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I am trying to get better sound out of my digital piano (Nord) playing through EV speakers. The high notes are pretty bass sound realistically but the first octave above middle C sounds boomy and harsh. I know people recommend using equalization to fix this. My Nord has a treble and bass and mid range with adjustable frequency, but I am really ignorant how to use these effectively. Is there some technique besides randomly playing with the knobs?
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I am trying to get better sound out of my digital piano (Nord) playing through EV speakers. The high notes are pretty bass sound realistically but the first octave above middle C sounds boomy and harsh. I know people recommend using equalization to fix this. My Nord has a treble and bass and mid range with adjustable frequency, but I am really ignorant how to use these effectively. Is there some technique besides randomly playing with the knobs?

 

For you to get your sound, playing with the knobs is probably your fastest and easiest method.

 

First, check the back of your speakers where you are plugging in and see if there are any controls there that might need to be adjusted. If there are options, try them all and see what they do.

 

With the speaker options in mind, work on your keyboard tones. Start with your knobs all centered (or at "noon"). Try turning your midrange boost/cut knob all the way up and adjusting the frequency. If something stands out - good or bad - make a note of it. Then try turning it all the way down and adjusting the frequency. Over-accentuating the mids will help you zero in on getting them to sound the way you like. If you found something you disliked, consider setting it for that frequency and subtracting it. If you found something you liked but maybe it's just too much, turn it back until it sounds more even. Once you find your happy place for the mids, tweak the bass and then the treble to work with them.

 

If that is good but not great after you've searched your keyboard options, try adjusting the speakers again. That may lead to adjustments on the keyboards again, pretty normal that one change may lead to another. As long as you keep getting closer to what you want it's progress.

 

You may find that depending on the room and where you are in that room you may need to make a little tweak sometimes. That is an added benefit of understanding your setup.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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Which model EV speakers are you using? The acoustic piano samples definitely require high-quality amplification and EQ as well. You may want to reference this detailed thread on the Nord forum:

 

https://www.norduserforum.com/accessories-and-amplification-f8/gear-alert-new-qsc-k8-2-t13372.html?hilit=k8.2

 

-dj

iMac i7 13.5.2

Studio One 5.5.2

Nord Stage 3

Nord Wave 2

Nektar T4

Drawmer DL 241

Focusrite ISA Two

Focusrite Clarett 8 Pre

 

 

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Almost always I roll off the bass. Then you might actually need to boost high mids or highs a touch. Vastly depends on your set up and sound. Also part of this is the sad realization that it will never be an entirely fulfilling sound through speakers.

Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37

 

My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section

https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native

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Which model of EVs and is this for playing solo, in an acoustic combo or in an electric band? It makes a difference in how I would approach it.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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A few more things to consider.

 

I generally think of equalization to correct for unique issues in the room I'm playing.

 

I try to get the sound itself programmed to sound the way I prefer using reasonably flat reproduction (either studio monitors or good headphones), and then when live I try to use quality amplification that I've gotten to trust. Then, if my speakers are the main source of sound (less than 50% of my gigs), then I EQ to adjust for the room. For the other times where the room is hearing FOH - that's the sound guy's domain.

 

For the OP, if you're using your EVs as the main source the audience will hear, you might also want to listen to your rig from the audience's perspective as well, just to get a better idea how your piano sound presents where they're listening.

..
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Almost always I roll off the bass. Then you might actually need to boost high mids or highs a touch. Vastly depends on your set up and sound. Also part of this is the sad realization that it will never be an entirely fulfilling sound through speakers.

 

This!

 

Last sentence is important also. I"m satisfied with my piano sound about 5 times a year. If this is for live situations more detailed the piano sounds the more critical your monitor placement. If I"m playing through twin wedges with the Kronos and the speakers are out of position it can get wonky real fast ... but my old Kawai MP5 it don"t matter you can drop the speakers.

 

EQ is an important tool. I always have my monitor send and FOH feed on separate busses if I need it. I don"t change what goes to the front desk. Different rooms have big impacts on everything. If you aren"t careful with your low end they will high pass your keys or just not send keys to the subs.

 

But yeah. Let us know what model EVs you have.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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I like using the mid EQ fix method. Boost the mid gain knob up to max, then sweep the mid frequency knob, hunting for the nastiest tone, and leave the mid EQ frequency knob there, but dial back the mid gain knob to cut out that nastiness. Of course you want to do this fix with the speaker facing you from a distance, at the same distance the audience will be.

 

That"s a standard way to fix with EQ. Here"s a couple more suggestions.

 

1). Try different pianos with no EQ. Choose the best two. Then put one of the pianos in slot A, and EQ it if needed. Do the same with the other piano, but in slot B.

 

2) Now turn on the Auto Pan for slot A piano. If you set the rate to zero, you can then Pan completely to the right, without it moving. For slot B piano, Pan it completely to the left.

 

3). Now you can layer slot A and B. Press and hold slot A button, then also press the slot B button. Enjoy a richer, wider layered piano Experiment with layering different pianos. â certain pairs of piano compliment each other while others don"t mesh well. I like layering the Silver and the White Grand.

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I have a Nord piano 4. Unless I am mistaken its not possible to layer pianos - you can layer a piano with something from the synthesizer layer. This is kind of a bummer because the sound of piano+Rhodes is pretty cool. If there is a way I would love to know it.

 

Looks like you're limited to just piano / synth layers.

