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Facebook are being wankers?


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I am not surprised by this.

It probably is ASCAP, BMI and there is some other pest organization out there now.

 

Facebook has LOTS of money. There are LOTS of cover tunes getting played on live streams. ASCAP and BMI both have lots of lawyers.

This is the simplest way to make those lawyers go away.

 

No gigs now but we knew some of the owners of music venues in our area and ASCAP or BMI would appear on the regular and want a chunk of money.

 

If the money did go to the songwriters who wrote the songs that got played in their venues, I am fine with that. Trouble is, who kept track of that? And, which songs still have copyright protection, which are now now public domain?

And, what if they only hire bands that play original songs (there are a couple of clubs here who have that policy).

 

If we play a dead person's song (and we do that often), who gets paid for that?

 

If if was managed in some legitimate fashion I would have no problem with it being enforced and artists getting compensation for their creations being enjoyed. That would be great.

 

When you are talking about Facebook vs ASCAP, I wish them both a slow, painful death - perhaps listening to a record of Wayne Newton singing Danke Shoen over and over until their tiny, evil brains turn into goo and pour out of their ears.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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I'm really more concerned about non-livestreamed recordings. You can usually post a link and have people go to a YouTube livestream if you have to. But with the amount of money Facebook has from mining data from their users and selling it, they should be able to set up some sort of a flat fee agreement with ASCAP and BMI. That said, it was really nice to be able to livestream a performance from an international festival I was playing folk music at, for example, to family that couldn't make it. Facebook is already horrible at identifying copyrighted material. It LOVES to flag eastern European folk music for some bizarre reason. Um, some of this stuff has been out for 200 years now guys!

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And yes, it's all in their new updated terms of service.

 

General new TOS: https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms/preview

Music Guidlines: https://www.facebook.com/legal/music_guidelines

 

Music Guidelines

These supplemental terms apply if you post or share any videos or other content containing music on any Facebook Products.

You are responsible for the content you post

 

People use our Products to share content with their family and friends. Keep in mind you remain solely responsible for the content that you post, including any music that features in that content. Nothing in these terms constitutes any authorization by us with respect to any use of music on any of our Products.

 

Use of music for commercial or non-personal purposes in particular is prohibited unless you have obtained appropriate licenses.

You may not use videos on our Products to create a music listening experience

We want you to be able to enjoy videos posted by family and friends. However, if you use videos on our Products to create a music listening experience for yourself or for others, your videos will be blocked and your page, profile or group may be deleted. This includes Live.

Unauthorized content may be removed

 

If you post content that contains music owned by someone else, your content may be blocked, or may be reviewed by the applicable rights owner and removed if your use of that music is not properly authorized.

You may not be able to post or access videos containing music in every country of the world

 

We want you to be able to share videos with your family and friends wherever they are, but any music in your video, if it is allowed at all, may not be available in all countries of the world.

 

 

How about these geniuses make a blanket license available for, say, $100/year for musicians who want to livestream to buy? The old saved livestreams and finished videos could be left online, but new livestreams could only be done if you have a license?

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

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I've never liked facebook. But I understand, they were probably getting pressure from folks not getting royalities, and decided it was easier to just prohibit the usage than try to collect and distribute royalties or confirm that the poster had the appropriate licensing.

 

When a band plays cover material at a club, the club has an arrangement by which they pay fees to BMI/ASCAP (a flawed arrangement but that's a whole other conversation). When the same band during covid livestreams their performance from their basement, BMI/ASCAP get nothing.

 

Youtube has a whole system in place to identify copyrighted work and allow copyright holders to make claims, and distribute video monetization accordingly. Since youtube also makes money on these videos, they had an incentive to work this out. If facebook can find a way to make money on it, they'll probably figure out some way to do it eventually as well. But right now, they probably just had to shut down their legal exposure.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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You can see where this goes. Pretty soon FB band pages wont have any media with audio music on them which makes the page worthless for promoting the band. Then Godaddy gets sued for the band webpages it hosts. And on and on. No music allowed on the internet except for youtube and spotify. You better learn to write songs and play live.

FunMachine.

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You can see where this goes. Pretty soon FB band pages wont have any media with audio music on them which makes the page worthless for promoting the band.

I suspect you'll still be able to post your youtube videos on your FB pages, because youtube clears the rights issues.

 

People following this thread may also be interested in this, if you missed it:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3039858/ot-how-difficult-is-it-to-license-a-cover-song-for-youtube

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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You can see where this goes. Pretty soon FB band pages wont have any media with audio music on them which makes the page worthless for promoting the band.

It might have something to do with this.

