OT: High End Loudspeakers

[Delaware Dave]

I found this video interesting. I owned the L100's many years ago and always thought that they sounded fantastic. The most impressive speakers I've ever heard from his list are the Martin Logans, I think that they sold for about $10k/pair and the B&O that a friend of mine purchased for about $3k which he said sold normally for $6k. I was surprised to see the Klipsch speakers on the list; personally I don't see them competing with others on the list. My roommate from college had the Magnaplaners which I think were the predecessors to the Magnapans? They sounded awesome. I still enjoy my Mirage 1090i's which I purchased for under $1k over 20 years ago and they really haven't degraded in sound at all but see that the high end Mirage speakers (like the M1's) didn't make his list.

[video:youtube]

[Dave Bryce]

I lived with a pair of Martin Logans for a few years. VTL mono blocks. Helluva sound.

 

Me, I was a KEF guy for years. Loved my 105s.

 

dB

[timwat]

Had a few years with big high end speakers too. Big Maggies. I think every musician should have the chance to spend a little time hearing what's possible, even if it's unreasonable to keep for the long haul.

[elif]

I still have a pair of PSB Stratus Gold i. They're too large to ship and I won't sell via CL. I suppose my offspring will have to deal with them.

[Delaware Dave]

I still have a pair of PSB Stratus Gold i. They're too large to ship and I won't sell via CL. I suppose my offspring will have to deal with them.

 

They're 50 pounds each. My 1090i's are 72 pounds each.

[Nathanael_I]

I owned Dunlavy's and a Pass Labs amp for a while in a treated room. Stunning. In truth, the Genelec 8351a's that I have are probably every bit as good, if not better and a ton easier to deal with. 7' speakers that weigh 200lbs are not easy to deal with.

 

I would wish a pair of Magico M6's if money was no object.

 

In studio-world, I'd love to add a pair of the new W371 subs to my 8351a's.... That would give me the full bottom octave.

[Fleer]

I went with Dynaudio and never looked back. Incredible detail and musicality. Got two pairs of Contour 3.3 and two pairs of Special 25.

[GRollins]

Any list where the guy includes Bose in a list of best speakers of all time just because he watched R-rated movies at his uncle's house...I...but...no way...really?

 

What can I say, it's the internet.

 

I tend to avoid "Best Of" or "Top 5/10/100/whatever" lists as they're nearly always a waste of my time. The only instance where I can recall willingly looking at such a list was "Top 100 Prog Albums." I thought it might suggest bands I'd never heard of. Sure enough, it did. They were pretty terrible. In a sense, that list was a waste of time, too, but at least I sleep better at night knowing that there aren't any undiscovered Yeses or ELPs that I had somehow missed.

 

A list of audiophile speakers? Granted, he says he wants to generate discussion, so I guess maybe his goal is different than mine would be. If he generates traffic, then maybe he can monetize the whole thing, but that's not the same as compiling a serious, thoughtful list of good speakers.

 

Grey

[CEB]

K-Horns ... FTW!

 

Paul Klipsch was a genius. He designed this stuff in the 1940s.

[Zydecat]

I have an aging set of Bang & Olufsen RL140 speakers. With a small sub they still sound very good to me.

[Nathanael_I]

Any list where the guy includes Bose in a list of best speakers of all time just because he watched R-rated movies at his uncle's house...I...but...no way...really?

 

What can I say, it's the internet.

 

I tend to avoid "Best Of" or "Top 5/10/100/whatever" lists as they're nearly always a waste of my time. The only instance where I can recall willingly looking at such a list was "Top 100 Prog Albums." I thought it might suggest bands I'd never heard of. Sure enough, it did. They were pretty terrible. In a sense, that list was a waste of time, too, but at least I sleep better at night knowing that there aren't any undiscovered Yeses or ELPs that I had somehow missed.

 

A list of audiophile speakers? Granted, he says he wants to generate discussion, so I guess maybe his goal is different than mine would be. If he generates traffic, then maybe he can monetize the whole thing, but that's not the same as compiling a serious, thoughtful list of good speakers.

 

Grey

This. If one was seriously specifying best of all time, they would almost all be speakers either in current manufacture or very recent history. One look at the thumbnail said the video was not credible. None of those speakers have been "best" at anything for a very long time, despite being wonderful in their day. The advances in materials science over the last decade have catapulted what is possible. There's a lot of nonsense in audiophile world, but the top speaker companies built on solid engineering practice are turning out the best transducers ever made. The old stuff might be nostalgic, but if accurate, distortion free reproduction is the goal, it isn't anything old. The top ten would all be recent, and stunningly expensive.

