I did a thing. New Yammy YC61

[analogholic]

Too bad it doesn't have aux outputs to be able to use a Vent smoothly with it...but the same goes for the Electro

[The_Star_Guy]

Too bad it doesn't have aux outputs to be able to use a Vent smoothly with it...but the same goes for the Electro

 

Actually, it was relatively normal in the past for the top tier flagship Yamaha products to include separate independently addressable AUX outputs as my Motif ES7 has them. This might be an idea worth mentioning on the Yamaha IDEA scale page, as I also feel that keyboards that use multiple sound engines should also include at least 1 extra addressable output. Very important if Yamaha is designing a YC-73 for release sometime in the near future. That would be extremely useful for both studio and live stage work!

[ElmerJFudd]

Right, but assuming the hardware on the YC61 is final - what can be done via firmware? Can users commit a layer to L or R using a pan function? Or can they run a layers through an effect that allows output to go L or R only?

[mate stubb]

Right, but assuming the hardware on the YC61 is final - what can be done via firmware? Can users commit a layer to L or R using a pan function? Or can they run a layers through an effect that allows output to go L or R only?

 

Only the developers could tell you. Depends on a lot of things, including how it was coded.

[ElmerJFudd]

Right, but assuming the hardware on the YC61 is final - what can be done via firmware? Can users commit a layer to L or R using a pan function? Or can they run a layers through an effect that allows output to go L or R only?

 

Only the developers could tell you. Depends on a lot of things, including how it was coded.

 

Maybe inclusion of an Aux out is possible on a 73/76 key version of this keyboard.

 

 

Question regarding the Vox and other competitors. Does the Vox offer high trigger in the organ section? If so, does it maintain high trigger when layering with other sounds - like piano where you expect trigger at the bottom? How about the electro and the SK1? Do any of them offer an assignable aux out?

[rogs]

Right, but assuming the hardware on the YC61 is final - what can be done via firmware? Can users commit a layer to L or R using a pan function? Or can they run a layers through an effect that allows output to go L or R only?

 

You can direct 2 layers (say organ and piano) one left and one right already .. but doing it is messy!

 

You need to use Effect 12 (Auto pan) and set the rate to 'zero' and the depth to '100%'.....You need to set the rate completely to zero when the signal is in the right place - and if you switch off and on again it resets to the centre position.

And you can't 'store' the pan positions.

 

So it's pretty unusable at present - but the routing exists if Yamaha ever decides to implement it...

[AnotherScott]

It is totally NOT about what tin eared audience members can detect.

 

I sat behind a B-3 and leslie for years and years gigging. Organ is my first instrument.

 

What it actually IS about is having the organ emulation sound good enough to the player to let them stay in the moment.

Related to this, feel can make a big difference. More or less than the sound, I'm not sure, but I just picked up a Nord C1. It's the first time I've played a proper double manual in, well, probably decades. Wow, does that change the experience. The C1 may not provide a state of the art sound these days, but it's the most fun I've had playing organ in a long time. I'll probably post on that separately after some more experimentation with it, I don't want to derail this thread with that.

 

Too bad it doesn't have aux outputs to be able to use a Vent smoothly with it...but the same goes for the Electro

Electro has a dual mono mode where you can send the organ out one siude to a Vent while all other sounds come out the other side.

 

Actually, it was relatively normal in the past for the top tier flagship Yamaha products to include separate independently addressable AUX outputs as my Motif ES7 has them.

Yamaha still does this. Today's equivalent of the Motif ES is the Montage, which likewise has additional assignable outs. But it's a pretty rare feature in the sub-$2k range. Though Kurzweil has it in the PC4, and Roland has it in the FA. Korg used to have it in their moderately priced TR, but its successors in the midrange workstation spot (M50, Krome) have not had it. I'm not sure Yamaha ever had it on any non-flagship boards, though.

 

Question regarding the Vox and other competitors. Does the Vox offer high trigger in the organ section? If so, does it maintain high trigger when layering with other sounds - like piano where you expect trigger at the bottom? How about the electro and the SK1? Do any of them offer an assignable aux out?