 

https://techcrunch.com/2020/07/14/facebook-to-launch-officially-licensed-music-videos-in-the-u-s-next-month/

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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Some I've read said this is an old policy that they never did anything about. I see a number of possible reason FB is doing this now. One the army of music licensing bot scouring the internet especially YouTube for copyright violations. Want more on that topic just look at about every fourth video from Rick Beato. Next is cost, FB was designed to mainly be a text graphic exchange site and now with all this streaming video it's chewing up a lot of bandwidth and storage for FB. Then a lot of the livestreams are using software that streams to Youtube, FB, IG, and others all at the same time. So FB doesn't like having to share content. I know many of the streams I watch if it is on Youtube and FB I will watch it on YouTube the audio is better. Last FB recently announced it's going back to its roots by starting a new alternate FB for college students only. Some may not know or remember FB started as a college student only site and you could only get an account by referral from another member.

 

Plus this new FB interface SUCKs. At appears FB is either getting cheap trying to use one interface for both mobile devices and computers, instead of an interface for computers and a interface for mobile devices. Or they feel the users they really want are the ones who live on mobile devices.

 

Bottom line there's some crap going on inside FB headquarters and it don't look good for musicians and for people that don't fit into the demographic FB wants as its users.

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You can see where this goes. Pretty soon FB band pages wont have any media with audio music on them which makes the page worthless for promoting the band.

I suspect you'll still be able to post your youtube videos on your FB pages, because youtube clears the rights issues.

 

People following this thread may also be interested in this, if you missed it:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3039858/ot-how-difficult-is-it-to-license-a-cover-song-for-youtube

I've been posting live gig videos of covers on YouTube since 2014 and I've never had any blocked. I've also linked some of my YouTube videos to my Facebook page and so far have not had any problems; we'll see what happens on October 1st.

 

I haven't paid any attention as to whether or not any of my YouTube videos have been monetized or not by the original artists and/or copyright owners. If they have been and they're making money for themselves, more power to 'em.

 

Of course, the bands I play with are mediocre at best, play mainly dives, and mainly do old, often obscure, blues and soul tunes, so it's highly doubtful that any serious money could ever be made from my gig videos anyway.

 

I would add that because I'm just a weekend warrior who doesn't play music for a living, it's no big deal for me if any of my YouTube videos ever get blocked or even if my channel gets taken down. It's not like my YouTube music channel has thousands subscribers.

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They're not without their issues, but the presence of performing rights orgs like ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC is overall a good thing for artists IMO. As far as streaming, there are better options anyway like YouTube and Twitch, which you can then embed in Facebook if you want. Not being able to stream through Facebook shouldn't prevent you from streaming on Facebook if that's what you want to do, just will require some extra steps.
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But how would that work for Royalies going to the owner of the rights to a specific song?

 

ASCAP has never been worried about paying out royalties, only collecting. What bothers me is this blanket statement restricts all music, even songs that are no longer under copywrite. With Covid still going strong many, many churches are doing Facebook church. Are they going to get kicked off for singing a 100 year old hymn?

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"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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But how would that work for Royalies going to the owner of the rights to a specific song?

 

ASCAP has never been worried about paying out royalties, only collecting. What bothers me is this blanket statement restricts all music, even songs that are no longer under copywrite. With Covid still going strong many, many churches are doing Facebook church. Are they going to get kicked off for singing a 100 year old hymn?

 

 

ASCAP and BMI have failed when they did nothing when record companies started leasing entire catalogs of music to streaming services. Everyone is making money expect the actual creators who went from getting a few cents per use to getting a few thousandths of a cent per use.

 

As for churches as I've said in past I work in media for a large church for many years. We were known for a band and choir and the name artists that would sit in. Everything was fine from a copyright point of view until we started streaming church services. For the most part our wednesday and sunday services we mainly did a lot of our own music and some popular tunes so they left us alone. But when we would have a big holiday event or church special event the copyright people would swoop down and go for the throat. I think it was for a Christmas show one of the guest artists wanted to do a song by a big songwriter who had a reputation of going after everyone. So we contacted the songwriters people said it was for a church holiday event that would be streamed and asked permission to use the song. Songwriter wanted I thing $2000 for single use of the song, no DVD use if we sell the show later to church members. That was outrageous so we contacted the guest artist and told her to prepare an alternate song in case we can't work something out. Lucky for the church one of the member was in the biz of selling use rights to songs so we got him involved. Long story-short it took almost up to show time to negotiated the songwriters down to $300 for single use of song for the stream. We told the guest artist they could do the song, but if we do a DVD it will have to be edited out and they were fine with that. So even churches once you stream all the rules change.

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2k to use someones song for a Christmas church service? Somebody ought to flip over a few tables over that.

