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Budget Performance Level Keyboard/Synth


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I was in a performing jamband this past year doing Grateful Dead and other covers. That band didn't work out, but hope do that again and/or a jazz band. My live rig consisted of a) Casio Privia PX-300, and b) Yamaha NP-30, and that was adequate for piano and EP sounds. However, these digital pianos did not cut it for organ or synth parts. Have tried to use controller/laptop for this in the past (as previously posted), and, as forewarned, that ended up being too complicated for me for the live situation.

 

I have been shopping around for a 2nd keyboard to use as an organ/synth and which I can use to expand the Privia piano/EP sounds. Looking for something less than $1,000. Have tried the Yamaha mx series and Juno DS series, and they are adequate, but not ideal. I recently came across the Casio XW-P1 performance synth and plan to try that - that seems great on paper. Any recommendations on that synth? Other ideas?

 

Here's a partial list of what I am looking for:

Required features:

A. Keys

-61 or 76

-touch sensitive but not weighted, ideally full size (my issue with Juno DS is the key action)

B. Wheelbars or bender (ideally bender)

C. Midi

-I want to be able to use the Privia PX-300 as a controller with the synth. Therefore need standard midi in/out rather than USB.

D. Sounds/Effects

-excellent performance level piano, organ, synth sounds. Ideally 500 plus sounds

-A lot of effects so I can alter sounds to match what is needed.

E. Construction/Weight

- Solid (this is my issue with the mx series, along with the key size and general feel)

-15 lbs or less

F. Other

-Splits

 

Preferred features: drawbars for organ, battery powered, internal speakers, can save altered sounds

 

Thank you for feedback.

Casio Privia PX-300,  Roland Juno DS-61, Yamaha NP-30, Sampletank 4, Korg Module and Gadget (IPad Air), Roland Juno 106, Mackie Pro FX-6

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Less than $1000 and a Drawbar organ and good construction and 15lbs or less. I don"t know. What does a used Nord Electro 2 go for?

 

Does Casio still do that XW-P1?

 

PS - Oh That Roland thing. VR-09. I don"t care for the construction but you said less than $1000. You might like it. I use it"s cousin the FA-06. I don"t like it"s construction either but it"s sounds good for the money.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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If you can swing a Sweetwater card and if you can really still get this. I"d do this. You have 3 years to pay the balance. This is a Kurzweil flagship board. Or hunt for something like this on the used market.

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PC3K6--kurzweil-pc3k6-61-key-synthesizer-workstation

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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CEB, Electro has no synth functions or pitch bend. XW-P1 appears to be discontinued, but used is an option there. Kurzweils are great, but don't show up anywhere near 15 lbs.

 

JK, it is rare that a board has speakers AND is battery powered, because speakers eat up power so quickly. There are some, though. Probably none that meet your other criteria.

 

XW-P1 is a strong option, but also has its shortcomings. Action varies, I've played some that felt very nice and smooth, others that were terribly clacky. Synth sounds, MIDI control, splits/layers, are all pretty strong. Organ sounds are meh, but you do have drawbar control, and could put the organ through a Ventilator pedal to substantially improve it and still be within your budget. Or, there's a nice surface that could hold an iPad, and you can use the keyboard's sliders to control a better organ sound from there. Piano sounds are not so great, I doubt it's an upgrade from your PX-300. Though again, if you want to go that way, you could get other piano sounds from an iPad as well.

 

The current Casio to look at would be the MZ-X500, sold as an arranger but you can ignore the arranger features. It is probably equal to or better than the XW-P1 in all ways except in being used as a MIDI controller and maybe in its solo synth capabilities (the MZX-500 equivalent is its Bass Synth section which, despite the name, is in no way limited to bass sounds). Both have hexlayer and tonewheel organ engines, and I'm guessing that the newer MZ's versions are as good or better. I believe the sampled acoustic instrument sounds are better on the MZ. It has a much nicer, color touchscreen interface. You lose battery operation, but you gain the speakers (better speakers than on most models in the price range). It just begins to push past you price and weight limits, though.

 

Roland VR09 has the same action as the Juno DS that you don't like.

 

Numa Compact 2X could be a possibility, adding aftertouch which is nice for synth work. The Casios are both more flexible overall, though, and have a wider sound pallette (though the Numa has more MIDI controller functions than the MZ, and probably has better piano sound).

