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artdob

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I fall in the category of having sold equipment (amps, speakers) that I find sure would be useful to have today. Presently without any amp or speakers setup (have typically relied on house systems) and looking to do some duo/trio small club gigs. Main board will likely be my Hammond XK5 for these, and on occasion digital piano. Browsing the forums, the consensus seems to be to stay away from dedicated keyboard amplifiers. So in looking at either a powered or passive speaker setup (two speakers), what would y'all recommend? Interested in thoughts on speaker size too - 12 inch versus 15 inch (or other) - knowing that I'll be holding up bass parts on the Hammond. Also looking for something that won't break my back to transport and move.
Hammond XK5, Alesis QS8, Yamaha DX7IIFD, Roland XV2020 (SRX-11 & 12), Kawai RX7, Scheidmayer Clavichord, Strymon (Flint, Big Sky, Timeline, Mobius, Ola, El Capistan), Neo Ventilator II
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It is impossible to answer based on driver diameter. What matters is the amount of air moved. Without the excursion data, no one knows how much air is moved. For the same excursion, 15 moves more than 12, obviously. But there are high-excursion 12" drivers that will put out twice the output of crappy 15's. None of these specs tell you how powerful the magnets are - and that controls how dynamic the cone response can be as it accelerates back and forth. Most portable PA specs are "highly optimistic" best case, and downright useless in the main. Max SPL is typically a point value at the most sensitive frequency, assuming theoretical perfection. But no one listens to one frequency only (often close to 1khz). These specs are useless.

 

If you want to see proper PA specifications, look at Fulcrum Acoustics to understand what useful specifications look like. These speakers are very expensive. The specs are exceptional. They perform to the spec sheet. BassBoss has completely trustworthy specs also.

 

The other thing about PA speakers. The specs are decidedly optimistic - the low frequency is generally specified as the 10db-down point. That means the rolloff is starting at least 10-15Hz above that. 8" speakers don't do much below 80Hz. A pair of really excellent 12's (B&C drivers will get you mid 40's). Typical JBL 12/15 stuff will be around 60Hz before it drops like a stone. This means that subs are mandatory if you want the low end.

 

For subs, there is no replacement for displacement. Big amps, big boxes, long throw drivers. Generally stuff up to the JBL SRX118 will get you a giant peak of bass around 60Hz, and response to about 40Hz, with not huge amounts of anything below that.

 

The bottom octave does not come cheap or light. Typically, a pair of dual 18's is the entrance ticket. BassBoss serves this market very well. I'd look at a DJ18, or SSP18/ZV-18 if this territory is interesting. Truly awe inspiring bass awaits if you get a pair of SSP218's. (But they are also 200 lbs ea).

 

There are lightweight PA systems. There are excellent PA systems. But there isn't much of a VENN diagram between them. I have a pair of Fulcrum Acoustics FA22ac's, which may be the best "speaker on a stick" ever made. They have a pair of 12's and come in at 60lbs. That is super light in PA terms. The JBL SRX 835 is roughly comparable for frequency output, but is almost twice as tall, and weighs closer to 80lbs. There is a vast difference in sound quality. The SRX 835 is a well-made, popular PA speaker. The FA22's are exceptional PA speakers (but cost 2x).

 

There's lots of light plastic PA speakers. They play "loud". But if you want loud, low, and good, it will not be light. Everyone picks their own compromise. If no sonic compromises are to be made, weight and cost are the factors that flex. Professional PA companies standard subs are dual 18's at 200-225lbs. They are easy to handle on the dolly boards. But they won't fit in a car.

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Main board will likely be my Hammond XK5 for these, and on occasion digital piano.

For organ in particular, lots of people love the Spacestations. People often supplement the small one with a sub, which presumably would not be needed for the bigger one. It's not top notch for piano, but if it's only for occasional use, it should be fine... and assuming you have access to some EQ with a flexible midrange control (in the piano itself, or outboard e.g. in a mixer), you can improve the pianos pretty easily.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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And I would say that, yes, most of us are down on keyboard amps. However, the newest Motion Sound products would probably warrant an asterisk by that statement.

 

There are a few folks here who have them and are raving about them. I myself am interested in them as they are stereo, and a simple setup. Given that you will be providing bass in your Hammond rig, it might something to consider as they make one with a 15" that reportedly has great low-end. Search the forum for those discussions? Might be worth it to at least know about them.....

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You mention small club gigs.

Gigantic speakers are total overkill in such situations.