Those three boards all offer high trigger. None offer an assignable out per se, however, as mentioned above, the Electro 6 can treat its stereo out as a dual mono with an organ split, while the Hammond SK1 with an optional adapter can send 1/4" organ separately out of its multipin (Leslie) connector, wheil sending everything else in stereo out of its standard L/R connectors.

 

As for triggering an organ from the high point layered with some other sound triggered from the low, yes, the Vox does this. I don't know about the SK1 or the Electro, but some other boards that I know that can do this are the Nord Stage 3 and the Dexibell J7.

[ElmerJFudd]

Question regarding the Vox and other competitors. Does the Vox offer high trigger in the organ section? If so, does it maintain high trigger when layering with other sounds - like piano where you expect trigger at the bottom? How about the electro and the SK1? Do any of them offer an assignable aux out?

Those three boards all offer high trigger. None offer an assignable out per se, however, as mentioned above, the Electro 6 can treat its stereo out as a dual mono with an organ split, while the Hammond SK1 with an optional adapter can send 1/4" organ separately out of its multipin (Leslie) connector, wheil sending everything else in stereo out of its standard L/R connectors.

 

As for triggering an organ from the high point layered with some other sound triggered from the low, yes, the Vox does this. I don't know about the SK1 or the Electro, but some other boards that I know that can do this are the Nord Stage 3 and the Dexibell J7.

 

Does it have to be the Stage 3 to offer this feature (different trigger point from different split or layer)? It wasn"t possible on the 2 or 2.5?

 

And I"m guessing the Kurzweil Artis 7 also can"t do high and low trigger per layer or split.

[AnotherScott]

Does it have to be the Stage 3 to offer this feature (different trigger point from different split or layer)? It wasn"t possible on the 2 or 2.5?

I'm guessing that all the Nord Stage models have always worked this way, as I have never heard it mentioned as a differentiating feature. However the 3 is the only one I have here, you'd have to find someone with an older one to confirm that it behaves the same way.

 

And I"m guessing the Kurzweil Artis 7 also can"t do high and low trigger per layer or split.

I supsect that it can, but I don't want to swear to it, and I don't have it set up at the moment to test.

[ElmerJFudd]

Needless to say the 'Swiss Army Kniffe' gigging board is always an elusive target when Factoring in what"s important to most people. Especially when meeting a price point. I like that Yamaha included the usb audio/midi interface and can mix your MainStage or iPad what have you into the outs.

 

Last question for Scott today. Does the Stage 3 also transmit high trigger point with the split/layer you"ve assigned the organ engine to?

 

I lied, one more. Did you open your brand spanking new Stage 3 and swap out the springs?

[niacin]

What it actually IS about is having the organ emulation sound good enough to the player to let them stay in the moment.

 

Yes. This is where I'm at. I'm an organist first and a pianist distant second. For a couple of years now my pop rig has been Hammond SK1 on top of a Korg Vox Continental 73, and this year I picked up a YC61.

 

I do like the key action on the YC61, and if you watch the available youtube videos you can see that it's easy to play fast piano runs with even dynamics, but I've found it's taken longer for me to get used to it than to the action on the Vox. I still find playing say a D triad where you play the f as a pick up to the f# isn't quite so straight forward and sometimes it doesn't trigger loud enough.

 

And that's where digital keyboards can fail at letting you stay in the moment. If the sound or the key action grabs your attention in a negative way while you're playing it's not ideal.

 

On another thread Darren Heinrich (Dazzjazz) made a comment that he had a Mag organ for some gigs in Europe and found himself doing more squabbling cause it lent itself to that. So it affected his playing, in that case in a good way.

 

Similarly, but in a bad way, the minimum speed of the Leslie sim horn in the Hammond SK1/SK2 is too fast imo. Faster than my 122. Not a happy place. So I have the footswitch set up as a momentary switch and I tend to kick it in and let it fall back rather than stay on the fast setting, unless I'm playing choppy funk lines. Like Darren's Mag organ, the SK1/2 has an effect on my playing, but it's constraining rather than enabling.

