Roland DP-10 in Continuous mode doesn't work with Montage 8

[Imagine]

I just purchased a Roland DP-10 sustain pedal. I like the feel of that particular pedal. The switch on the pedal is set to Continuous and I have it plugged into the Montage Sustain input.

 

When I play piano for instance, I can't get the sustain to work. If I put the DP-10 to Switch, the piano will sustain, but I'm only getting an On/Off in Pro Tools instead of Continuous.

 

How do I get the sustain to work with the Montage when the DP-10 is set to Continuous?

 

Thanks!

[pawelsz]

You can rewire it or make an adapter

 

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/442765/P15/

[Markyboard]

From the reference manual p.165:

 

Sustain Pedal (Footswitch Sustain Pedal Select)

Selects the Footswitch type connected to the FOOT SWITCH [sUSTAIN] jack on the rear panel.

 

⢠When the FC3 or FC3A is used:When you connect an optional FC3 or FC3A (equipped with the half-damper feature) for producing the special 'half-damper' effect (as on a real acoustic piano), set this parameter to 'FC3A (Half on).' If you don"t need the half-damper feature or want to disable it while still using an FC3 or FC3A, set this parameter to 'FC3A (Half off).'

 

⢠When the FC4, FC4A, or FC5 is used:Select 'FC4A/FC5.' The FC4, FC4A, and FC5 are not equipped with the half-damper feature.

 

Settings:FC3A (Half On), FC3A (Half Off), FC4A/FC5NOTE

 

Note that this setting is not necessary when controlling the half-damper feature via Control Change messages from an external MIDI device to the instrument

 

Your DP-10 pedal in continuous mode is functionally the same as an FC3/FC3A pedal.

 

Edit: Polarity should be the same as your Kawai MP11SE (wiper to Ring) so no need to switch it on the pedal.

[Imagine]

You can rewire it or make an adapter

 

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/442765/P15/

 

Thanks pawelsz, I'll look into this.

[Imagine]

From the reference manual p.165:

 

Sustain Pedal (Footswitch Sustain Pedal Select)

Selects the Footswitch type connected to the FOOT SWITCH [sUSTAIN] jack on the rear panel.

 

⢠When the FC3 or FC3A is used:When you connect an optional FC3 or FC3A (equipped with the half-damper feature) for producing the special 'half-damper' effect (as on a real acoustic piano), set this parameter to 'FC3A (Half on).' If you don"t need the half-damper feature or want to disable it while still using an FC3 or FC3A, set this parameter to 'FC3A (Half off).'

 

⢠When the FC4, FC4A, or FC5 is used:Select 'FC4A/FC5.' The FC4, FC4A, and FC5 are not equipped with the half-damper feature.

 

Settings:FC3A (Half On), FC3A (Half Off), FC4A/FC5NOTE

 

Note that this setting is not necessary when controlling the half-damper feature via Control Change messages from an external MIDI device to the instrument

 

Your DP-10 pedal in continuous mode is functionally the same as an FC3/FC3A pedal.

 

Edit: Polarity should be the same as your Kawai MP11SE (wiper to Ring) so no need to switch it on the pedal.

 

 

Markyboard, so if I have the settings as written below, it should work?

 

- DP-10 set to Continuous

 

- Connect the DP-10 to Sustain port on the Montage

 

- Set the Montage to FC3A (Half On)

 

I've tried this and it doesn't work. Am I missing something?

 

Thanks!

[AnotherScott]

Your DP-10 pedal in continuous mode is functionally the same as an FC3/FC3A pedal.

...but wired differently, apparently.

[Markyboard]

 

 

Markyboard, so if I have the settings as written below, it should work?

 

- DP-10 set to Continuous

 

- Connect the DP-10 to Sustain port on the Montage

 

- Set the Montage to FC3A (Half On)

 

I've tried this and it doesn't work. Am I missing something?

 

Thanks!

 

Hmmm... as far as I could tell that should have worked.