 

Among the factors to consider is dispersion, the width of the angle of "coverage." Another factor is the quality of the midrange sound. In general, smaller "mid-woofers" have more dispersion that larger ones and clearer mids.

An 8" speaker will sound more even from center to edges at a wider field than a 15", which is more directional. Another factor to consider is intermodulation distortion, where the low notes move the cone a considerable distance and this affects the clarity-phase relationship of the mids coming out of the same cones. A subwoofer as part of a 3-way system will reduce or eliminate intermodulation distortion, making for a more enjoyable listening experience for your audience.

 

For small club gigs I would recommend a pair of QSC powered 8" 2-way speakers and a 10" subwoofer as a complete system for keys, PA and anything else that needs to be spread throughout the room.

 

Will be nice and light, not take up much space and more than enough power for a small club gig.

 

FWIW, I've played many small club gigs in a duo. 2 vocalist/guitarists. We don't need or use a subwoofer but keys will benefit greatly. Our entire PA system for the 2 of us is a Fishman Loudbox Performer with a 3 way speaker system. We set it behind us, use the kickstand to get the sound out into the room and it is both monitors and mains. It sounds fantastic and gets much louder than we need. The other guitarist uses a Fishman Loudbox Artist for an acoustic guitar and I use a Roland Cube 40gx. Everything is small, light, quick to set up and tear down and we get lots of compliments for having a clear, full sound at a reasonable volume.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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I agree with Nathanael as far as FoH PA is concerned, but dual-18s is several orders of magnitude of overkill for personal amplification. I've heard folks here say that 10in QSCs are too bassy on their own!

 

I'd probably start by looking at QSC, Yamaha, and EV (ZXA1 and ZXA1-sub). What is your budget?

 

Cheers, Mike.

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Pretty flexible on budget - just looking for the right combination of weight, sound quality - price is less a consideration (to a point). Also now pondering if I just buy a powered amp to pair with my Ashley mixer, or go with a new powered mixer which may provide more flexibility as the Ashley only has 1/4 inputs I believe - fine for keys, but if I want to engage a vocalist on occasion, XLRs might be nice to have.
Hammond XK5, Alesis QS8, Yamaha DX7IIFD, Roland XV2020 (SRX-11 & 12), Kawai RX7, Scheidmayer Clavichord, Strymon (Flint, Big Sky, Timeline, Mobius, Ola, El Capistan), Neo Ventilator II
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All depends on the size of space you have to setup in and how close to the speakers are you going to be. Big speakers 12" or 15" the sound develops further away from the speaker so if sitting close can be hard to hear. Over the years of playing and being in audio I gone to preferring multiple small speakers over large speakers. First small speakers are easier to hear when close to them, but multiple small speakers can have more speaker area moving air than one large speaker. For myself I'd get some sort of 2x10" setup to cover most situations and add a 1x12" if big room and needed to push more air.
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Keeping it simple. forget specs and go listen or try at home. I've had great sucess with a pair of JBL Eon Ones run in stereo. Surprizingly good bass but for a party where I might have to alsk DJ I occasionally I add a small 12" sub. A step up would be the Yamaha StagesPas 1K. Wouldn's ever need a sub with two of those. Built in mixers, fairly portable as they pack into themselves, and no speakers stands needed. Very good balanced sound that covers a room and won't cost a fortune.
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Great discussion and lots of good information here. I'll throw in one additional thought; borrow one (or two) and test drive it (them) in a gig environment to see how it REALLY works for you. Here's why:

 

1. Spec's don't always tell the whole story. Each manufacturer tends to measure or spin specs in different ways making hard to really compare products based on specs alone.

2. Your impression based on an in-store demo may not translate to on-stage. Sometimes products are voiced to demo well; these attributes may work against you on-stage.

3. The tweeter size is as important as the woofer, particularly for piano sounds. This will show up on stage and at gig volume but might not reveal itself listening to recorded music or at lower volumes in the store.

DISCLAIMER - professionally affiliated with Fulcrum Acoustic www.fulcrum-acoustic.com
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For small club gigs I would recommend a pair of QSC powered 8" 2-way speakers and a 10" subwoofer as a complete system for keys, PA and anything else that needs to be spread throughout the room.

 

Will be nice and light, not take up much space and more than enough power for a small club gig.

+1. I'd start with the 2 QSC K8's and see if you want to add sub. You need to put the K8's on low stands of some kind, never flat on the floor.
These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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+1. I'd start with the 2 QSC K8's and see if you want to add sub. You need to put the K8's on low stands of some kind, never flat on the floor.