 

Because it was to be live streamed that's why they wanted money. But we eventually got them down to $300.

 

As soon as you stream something all the rules change.

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This is one of those social-media fire alarms that always turns out to be not quite what people think.

 

This was posted by a friend of mine, quoting Kevin Breuner, the SVP of marketing at CD Baby:

 

Musicians, artists, bands, please read:

 

There is so much misinformation and misleading headlines about Facebook"s 'listening experiences' change happening Oct 1st, so I wanted to help clarify.

 

These policies have been in place since 2018, but what they are trying to do is clarify what they mean by a 'listening experience.' Basically, Facebook does not want users to try and turn the platform into Spotify or YouTube Music, where you open it up and push play, and then go about your business. They want content where people are actively engaged, watching, commenting, and sharing.

 

For example:

 

1. You cannot post an art track video of your song (album art image with music playing).

 

2. You cannot post a video with a static image and the music playing (like a peaceful nature image with music). It"s the same concept as an art track, but worth clarifying.

 

So, your video MUST have visual motion like your official music video.

 

However!

 

3. You cannot string multiple music videos together (even if they have motion) to create a playlist type experience.

 

Also:

 

4. You cannot start a FB livestream and just stream your music through it like it"s Spotify.

 

It"s a social platform and they want to keep it social.

 

This does not impact you going live to play music to your fans. Facebook has been launching new tools (like Facebook Stars) to make that experience even more beneficial to artists (your fans can tip you during a live stream). They"ve also make some great improvements to the comment section during a live stream that make it more fun and interactive as a fan.

 

With all that said, Facebook"s copyright system doesn"t work the same way as YouTube"s system, and that"s where more confusion happens. If you have a livestream, and you use recorded music you don"t have rights to, your stream may get pulled. This can impact DJs who are often using samples and recordings that they don"t have clearance to use. This can happen on YouTube as well, but their systems are very different, and many artists are assuming what works on YouTube will work on Facebook and that"s just false.

 

I hope that helps. If you"re experiencing something different, I"d love to hear about it in the comments.

 

UPDATE: I've been asked many times about the FB TOS and how it specifically calls out "listening experiences" and how that means live streams. NO!

 

It clearly states they don't want you taking copyrighted material like music OR podcasts and using them to create a "listening experience." That means if you want to be a playlist curator, go to Spotify, this platform is not for you. If you want to be a podcast curator, this platform is not for you.

 

Facebook is not a platform you have running in the background to listen to stuff while you work or clean the house.

 

An artist livestream is an interactive social event. Sure you could turn on a livestream and have it playing in the background, but that's not the normal use case.

 

If you want to make content people enjoy and engage with on platform (like your livestream to your fans) this is a great spot to do it!

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This is one of those social-media fire alarms that always turns out to be not quite what people think.
Thank you, that was very helpful to read. This means I can continue to dislike and avoid Facebook for other reasons!

 

Also, insomnia is just my favorite thing right now.

Samuel B. Lupowitz

Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.

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Interesting.

 

Facebook is only really interested in one thing, monetising activity within.

 

No mobile activity within the App = limited incoming finance = we (Facebook owners) do not want it.

 

Cash is King.

 

There is a saying, ........ You Get What You Pay For.

Col

 

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This is one of those social-media fire alarms that always turns out to be not quite what people think.

 

This was posted by a friend of mine, quoting Kevin Breuner, the SVP of marketing at CD Baby:

This is great but for one problem. I've seen numerous anecdotal reports by musician friends lately saying Facebook has blocked or muted posts by them of them playing their own music, or posted a video where music was playing in the background (incidental) and was forced to take it down. :idk:

 

P.S. Here's the FB link to Breuner's original post. Comments are public, some post about differing experiences.

 

https://www.facebook.com/kbreuner/posts/10220636175247894

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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-Mike Martin

 

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The Big Picture Photography Forum on Music Player Network

 

The opinions I post here are my own and do not represent the company I work for.

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Based on what Math and Mike posted, my reading is that this is a crackdown on 'listening parties", where someone curates a playlist and just streams it over Facebook.

 

It doesn"t specifically address whether my videoed cover of a famous song can stay. As someone above pointed out, Facebook would have to possess the technology to identify the source song even of a cover like YouTube does.

 

Then again maybe I"m just naive.

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Despite the clarification, a friend of mine Rubén Valtierra - keyboardist for Weird Al and his own original bands has claimed that he's been taken down for playing his own music so who knows what is really going on.

-Mike Martin

 

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Mike Martin Photography Instagram Facebook

The Big Picture Photography Forum on Music Player Network

 

The opinions I post here are my own and do not represent the company I work for.

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