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Adding midi to grand piano


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HI All,

 

In the future we are downsizing and I need to either give up my grand piano or my separate practice space and I was thinking I could combine them. Does anyone have experience with adding midi to a grand piano ? I came across a system called QRS pro scan and I think there may be at least one other manufacturer. I currently use a Roland FP-90 as a controller and various VI's. My main concern would be (1) how = the midi controller would feel and would it be as least as good as the Roland (for jazz acoustic) and (2) would I damage or degrade the value of the piano, as I was thinking about putting this on my dream piano like a small Steinway. Comments or suggestions welcome?

Charlie

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HI All,

 

In the future we are downsizing and I need to either give up my grand piano or my separate practice space and I was thinking I could combine them. Does anyone have experience with adding midi to a grand piano ? I came across a system called QRS pro scan and I think there may be at least one other manufacturer. I currently use a Roland FP-90 as a controller and various VI's. My main concern would be (1) how = the midi controller would feel and would it be as least as good as the Roland (for jazz acoustic) and (2) would I damage or degrade the value of the piano, as I was thinking about putting this on my dream piano like a small Steinway. Comments or suggestions welcome?

Charlie

The studio I work at has a Live Performance LX MIDI system fitted to our Hamburg Steinway D. Here it is in action:

 

http://www.pianoproducer.com/the-pianos/

 

It was custom installed at the time of re-stringing and adding a new set of hammers. The Live Performance LX system was designed by Wayne Stahnke, who was part of the development team at Yamaha for the Disklavier MIDI acoustic pianos.

 

I've also been involved with the installation of a cheaper system called PianoDisc on a few smaller grand pianos (Steinway Model A and a smaller Ritmuller Grand) when I worked with the Australian Steinway Agents about 7 years ago. When done well, they have no negative impact on the piano's structural integrity or playability, but finding a good technician to install and calibrate them accurately is critical.

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I have installed the PRS PNOScan rail in three different pianos. It works great. It works better the better piano you have. I use it for capturing improv. I hook it to the DAW sometimes and record both MIDI and audio. Other times, I just grab my iPad and a MIDI interface and just record into the iPad, dump it to Dropbox and pick it up on the DAW.

 

Prior to the Kawai RX-7, I had it installed in a fully rebuilt 1885 Steinway-A (85 note) and a small Kohler and Cambell baby grand of modest quality. The damper action in the Steinway is on a wood rail, The damper action in the Kawai is both much better engineered, and on an aluminum extrusion. The dampers ALWAYS rise and fall as one, and it is capable of far more nuance. It was way easier to setup and calibrate the damper portion of the system in consequence.

 

Similarly, longer piano keys give more control, and I find that the system is better in the Kawai than the Steinway. It's a better piano technically, and the system gives more even response. I spent a lot of time sorting out a good curve for the Steinway, but the Kawai has worked well "out of the box".

 

I don't think most will want to install the system themselves, but if you aren't afraid to pull the action, remove the whippen assembly, take off the keys etc, it isn't too bad. Takes an afternoon. And you have to be brave enough to drill a hole in the underside of the keybed to get sensor wires to the control unit. Or you can (and probably should) pay a tech to do it. I know my limits and so does my tech. I offered him the work and he said - "I hate installing those. You will be fine". And I was. The documentation is adequate, but not awesome. Knowing things like what the stripe means on ribbon connectors is useful - but if you plug them upside down, it won't hurt anything - it just won't work. You will get very good at pulling the action as you figure it all out. I had to troubleshoot a few noises where I hadn't secured some of the cables well enough and one key would trigger a little noise as it brushed the cable. Pull the action, tape it down (metalized foil tape is provided) and all is well. But the system works very reliably if correctly installed. I am now "fast" at it, having done it 3 times. I always remind my tech about the system if he wants to pull the action - there is a cable to disconnect before pulling the action out of the case. Takes 2 sec, but you have to remember it is there.

 

QRS has been helpful with parts. I damaged one of the long ribbon cables taking it out of the Steinway. I could not find a long enough cable on Mouser, in Hong Kong, etc. But I called them up and they sent it to me for either free, or some very nominal cost. Plugged it in and I was running great again.

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I should add - the real piano is capable of way more dynamic range than the MIDI rail. There is no way to play as dynamically as the instrument is capable of and record every subtle nuance. There's a reason the Bosendorfer system has 1024 levels. You can't get that on any other system including QRS. I use the rail to capture note values and timing, primarily. Like anything, you'll learn how much range you have and how to play in it. But if you expect from whisper to roar will perfectly match your playing, with pristine values from 1 to 127 - that won't be a result. (But that isn't what happens on a digital keyboard either). So maybe part of this is expectations? I have modest expectations and am thrilled. Others have stronger expectations than mine and are still happy. I can controllably generate from teens to 127's, but I don't reach the full roar the instrument is capable of acoustically.

 

Also realized I didn't address the "damage to instrument'. The system works optically. It makes no contact with the keys, action or mechanism. There is zero damage to the instrument. Mounting the control box is two small screws into the underside of the belly of the piano. One hole goes through the belly of the piano (I incorrectly said keybed above - that would be horrible - one can't mess with the keybed!). None of this is of any structural concern at all.

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I should add - the real piano is capable of way more dynamic range than the MIDI rail. There is no way to play as dynamically as the instrument is capable of and record every subtle nuance. There's a reason the Bosendorfer system has 1024 levels. You can't get that on any other system including QRS. . .

 

This information regarding the Live Performance LX system installed in our Steinway D states otherwise:

 

http://www.live-performance.com/whylx.html

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Yes, I think Bosendorfer bought a patented system and then the patent ran out. No one makes an aftermarket one that nice, unfortunately. I haven't played the Steinway one. The Bosendorfer one is exceptional. I would expect the same is true of the Steinway.

The Live Performance LX system installed in our Steinway D is superb, and unnervingly accurate in capturing all the subtle details of not only performances captured/recorded on the piano, but also in playing back MIDI files sent to us which are played on keyboards & digital pianos (the best results are with MIDI files generated from a performance on a weighted keyboard). We have recorded piano tracks on the Steinway from MIDI files sent to us for numerous albums, as well as capturing piano MIDI during live studio sessions, which gives pianists the benefit of playing more freely, knowing that any errant notes or parts can be tweaked after the fact, and re-recorded in the same space after the session.

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I did tons of records in the 90s with MIDIed grands, mostly Forte or Gulbransens. There's still a Gulbransen on my little G3 Yamaha, here at the house but I haven't even turned it on in years! I got asked to work with Moog when they first developed the Pianobar but it didn't go well. I never could get it to track properly and whoever was their head techie on the project was kind of a dick. I couldn't deal with missing notes, especially when it just couldn't keep up with my typical range of velocities and note input. Every time I tried to get Mr. dickhead to consider there might be room for improvement he kept insisting I had "obviously" not installed it properly! Eventually I got tired and sent it back. If you go that route, I hope they eventually put more bench time into it.
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