Swiss Army Knife Gigger's Synths - 2020

[ElmerJFudd]

Nice digging, Scott. There seems to be a lot under the hood from the common hardware Roland uses for this instrument. It"s a shame they aren"t historically great about firmware updates - the b and the 730 was a nice surprise. Hopefully the line has some life in it yet.

[AnotherScott]

Another to consider for your list: Korg PA1000 (or even PA700 which I haven't played, but has a lesser action and no aftertouch, but is otherwise the same in the respects listed here). It doesn't meet every one of your criteria, but it comes as close as most of the others. ;-) In order...

 

1. action... decent, not wonderful. Only 61 keys. Has aftertouch, though.

 

2. engines... mostly sampled but includes drawbar engine, and full set of synth editing parameters even though the waveforms are samples.

 

3. 4-way split/layer (3 sounds above a split point, each with definable key/velocity ranges, and a 4th sound below). Some nice performance enhancements here... easy to get to on-screen voume sliders for your 4 sounds, and the front panel octave switch only shifts the octaves of the upper sounds (e.g. leaving your LH bass unaltered... though if you need to octave shift your lower sound, it's not hard to get to a screen for that either).

 

4. no high trigger

 

5. joystick for pitch/mod

 

6. FX... a weakness, only one of your split/layered sounds can have its own insert effects, though there are also additional shared effects

 

7. 9 drawbars via touchscreen (but it's not a multitouch screen so you can only move one drawbar at a time)

 

8. no aux out, but it has panning... I also confirmed that you can pan the organ and keep its rotary effect intact, so you can have LH bass out one side and organ with rotary out the other even if you don't put a Vent on it. (Though it's far from a first rate organ+rotary sound.)

 

9. good ease of use in actual performance, though there's some initial stuff to figure out to avoid its arranger stuff

 

10. quick recall, yes... touchscreen sound selection for both individual sounds and combinations, and you can also assemble set lists

 

11. about 1 GB for user samples

 

12. 23.7 lbs

 

13. MIDI integration is a mix. The 4 sounds that can make up a split/layer combination can be either internal or external (with specified Program Changes), but they are fixed... above the split point, you can only send on channels 1, 2, and 3; below the split point, only 4. It has 1/4" audio inputs (nicely with a dedicated front panel volume control). The onscreen drawbars do NOT send standard MIDI CC... they appear to send a 3 byte sequence: two NRPN CCs (LSB and MSB) and then a CC #6 (with a value). I don't know how easily translatable that is.

 

Plus it does have those arranger functions, if a generated backing track could be useful (it can also play MIDI sequences). Also, built-in speakers (good enough for solo/duo cocktail hours and such), vocal processor for your voice, the ability to display lyrics on its screen, and other nifty tricks. I know, it's your list, but some of these things can be very useful, and might matter more to someone than the high trigger point, for example.

 

Oh, another nice feature (also not on the PA700) is that the touchscreen lifts and tilts. That helps readability if using it outdoors or on a second tier.

[ElmerJFudd]

Probably Genos and PA4x check some boxes too but paying for the arranger IP at $5999.99 and $4199.99 is getting a bit out of hand. PA1000 is half that so, worth a play.

[AnotherScott]

Here's a chart, based on your wish list and a bit more. It doesn't capture all the subtle differences in some of the features (or list some other significant differentiating features), and there are a few things I'm not 100% certain about, but maybe you and some other folks will find it useful...

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fr9cObRaep37A9Y1PZtRkVWxKKDsXUGPk9ubfhYgoSk/edit?usp=sharing

[ElmerJFudd]

Excellent research, Scott!

[psionic11]

Here's a chart, based on your wish list and a bit more. It doesn't capture all the subtle differences in some of the features (or list some other significant differentiating features), and there are a few things I'm not 100% certain about, but maybe you and some other folks will find it useful...

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fr9cObRaep37A9Y1PZtRkVWxKKDsXUGPk9ubfhYgoSk/edit?usp=sharing

 

Great compilation there, Scott. Very handy having a comparison chart. One suggestion for you that I like to do with my spreadsheets: freeze the main header column or row with the labels. This way the other data portions can be scrolled, while keeping the labels in view so the user doesn't have to go back, thinking, "ok this cell says 'yes' but yes for what?" In your case this would be View => Freeze => column A.