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Thanks a lot for the feedback. Some type of Nord will be the ultimate goal in a couple years to replace the Privia. But, right now I am looking for an organ/synth with unweighted keys. I am checking with a local Casio dealer to see if I can try a XW-P1. I have not been able to try the VR09 yet.

 

With midi, I was hoping to use the synth to expand the sounds of the Privia - the Privia would serve as the controller. I have an iPad Air, but have not tried that yet with Midi.

Casio Privia PX-300,  Roland Juno DS-61, Yamaha NP-30, Sampletank 4, Korg Module and Gadget (IPad Air), Roland Juno 106, Mackie Pro FX-6

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The Casio XW-P1 has been discontinued with no replacement announced yet. The major dealers are showing it as unavailable but there could be a new unsold one somewhere if you check around.
C3/122, M102A, Vox V301H, Farfisa Compact, Gibson G101, GEM P, RMI 300A, Piano Bass, Pianet , Prophet 5 rev. 2, Pro-One, Matrix 12, OB8, Korg MS20, Jupiter 6, Juno 60, PX-5S, Nord Stage 3 Compact
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I have a VR-09 and I"m exceedingly happy with it. Especially with Frankies CTRLR panel which allows you to have 5 or 6 layers of nonsense drawing from a huge number of hidden sounds. It"s in the VR-09 thread on this forum. There are a bunch of boards that have nicer action (Doesn"t bother me, but then my other board is a Poly800) and better sounds (again, Poly800) but I haven"t seen anything that beats it"s features on price. Oh and don"t forget the VR-09 hides two Roland Gaia"s inside it for your synth patch twiddling needs. And a cheapo looper. And D-Beam for triggering noises when you reach over to borrow a pencil from someone.
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That's quite a list of requirements. I love the combination of "budget" and

excellent performance level piano, organ, synth sounds
We're busy quibbling on here over the best AP and tonewheel/rotary-speaker tones at 2 or 3 times your budget!

 

Seriously, VR09 is an obvious choice if you can live with the action. I personally liked the sounds of the Casio MZX500/300 if you go secondhand. Kurzweil SP6-7 if you can stretch to 19lb for 76 keys, but no drawbars.

 

Cheers, Mike.

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Seriously, VR09 is an obvious choice if you can live with the action. I personally liked the sounds of the Casio MZX500/300...

Cheers, Mike.

 

Since 2012 I've had use of both the Roland VR-09 and Casio XW-P1 on a couple different church gigs. The VR09 was a lot of fun to program and play, though the action wasn't the greatest. I liked the action on the XW-P1 better, but the drawbar organ section had some limitations; however I was very impressed by the Hex Synth section. Though being roughly familiar with the CasioMZ-X500, I watched a comprehensive demo recently and came away very impressed. Though the VR-09 might seem to tick almost all of the boxes here, I'd give the MZ-X500 thorough consideration.

'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo.

 

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I like the MZ-X500 a lot too. Calling up sounds in live performance or doing on-the-fly splits and layers is much better on the Casio than on the VR09, and it has other advanages like on-board editing, sequencer, speakers... though VR has some advantages of its own and is lighter and cheaper (and some of its limitations can be overcome with the freeware CTRLR editor). They're included in the comparison chart I did at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fr9cObRaep37A9Y1PZtRkVWxKKDsXUGPk9ubfhYgoSk/edit?usp=sharing

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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AS, thanks a lot for sharing that chart. I did end up find a dealer with the XW-P1 but he raised the price on me and won't let me try the board as it is the only one left! It is clear from what I am reading that it is worth paying the $1,000 for the Roland VR-09 or Casio MZ-X500. So I will probably do that.

Casio Privia PX-300,  Roland Juno DS-61, Yamaha NP-30, Sampletank 4, Korg Module and Gadget (IPad Air), Roland Juno 106, Mackie Pro FX-6

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AS, thanks a lot for sharing that chart. I did end up find a dealer with the XW-P1 but he raised the price on me and won't let me try the board as it is the only one left! It is clear from what I am reading that it is worth paying the $1,000 for the Roland VR-09 or Casio MZ-X500. So I will probably do that.

...