 

State of the art is between 50-100k for full-range, floor-standing loudspeakers. (You know this is true because ATC and PMC's top studio monitors are in this exact same range - and they aren't selling glossy cabinets). You can also know because top mastering engineers will sometimes use the best high-fi speakers. And some do use Magico's and others. From this lofty price, then the audiophile world goes into the stratosphere of $300k+ speakers and $70k speaker wires. But the audio quality is accessible way below that - yet still at "luxury car" price levels.

 

The Kii and Genelec One's are about the best entries into the art-of-the-possible that are in any way affordable. These are again, engineering marvels by some of the best minds in the business. They are also fully active designs, with DSP cross-overs and driver correction. Both are well adopted by both studios and audiophiles. They are truly excellent by ear, and by measurement. If the audiophile community embraced technology, many of their best speakers would be even better. But that market doesn't follow actual science all that closely at the marketing level. The engineers must roll their eyes a lot at the disconnect between what they do and what some companies say to sell it.

[Dave Bryce]

The Kii and Genelec One's are about the best entries into the art-of-the-possible that are in any way affordable. These are again, engineering marvels by some of the best minds in the business. They are also fully active designs, with DSP cross-overs and driver correction. Both are well adopted by both studios and audiophiles. They are truly excellent by ear, and by measurement.

They take different approaches. That Genelec model is a dual concentric/point source design.

 

Both do feature software control. With the Kiis, I believe using the software to set them up is obligatory.

 

I quite like ATCs in the top end offerings.

 

If the audiophile community embraced technology, many of their best speakers would be even better. But that market doesn't follow actual science all that closely at the marketing level. The engineers must roll their eyes a lot at the disconnect between what they do and what some companies say to sell it.

Totally. "Audiophiles" love to hate on active monitor technology...yet a boatload of the recordings they worship were made on actives.

 

Do NOT get me started.

 

dB

[Nathanael_I]

The Kii and Genelec One's are about the best entries into the art-of-the-possible that are in any way affordable. These are again, engineering marvels by some of the best minds in the business. They are also fully active designs, with DSP cross-overs and driver correction. Both are well adopted by both studios and audiophiles. They are truly excellent by ear, and by measurement.

They take different approaches. That Genelec model is a dual concentric/point source design.

 

Both do feature software control. With the Kiis, I believe using the software to set them up is obligatory.

dB

 

Yes. I have the Genelec 8351a's. For like $100 or something, one purchases the "GLM" kit. It comes with a cheap omni measurement mic that plugs into the control interface. The system calibrates itself and then suggests correction curves for your listening space. I started with my measurement mic and SMAART on my laptop. I put a grid of blue painters tape on the floor at about 6" intervals on each side. I then moved the speakers until I had the best acoustic response I could generate, and used the grid to match them within at least an 1/8th of an inch, confirming with laser tape measure. Then I turned on the GLM system and let it take things the final level. I adjusted one of the suggested EQ points by about a decibel, and have been happy ever since.

 

So, while it may be possible to run the Genelecs without the software, I don't know why one would. The benefits are well worth it. I ended up with +- 5dB at 1/24th octave smoothing and roughly the response curve that Floyd O-Toole's work at JBL recommends. On "easy" 1/3 octave smoothing the response is textbook flat. But in the real world, there's a low mode on G2 that blooms wonderfully. The EQ partly controls it, but can't fix physics. I would need membrane traps or the PSI AAVA's to solve it. I have a nice desk reflection that is easy to see in the impulse response and the frequency domain, but I'm not getting rid of the desk. For a dedicated and fully treated, but not acoustician built room, it is an excellent result. To do better, its a big jump: soffit mounting, optimizing the desk like Northward Acoustics might, non-parallel walls, deep wall treatment, etc. The step function is large, and not practical for residential construction.

[Nathanael_I]

PS. If you want to see the finest ATC installs in the world, check out Northward Acoustics. They are one of the current "hot designers" for the world's best mastering rooms. What they do to isolate soffit mounted ATC monitor is as good as it gets. Truly excellent.

[KuruPrionz]

Any list where the guy includes Bose in a list of best speakers of all time just because he watched R-rated movies at his uncle's house...I...but...no way...really?