[psionic11]

Here's a few minor additions / corrections to the Kronos features, if you want. Just me being a fanboi

 

Engines: samples/sampler, organ, VA, FM

 

# parts with own effects : 12+ (organ and EP have own FX)

 

iPad/VST integrationâ¦

â¦audio in: USB, line

 

Trigger pads: 8 virtual onscreen*

* pads can trigger notes, chords, or samples

* Korg NanoPad is plug and play

* I have 2 extra NPs if anyone wants

* can use FCB1010 to trigger pads (prog rock style)

 

Backing tracks

â¦algorithmic accompaniment: KARMA, drum track

[psionic11]

Finally, for around $700, the Numa Compact 2X is fairly decent Swiss Army Knife. Probably best to augment it in 2 ways for a cheap, portable, and beer-tolerant solution for those non-safe gigs -- extra MIDI controller to access the 2 additional sound sources, and an iPad for its audio / MIDI in for access to soft synths, virtual pianos, drums, and / or backing tracks.

 

=====================================

 

Fatar Studiologic Numa Compact 2X

 

https://www.studiologic-music.com/products/numa_compact2x/

Manual: https://www.studiologic-music.com/support/numa_compact/

 

 

Action: 88 semi-weighted aftertouch TP/9

Engines: samples, organ (from Numa), VA (from Sledge)

splits/layersâ¦: 4: 2 layer/split + 2 sounds via MIDI

â¦upper and lower organ engine split: yes

â¦total internal (count organs as 1): 2

â¦external: 2

high trigger: yes? (dual switch detection system)

â¦when playing organ+other

â¦over MIDI

Synthâ¦

...pitch/mod controls: yes

â¦editable envelopes, filters, etc.: yes

â¦portamento: no

# parts with own effects: 4

drawbar type: normal

splittable outs for organ or LH bass: yes (headphones as AUX out)

user edits/combinations: yes

â¦recallable without scrolling: yes (sounds chosen via Bank, 4 per)

â¦recallable over MIDI: yes

user samples (keyboard playable): no

weight: 15.6 lbs / 7.1 kg

iPad/VST integrationâ¦

â¦send specified Program Change: yes

â¦sliders send MIDI CC: yes

â¦audio in: USB

 

Additional:

Speakers: 2 x 10w elliptical

Trigger pads: no

Backing tracks

...16 track MIDI sequences: no

â¦algorithmic accompaniment: no

[AnotherScott]

Thanks, psi, I froze the headers on both axes, and updated the Kronos info. I didn't include drum track, though, because it is not algorthmic accompaniment (by which I meant is is generated and changes dynamically based on what you play). I suppose I could have another line for that, but I think it is largely already addressed elsewhere... i.e. the ones that can play 16 channel sequences can do drum tracks, as can anything that has arranger functions or usually (always?) even just arpeggiators (and in this case also KARMA). As for the Numa, it was already in the chart, listed as NC2X. Maybe I'll go back and put in the brands.

[psionic11]

Ah, missed the NC2X. Otherwise, looks good, thx.

 

Also, you mentioned earlier in the post that it was a bit difficult to do splits and layers on the fly. I'm not sure you're aware, but around OS 3.0.2 the Kronos has 2 new easy split / layer buttons on the screen. It's a snap to set up now.

[AnotherScott]

Also, you mentioned earlier in the post that it was a bit difficult to do splits and layers on the fly. I'm not sure you're aware, but around OS 3.0.2 the Kronos has 2 new easy split / layer buttons on the screen. It's a snap to set up now.

Not the way I use them it isn't, unfortunately. I was really looking forward to that update, but it doesn't do what I wanted. Korg's apprach is a designed to simplify programming basic combis, and it's great for that, but doesn't appear to have really been designed to facilitate working with splits live on-the-fly. For example, let's say you use the quick split function to split bass and piano. Now you decide you want to switch your RH sound from piano to Rhodes. Despite Kronos being know for its seamless sound transitions, switching to Rhodes will cut off any held piano notes. But worse, it will also silence your bass line when it makes the switch.

