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Why the SV-1 Rhodes still kicks other Rhodes samples' asses


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Okay, obviously that"s a subjective call and a matter of personal preference, blah blah blah. But after spending a good amount of time now with the SV-2, I"ve come to two conclusions: not only is it my favorite board for EPs, but of the various Rhodes samples in it, the 'legacy' sample (the original one that the SV-1 booted up to) is still my preferred one by a long shot. So I decided to do some serious side-by-side comparisons to see if I could pinpoint exactly why I found that particular sample set so much more satisfying to play than all the pretty-good-to-excellent Rhodes sample sets I have on hand. I set up ALL the gear and compared it to not just the other SV-2 patches, but also the Rhodes representations in:

 

Korg Grandstage

Kurzweil Forte (factory presets, David Weiser tweaks, and Purgatory Creek samples)

Yamaha CP10

Yamaha Reface CP (whose Rhodes is surprisingly good for such an inexpensive board)

Korg Module Pro (original and Scarbee samples)

Neo-Soul Keys Studio

 

(Hey, remember back when I could have made a joke at this point about how all this research makes me a Rhodes scholar and it wouldn"t have gotten ugly? Ahh, good timesâ¦)

 

Anyway, with everything set up side-by-side, it didn"t take long for me to pinpoint the one objective thing that SV-1 sample has that none of the others do: a truly aggressive, barky, nasty fff layer.

 

That"s all it comes down to: when you really smack it, it sounds like you"re really smacking it. Without exception, the others only sound like you"re hitting them kinda hard. And for me, having that ability seems to be the difference between playing something that feels like a real instrument and something that feels like a digital imitation. The closest runners up in that regard were one of the Scarbee samples in Module, one of Neo-Soul samples, and believe it or not, one of the Reface samples. But still, they weren"t in the same league.

 

The other thing the SV has in its favor is that it really nails the tone of the Small Stone phaser. When I kick that thing on, I don"t just feel like I"m playing some killer Richard Tee; I feel like I bloody well AM Richard Tee, which most times is really all I want out of a Rhodes sound. A few of the other boards nail it just about as well, but the combination of that and the dynamic response takes me exactly where I want to be.

 

For any kind of modern-day Rhodes samples, you"d think that having a realistic dynamic response even at the extremes would be a given; so much so, in fact, that I have to consider the possibility that the problem is me. While I"ve spent a fair amount of time on various Rhodes onstage and in the studio, I"ve never owned one, so it could be that my perception of how one 'should' respond is inaccurate or at least atypical. Still, while it obviously remains a subjective matter, I"m happy to have at least pinpointed what it is that makes that sample set my favorite by such a wide margin. So if you"re looking for a Rhodes sound that gets really nasty when you really dig into it, and you haven"t tried the SV, it might be worth checking out.

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Ah ah Josh, this will not help me to get rid of my SV1 :crazy: I must also say that the SV1 EP is still by far my favorite, out of all the other ones I could try on hardware or software. I'm as well completely mad for the SV1's Wurli tone. My conclusion out of all my latest reflexions on the reason for this situation, is that I'm so much used to the SV1's tones after 10 years of intensive usage, that I constantly try to find the same tone in another board or in a software emulation, which is of course not possible. The 2 other acceptable EP tones in my ears are the Vox Conti's EP (though I find it has too much attack) and the Korg Module's Scarbee emulation. I always rejected the Neo Soul Keys Studio's EPs, especially because the mid and high range tones sound strange to me (most likely because I'd like to hear SV1 tones especially in this register). At this point, I still don't know if this is a bless or a curse, but it seems I can't get out of my SV1 madness. I believe the same is also happening to me for the acoustic piano tones. This is why I believe the only option I have now is to buy the SV2, to still have the SV1 EP and wurli tones on board, and get better APs. But I'm also happy to see that I'm not the only one suffering from an SV1 obsession :laugh:
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That's good to know ;-) It's just a pity that the Mojo 61... well, just has 61 keys :crazy: As far as I'm concerned of course... I could live with 61 keys for playing organ, but not for playing AP or EP. I personally need a minimum of 73 keys for this purpose. But it's just a personal opinion of course :cool:

I wanted to add to my previous post that to me, the Amp sim plays a big role to get the sound I like. When I listen the dry EP, it sounds very dark and strange. I tried to EQ it to come close the brightness of the amped sound, but I could never succeed :confused: So I always use the EP and Wurli through the amp sim.