 

The YC61 Leslie on fast with some of the upper drawbars out isn't a happy place for me either, no matter how much I tweak the available settings. So, again, it affects my playing in so far as I tend to avoid going there. As Mex notes in his review, overall the Leslie (even on the stereo setting) sounds like the Leslie effect you hear on records where it's been miked up with one mic on the horn and one below. There is absolutely no sense of the 3D doppler effect you get sitting next to a real Leslie cabinet. It's fine in a band mix, but you might not want to do a trio gig with it, particularly if you like the Leslie on fast. I don't find myself having to avoid the fast setting on say 888 400 000 in the way I do on the SK1, it is a musically pleasing sound. It's just not anything like having a Leslie cabinet in the room.

 

At a trio gig a couple of weeks ago with a sax player and a drummer playing mostly soul tunes, we played a couple of soul jazz/hard bop things including Back at the Chicken Shack. I had the SK1 for LH bass and the YC61 above it for the top manual, and it sounded good. But I wasn't using the top drawbars, and I rarely shifted the Leslie to fast.

 

I did really enjoy the piano and synth sounds I got from the YC61. The pianos need to be run in stereo imo, but if you can sort that the C7 is quite beautiful. And if i'm not loving the Leslie sim I do really really like the dirt you can get on the organ sound. So much better than anything else I've played or heard except the HX3/Mag. And that's the thing. The YC61, Vox, SK1, Nords, Mojo are for when you need a decent clonewheel with some other sounds to get you through the gig. If you just want a Hammond sound that will put a smile on your face and do everything you ask of it, there's the Mag/HX3 and the Legend Live.

 

I should note that acoustic instruments can of course also have a limiting effect on your playing, the piano Keith Jarrett had for the Koln Concert comes most immediately to mind as a well known example.

 

YMMV

[AnotherScott]

Last question for Scott today. Does the Stage 3 also transmit high trigger point with the split/layer you"ve assigned the organ engine to?

 

I assume you're talking about MIDI... Nord Stage 3 does not transmit high trigger point over MIDI, period.

 

As far as layers go, the Dexibell is the only board I know of that will transmit a high trigger Note On on one MIDI channel and a low trigger Note On on another MIDI channel simultaneously, if you layer organ with some other sound.

 

If you can get by without pitch and mod wheels, the Dexibell is another YC61 alternative worth looking at, especially if you wished it had 73 keys. The upgraded piano and EP sounds you can load into it are much better than stock, and the ability to load soundfonts gives you another possible way to load other sounds you might need (it's also a 4-zone MIDI controller as the YC61 is, if you want to supplement the sounds with an iPhone/iPad or whatever). Moving drawbars are cool. Action is on the stiff side, though, similar to Nord. And a bit pricier and heavier than the Yamaha, with less direct effects manipulation. No ability to pan organ to one side.

 

I lied, one more. Did you open your brand spanking new Stage 3 and swap out the springs?

Not yet. I have a set of springs to try just sitting here... ;-)

[niacin]

Did you open your brand spanking new Stage 3 and swap out the springs?

Not yet. I have a set of springs to try just sitting here... ;-)

 

where did you get the springs?

[AnotherScott]

probably Syntaur

[niacin]

probably Syntaur

 

thx. Dealt with them back in the 90s when I had a couple of Ensoniq Boards. I picked up a secondhand but little played SK1 a while back and every time I play it it reminds me how worn the springs on my heavily gigged SK2 have become.

[niacin]

Which springs are you replacing those in the Stage with? (or from which other keyboard?). Thx.

[AnotherScott]

I checked, I ordered the KYSP27 based on the recommendation of another forum member.

[ElmerJFudd]

probably Syntaur

 

thx. Dealt with them back in the 90s when I had a couple of Ensoniq Boards. I picked up a secondhand but little played SK1 a while back and every time I play it it reminds me how worn the springs on my heavily gigged SK2 have become.

 

Are you finding you prefer the feel of your broken in SK2? I"m going to guess yes.

 

 

Nord getting the Kawai action for their Nord Grand was nice to see. Now if only they could source a better feeling action for their synths.

[AnotherScott]

Nord getting the Kawai action for their Nord Grand was nice to see. Now if only they could source a better feeling action for their synths.