[psionic11]

Also, you mentioned earlier in the post that it was a bit difficult to do splits and layers on the fly. I'm not sure you're aware, but around OS 3.0.2 the Kronos has 2 new easy split / layer buttons on the screen. It's a snap to set up now.

Not the way I use them it isn't, unfortunately. I was really looking forward to that update, but it doesn't do what I wanted. Korg's apprach is a designed to simplify programming basic combis, and it's great for that, but doesn't appear to have really been designed to facilitate working with splits live on-the-fly. For example, let's say you use the quick split function to split bass and piano. Now you decide you want to switch your RH sound from piano to Rhodes. Despite Kronos being know for its seamless sound transitions, switching to Rhodes will cut off any held piano notes. But worse, it will also silence your bass line when it makes the switch.

 

Here's a method to use KARMA to achieve what you want. It won't cut off sustained notes when you switch to a different sound (or group of sounds). Of course, you'll probably want to make a template combi full of likely sounds you'll be switching on and off. But once prepped, it's easy after that to make new splits on-the-fly.

 

[CEB]

Oh heck. The best synth is the one you use.

[AnotherScott]

Here's a method to use KARMA to achieve what you want. It won't cut off sustained notes when you switch to a different sound (or group of sounds). Of course, you'll probably want to make a template combi full of likely sounds you'll be switching on and off. But once prepped, it's easy after that to make new splits on-the-fly.

I watched the video and don't see how it's easy to make new splits on the fly, it looks like all the combinationsneed to be set up in advance. Which is okay, lots of people work that way too. But what I'm talking about is on some of these boards, you can be playing a LH bass, and decide on the fly that you want some other RH sound, and you can actually navigate to any other sound in the board and call it up for your RH, without glitching your LH sound and usually without cutting off any decay from your previous RH sound. Not just from a delection of 5 or 10 or 15 sounds (though you may have arranged fast access to your favorite possibilities), but from any sounds that are in the board (without setting stuff up in advance, which is a way you can do it with many more boards). I believe this is an area where Kronos lags the majority of the other boards on the chart. (Which doesn't necessarily mean it matters to lots of players...)

[AnotherScott]

Oh heck. The best synth is the one you use.

Are you sure you're in the right forum? ;-)

[psionic11]

Here's a method to use KARMA to achieve what you want. It won't cut off sustained notes when you switch to a different sound (or group of sounds). Of course, you'll probably want to make a template combi full of likely sounds you'll be switching on and off. But once prepped, it's easy after that to make new splits on-the-fly.

I watched the video and don't see how it's easy to make new splits on the fly, it looks like all the combinationsneed to be set up in advance. Which is okay, lots of people work that way too. But what I'm talking about is on some of these boards, you can be playing a LH bass, and decide on the fly that you want some other RH sound, and you can actually navigate to any other sound in the board and call it up for your RH, without glitching your LH sound and usually without cutting off any decay from your previous RH sound. Not just from a delection of 5 or 10 or 15 sounds (though you may have arranged fast access to your favorite possibilities), but from any sounds that are in the board (without setting stuff up in advance, which is a way you can do it with many more boards). I believe this is an area where Kronos lags the majority of the other boards on the chart. (Which doesn't necessarily mean it matters to lots of players...)

 

You can still get the results you're looking for. You really don't even need to use KARMA if you don't want to go through that preparation. The only prerequisite is that you be in Combi (or Sequence) mode. If you're already playing a LH / RH split, then most likely you're already in Combi mode. Now if you decide on the fly you want to change the RH sound, no problem. Just touch the very top dropdown arrow in the column of the sound you want to change. This presents you with all the sounds of that particular category. You can then select the sound you want, while still playing the LH part, and you're good to go.

 

If you want a sound that's not in that particular category, then with the window still open, you can simply change the category from the list presented, and then you can see all the sounds of that new category. It's pretty straightforward.

[CEB]

Oh heck. The best synth is the one you use.

Are you sure you're in the right forum? ;-)

 

Probably not. I hate most of my new purchases at first. There is that 1-6 week period where I don"t know what I am doing that kills me. The worst was the first time I was doing sampling on the Kronos and thought I was losing all my work when I shut the thing off. Kronos file management is whacked when you are new to Korg.