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As I mentioned to someone else, IMO, the Rhodes sound will always be fascinating among players because regardless whether it is a real Rhodes or facsimile, there's no one flavor of it that fits all.

 

I believe the type of music one plays and/or the sound used as a point of reference influences preference in the sound and playability of it.

 

The stock SV-1 Rhodes sound was "it" for me the first time I laid hands on the KB. I bought my SV-1 almost 5 years ago now. I still have a total blast every time I sit down and play it.

 

Lately, I've been running my SV-1 through a filter. Adds another flavor to the sounds. H8ll, I don't even need a synth to get the pad sounds I dig.:laugh::cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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SV-1 is great. I don"t care for the RH-3 in the Kronos put it works great in the SV1-88

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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I own Mojo 61 and a Seven. I had an SV1 in my shop this week for repair ( broken keys ) and after I got it fixed up I tried it again. I had considered one before buying the Seven. All I can say is for me, the Seven is in a completely different league and blows the SV1 away for both Rhodes and Wurly. Admittedly, the Seven is focused on EPs and doesn't offer a lot of other options, but for what it does I haven't found anything except an actual Rhodes suitcase that touches it. As Mitch would say, the touch to sound connection is superb in the Seven. As always, to each his (or hers ) own.
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The actions of the Seven and the SV1/2 are different enough that it's likely to be the biggest factor to anyone deciding between them, based on personal preference. The EPs on both are really really good, so while you might pick one over the other, I think anyone looking for an EP emulation should be happy with either.

 

I owned a Seven and now have an SV2. For me the SV action is better, and the SV2 is a pretty clear winner for APs. I wish more keyboards were flatty's like the Seven.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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No question on the APs. I love the form factor of the Seven and I guess you're right about the actions. As I said, it works for me. I just thought it ought to be part of the conversation. Unlike the SV, I wouldn't use the Seven as a one board gig without something on top ( the YC61? ) to cover the other stuff. My gigging stable includes Nord Stage EX76, Nord Stage 2 EX 76, YC61, Mojo61, Seven, ipad with focusrite dock, V3 piano module. My B3/122 reside in a local recording studio. Spoiled for choice and no gigs......
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after spending a good amount of time now with the SV-2, I"ve come to two conclusions: not only is it my favorite board for EPs, but of the various Rhodes samples in it, the 'legacy' sample (the original one that the SV-1 booted up to) is still my preferred one by a long shot.

I came to the same conclusion. I also preferred the my two SV1 Wurlis (one of the original set, one from one of the optional soundpaks) to the new Wurlis that come in the SV2. Though when recording a while back, I ended up using a Rhodes from Korg Module (I don't remember whether it was Scarbee or not), only because I was able to get a less noisy signal out of the iPad. (I didn't try the SV1's XLR outs, though.)

 

It's just a pity that the Mojo 61... well, just has 61 keys

One could put the Gemini module on your larger action of choice.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Sweet, now can you tell me why the SV 1/2 Wurly also plays so much better than anything else? Inquiring minds etc.

 

It's funny you should ask, because I feel the same way, and did some comparisons with that too. Unlike with the Rhodes, there was no specific, objective difference that I could point to. It seems to be just a matter of tone. It has this warm, fuzzy quality that seems to elude the others. At one point I got a Korg Vox Conti specifically because I was hoping it would have the same quality with its tube, but no dice. The closest thing to it in my collection is the 140 sample in the Purgatory Creek collection. Its sound and feel are really close to the SV1's, and it's also a joy to play. In fact before the SV2 came out, it was the main reason I held onto my Forte, which I basically used for nothing else. But much like the SV Rhodes makes me feel like I am Richard Tee, its Wurli makes me feel like I am Donny Hathaway, which is all I really want out of a Wurli sound.

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APs on the SV1 are great because they are compressed and punchy. They work way better in a band mix than realistic authenticity. If you want to be Oscar Peterson maybe there are better options but if you want to be Billy Payne then the SV kicks ass. I assumed the EPS inherit their reactive bark from that same audio output process. The sample may only be part of formula.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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APs on the SV1 are great because they are compressed and punchy. They work way better in a band mix than realistic authenticity. If you want to be Oscar Peterson maybe there are better options but if you want to be Billy Payne then the SV kicks ass. I assumed the EPS inherit their reactive bark from that same audio output process. The sample may only be part of formula.