-touch sensitive but not weighted, ideally full size (my issue with Juno DS is the key action)

 

Ah, I need to warn you - as AnotherScott hinted at, the VR-09 has the identical action to the Juno DS61 and FA06. If you hated those, you will hate the VR09. My vote is actually for you to get a Korg Krome EX - it has everything you want except for the drawbar organ. You can assign the knobs to work as as drawbars in Combi mode however, with some setup. The keys are an improvement over the DS61/FA06/VR09 action, but they're not perfect as they get harder to play the further back on the keys you go. But they are full size unlike the Roland action, which has both flaws and is close to unplayable for me.

 

Actually, just get the Roland Juno DS76 - it has a better action than the DS61! $999 https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/JunoDS76--roland-juno-ds76-synthesizer Still no drawbars but IMO it's a better keyboard sound-wise than the Krome (unless you want a sequencer). It is a little weaker on effects when layering multiple sounds with their own effects. You DO get four faders plus four knobs. I'm not sure if those can be configured for anything or not.

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

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Some dealers are also selling old-stock Yamaha MOXF6 keyboards for around your budget plus/minus $200. Better keys than the MX61.

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

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I use a Casio PX-5s for my lower board (piano action, piano, EP, synth, horns, strings) and a Nord Electro 6D/73 up top, but a Nord Electro 2 or 3/61 would do great for Organ, Clav, EP sounds.

 

Not a fan of the Casio for organ sounds. the EP's are passable, and good enough if I'm using the Nord as a Clonewheel.

Muzikteechur is Lonnie, in Kittery, Maine.

 

HS music teacher: Concert Band, Marching Band, Jazz Band, Chorus, Music Theory, AP Music Theory, History of Rock, Musical Theatre, Piano, Guitar, Drama.

 

 

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Used Alesis QS6 or QS7...

 

I can"t believe I"m actually saying this because I bitched about mine all through college and eventually went software. But the truth is, for what you"re looking for it"s a damned good board. It has quite good Organs and EPianos, decent and gig-able piano, and some good (sampled) synth sounds. Its a pure rompler, so its synth engine isn"t super deep, making it easy for beginners. Down side is it doesn"t have a true analog engine, but gets around it with a lot of layered samples.

 

It has quite a solid Fatar bed that I think you"d prefer over the Rolands. Not sure how much it weigh. I had a QS8 which is a BEAST, I"ve always figured the unweighted ones would be about 1/2 the weight but I don"t know.

 

PS: where did the OP mention about 'Drawbars'? I"m not seeing that as a criteria. I saw 'wheel bars', but I figured they meant pitch and mod wheels.

Puck Funk! :)

 

Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat?

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Some dealers are also selling old-stock Yamaha MOXF6 keyboards for around your budget plus/minus $200. Better keys than the MX61.

 

I think that this is an excellent suggestion if you can still find one somewhere in dealer stock. Despite being an older board, sonically it is top notch and has a wide array of very usable sounds as long as you don't need the dedicated organ section with drawbar controls. No on-board speakers either, but still fairly light weight as well.

----------------------------------------------------------

 

Gig: Yamaha MODX7, NumaX 73 Piano  Studio: Kawai ES-920; Hammond SK Pro 73; Yamaha Motif ES7 w/DX,VL,VH; Yamaha YC 73; Kawai MP-6; Numa Compact 2x

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My vote is actually for you to get a Korg Krome EX - it has everything you want except for the drawbar organ. You can assign the knobs to work as as drawbars in Combi mode however, with some setup.

This is another example of how to cleverly coax drawbar-organ-like functionality out of keyboards that don't have organ engines, recently discussed in other threads in the context of the Yamaha MODX and the Roland Fantom. Here's a video of the Krome approach:

[video:youtube]

But all of these approaches do suffer some inherent limitations... a 9-drawbar sound will use 9 (or possibly more) instances of polyphony for every keypress. There will likely be phasing issues due to starting multiple instances of the same sine waves at different points in time. The sliders (on screen, in this case) will work in reverse direction. In the case of the Krome, there are 4 knobs, but unlike the 4 sliders on the MODX, I'm not sure you can quickly alter which four "drawbars" they control. But... it still may be sufficient for some people.

 

Actually, just get the Roland Juno DS76...Still no drawbars but IMO it's a better keyboard sound-wise than the Krome (unless you want a sequencer). It is a little weaker on effects when layering multiple sounds with their own effects. You DO get four faders plus four knobs. I'm not sure if those can be configured for anything or not.
I'm not sure whether the method discussed above will work on the DS. Maybe. IIRC, the 4 knobs are assignable, the 4 sliders have fixed functions (except when using it in its DAW mode).