 

If the Kronos 2 had a built in Roland SP404 I"d be really happy.

[AnotherScott]

You can still get the results you're looking for...The only prerequisite is that you be in Combi (or Sequence) mode. If you're already playing a LH / RH split, then most likely you're already in Combi mode. Now if you decide on the fly you want to change the RH sound, no problem. Just touch the very top dropdown arrow in the column of the sound you want to change. This presents you with all the sounds of that particular category. You can then select the sound you want, while still playing the LH part, and you're good to go.

 

If you want a sound that's not in that particular category, then with the window still open, you can simply change the category from the list presented, and then you can see all the sounds of that new category. It's pretty straightforward.

Are you sure that works? I really think I tried that, and it didn't work. I think changing my right hand sound not only cut off my previous RH sounds (no seamless transistion), but even cut off my LH sound. Am I misremembering?

[CEB]

I never tried that. I just use multiple combis and increment to the next combi in setlist. I also don"t play shows where you have to pull monkeys out your butt. Everything is in a pre determined order. I play everything from Setlist and everything in Setlist is a combi.

 

I have a Setlist of generic bread and butter sounds I like if I do get a call for a blues or some 'fly by the seat of your pants" gig ... and I bring a organ because I can. I"m in the Midwest and transportation is not an issue.

[psionic11]

You can still get the results you're looking for...The only prerequisite is that you be in Combi (or Sequence) mode. If you're already playing a LH / RH split, then most likely you're already in Combi mode. Now if you decide on the fly you want to change the RH sound, no problem. Just touch the very top dropdown arrow in the column of the sound you want to change. This presents you with all the sounds of that particular category. You can then select the sound you want, while still playing the LH part, and you're good to go.

 

If you want a sound that's not in that particular category, then with the window still open, you can simply change the category from the list presented, and then you can see all the sounds of that new category. It's pretty straightforward.

Are you sure that works? I really think I tried that, and it didn't work. I think changing my right hand sound not only cut off my previous RH sounds (no seamless transistion), but even cut off my LH sound. Am I misremembering?

 

Yes, I test the methods I suggest before I post them. The LH synth bass was sustaining while the RH brass sustained, which kept sustaining while I changed the RH to strings. So three sustaining sounds while only 2 timbres were on MIDI channel 1.

[AnotherScott]

I just use multiple combis and increment to the next combi in setlist. I also don"t play shows where you have to pull monkeys out your butt. Everything is in a pre determined order. I play everything from Setlist and everything in Setlist is a combi.

Yup, not everyone works the same way or has the same needs, and lots of boards that work perfectly for one person may not be ideal for someone else.

 

I'm going to copy something from an old thread here:

My wedding band has a repertoire of literally hundreds of songs. I have no desire to program patches for all of them. 90% of them are dfferent combinations of the same 20 or so sounds. As long as I can grab those sounds when and where I want them, I'm all set, without any prep time. And I can do it on any of at least a half dozen boards (or board-pairs) I own, without having to re-program hundreds of songs if I have some reason to change boards. And as long as a board can do these things, I can change to a new board if I want, without having to reprogram hundreds of songs again.

And expanding on that, the weddings don't all have the same songs, much less the same song order. So many variables... Whatever category you can think of (country, disco, a particular decade, motown, standards, whatever), some folks want us to be heavy on it, some folks want us to avoid it. We play different songs depending on whether they hired us with a brass section or how many singers they wanted. Then they have their special request songs that we may have had to learn for them. Then there are the times we have subs and have to work around what they know or are best at. And the set lengths are all over the place, because wedding schedules can be all over the place. You get the idea.

 

Again from the old thread...

So here's a sample scenario for the kind of thing I'm talking about. You've got a string pad under your left hand, organ on the right. You're coming up to a part of the song where you want to hold the pad, but you want to switch the organ to piano. How do you switch just the right hand sound, without switching the left? And for bonus points, not cut off your held string sound when you make the switch? And for more bonus points, quickly make the piano louder if you need to, without affecting the volume of your strings? And for even more bonus points, shift the piano up (or down) an octave part way through playing your piano part (since {on a Kronos 61} you've only got about 3 octaves' worth of keys available for your piano)? Even if you set up your string+piano and string+organ splits ahead of time and saved them as Combis, I don't think you can do this. And if this was a song that someone called out on the spur of the moment and you hadn't set up the Combis in advance, it would be even harder to get anywhere close to being able to do this, right?