Really, I think Fatar is a perfectly good source for synth boards... it's more a matter of whether you approve of the specific Fatar choice Nord has made, I think.

[niacin]

probably Syntaur

 

thx. Dealt with them back in the 90s when I had a couple of Ensoniq Boards. I picked up a secondhand but little played SK1 a while back and every time I play it it reminds me how worn the springs on my heavily gigged SK2 have become.

 

Are you finding you prefer the feel of your broken in SK2? I"m going to guess yes.

 

For organ yes, for playing Wurli or piano or anything where you're looking to control dynamics with key velocity no because the springs wear unevenly.

[niacin]

Nord getting the Kawai action for their Nord Grand was nice to see. Now if only they could source a better feeling action for their synths.

 

The action in the OB6 and many other high end synths is Fatar/Studiologic and as good as anything else out there imo.

[ElmerJFudd]

Nord getting the Kawai action for their Nord Grand was nice to see. Now if only they could source a better feeling action for their synths.

Really, I think Fatar is a perfectly good source for synth boards... it's more a matter of whether you approve of the specific Fatar choice Nord has made, I think.

 

That"s fair. But personally, and you may or may not agree, I much prefer the feel of the synth actions Yamaha, (and Korg and Roland) use in their high end models. Of course then the complaint about Yamaha becomes that they don"t size their key width fully. FA-06, Krome, even MODX7. Not enjoyable for me. It I had to suffer it, Id take the MODX7. If the DS synths are also using this action - they don"t feel anything like the Nord. And I"m hoping that"s the spring gauge. But it"s more likely also inclusion of a counter weight to get the springs moving.

[AnotherScott]

Nord getting the Kawai action for their Nord Grand was nice to see. Now if only they could source a better feeling action for their synths.

Really, I think Fatar is a perfectly good source for synth boards... it's more a matter of whether you approve of the specific Fatar choice Nord has made, I think.

 

That"s fair. But personally, and you may or may not agree, I much prefer the feel of the synth actions Yamaha, (and Korg and Roland) use in their high end models. Of course then the complaint about Yamaha becomes that they don"t size their key width fully. FA-06, Krome, even MODX7. Not enjoyable for me. It I had to suffer it, Id take the MODX7

Yeah, I can see preferring others. To put it differently, I don't think I've played any Fatar synth action that wasn't at least better than the *basic* Roland, Korg, and Yamaha models, anything that wasn't at least decent. But yes, Korg/Roland/Yamaha can probably beat out Fatar on the higher end (those boards tend to be heavy, though). Also, aftertouch is notoriously finicky on Rolands (if they have it at all).

 

As for the low end, I agree, MODX7 is my choice over the FA/Krome. It took a little tweaking to make it playable for pianos when need be, but I got it to where I'm okay with it, and unlike the competitive Korg/Roland, at least the action is pretty consistent from front to back. If that's not there, it's not fixable!

[ElmerJFudd]

Apparently there"s also a TP-9 that floats about - I think Kurzweil used it in at least one version of the PC line. I"m not sure what"s different about it from the TP-8 or TP-8O that it gets a different number.

 

 

 

Fatar says, ' Keyboard for Economic and Compact Digital Piano. The keyboard is available in various configurations: 61, 76 & 88 weighted keys, dynamic bubble contacts. Monophonic aftertouch.' as description for both TP8 and 9. Does one have longer keys?

[niacin]

I checked, I ordered the KYSP27 based on the recommendation of another forum member.

 

Thanks. Found them listed under the DSI Prophet. So that's the same action that's in the OB6? Do you know what other keyboards have it rather than the firmer springs that are used in the Nords?

[niacin]

so I found this, posted hereabouts a while back, list of keybeds in various boards, :

 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/1149168-ultimate-keybed-thread-models-manufacturers-listed.html

 

so the Fatar TP/9S is in the Kurz PC3K6 and the DSI boards. But the Fatar info here: http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_9S.htm says it's available in weighted and unweighted versions, so different springs. And we know the TP/8HO is found in the Hammond SK1/2, Nord Electros, Mojo and others but different springs are used.

 

Scott, which Stage 3 model do you have?