 

I almost chimed in on this, partly because Bose but mainly because movies back then would be on a VHS or Betamax tape cartridge. Not exactly high end audio reproduction in the first place to say nothing of the speakers.

 

Oh well, as you say - it's the interwebz.

[jazzpiano88]

K-Horns ... FTW!

 

Paul Klipsch was a genius. He designed this stuff in the 1940s.

 

Yep. I've got the horn loaded Cornwall III's.

Exquisite!!

[Dave Bryce]

while it may be possible to run the Genelecs without the software, I don't know why one would. The benefits are well worth it.

 

Totally acknoweledged...but at least you can! With the Kii3, if you don't follow their setup they can sound pretty awful, I'm told. A dangerous chance to take as a new brand, despite Bruno Putzey's previous work.

 

I'm curious about the Dutch & Dutch 8cs as well - people whose ears I respect seem to like them.

 

But in the real world, there's a low mode on G2 that blooms wonderfully. The EQ partly controls it, but can't fix physics.

 

See? No substitute for what you like, flat be damned. I love that...

 

I would need membrane traps or the PSI AAVA's to solve it.

The AVAA is freaking amazing! I'm a big fan of PSI's in general. Almost got a pair of A21M, but went with the HEDD Type 20 instead. I love that hybrid three way design, and am a fan of Klaus' ribbons. I balance them with a pair of Amphion One15s, which use a low x-over point (1600 Hz) to get them to exhibit point/source behavior.

 

dB

[Nathanael_I]

I didn't mean that I think the modal blooming is desirable, but I do see where that is a valid reading of what I wrote. I'd happily not have it. But when practicing bass, if you sit in the right place, the low end is truly magnificent! That said, the AAVA's have been on and off the list - just never near enough to the top. But I know they'd help a lot. Really nice setup!

 

The other thing about the Kii Three's is that they have interesting latency behavior. Their "best mode" has an amount of latency (due to the flat phase filters) that is untenable for playing along. But they also have a low latency mode that dials back some of the correction quality so the response is more immediate. I would buy any of Bruno's work unheard. He is an amazing designer, and clearly cares deeply about audio quality.

 

But mine is a Genelec world. The tools are all there for surround and even immersive audio. I have a quad setup right now (no center channel), but when it grows up, I want a 7.4.2 immersive setup.

[GRollins]

Part of the disconnect between people who are serious about high end audio and people who approach things from...let's call it the "studio" approach...is that "studio" people obsess over flat frequency response. Yep, that's important, but...if you're from the high end realm you also want qualities like imaging and imaging (as well as other things) tends to get fucked up by technological band aids. This is what led to the deletion of tone controls on high end gear. Some people rant about it being about some sort of philosophical thing about the people who made the album knowing what the album should sound like and the user was not supposed to mess with their artistic vision...bullshit! It's much simpler than that, folks. Tone controls introduced unavoidable phase shifts in the signal, which made the image blurred and unstable. Solution? Delete tone controls. Now, those of a "studio" mentality complain because they can't EQ to get flat(ter) response. From their point of view, they're correct, but it's a totally different approach to a totally different problem.

 

Grey

[Theo Verelst]

If you want full range response with more than a few watts, you'll need more than those towers can create. The idea of high end audio the way I remember it would be "neutral" sound reproduction, or you're looking for effect equipment. The notion of a speaker box in a room is clearly not understood: the amount of waves any not seriously damped room is going to throw at the listeners is amazing, and requires productions and reproduction with great balance and low distortion and reverb control to make those great record sound great.

 

Also, if your high end stereo system make digital sound wonderful in some way, it's suspect, because it can't: reconstruction errors of your DAC are in almost every case of any digital source of audio going to fall short immensely and that should reflect in the miserable mids and lack of accurate, distinct highs that make any bass drum sound like Donald Duck or something. I think originally, good tapes (I recently found out there were reel to reel tapes from for instance the Beatles in the '60s) or well used records on a decent amp with at least 3 way speakers with not too small woofer give quite a different idea of wonderful sound than most modern people have ever heard or know how to relate to, which is a shame.

 

My 5 way (from 15 inch sub up to the to ribbon tweeter) low distortion 3 way multi amplification system with high grade electronic (not digital) separation filters can amplify a decent (studio or measurement) mic to the point of sound perfectly boring: nothing much gets added or interestingly removed from the sound. Digital I use a high grade 32bit low out of band noise, very low jitter ground separate DIY DAC with excellent driving from digital systems (no sample clock or volume attenuation errors), or studio grade converters (Lexicons, Yamaha) and that's not easy to get to that war m and acoustically neutral sound with at all. Lots of work most people don't know about.