 

plus 1,000. I have posted this many times over the years. I went to see Benji Porecki (if you don't know who he is, you need to look him up) at Georgia Brown's in DC years ago. Organ trio, sax and drums. Walked into the restaurant while they were playing their set. Kept looking around for a subwoofer, and there wasn't one. Couldn't believe it. Just 2 QCS K8's on stands. Still find it amazing after all these years.

:nopity:
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I agree with Nathanael as far as FoH PA is concerned, but dual-18s is several orders of magnitude of overkill for personal amplification

 

Indeed! And hopefully what I wrote wasn't a recommendation for that. My intent was to try to give some clarity around what kind of results one can get. The low/midrange PA stuff is just so poorly specified, one really has no idea what to expect. And buying experience first-hand is expensive. I think it is useful know where the top is and work backwards to find out where the "threshold of diminishing returns" kicks in, and what to expect from a given configuration.

 

I have found it very useful to know that a box with a pair of 8" speakers or a single 10 isn't going to play much below 80Hz. Boxes with a single 12 or a single 15 are just not going to do a lot below 60Hz no matter how expensive it is. But if you have two 12's or two 15's in a single box, you'll get into the mid 40's. But, any "speaker on a stick" is going to have a weak B-string if your bass player plays 5 string or you play Moog bass. The response will change noticeably on the B string or below 45hz. This is independent of cost. You can spend a few hundred up to $5k/box and these observations will hold on frequency response. The boxes WILL sound different as the price goes up.

 

If solid response below 60Hz is needed, smallish single speaker subs from MI companies like JBL will get to 40Hz indoors. If the B-string has to be solid (or the lowest note on a piano ~ 28Hz), it will take professional subwoofers. You cannot do this with MI branded single-driver subs from JBL and others. BassBoss can do this with single-driver long-excursion 18" drivers with 2kW amps ($2-3k ea). But if the tops are run all the way up to 125-130dB SPL, you can run out of sub outdoors (probably not indoors). So, awesome, crazy-good sounding full spectrum sound can be had for most practical indoor situations for under $10k and definitely below $15k. But one has to deal with a pair of 100-125lb subs. A white van is required. You can't buy subs that do this at GuitarCenter or Sweetwater.

 

Having laugh-out-loud-ridiculously awesome, fun, musical bass that effortlessly descends into the mid-20's takes dual 18 professional subs (200-225lbs ea) and around 4kW of power to each box. Look up BassBoss SSP-218's. These subs will hit you in the chest at 50 feet(not joking or exaggerating), and move your clothing up closer. No replacement for displacement. The sound at 100' will be jaw-droppingly good. This sub setup will outrun any self-powered tops (including my Fulcrums running full tilt), or put differently will give you headroom such that they play with zero distortion at the ludicrous volume of your tops flickering 2dB below the limiter all night long. This makes the sound relaxed, free, and effortless, and removes mud from the midrange. Think about where the distortion products from bass frequencies live... That's right, the low mids - the mud territory. Why buy high-power, high-end subs? Because you love your low mids, and to get rid of mud. Good subs make your tops better. Great subs make them sing. Asking too much of tops puts distortion right into the low mids where all the instruments are already crowded. This setup will give 300-500 people an amazing sonic experience - euphoric even (PA system cost ~$30k; Sprinter Van or trailer needed). To go bigger than this, better tops are needed, and the subs just keep stacking. But "bigger tops" (output 140-145 dB/SPL) start to weigh 200lbs, and require rigging. Different game. So, now you know where speakers-on-a-stick find their limits. And why PA companies only use them as stage monitors or corporate event boxes.

 

Inexpensive top boxes play "loudish", but generate a ton of distortion doing it. You will notice that they never specify %THD at rated SPL... They also don't play loud evenly, and often have significant peaky mid/highs right in the sensitive 2-3kHz region. "Ice pick highs". That's how they make their rated SPL, but this is not a good sound, nor one with any headroom. Happily, in a duo or small room gigs, and bar situations these boxes are NOT played loud. Loud meaning anywhere within 10-15dB of their claimed SPL capability. Problems avoided. This is how one person can find them unusable as FoH, and someone else finds them perfect for a small room. Context matters. But to maximize the sonic potential of the plastic PA's? Get a sub and roll off those tops at 80 or 100Hz. This will help them avoid distortion and improve the sound noticeably, even if you only have light small subs that go to 60Hz. The sound WILL improve the less you ask of the tops in the low end. You want the best "speaker on stick" sound in your town? Keep your tops, buy one BassBoss DJ-18 and put it in front of the center of the stage.