[Adan]

 

And if i'm not loving the Leslie sim I do really really like the dirt you can get on the organ sound. So much better than anything else I've played or heard except the HX3/Mag.

 

Interesting perspective. There's a lot of online discussion of what people think is wrong with the YC organ sound, not as much discussion of what is good. Imo Yamaha did a great job with the basic organ tone. It has a gritty thunk I just love.

 

Fast leslie upper drawbars out is the stress test for a leslie sim, and the YC doesn't do very well there. That will matter to some players more than others. You can achieve the typical Jimmy Smith/Larry Young jazz sound without ever going there, which is probably why I'm less annoyed by it than some people apparently are. I've hardly ever used that setting on any real Hammond or clone, it's just not pleasing to my ears except perhaps as a momentary contrast.

 

When it comes to gospel I'm just a casual observer but it seems to me leslie fast/all drawbars is a fairly common setting. If so, then I wouldn't want the YC for it.

 

But for fast leslie suckage, I don't think anything competes with Dexibell for worst in class. Maybe they've fixed that, but every example I've heard was just horrible. You'd think if they could fix that, they would. But people have different ideas of what a digital leslie emulation should sound like. A fundamental problem with comparing opinions is that we start from different reference points. That's true of a lot of things but especially true for leslie sims.

[Doerfler]

Fast leslie upper drawbars out is the stress test for a leslie sim, and the YC doesn't do very well there.

 

nor does the Korg Vox, nor does the origional dual manual Mojo. I own both. Neo Instruments Ventilator II is my friend.

[rogs]

 

And if i'm not loving the Leslie sim I do really really like the dirt you can get on the organ sound. So much better than anything else I've played or heard except the HX3/Mag.

 

Interesting perspective. There's a lot of online discussion of what people think is wrong with the YC organ sound, not as much discussion of what is good. Imo Yamaha did a great job with the basic organ tone. It has a gritty thunk I just love.

 

Fast leslie upper drawbars out is the stress test for a leslie sim, and the YC doesn't do very well there. That will matter to some players more than others. You can achieve the typical Jimmy Smith/Larry Young jazz sound without ever going there, which is probably why I'm less annoyed by it than some people apparently are. I've hardly ever used that setting on any real Hammond or clone, it's just not pleasing to my ears except perhaps as a momentary contrast.

 

When it comes to gospel I'm just a casual observer but it seems to me leslie fast/all drawbars is a fairly common setting. If so, then I wouldn't want the YC for it.

 

But for fast leslie suckage, I don't think anything competes with Dexibell for worst in class. Maybe they've fixed that, but every example I've heard was just horrible. You'd think if they could fix that, they would. But people have different ideas of what a digital leslie emulation should sound like. A fundamental problem with comparing opinions is that we start from different reference points. That's true of a lot of things but especially true for leslie sims.

 

I think most folk use the Neo Ventilator 2 as the 'gold standard' for comparison, but I haven't heard the YC61 through a Vent yet. I'm very tempted to try one - I can always return it if it doesn't offer significant improvements...

 

What is annoying is that Yamaha appear to have taken the trouble to try and construct a highly 'tweakable' rotary sim - and have then blown it in the actual realisation..

 

The only thing that is really good on both fast and slow speed is the background noise sim .. that works very well! :-)

 

⢠The adjustable acceleration speeds for both rotors have an arbitrary numbered range ("0.21" to "2.00")... Those bear no resemblance to anything time wise (and 2.00 is the fastest?)

⢠The lower rotor - when set to 0.21 for acceleration - is still not up to full speed after 2 and a half MINUTES (I got bored then, so I don't know how long - if ever - it takes to get up to full speed)

⢠The crossover is not well defined ..and the lower rotor is very weak

⢠The horn rotor has an annoying 'beat' frequency at around 2 or 3 Hz on any fast speed that has nothing to do with the lower rotor (it's still there with the lower rotor level set to 0 ).

 

In short, it's a mess - almost as if the suits were pushing for a release date before things like the rotary sim were ready....

 

Yamaha are well aware of the discontent about this sim -- it's no. 1 on the YC61 Ideascale website...

 

Whether they will do anything about it? - We shall see. (The main Yamaha tech support guy can get VERY defensive if you dare to criticise anything Yamaha does....