 

So if your digital idea of audio bliss is nothing special except for certain dream speakers that's a good beginning, but if you arrive a that bliss, you most certainly getting things wrong.

 

Theo V.

[Nathanael_I]

Part of the disconnect between people who are serious about high end audio and people who approach things from...let's call it the "studio" approach...is that "studio" people obsess over flat frequency response. Yep, that's important, but...if you're from the high end realm you also want qualities like imaging and imaging (as well as other things) tends to get fucked up by technological band aids. This is what led to the deletion of tone controls on high end gear. Some people rant about it being about some sort of philosophical thing about the people who made the album knowing what the album should sound like and the user was not supposed to mess with their artistic vision...bullshit! It's much simpler than that, folks. Tone controls introduced unavoidable phase shifts in the signal, which made the image blurred and unstable. Solution? Delete tone controls. Now, those of a "studio" mentality complain because they can't EQ to get flat(ter) response. From their point of view, they're correct, but it's a totally different approach to a totally different problem.

 

Grey

 

This is exactly what makes the Genelec and Kii systems special. They have not only generally flat response in the frequency domain, but also in the time domain. The phase traces are excellent. If you want imaging, the Genelecs "One's" are acoustically a point source. The imaging is exceptional. If you look at the specifications, they show the window for how the speakers behave off axis. It is substantially better than traditional boxes with horrid off axis response. The coaxial drivers work exceptionally well.

 

Coaxial drivers + DSP in excellent hands is a great thing. Its the way to get crisp passbands, eliminate the parts of drivers one doesn't want to hear, and to correct/remove driver signatures that are unwanted. My Fulcrum FA22ac PA speakers use the same technology - B&C coaxial drivers + DSP from an acknowledged expert. On the PA boxes you can clearly distinguish reverb tails, and "depth" cues in recorded music. They are effectively VERY loud studio monitors. They sound every bit as good as the Genelecs on fussy music. They don't play as deep. The tweeter is not quite as smooth. But they "feel" fantastic. Getting the time domain right is important. Great time domain performance + smooth and wide off axis response translates into exceptional imaging.

 

The work of Floyd O'Toole and the team at JBL on perception of audio clearly shows that humans prefer about the same things. Professional listeners are more discriminating, but the best studio speakers and the best audio speakers are the same thing - it isn't the use that matters, its the performance. Their work also shows that the best response is not flat. It is a smoothly descending line with with bass starting about 10db above where 20khz ends. This is all formal academic, published work. It makes sense given the Fletcher-Munson loudness curves. They have done similar work to find headphone curves. In the Harmann line, this work is reflected in many of their products.

[elif]

A good friend made a pair of Linkwitz LX521s, which are full range dipoles with cone drivers. Minimum amplifier power is 8 x 60 W, crossovers and equalization by a miniDSP. I was surprised by how good they sounded, very detailed and focused. He had them on his back porch inside the pool cage. Apparently, they were deemed unsuitable for the inside decor, but out by the pool was okay. Maybe she was onto something, though I think they look fantastic.

 

 

In her defense, she had put up with another of his projects, a pair of Linkwitz Plutos with subs. His Plutos looked like PVC plumbing with exposed drivers (pretty much what they were). They sounded great too.

 

 

To my SO, I mentioned replacing our 90 lb PSBs with a pair of LXminis. So far, no joy.

[Dave Bryce]

[My Fulcrum FA22ac PA speakers use the same technology - B&C coaxial drivers + DSP from an acknowledged expert.

Dave Gunness. Smart man. I worked with him on the PreSonus Sceptres. The brother is a wizard with FIR tech.

 

dB

[Stephen Fortner]

More than a few mastering engineers use B&W home hi-fi speakers as primary monitors. I have a pair of Wharfedale Mach 7 (from back when they were a high-end brand) that I sometimes use as midfields, or just for listening enjoyment, powered by a Sunfire amp. High end hi-fi is an interesting space. There's a lot of innovation and beautiful design but also a lot of what an industry colleague (who designs the stuff as well as pro audio gear) called "voodoo mysticism bullshit."

 

A friend who collects and flips vintage hi-fi gear has a pair of Snell type A. Amazing when you feed them enough power, and by enough power, I mean that each is bi-amplified from its own Bryston 4B. Absolute beasts.