 

Some nice "threshold" top boxes (ie, you have to spend 2x to do better): RCF TT-series . JBL SRX (two way and three way options). These play loud and still sound good. Loud being rated SPL. If you have to throw distance, particularly outdoors, 100-110dB of cleanish output will NOT feed the bulldog. One needs the 125-130dB on the spec sheet to work evenly and without distortion across the whole response of the speaker. The lightweight plastic PA's do not do this. These "threshold" boxes do. BassBoss defines "threshold" subs. Other companies can generate the same output. Their boxes are 2-4x the cost of BassBoss, but don't sound better or play louder. BassBoss is the entry to truly professional sub performance at "expensive, but costs-like-an-instrument" prices.

 

The boxes above these "threshold" boxes are professional PA company boxes, generally at 2-4x the price. Weight is not generally a concern because PA companies have crew. Driver quality goes way up. Most PA companies prefer amp racks to self-powered speakers for redundancy reasons. Unless you are earning your living from PA (not possible right now...) these are all off-limits.

 

Probably few here care about this in the land of gigging keyboard players. I've done a bunch of live mixing on a bunch of different sized systems, above and below what I own. My PA deploys in three sizes: Fulcrum tops only, Fulcrum tops with single Danley TH-112 (flat to 27Hz), but output only for indoor, small settings, and then the full rig - Fulcrum + BassBoss SSP-218's. The full rig sounds so good it is silly. Even at soft, small room volumes, it sounds crystal clear and effortless at all frequencies.

 

I'd love to do sound for many of you that play much better than I do. You would be floored by what is possible to translate to an audience. PA can sound better than your in-ears, and not by a little. My drummer says, "its the best loud sound I've ever heard". There are much louder PAs, that cover many more people. But for raw sound quality, it is objectively and subjectively excellent.

 

Maybe few here care directly, but now you know what you can expect just by looking at what the FoH or PA company brought. The driver size will give you the low end extension. The presence of subs, number and type will complete the picture for any given room or outdoor space.

 

Maybe when this virus is tamped down, we can have a Bay Area jam session or something, or someone will ask nice and I'll drive down to LA for a night of sonic wonder and aural enchantment. Profligate use of low synth bass will be entirely encouraged and expected.

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Wow, excellent thread! I"m blown away by the knowledge shared. Thank you so much. I"ve struggled through the years to find keyboard amplification that meets the OP"s requirements. As I get older gear weight has factored more into my choices.

 

For organ gigs with LH bass I use a dual manual Mojo, Spacestation SS V3, and MarkBass CMD 121P bass amp. Sounds great in a small venue for organ w/LH bass but does not reproduce digital piano well IMHO. I had a subwoofer for awhile but the bass lacked warmth and clarity of pitch. So, I sold it and bought the MarkBass amp.

 

For digital piano gigs my pair of RCF TT08As sound great. I had QSC K8s and K10s previously. They sounded very good at low to medium volume but sounded bad when pushed.

 

For blues or rock gigs I use a Motion Sound KP-610S. It"s the only keyboard amp I"ve ever had that I like. It doesn"t sound as good as the RCFs and doesn"t create the Leslie effect as well as SS V3, but requires less space, less setup, has a built in mixer with spatial effect and continues to provide very good stereo sound when pushed. If I were younger I might have opted for KP-612S or maybe even the version with 15' speakers.

 

Here"s a KP-610S vs. TT08A pair comparison I posted on YT that might be helpful. I used digital piano because I find that it"s the most difficult keyboard sound to reproduce well.

 

[video:youtube]

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12" is best for me, preferably two of them, it's not about volume but bass, you can really feel it, and a full bottom makes all the other frequencies shine. 10" comes close but doesn't really cut it compared to 12's, kind of weak, and forget about 8".

 

And yes, powered speakers were the only option for many years, but I think many just preferred the smaller size and weight for stage monitoring, no need to carry more with a PA. But small powered speakers were never a great option to address even a small crowd, you basically need a PA for yourself and that sucks, Motion Sound made that notion go away, although there has always been decent amps that sound better than powered speakers for organ, electric piano, synths, etc. like the Traynor K4.

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For a little perspective here, the OP is looking to do small primarily-organ based duo/trio club gigs, with his XK5. Organ sounds absolutely killer through a Leslie 122 with a 15" woofer, I don't thing we need to be talking about dual 18s and 130 dB for a small club organ-based duo/trio. There has been interesting digression here, but not so relevant to what the OP needs.