 

....but I'm only getting an On/Off in Pro Tools instead of Continuous.

 

Ummm, I missed this small but possibly significant detail. What does Pro Tools have to do with it? Better yet, can you take PT out of it for now and see if you can get the pedal working with the Montage by itself?

[Markyboard]

Btw as part of your troubleshooting you could connect the DP-10 to one of the Foot Controller inputs, assign it to CC64 and see if that works.

[DJkeys]

I dont' see how a damper pedal can be a continuous controller like an expression pedal, even though it appears to have a TRS connector which is what allows half-pedaling. However, it is still basically just an on/off function. It seems that you need an expression pedal like an FC7 or Moog EP3 to get continuous control.

 

-dj

[Markyboard]

Not true DJKeys. Half damper pedals have a pot just like an expression pedal. The physical 'throw' is just much shorter.

[Markyboard]

Your DP-10 pedal in continuous mode is functionally the same as an FC3/FC3A pedal.

...but wired differently, apparently.

 

Good thought Scott but we went through this recently with his Kawai MP11SE and I believe it has the same polarity as Yamaha. If not the DP10 has a polarity switch which the op is familiar with.

[AnotherScott]

I dont' see how a damper pedal can be a continuous controller like an expression pedal, even though it appears to have a TRS connector which is what allows half-pedaling. However, it is still basically just an on/off function.

Markyboard is right, half/continuous damper pedals are not simply on/off, they are essentially the same as an expression pedal except with a differently shaped surface and a spring-back mechanism. (And that third connection--TRS instead of T---is required to allow it to send more than merely two states of on and off.) A continuous damper can potentially be used as an expression pedal with auto-return, if it's wired the same. I've actually used a continous damper pedal as a pitch bend pedal.

[pawelsz]

If we consider the order like

1) wiper of the pot

2) +

3) ground

 

Roland DP-10 half-damper and expression pedals like EV-5 are

1) tip

2) ring

3) sleeve

 

Yamaha FC7 expression pedal is

1) ring

2) tip

3) sleeve

 

Yamaha FC3/FC3A half damper is

1) ring

2) sleeve

3) tip

[AnotherScott]

Great info, pawelsz. So a DP10 is wired just the same as a Roland expression pedal, which is sensible, and likely permits you to use them interchangeably (i.e. if you wanted an "expression" pedal that sprung back). What's a little surprising is, not only does Yamaha not wire their half damper pedal the same way Roland does (even though these companies DO wire their plain on/off sustain pedals the same way), but they don't even wire their half damper and their expression pedals the same way!

[DJkeys]

In some instances, even with Roland gear, it appears that the DP-10 only sends (or the unit only sees) three values, 0, 64 (half), and 127 (full). Not the pedal's fault, but interoperability with different instruments does not appear to be consistent:

 

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2901103/1/roland-dp10-pedal-is-it-actually-continuous.html

 

Roland DP10 is a 'continuous' pedal in theory, able to send range of 0-127 velocity levels for sustain. And it apparently does, when used with FP30 for example. When connected to FP10, and then FP10 via USB MIDI to laptop, only single values 0,64,127 are being transmitted.

 

@pawelsz is likely correct in that the polarity may need to be reversed to be used with the Montage.

 

-dj

[AnotherScott]

Yes, DJKeys, what the board does on the receiving end matters as well. It's interesting that the FP10 and FP30 are programmed to do different things with the signal from the DP10. But the DP10 at least is sending out the full range of an expression pedal... what a board does with those values looks like a different question.

[Imagine]

Here are 3 examples using the DP-10 with the Montage in Pro Tools.

 

 

Top example is with the DP-10 connected to the Sustain port, Montage set to FC3A (Half On), and the DP-10 set to Switch. All you get is On - Off.

 

Middle example is with the DP-10 connected to the Sustain port, Montage set to FC3A (Half On), but the DP-10 set to Continuous. Notice the continuous behavior.