 

Some dealers are also selling old-stock Yamaha MOXF6 keyboards for around your budget plus/minus $200. Better keys than the MX61.

I thought the keys were the same, but maybe not. Again, I don't know how well you can emulate a drawbar organ... the MODX approach does not really exist on the MOXF6... one of the better organ implentations, Organimation, maxes out at 8 drawbar control. https://ksounds.com/product/organimation-tonewheel-organ-sounds-yamaha-moxf/

 

I use a Casio PX-5s for my lower board...and a Nord Electro 6D/73 up top...Not a fan of the Casio for organ sounds. the EP's are passable, and good enough if I'm using the Nord as a Clonewheel.

MZ-X500, while not a first class clonewheel by any means, is far better than the PX5S, you can get an idea from this video...

[video:youtube]

 

The MZ-X500 does let you pan its sounds, so you should be able to, for example, put a Lester K or Vent rotary simulator on the organ while simultaneously playing any split/layered sounds without putting them through the rotary effect (albeit in mono)... something you can't do on the VR09.

 

As for EPs, personally, I find the PX-5S far more than passable, I actually like them more than Nord's. Have you tried any of the downloadable ones? You can find them at https://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/files/category/26-electric-pianos-and-clavs/

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Some dealers are also selling old-stock Yamaha MOXF6 keyboards for around your budget plus/minus $200. Better keys than the MX61.

I thought the keys were the same, but maybe not.

 

They are definitely not. The MX keys are the cheapest feeling keys I've played. They are absurdly light, and loose, flimsy plastic things. While I actually went with a Krome because I liked the keys a little better, the MOXF6 keys are a definite improvement over the MX, which is a toy. Otherwise the MX49/61 are nice compact boards.

'

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

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MZ-X500, while not a first class clonewheel by any means, is far better than the PX5S, you can get an idea from this video... The MZ-X500 does let you pan its sounds, so you should be able to, for example, put a Lester K or Vent rotary simulator on the organ while simultaneously playing any split/layered sounds without putting them through the rotary effect (albeit in mono)... something you can't do on the VR09.

I came across the same video. I also found a video of the MZX500 "in performance" and the organ sounded pretty credible in a band context.

 

Cheers, Mike

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PS: where did the OP mention about 'Drawbars'?

Toward the bottom of the op: "Preferred features: drawbars for organ..."

 

A. Keys

-61 or 76

...

E. Construction/Weight

- Solid (this is my issue with the mx series, along with the key size and general feel)

-15 lbs or less

When you're talking about boards of 61+ keys, solid and lightweight are largely opposing goals.

 

While Mighty Motif Max is right about the MOXF being a better board than the MX, it still does have the famous Yamaha "slightly scaled down" keys.

 

You mentioned ruling out the Juno DS bercause of its action... You didn't mention it, but I'm guessing you tried the 61? Because as Max said, the 76 action is different, so that could be worth further consideration.

 

OTOH, you also mentioned that your focus was organ/synth, and neither the Roland Juno DS nor the Yamaha MX/MOXF would be among my top choices specifically for organ and synth... though they may well be good enough. Those are ares where I would tend to go for the XW-P1, with the caveat that while the XW-P1 does provide a basic drawbar controllable organ, its overdrive is poor, so depending on the organ sounds you're going for, that might make adding a pedal for better rotary sim more essential.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I looked into IPad software and that brought me to IKmultimedia, who I knew had a look of IPad products. I had used another of their products in the past, Sampletank 2.5, with my PC. The version I had used did not work for me for performance, but I decided to try the more recent Sampletank PC versions and, combined with my audio interface and Alesis controller, that may be adequate as the budget keyboard I am looking for now.

 

I am currently trying the free versions 3 and 4. They have decent response and feel. I actually like 3 - the earlier version-better. It is pretty easy to assign effects to the controls, and to edit sounds. Good set of sounds. The software seems to take a lot of processing and I have concerns about that. I will post further thoughts in the future. Opinions on Sampletank 3 or 4?