 

Al Quinn and I have suggested the Spacestation, which I think will do a great job, whether with Al's solution of adding something like that Markbass amp, or probably (though I have not heard one) by getting the XL version if its 65 lbs is not prohibitive (and with two inputs, that also might obviate the need for a mixer).

 

Al, while I agree about the Spacestation for piano, I was able to make what I found to be a very substantial improvement by dialing in a 3 dB midrange cut at some frequency on my Yamaha mixer... I don't remember which midrange frequency it was, but it wasn't tough to find if you have a reference (i.e. play the piano through good headphones or your QSC or RCF, and dial your center frequency until you get rid of the bit of honk that you're hearing on the Spacestation compared to your reference). Will it be as good as your RCF? No, probably not, but it will almost certainly be more than acceptable, especially in this context of it being for just occasional use (as opposed to doing an entire solo jazz piano performance). Some digital pianos have flexible on-board EQ, so an external mixer/EQ may not even be necessary for this.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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A lot of people knock Bose, but if you know what you are doing they can be a great system. I've been building a system with Bose 802s (Series II are the best) and a pair of Bose 302 subwoofers. 302 are heavy but with dual 12s they sure are punchy bass. The Bose 802c processor is a MUST (show me a Bose 802 critic and I'll show you someone who is not using the 802c or a poor amplifier). I like low end as well as good clarity and this system delivers. But for large halls or outdoor a bigger system is definitely required. Small speakers simply cannot move enough air due to inverse square law.

 

Having laugh-out-loud-ridiculously awesome, fun, musical bass that effortlessly descends into the mid-20's takes dual 18 professional subs (200-225lbs ea) and around 4kW of power to each box. Look up BassBoss SSP-218's. These subs will hit you in the chest at 50 feet(not joking or exaggerating), and move your clothing up closer. No replacement for displacement. The sound at 100' will be jaw-droppingly good. This sub setup will outrun any self-powered tops (including my Fulcrums running full tilt), or put differently will give you headroom such that they play with zero distortion at the ludicrous volume of your tops flickering 2dB below the limiter all night long. This makes the sound relaxed, free, and effortless, and removes mud from the midrange. Think about where the distortion products from bass frequencies live... That's right, the low mids - the mud territory. Why buy high-power, high-end subs? Because you love your low mids, and to get rid of mud. Good subs make your tops better. Great subs make them sing. Asking too much of tops puts distortion right into the low mids where all the instruments are already crowded. This setup will give 300-500 people an amazing sonic experience - euphoric even (PA system cost ~$30k; Sprinter Van or trailer needed). To go bigger than this, better tops are needed, and the subs just keep stacking. But "bigger tops" (output 140-145 dB/SPL) start to weigh 200lbs, and require rigging. Different game. So, now you know where speakers-on-a-stick find their limits. And why PA companies only use them as stage monitors or corporate event boxes.

 

I moved to dual 18 subs years ago. Yes good subwoofers make the tops better. I like punchy deep bass.

 

Our sound engineer used to tour nationally (gave it up 'cause he got tired of traveling) and he built the subwoofers we use out of 13 ply 3/4 birch plywood each loaded with two 18s. They are seriously good subwoofers especially outdoors. Birch plywood really makes a good sounding cabinet. Anything less just radiates low end all over, which leaks to stage microphones and makes mixing a lot harder.

 

Our band begged me to bring my Moog Taurus pedals. The low end out of those things puts subwoofers to work. They'll relieve constipated intestines and cause landslides. His previous subwoofers were built from standard plywood and I could feel the Taurus radiate; with the new cabinets built out of Birch plywood, I was like "are these things on...?" Couldn't feel them from behind, but they were definitely pumping out front.

 

Inexpensive top boxes play "loudish", but generate a ton of distortion doing it. You will notice that they never specify %THD at rated SPL... They also don't play loud evenly, and often have significant peaky mid/highs right in the sensitive 2-3kHz region. "Ice pick highs". That's how they make their rated SPL, but this is not a good sound, nor one with any headroom. Happily, in a duo or small room gigs, and bar situations these boxes are NOT played loud. Loud meaning anywhere within 10-15dB of their claimed SPL capability. Problems avoided. This is how one person can find them unusable as FoH, and someone else finds them perfect for a small room. Context matters. But to maximize the sonic potential of the plastic PA's? Get a sub and roll off those tops at 80 or 100Hz. This will help them avoid distortion and improve the sound noticeably, even if you only have light small subs that go to 60Hz. The sound WILL improve the less you ask of the tops in the low end. You want the best "speaker on stick" sound in your town? Keep your tops, buy one BassBoss DJ-18 and put it in front of the center of the stage.

