And then there's the playability. I think the closest feel might be the Fatar TP-40L, a lightweight hammer action currently used in the Kurzweil Forte and Forte 7 (but not Forte SE). In a semi-weighted design, an action that felt somewhat clav-like to me is the one in the Vox Continental, with the Fatar TP9 probably being runner-up (used in the Kurzweil Artis 7). Other than the aforementioned Vox and the VR09, all the boards you listed use either Fatar TP100 or Fatar TP8O, neither of which have felt clav-like to me, though I haven't necessarily played them in the exact instruments you referenced. The VR09 is its own thing, but doesn't feel clav like either. If you can't find the action you prefer with the sonic characteristics you want, you could consider using the board's action to trigger any of a number of software-based clavinet emulations (VST/iOS), or the Mojo61/Crumar Seven's implementation which you can also find in the Gemini module.

 

Lastly as I have mentioned before, part of what makes a clav feel snappy to play, to me, really depends on the keys having a low release point. I know that the Korg SV1, Nord Electro 5, Nord Stage 3, and Crumar Mojo 61 have that. I assume the SV2 and Electro 6 have it as well. The Hammond SK1 and Roland VR-09 do not. Vox Continental's release is low-ish, i.e. lower than typical, though not as low as the ones I mentioned.

 

There could be a question as to whether a board that has it necessarily acts the same over MIDI (which has been a variable among the way boards handle high trigger points for organ). For the SV1 (and Vox), that's not an issue, because the low release is not a sound-specific or menu-selectable option... the board's one and only release point just happens to be lower than on most boards. As for the others, I don't know.

 

Scott, doesn't the Artis7 have the TP-8O?

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Scott, doesn't the Artis7 have the TP-8O?
No, TP9/P TP8/P. AFAIK, Kurzweil has never used the 8O (a waterfall action).

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I do wish Nord would update their clav sample set to include the release samples, but when I had them side by side, personally, I preferred the Nord. Just one more perspective...

 

I haven't played the SK, but I really liked the Nord Clav & action in my Stage2 Compact, and the Mojo61 also. Nord has the edge for both live tweakability & key note range.

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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Thank you so very much to everyone for the fantastically helpful feedback. I am still processing all of your thoughts, advice, and questions in order to respond intelligently - but wanted to state that this has already been so helpful and beneficial to me.
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I used to have a Nord Electro 2, I LOVED the clav sounds on that thing. I upgraded to a Nord Stage 3 in 2018 and sold the NE2, and although you can do more to alter the tone of the clav sounds on the NS3, it just doesn't bite the same way. I've heard the same sentiment from others who upgraded from their Nord Electro 2.
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I really liked the Nord Clav & action in my Stage2 Compact, and the Mojo61 also. Nord has the edge for both live tweakability & key note range.

Good point about range. A 61-note C-to-C keyboard won't give you the full 60 note F-E range of a clavinet. So you probably want to be looking at at least a 73.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Fair warning on the SK Clav sounds: they're decent, but the one with the best "Superstition" tone (called "Super Clav" or something) has an incredibly annoying property that makes it unusable in a lot of situations â including, ironically, playing "Superstition." From about the low E down, the notes keep sustaining after you release the key â as though the Clav had a sustain pedal and you were holding it down. Why? Because somebody at Hammond was wrongly convinced (and then convinced everyone else there) that when Stevie recorded "Superstition," he had somehow modified his Clav so that the low Eb sustained like that, and that was how he recorded that part. I know this because I spoke to multiple people at Hammond HQ about it, and they were all adamant that it was true, and that it was the only way it would have been possible to play that part. They seemed to regard it as some sort of special insider "industry secret" that they were privy to and had been to first to capitalize on, and were therefore able to offer this cool "feature" that no other company did.

 

They were not moved from this mistaken belief when I pulled up the isolated Clav tracks and pointed out the unmistakable sound of that Eb sounding and then cutting off when released, just like all the other notes do. They were not moved when I played along with the tracks and demonstrated the exact part Stevie was playing, with his fingering (which I had painstakingly put together from multiple audio and video sources), on a perfectly normal Clav patch. They were not moved when I pointed out the physical process of how a Clav produces sound, and how it would make what they were describing exceptionally difficult if not literally impossible. Since the SK can import additional data, I practically pleaded with them to release a version of that patch that had the same tone, but without the unwanted sustain. They seemed to consider it for a minute, but it never happened. It was my first exposure to what I'll call the "unique quirkiness" of how decisions are made there.

 

Look, Josh, if you don't know anything about this topic, just say so.

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Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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This wouldn't win for an authentic action (though I've not played a real clavinet), but I really like the Yamaha Motif XF clavinets (I think they're in the Montage and MODX too). I prefer them over Korg and Roland clavinets in general, and all the pickup positions are available. These were new waveforms and sounds added with the XF that aren't in the XS and earlier. The VCM effects are very useful too as they aren't too artificial sounding and they have a lot of the traditional clavinet effects (the phaser is still my favorite of any board). Just a thought.

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

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I like my Nord Electro 5D, and the waterfall action is fun to play clavinet from, but it's frustrating that there are no muted settings. I haven't played a ROMpler that feels like the real thing. Playing Scarbee Clav or even the built-in Logic Vintage Clav from the NE5D is the closest I've gotten so far.

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Nord Electro 5D, Novation Launchkey 61, Logic Pro X, Mainstage 3, lots of plugins, fingers, pencil, paper.

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