Casio Privia PX-300,  Roland Juno DS-61, Yamaha NP-30, Sampletank 4, Korg Module and Gadget (IPad Air), Roland Juno 106, Mackie Pro FX-6

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Can't help on 3 or 4. I do have ST 2, along with a substantial number of their add in sound packages (mostly acquired when I bought a refurbished Keys Pro 37, the first one had a problem that the F notes wouldn't sound, and I complained loudly about having to pay shipping to them on a factory refurb which had just arrived. They couldn't pay me back for the shipping, but gave me some of the sound packs as a credit.

 

I have it on the iPads, but rarely use it. Every once in a while, I will have a need for some sound that it provides that I don't have elsewhere. In my own case, the app I use most extensively is Korg Module. I have every add in package there is for Module except the American Grand (already have Ravenscroft and the Ivory add in to Module, so I don't need another acoustic piano. I just prefer the sounds available on Module, and it is less resource intensive.

 

I also use Alchemy (no longer available, but still works on the older iPad 2 install), Animoog, Arp Odyssei, Galileo, iFretless Bass, Korg iM1, Nave, and OnSong Pro (for charts),

 

Having said that, I don't know how much improvement version 3 or 4 might make. At this point, it is more of a matter that I really have just about all the sounds I want already, either free or purchased, and don't need anything else for my purposes.

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jim

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  • 3 weeks later...

I ended up purchasing Sampletank 4 Max (pc/ios) (there is currently (as of October, 2020) a sale for that product) The product has thousands of sounds. My goal is to make this my performance synth and I believe this will work for a while (though not good for jams where you play one or two songs as the setup is too complicated). I have been testing it for several weeks. It is a vastly improved product from earlier versions. The sounds are higher quality and there is less latency, and the interface is good. Negatives is that the product is too complex and the processing power in my laptop is high (but manageable).

 

I also purchased Korg Module Pro (Ipad) and am trying that. The sound quality and latency seems slightly better than S4, but S4 has a lot more sounds for the price and several additional features. Worth getting free/entry level versions of both and comparing.

Casio Privia PX-300,  Roland Juno DS-61, Yamaha NP-30, Sampletank 4, Korg Module and Gadget (IPad Air), Roland Juno 106, Mackie Pro FX-6

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  • 10 months later...

For the sake of closure, I will provide an update on this thread that my budget setup ended up being Korg Module with Casio Privia and the Alesis Controller (for two keyboards). Korg Module is very good IPAD keyboard software with limited latency and quality sounds. I have used it in a lot in virtual jams, and some in live jams and it brought my sound quality to where it needed to be. I don't know yet if it will work with live performance. Combined with my audio interface, I think so but it is a lot of equipment pieces. The audio interface removes the possibility of dropoffs with notes which occurs occasionally with IPAD only. Works well with the Privia.

 

Sampletank has a ton of interesting sounds but there is too much latency and unpredictability of sound quality for playing with others, and the interface is too complicated. Korg Module is easier to use

Casio Privia PX-300,  Roland Juno DS-61, Yamaha NP-30, Sampletank 4, Korg Module and Gadget (IPad Air), Roland Juno 106, Mackie Pro FX-6

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I looked into IPad software and that brought me to IKmultimedia, who I knew had a look of IPad products. I had used another of their products in the past, Sampletank 2.5, with my PC. The version I had used did not work for me for performance, but I decided to try the more recent Sampletank PC versions and, combined with my audio interface and Alesis controller, that may be adequate as the budget keyboard I am looking for now.

 

I am currently trying the free versions 3 and 4. They have decent response and feel. I actually like 3 - the earlier version-better. It is pretty easy to assign effects to the controls, and to edit sounds. Good set of sounds. The software seems to take a lot of processing and I have concerns about that. I will post further thoughts in the future. Opinions on Sampletank 3 or 4?

 

I have 3 and 4 - excellent! ST on iOS is ok, and has a few good operational things, BUT no AUv3 version. And from what I have been told by IK, no plans to do one (but with Korg Module now offering AUv3 - who knows?) If you are not aware, the difference is with AUv3 you can have multiple versions within a host. IAA (as in the IK case) can only have one open in the background, which is accessed via the hosting app. Although there would be NO issues if all you want to run is just ST.

 

But the PC version, excellent! Particularly 4 where they have streamlined the operation a bit more,

There is no luck - luck is simply the confluence of circumstance and co-incidence...

 

Time is the final arbiter for all things

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