 

Lower example is with the DP-10 connected to the Foot Controller 1 port, Montage set to FC3A (Half On), and the DP-10 is set to Continuous. I can't get 64CC to read anything below 61.

 

Is there any way to fix this?

[Markyboard]

Thank you for the info pawelsz. I am curious where you got it from?

 

 

I think there's more to it so here we go.

 

Here's my opened FC3A pedal which I just performed some measurements on:

 

 

 

As you can see this half damper pedal looks functionally equivalent to an expression pedal- for the most part. But it's not exactly the same because it also has to function as an on/off pedal or more specifically open/close. Regular Yamaha sustain pedals (FC4) are normally closed/shorted between tip/sleeve and open when you engage them (for better or worse ).

 

Interestingly the FC-3A shows an open in the fully non-engaged position between the ring (wiper) and either end leg of the potentiometer (which btw is approx 8.7K)

 

 

As you engage the pedal you soon move past the open. Further pressing down on the pedal results in a simultaneous linear transition from min to max resistance between the wiper/tip and max to min between the wiper and sleeve, or vica versa depending on how the TRS is wired.

 

 

The FC7 and FC3A really look identical. For an expression pedal with a linear pot all that matters is which terminal is connected to the wiper. The other 2 terminals (sleeve and tip) are equivalent so it matters not which end of the resistor gets 5V and which gets ground.

 

But....because this is not an expression pedal and you have that fully open resistance at one end it does matter which resistor leg gets ground and which gets +V. If they're opposite of what Yamaha designs their keyboards for the response will be reversed (but otherwise work).

 

Now if the tip/ring polarity is reversed (i.e. the wiper isn't where the keyboard expects it) the pedal will usually not work at all or works over a very limited range - almost by sheer luck.

 

 

Question for the OP: Is the DP-10 open or showing resistance when disengaged? My assumption that it is equivalent to a FC3A (which works with Yamaha boards) may have been in error.

[Markyboard]

 

Is there any way to fix this?

 

Did you try switching the polarity switch on your pedal? I"m not sure it will function properly as a half sustain but I would expect to see a range of values if the wiper is connected correctly.

[Imagine]

Unless I'm mistaken, the DP-10 doesn't have a polarity switch. The only switch I see is the Switch to Continuous.

[Markyboard]

Oh man, there goes my brain again. Sorry about that and to those I told otherwise. I wouldn"t have been so quick to dismiss this. Can you make or find an adapter? Lot of info here and on line. If not PM me.

[Markyboard]

The Sweetwater site shows the DP10 as 'normally closed' under tech specs. Roland site shows no info in this regard. This is opposite of the FC3a which is normally open. Swapping polarity is not going to change this.

 

If you or someone can confirm this with an ohm meter then it might make sense to pursue an adapter. Otherwise put the money towards an FC3A.

[Markyboard]

You can rewire it or make an adapter

 

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/442765/P15/

 

I just looked at this and I"m surprised it works. Wiper on sleeve? That"s a first.

 

Weird because it"s not how the FC3A is wired.

 

Err...almost forgot I rewired my fc3a to work with my PC3x so it very well have been wired per the above link originally.

[Imagine]

Hi Mark, I just got your PM.

 

So If I solder as shown in the picture below, will that work?

 

Before - After

 

White - Red

Black - White

Red - Black

 

Thanks!

[Markyboard]

Yes, I have no reason to doubt the original poster and either way you won"t harm anything, this being a passive device.

[Imagine]

Great, I'll give it a go and let you know if it works.

 

Thanks again. I appreciate it.

[Markyboard]

Thank you - thought I knew how these things worked.

[Markyboard]

Ooh- one caution, check if the switch function (on/off) still works after your mod. That may help explain why the Yamaha pedal is different since it doesn"t have 2 modes of operation.

[Imagine]

Will do.

[Imagine]

It works. Both Continuous and Switch.

 

Thanks again!