 

If I do go for a Vent, and then Yamaha miraculously present a brilliant updated sim in the next firmware update, I should probably be annoyed .. although I don't think I probably need to worry too much ...

(and a used Vent in good nick should fetch something on Ebay! )

[AnotherScott]

Apparently there"s also a TP-9 that floats about - I think Kurzweil used it in at least one version of the PC line. I"m not sure what"s different about it from the TP-8 or TP-8O that it gets a different number.

 

Fatar says, ' Keyboard for Economic and Compact Digital Piano. The keyboard is available in various configurations: 61, 76 & 88 weighted keys, dynamic bubble contacts. Monophonic aftertouch.' as description for both TP8 and 9. Does one have longer keys?

 

TP9 in its Synth version was used in the Kurzweil PC361, PC3A6, PC3K6. And tons of other boards, including ones from companies like Moog, Dave Smith, Novation, Access, Alesis, Nord, Ensoniq, Korg. and others... see niacin's link

 

Having played the PC361 and the Kronos 61 next to each other, I thought the keys felt quite similar except for the throw distance... and Korg's is considered one of the better synth actions. So I think TP9 is a really nice synth action (and is also what I had in mind when I initially said "I think Fatar is a perfectly good source for synth boards")... but it's really poor for piano.

 

They make a TP9 Piano version, that's used in the Numa Compact series, and it is indeed better for piano than the version on the PC361 (not *great* by any means, but definitely more playable). An obvious difference is the shape (piano lipped keys instead of diving board keys), and maybe it's more tightly sprung. I suspect these keys have weights in them whereas the PC361 version does not.

 

TP8 series feels quite different from TP9, more even in the keys' response from front to back. And in its non-organ version (i.e. the version used in various other Kurzweil models), the keys are longer. The white keys on the TP8/P Artis 7 are almost 6 inches, whereas the white keys on the ubiquitous TP8/O are just a bit over 5. While I didn't like the TP8/P's default high tension springs (I'm assuming Kurzweil used Fatar's default), once I replaced them with lighter ones, I found it to be quite a bit better than the TP9/P action in the Numa Compact 2.

 

So my summary:

TP9/S = good synth action, but poor if you need dual use for piano --- see PC361, Novation SL MkII, and a whole slew of others (though as discussed below, there could also be differences in weight that I have not experienced)

TP9/P = with lighter than stock springs, one of the best semi-weighted actions, good for organ (albeit not waterfall shaped) and also good for piano (as SW actions go) --- see Artis 7, PC3LE6/7, and the 76 key versions of the rest of the PC3 series

TP8/O = varies with implementation. People say the version in the Mojo is among the best organ actions you can get, but I'm guessing it drives a piano module poorly. Whatever Nord has done to adjust velocity curves or whatever, it seems to play piano better on newer Nords than older ones, but the action feels a bit on the stiff side for organ.

TP8/P = decent but not outstanding all-in-one action (see Numa Compact series... I suspect this could be better with some more effort put into velocity curves, since it "feels" like it should be responding better than it does)

 

(Caveat: These are my recollections/impressions, but I did not always have the opportunity to play these side by side, and memories can sometimes be misleading!)

 

But the Fatar info here: http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_9S.htm says it's available in weighted and unweighted versions, so different springs.

Fatar is talking literally there. It is available with or without a weight. which you can see illustrated in their diagrams, it is placed at the end of the key closest to the player (in the case of the page you linked to, it's the dark filled in area under the diving board part). There is not necessarily any difference in springs, though I suppose there could be.

 

There is no hammer action version of a TP9, which is what most of us typically think of when we hear the term "weighted." Strictly speaking, any key with any weight is weighted. There is no such thing as a semi-weight. It has just become common usage that a keyboard that has some weight but not a full hammer mechanism is referred to as a semi-weighted keyboard... I suppose because the early hammer action keyboards were typically called weighted, so "semi weighted" became a way to say "we've put some weight in it, but it's not the same as what you think of as a weighted keyboard, it's kinda part way there."

 

Scott, which Stage 3 model do you have?

The Compact. I don't think there's any spring to change in the others.