 

Not impressed by the APs on the SV1. #1 reason for passing on it, for me. I find them dull, undynamic and not well matched to the behavior of the action. Just offering different perspective. I get that in the mix with the band they can work fine. The EPs however. Ya, it"s a very cool instrument for that and feels good to play. Again, imho. I"ve been itching to play the SV2 because they appear to have addressed the short comings of the AP sounds - at least I am seeing and hearing that in video. Still have to sit at it to know - as always for everyone.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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In one of the bands I'm in I replaced the keyboard player who moved to acoustic guitar. He occasionally brings his SV-1 to gigs especially if I have another conflicting gig that causes me to miss part of the 1st set. In these cases he sets up the SV-1 to get through the 1st set and often I'll just use the SV-1 rather than setup my own keys. He sometimes brings it to practice and I also will use it at practice. To my ears the sounds are dated, including the EP's. I get better EP's out of my PC3 than out of the SV-1. The acoustic piano is different than the PC3. The PC3 uses Steinway samples, sounds like the SV-1 uses something different. I can't say which is better because they are different, much like a Marshall amp is different than a Fender amp. Which one of those is better? Depends on the sound you are going after.

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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Based on video demos, I have to say the Crumar Seven is the best Rhodes sound I've heard. The tonal variation layers from the touch sensitivity is just incredible, wailing on the key produces that authentic almost out-of-tune bark that I've only heard from actual Rhodes videos. With that said, the SV-1 is a wonderful Rhodes reproduction with a solid velocity effect. I think I have 5 different Rhodes variations in my custom sound pack because every flavor is so tasty.

 

There's a darker tone "rockin EP" rhodes sound in SP2 that sounds totally badass with a lot of amp drive. It's a great solo tone to jump out in a mix.

 

As for wurly sounds, I really only fell in love with the first factory wurly sound, but I have three patches that I play around with. I think plenty of other keyboards do it better. There's a lot to like in the SV-1, I love the clavi sounds and there's a bunch of cool stuff in the "other" category including a really fat and warm string ensemble and a fantastic mellotron in SP1.

 

APs on the SV1 are great because they are compressed and punchy. They work way better in a band mix than realistic authenticity. If you want to be Oscar Peterson maybe there are better options but if you want to be Billy Payne then the SV kicks ass.

 

This is a really good point. The SV-1 acoustic piano does cut through a band mix, I used it for 5 years in a loud cover band with a bunch of piano songs.

Keyboards: Nord Electro 6D 73, Korg SV-1 88, Minilogue XD, Yamaha YPG-625

Bonus: Boss RC-3 Loopstation

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" .. The SV-1 acoustic piano does cut through a band mix, I used it for 5 years in a loud cover band with a bunch of piano songs...

I scratch my head whenever I read this quote (not picking on your CP). For some reason there is a general perception that if the tone is brighter it 'cuts' better. I've been playing out professionally for 40 years in bars, outdoors, concert arenas, and mostly every type of venue and I've never had issues cutting through the mix other than being drowned out by two guitar players with 100 watt tube amps. My PC3 is Steinway based so it is a 'warmer' tone; with the right amplification, i.e. matching the amplification of the guitars, I have never had an issue with any of my instrument sounds cutting through the mix and having used the SV-1 and my PC3 neither one cuts through the mix better than the other. My 2.65 Canadian, 1.7 Euro, 2.8 Australian or just plain old two cents for US.

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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I scratch my head whenever I read this quote (not picking on your CP). For some reason there is a general perception that if the tone is brighter it 'cuts' better. I've never had issues cutting through the mix other than being drowned out by two guitar players with 100 watt tube amps. My PC3 is steinway based so it is a 'warmer' tone; with the right amplification, i.e. matching the amplification of the guitars, I have never had an issue with any of my instrument sounds cutting through the mix.

I don't think it has to do with being "brighter" per se (or at least, that's not the only way to get there). The thing being said here of the SV1 being a non state-of-the-art piano sound that can nonethelesless often be admired for cutting through and working well in a live band context is precisely what so many have said about your Kurzweil (PC3) triple strike piano as well.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I don't think it has to do with being "brighter" per se (or at least, that's not the only way to get there). The thing being said here of the SV1 being a non state-of-the-art piano sound that can nonethelesless often be admired for cutting through and working well in a live band context is precisely what so many have said about your Kurzweil (PC3) triple strike piano as well.

I've played out with a multitude of instrument brands and have never had issues cutting through the mix unless my amplification was underpowered (or not loud enough in the FOH).