 

Some nice "threshold" top boxes (ie, you have to spend 2x to do better): RCF TT-series . JBL SRX (two way and three way options). These play loud and still sound good. Loud being rated SPL. If you have to throw distance, particularly outdoors, 100-110dB of cleanish output will NOT feed the bulldog. One needs the 125-130dB on the spec sheet to work evenly and without distortion across the whole response of the speaker. The lightweight plastic PA's do not do this. These "threshold" boxes do. BassBoss defines "threshold" subs. Other companies can generate the same output. Their boxes are 2-4x the cost of BassBoss, but don't sound better or play louder. BassBoss is the entry to truly professional sub performance at "expensive, but costs-like-an-instrument" prices.

 

When auditioning top cabinets I noticed that too many of them lose clarity at volume and the dispersion is very narrow which creates too many problems. When auditioning them I compiled a mix CD specifically for soundcheck, which lets me listen to group sound. Most sound guys focus on specific instruments, I listen to the group sound as a whole but some soundcheck songs were chosen for specific instruments. I chose the JBL SF25 3-way cabinet (later re-badged SRX125) and have been very happy with them. With the sound 90% there, I could tame the sound with some EQ. EQ cannot fix every cabinet flaw, go for a good cabinet first.

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Just because it's a small gig doesn't mean a small powered speaker is best, because again it's not about volume, you want the organ to sound good and that takes some speaker size IMO.

 

I'm not saying these gigs need a Leslie or 15", or even a 2x12, but I'd never go with less than 1x12 if my amp was addressing the audience. I'd rather turn down a bigger speaker/amp than crank up a little one any day, it just sounds better.

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For a little perspective here, the OP is looking to do small primarily-organ based duo/trio club gigs, with his XK5. Organ sounds absolutely killer through a Leslie 122 with a 15" woofer, I don't thing we need to be talking about dual 18s and 130 dB for a small club organ-based duo/trio. There has been interesting digression here, but not so relevant to what the OP needs.

.

No argument. I have not been recommending a solution. I've been explaining what is possible and what one gets in different configurations. There's been a lot of recommendations without any perspective as to where those recommendations land in the spectrum of "loud sound".

 

Loud sound is simple: How loud? How low? How far? How much sound quality? The best answers are always obtained leaving weight and size till last.

 

If we take 40Hz as a great target, Here's what it takes to get flat response over the whole range of a 4 string bass (also the pedals of a Hammond) BassBoss 15" sub. This is self-powered, 21"x 24"x17" and 70lbs. It has a speaker pole socket. One could place a SpaceStation on it. The bass would be smooth, distortion free, easy and sumptuous. A small hand dolly would move it with ease. Overkill if the music is background sonic wall paper at a dinner club. If the music is to make people move, it will facilitate that. It will keep up with a drummer, no problem. In the world of loud sound, this is not expensive, but it does cost like a keyboard.

 

There are cheaper subs. They are bigger, they aren't as flat in their response, they don't put out as much at 40Hz.

 

But this is the real question: How loud, How low, how far, how much sound quality.

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But this is the real question: How loud, How low, how far, how much sound quality.

For an organ duo/trio in a small club? I'd say, as low, as far, and with as much quality as a Leslie 122. ;-) Really, the only reason a Leslie isn't the perfect answer might be the need to occasionally put some piano through it. (And that Leslies are bigger and heavier than many would want to gig with.)

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I'd love a top notch sound system everywhere I play.

Small club gigs generally do not pay enough for "cartage", or the investment in gear and a vehicle to move it.

 

I've often said I am getting paid to move gear around.

I suppose it's fair to include "babysitting alcoholics?"

 

Playing is Fun!!!, moving stuff around not so much. We bring what is appropriate to the venue AND the pay. We are good friends with True Tone Audio up here, they do outdoor sound for all the big shows and can handle anything.

You would limit an already limited seating capacity in a small club if they brought a "compact" system. Would it really have that "deep" low end in a smaller, untreated room? Hmmm...

 

To truly hear a note in the 30hz range (low B on a 5 string bass), you need more distance than many small clubs offer. Maybe the cook can feel their brains being pushed out of their nose by the sound pressure generated on stage but the people sitting close will barely hear any of it.