 

Now, if you have two boards, ALL of this is a cinch. String pad on one board, switch from organ to piano on the other. You automatically have no sound cutting out, independent volume controls, plenty of keys for each part. But if you're trying to do this on one board {some boards} will let you do this reasonably well. Most boards do not.

Not everyone needs to do this, I know. But this is an example of something which I personally find valuable that wasn't in Elmer's initial list oif potential swiss army knife boards... being able to treat the left and right sides of a single board practically as if they were two separate boards. Usually the best answer for this kind of scenario is to use two boards. ;-) But there are times where the benefits of a single board are significant, some combination of things like small stage space, difficult load-in, short setup time, traveling via public transportation, whatever. But again, people will have different needs.

[AnotherScott]

Yes, I test the methods I suggest before I post them. The LH synth bass was sustaining while the RH brass sustained, which kept sustaining while I changed the RH to strings. So three sustaining sounds while only 2 timbres were on MIDI channel 1.

Thanks for the confirmation. I'll have to try this again, maybe I was doing something wrong.

[psionic11]

So here's a sample scenario for the kind of thing I'm talking about. You've got a string pad under your left hand, organ on the right. You're coming up to a part of the song where you want to hold the pad, but you want to switch the organ to piano. How do you switch just the right hand sound, without switching the left? And for bonus points, not cut off your held string sound when you make the switch? And for more bonus points, quickly make the piano louder if you need to, without affecting the volume of your strings? And for even more bonus points, shift the piano up (or down) an octave part way through playing your piano part (since {on a Kronos 61} you've only got about 3 octaves' worth of keys available for your piano)? Even if you set up your string+piano and string+organ splits ahead of time and saved them as Combis, I don't think you can do this. And if this was a song that someone called out on the spur of the moment and you hadn't set up the Combis in advance, it would be even harder to get anywhere close to being able to do this, right?

 

Now, if you have two boards, ALL of this is a cinch. String pad on one board, switch from organ to piano on the other. You automatically have no sound cutting out, independent volume controls, plenty of keys for each part. But if you're trying to do this on one board {some boards} will let you do this reasonably well. Most boards do not.

Not everyone needs to do this, I know. But this is an example of something which I personally find valuable that wasn't in Elmer's initial list oif potential swiss army knife boards... being able to treat the left and right sides of a single board practically as if they were two separate boards. Usually the best answer for this kind of scenario is to use two boards. ;-) But there are times where the benefits of a single board are significant, some combination of things like small stage space, difficult load-in, short setup time, traveling via public transportation, whatever. But again, people will have different needs.

 

Those on the fly sound switch scenarios are all possible on the Kronos using the method I described above. And including while sustaining. You can edit octaves, levels, FX while playing. The bonus is that by doing this in the context of a Combi that already has keyboard zones set is that you preserve those zones, and their FX chains, while switching sounds. Level adjustment is easy â just use the appropriate slider. Octave switching requires tabbing over to the Timbre /Pitch page, highlighting the part"s transpose box, then typing in +12 enter. Alternatively, you can use a SW to change octaves, or a MIDI foot switch, and probably KARMA.

 

There is often more than one way to get a task done on the Kronos, which I believe is a testament to its powerful flexibility. I just got a K2500RS, but it seems to me VAST is also powerful and flexible. The Stage 2 is less so, but the most important parameters to a live performer have been thoughtfully made very accessible. I could sell off all my studio gear but keep just the Stage 2 and the Kronos and still be very satisfied. Probably explains why I"m on them 90% of the time while neglecting a dozen others.

[AnotherScott]

You can still get the results you're looking for...The only prerequisite is that you be in Combi (or Sequence) mode. If you're already playing a LH / RH split, then most likely you're already in Combi mode. Now if you decide on the fly you want to change the RH sound, no problem. Just touch the very top dropdown arrow in the column of the sound you want to change. This presents you with all the sounds of that particular category. You can then select the sound you want, while still playing the LH part, and you're good to go.