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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Oh, I think I see, your point is that *any* piano sound should be able to work in a band context, so it's no "special quality" of an SV1 (or triple strike) piano, it's just one of the qualities that they still have despite their possible shortcomings in other areas. Interesting question for people here to chime in on... Can you give examples of piano sounds you found that sound very nice on their own, but just don't work well in band contexts?

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I don't own an SV-1 but do own a Forte with the Purgatory Creek samples and have from time to time played other boards. I owned a real Wurly 140 for many years and I feel most EP manufacturers fall short on capturing the bark/boing/bonk of a really smacked Wurly attack. Perhaps that's because they fear breaking the reeds of a lovingly set up Wurly specimen when they go for the FF samples. But, in my estimation it would be worth the sacrifice.
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Oh, I think I see, your point is that *any* piano sound should be able to work in a band context, so it's no "special quality" of an SV1 (or triple strike) piano, it's just one of the qualities that they still have despite their possible shortcomings in other areas. Interesting question for people here to chime in on... Can you give examples of piano sounds you found that sound very nice on their own, but just don't work well in band contexts?

 

There are many stock piano sounds that are sculpted and molded to sound great solo and don"t work well in the mix. But that is what the mixing engineer is for - unless you haven"t one - then you have to address this yourself. If playing with band and not in the PA, relying on just your own amplification - the typical piano sound one would use sounds like shit solo, but cuts out a niche for itself in the band depending what the other instruments are. But Scott already knows this so you are possibly being facetious?

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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I owned a real Wurly 140 for many years and I feel most EP manufacturers fall short on capturing the bark/boing/bonk of a really smacked Wurly attack. Perhaps that's because they fear breaking the reeds of a lovingly set up Wurly specimen when they go for the FF samples. But, in my estimation it would be worth the sacrifice.

 

I too once had a 140B... and just had this vision of a modern EP/VI Wurlitzer with an optional "cracked reed" or "solder shorting the pickup bar" setting. :cry:

 

I find the 'cut through the mix' discussion interesting. In my experience it's always about midrange settings. AP sounds on some brands are more realistic inherently, but I don't think I'd buy any instrument without some control over mids.

 

And as we're talking about Korgs here, I'll throw in another plug for GrandStage â the flagship hybrid piano isn't found on the SV2 â and the Vintage EPs on both are EP-1. I know one is designed in Italy, the other in Japan, but I assume the samples are from the same source (correct me if I'm wrong). GS downsides are the limited editing functions â no SV2 software editor, tube or audio ins (no biggie). But there are some pretty good variations within each piano model. Big pluses: I have totally connected with the action, you can turn off the lighted logo, and here come ol' flat-top.

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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I know one is designed in Italy, the other in Japan, but I assume the samples are from the same source (correct me if I'm wrong).

SV1/SV2 EPs are entirely sample-based. Grandstage's Kronos EP1 engine employs modeling. So they are not the same sounds. I like both, but I could not coax anything really close to the SV1 Rhodes out of the Kronos.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I know one is designed in Italy, the other in Japan, but I assume the samples are from the same source (correct me if I'm wrong).

SV1/SV2 EPs are entirely sample-based. Grandstage's Kronos EP1 engine employs modeling. So they are not the same sounds. I like both, but I could not coax anything really close to the SV1 Rhodes out of the Kronos.

 

I knew something like that was coming :laugh: Why then do the specs for both GS & SV2 say EP-1?

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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SV2 specs say the sound engine is EDS-X https://www.korg.com/us/products/synthesizers/sv_2/specifications.php

 

But it does have a sound category "EP1 (Vintage)", which is just bank 1 of the electric piano sounds, not a separate sound generating engine. Just as the other categories are not sound engines either, i.e. "EP2 (Various)", "Piano 1 (Acoustic)" etc. They are just groups of programs.

 

Grandstage lists "EP-1" as a method of synthesis. https://www.korg.com/us/products/synthesizers/grandstage/specifications.php

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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SV2 specs say the sound engine is EDS-X https://www.korg.com/us/products/synthesizers/sv_2/specifications.php

 

But it does have a sound category "EP1 (Vintage)", which is just bank 1 of the electric piano sounds, not a separate sound generating engine. Just as the other categories are not sound engines either, i.e. "EP2 (Various)", "Piano 1 (Acoustic)" etc. They are just groups of programs.

 

Grandstage lists "EP-1" as a method of synthesis. https://www.korg.com/us/products/synthesizers/grandstage/specifications.php

 

Thank you! Confusing â but yes, I see it now. Back to our original programming.

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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