 

It might be different in a properly treated room, haven't seen such a wondrous thing in any of the small clubs I've gigged in. At 65 years old, I'm taking the smaller, lighter gear. If good choices are made, it can sound very good.

Small clubs are generally for hanging out with friends and having conversation, if you drown out people trying to talk a few tables back they will probably leave.

 

There is a time and a place for large, wonderful sounding systems. Small club gigs are not that time or that place in my experience.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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Some solutions to consider:

 

- Two Yamaha DXR10s. They're about $700 each, can be very loud and clean, and getting two of them provides the dispersion you'd want to cover a small club. They have enough power to function as a full PA. They won't get you the bass extension that a subwoofer will, and I'm not sure your stated usage really requires it. Each is 30 lbs., so a comfortable schlep into the club, and if you have a Rock 'n Roller cart, fuggedaboutit. QSC makes similar units in their K-line. Personally, I prefer the sound of the Yamahas over the QSC, but personal tastes vary. EV also has some similar solutions, but I have no direct experience with these.

 

- Motion Sound KP line (500S, 610s or 612S). Each of these models is a little over $1000 (1300 - 1500 street), and I'm not directly familiar with the differences between them, but for organ-centric gigs I have heard these are strong, loud and acquit themselves well for duo and trio work. They're a tad heavier than a DXR10 (50 pounds) but they have wheels.

 

There are of course tens of other solutions, both less and more expensive. But IMHO these represent two different "starting points" if you wanted to actually start demo'ing solutions that will work well in live gig situations. Good luck on your search and let us know what you land on.

 

Just my 0.02

 

Tim

..
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Lots of good discussion here on one of my favorite topics ...

 

The only thing I'd add is -- what sort of vibe are you going for with these smaller gigs? Are you going for warm and intimate, or do you want to project to the back tables? Are you background music, or are people there to see you play? For the duo/trio gigs I've done, we've gone for "warm and intimate" and fully realize that we're background music as people want to chat over what we're playing.

 

If you're leaning in that direction, there are some other options vs. a pair of QSC K8.2s or similar.

 

The first option to consider is a used SpaceStation V.3. For some reason, organs sound remarkably good through them, especially leslie effects. When I'm responsible for bass, I bring along a small/cheap/light Behringer B1200D-Pro and the combination is pretty slick. The spread of the stereo effect has to be heard to be believed. Everyone gets a nice soundstage as a result, even in odd-shaped venues. I can get the acoustic pianos to sound acceptable. They get loud enough.

 

The other approach that has worked well for me are the mini-line-array heads that include a sub. The Bose L1 family fits here, as well as models from RCF, EV and others. The mini-line-heads offers a unique combination of crystal clarity, projection *and* dispersion that I don't get with any pair of point-source speakers. A single unit is more than enough for a small gig, and you'll definitely get the bass you need.

 

However, a pair of QSC K8.2s will of course do nicely, and can be used in a wider variety of roles, e.g. floor monitor, etc. I do like mine. I also have a pair of RCF TT08a that I use for special occasions, as well as a pair of Fulcrum Acoustic 12ac units that are beyond sweet.

 

I would agree with the sentiment of generally avoiding keyboard amps, with the Motion Sound being an exception for certain types of gigs. And, yes, you want self-powered units unless your budget is forcing you to scour Craigslist or similar.

 

If, however, this is a concert situation and you're there to be heard, I've been quite happy with my pair of RCF EVOX J8s. We've done outdoor crowds of 150-200 with these and they've delivered every time. OK, if it's a festival dance thingie, I'll suck it up and bring along an 18" sub -- but that's rare.

 

A couple of things that I've learned about this stuff? Don't be afraid to spend a bit more to get something decent -- great speakers never go out of style. Schlep factor matters, of course. If you play with different bands in different venues, flexibility matters. And there's no "best" solution, just different approaches for different situations.

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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My simplistic input is:

 

B3X/iPad mini 5 and Nord Electro 4D into a Key Largo mixer out to a pair of QSC K12.2"s. Additionally a Fender Fretless Jazz. Small clubs to outdoor venues no issues being heard. Now they"re giving away the bags for free......

 

:facepalm:

 

Jake

1967 B-3 w/(2) 122's, Nord C1w/Leslie 2101 top, Nord PedalKeys 27, Nord Electro 4D, IK B3X, QSC K12.2, Yamaha reface YC+CS+CP

 

"It needs a Hammond"

 

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B3X/iPad mini 5 and Nord Electro 4D into a Key Largo mixer out to a pair of QSC K12.2"s.
Nice.