 

If you want a sound that's not in that particular category, then with the window still open, you can simply change the category from the list presented, and then you can see all the sounds of that new category. It's pretty straightforward.

Are you sure that works? I really think I tried that, and it didn't work. I think changing my right hand sound not only cut off my previous RH sounds (no seamless transistion), but even cut off my LH sound. Am I misremembering?

 

Yes, I test the methods I suggest before I post them. The LH synth bass was sustaining while the RH brass sustained, which kept sustaining while I changed the RH to strings. So three sustaining sounds while only 2 timbres were on MIDI channel 1.

Yup, I had a chance to try it... it was on the "Quick Split" screen where changing a right hand sound would cut off everthing (even your left hand sound), but editing from the Combi page as you describe works fine. The only place it really fall short in my scenario, then, is there being no way to quickly shift an octave of one part on the fly (which is very useful especially when splitting a 61).

 

"Tabbing over to the Timbre /Pitch page, highlighting the part"s transpose box, then typing in +12 enter" isn't so convenient when you're playing LH bass and in the middle of a song you realize you're going to need to go higher or lower than what's available in the 3-ish octaves assigned to your right hand sound. Sometimes there is a front panel octave button that can just switch your right hand part up or down an octave (or more), as on the Roland VR09/VR730, or the Korg PA700/PA1000, i.e. it's just a single click of a button to change the right hand sound an octave either way. Two clicks on the Dexibell J7 (Octave button, Up arrow), a screen tap and moving a dial one notch on the Casio MZ-X500. If it's the left hand part you have to octave shift, Casio is just as easy, the Dexibell and Rolands require minimal additional steps (i.e. two extra clicks to move the cursor from upper sound to lower sound), the Korgs are slightly more involved (a button, up to 3 screen taps, then move the dial a notch... though at least the screen taps are into really big buttons, and since it remembers where you've been, a susbequent adjustment eliminates two of the three screen taps).

 

Since Kronos screens can list 32 Programs on the screen at once, I think I'd be more inclined to simply have alternate Programs to invoke to shift octaves. For example, instead of a single piano program to recall for my RH sound, I might have the three copies for "piano" "piano UP octave" and "piano DOWN octave". That would make it easier to make those switches. Not as nice as being able to instantly switch any sound on the fly with no advance preparation, but could be a useful approach if you set up a bunch of your favorite sounds that way.

 

p.s. for those following, I've made a lot of updates to the spreadsheet at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fr9cObRaep37A9Y1PZtRkVWxKKDsXUGPk9ubfhYgoSk/edit?usp=sharing

[AnotherScott]

You can still get the results you're looking for...The only prerequisite is that you be in Combi (or Sequence) mode. If you're already playing a LH / RH split, then most likely you're already in Combi mode. Now if you decide on the fly you want to change the RH sound, no problem. Just touch the very top dropdown arrow in the column of the sound you want to change. This presents you with all the sounds of that particular category. You can then select the sound you want, while still playing the LH part, and you're good to go.

 

If you want a sound that's not in that particular category, then with the window still open, you can simply change the category from the list presented, and then you can see all the sounds of that new category. It's pretty straightforward.

Are you sure that works? I really think I tried that, and it didn't work. I think changing my right hand sound not only cut off my previous RH sounds (no seamless transistion), but even cut off my LH sound. Am I misremembering?

 

Yes, I test the methods I suggest before I post them. The LH synth bass was sustaining while the RH brass sustained, which kept sustaining while I changed the RH to strings. So three sustaining sounds while only 2 timbres were on MIDI channel 1.

Yup, I had a chance to try it... it was on the "Quick Split" screen where changing a right hand sound would cut off everthing (even your left hand sound), but editing from the Combi page as you describe works fine. The only place it really fall short in my scenario, then, is there being no way to quickly shift an octave of one part on the fly (which is very useful especially when splitting a 61).

I think there's another limitation with this... If you change your right hand sound this way, the only way it works without cutting off your sound is if you bring in the new sound without its effect. So if you use this method to change RH sounds at whim while keeping your LH bass going, you can't have effects on your RH sounds. Or did I miss something?

[miden]

I'd like to see aftertouch in the list tbh. It's amazing the number of synths that do not include this simple strip of contacts!