 

I'm reminded of the time I took my kids ice skating. The canned music in the rink sounded remarkably pure and well-reproduced. I glanced up - QSC K8s, one in each corner. Job done.

 

Cheers, Mike.

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I know professional sound company engineers that would never specify any 8" speaker for a music event, and would only specify a 12 or 15 as a matter of principle.

 

But data might be more useful than opinion:

 

82 Hz is approximately "E2" (2nd "E" under middle C)

61Hz is approximately "B1" (second "B" from the bottom of a piano keyboard)

41 Hz is approximately "E1" (low note on a 4 string bass, lowest "E" on a piano keyboard)

27 Hz is approximately "A0" (the lowest note on an 88 note piano)

 

Playing with a bass player, and staying out of the way? 80Hz will do nicely. To get two octaves of "C" under middle C, you need solid response to 60Hz. You want to match 4 string bass - 40Hz is your target. The low note on the Hammond organ pedalboard is C2, but the 16' stop plays C1 when that key is depressed. C1 is 32Hz approximately (the lowest "C" on a piano keyboard).

 

Generally speakers are starting to roll-off about 10Hz above whatever their 10dB down point is. By 10dB down, they are definitely soft and response is fading unmistakeably.

 

The QSC 8.2 has been mentioned several times. It is specified as -6db @ 59Hz, -10dB @ 55Hz. So, this will give reliable response down to C2 (65Hz)and start to roll off. Clearly useful for a lot of things. (The porting significantly lowers the natural response of an 8" driver....). The 8.2 has a 105 degree coverage pattern. That is quite wide - whether that is good or bad is venue dependent. It is 27lbs. That is quite light. It's easy to see why it's been recommended more than once in this thread. Hammond organ pedals play an octave lower than this speaker has coverage for. I would expect solid pedal bass to need a sub if the bass is a "featured instrument". The decision is how important that low octave is in context of the music, setting, etc. The QSC 8.2's probably sound even better if high-passed at 80 or 100Hz and letting a sub take the lowest stuff off their plate. A sub like the KS-112 or 212 would help, but still not get the C1 (16') fundamental firm, the C2 (8') would be solid, though. At the price of the 212, I'd spend the extra and get the BassBoss 15" mentioned above. I'd also choose one BassBoss vs two KS-112's any day of the week. But that's me.

 

The QSC 10.2 doesn't offer much deeper bass, but has a narrower dispersion pattern. The 12.2 extends the -6 dB point down to 50Hz, and the -10dB point to 44Hz. That is A#1, and F1 respectively. No recommendation. Just reading spec sheets so it translates into notes on a keyboard. The 12.2 has a 75 degree coverage pattern (much narrower than the 8.2). It weighs 38 lbs, which is still pretty light for a PA speaker. Unless the size and 10lbs weight difference really matter, I'd pick the 12" every time. But you already know that my tolerance for gear schlepping is "unusual" on this board.

 

Both speakers don't have true max SPL specifications. They are "calculated" theoretical max SPLs. They will never make those numbers. I'd assume they make 10dB less than that and probably sound best 15dB below these ratings. Plenty loud for small indoor spaces. Inverse square law applies outdoors (it does inside too, but you get reflections and room gain). So assuming about 118dB peak output, at 40' you'd still get 100dB SPL. Whether you like the sound quality at that volume level would have to be auditioned. Knock 5dB for sound quality preferences, and it makes about 94dB @ 40' outdoors. This is all back-of-the-napkin figures - don't take it too literal.

 

I haven't heard the .2 series, so I have no comment on the sound quality. Just trying to frame the specs in musical terms. I can see why folk like them for general keyboard duty. The price is great. I don't think you'll get bass response equivalent to a Leslie out of the 8.2 without a sub, based on the spec sheets.

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PS. If you want the C1 16' tone to be completely solid, I would purchase a BassBoss DJ-18 sub + what ever tops or Spacestation option you pick. One will do what a pair of any subs QSC makes cannot. It will be flat at 30Hz, and easily outrun the tops (not that it is required). In the context specified, the low end would be sumptuous with this option. It's the cost of two cheap/not very low QSC subs. But it delivers real low end extension effortlessly.
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I'd also choose one BassBoss vs two KS-112's any day of the week.

Although my days of dual subs are well behind me (and beyond the OP's needs as I mentioned above), there is an advantage of 2 subs compared to 1, in minimizing the effects of standing waves (i.e. the bass will be more even throughout the venue).

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