 

I see that the Piano 4 has 2 equalizer sections. And re-reading your original post, I see you're having trouble with the octave just above middle C, which is C4. The frequency of C4 is 261 Hz, and so the C5 above it is about 522. If that octave is harsh, then you'll want to cut there:

 

1) on the far right equalizer, set the Frequency knob halfway between 300 and 500

2) set the Mid knob to -5 or -10 or whatever sounds best

3) go to the Equalizer section on the left (under the Piano Level)

4) try the Bright or Soft setting, see which you like best

5) go back to the EQ on the right, and make small adjustments as needed

 

Hopefully that helps. But keep in mind you really want a pair of FRFR (full range flat response) speakers for decent quality keyboard amplification. Modern powered speakers are head and shoulders above anything pre-2010. They have built-in DSP computer chips to really fine tune the frequency response to be as flat as possible. They also often have different "profiles" you can call up. So if you use your speakers as the main tops in a PA, there's a setting for that. If you use your speakers more as an onstage monitor amp for yourself, there's another setting for that. And so on.

 

Something like the QSC K.2 series, or even the CP8..

 

If you do decide to upgrade, try to bring in your Nord Piano to decide which size you like best. The K8.2 might be lightweight and punchy to your liking. Or you might prefer the K10.2 for more balanced mids while still being fairly portable. Then again, you might like the K12.2 best for its bigger bottom end. Point is, if you've invested $$$ in a high quality keyboard, you should follow through and get quality speakers as well.

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But keep in mind you really want a pair of FRFR (full range flat response) speakers for decent quality keyboard amplification. Modern powered speakers are head and shoulders above anything pre-2010. They have built-in DSP computer chips to really fine tune the frequency response to be as flat as possible. They also often have different "profiles" you can call up. So if you use your speakers as the main tops in a PA, there's a setting for that. If you use your speakers more as an onstage monitor amp for yourself, there's another setting for that. And so on.

 

Something like the QSC K.2 series, or even the CP8.

 

Maybe you missed where Charlie said he had a pair of EV-ZAX1-90s. Perhaps not on the same level as K8.2s, but everything I've read about them suggest they should be fine for his needs. I seriously doubt the speakers are a factor in his disappointment with the sound. I don't recall specifically listening to any, so maybe they're really poor speakers? I doubt it though.

 

I'm not a Nord guy and TBH have been pretty underwhelmed by their pianos â the one's I've tried, anyway â but then again I've used nothing but multi-gigabyte software piano libraries for almost 20 years. As others here have noted, cutting lows and low mids can take energy out of the "mud" or "boomyness" frequencies. IMO, close-miked piano samples (which most if not all DPs use) do not sound realistic when amplified on a gig through a "full-range" speaker. Close-miking accentuates the bass frequencies and NOBODY listens to an acoustic piano with their head inside the piano inches from the strings â which is likely where the microphones that recorded the samples were placed. AAMOF you could probably put a high-pass filter with a gentle (12db/oct) set around 200-400Hz and the sound will clean up considerably. This has the additional benefit of allowing you to push your level in the band mix higher without encroaching on the bass player's turf. Try it!

 

1). Try different pianos with no EQ. Choose the best two. Then put one of the pianos in slot A, and EQ it if needed. Do the same with the other piano, but in slot B.

 

2) Now turn on the Auto Pan for slot A piano. If you set the rate to zero, you can then Pan completely to the right, without it moving. For slot B piano, Pan it completely to the left.

 

3). Now you can layer slot A and B. Press and hold slot A button, then also press the slot B button. Enjoy a richer, wider layered piano Experiment with layering different pianos. â certain pairs of piano compliment each other while others don"t mesh well. I like layering the Silver and the White Grand.

 

This might work to give one an interesting sound appropriate for special situations, but IMO is not the right way to make a better-sounding "regular" acoustic piano. When two different pianos are layered, I can't see how you'd avoid phase shifts that would color the sound. I'm not saying it would sound bad or even "wrong" â just that I'd know I was listening to two pianos, not one. If it works in the context you use it in, great. I know it wouldn't work for me.

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Maybe you missed where Charlie said he had a pair of EV-ZAX1-90s. Perhaps not on the same level as K8.2s, but everything I've read about them suggest they should be fine for his needs. I seriously doubt the speakers are a factor in his disappointment with the sound. I don't recall specifically listening to any, so maybe they're really poor speakers? I doubt it though.

 

I recommended more modern powered speakers *because* he mentioned he had EV-ZAX1-90s.

 

I'm not a Nord guy and TBH have been pretty underwhelmed by their pianos â the one's I've tried, anyway â but then again I've used nothing but multi-gigabyte software piano libraries for almost 20 years. As others here have noted, cutting lows and low mids can take energy out of the "mud" or "boomyness" frequencies. IMO, close-miked piano samples (which most if not all DPs use) do not sound realistic when amplified on a gig through a "full-range" speaker. Close-miking accentuates the bass frequencies and NOBODY listens to an acoustic piano with their head inside the piano inches from the strings â which is likely where the microphones that recorded the samples were placed. AAMOF you could probably put a high-pass filter with a gentle (12db/oct) set around 200-400Hz and the sound will clean up considerably. This has the additional benefit of allowing you to push your level in the band mix higher without encroaching on the bass player's turf. Try it!

 

Agreed, cutting low end can definitely help clear up the sound up. Should be able to that with the Nord's built-in EQ as well.

 

1). Try different pianos with no EQ. Choose the best two. Then put one of the pianos in slot A, and EQ it if needed. Do the same with the other piano, but in slot B.

 

2) Now turn on the Auto Pan for slot A piano. If you set the rate to zero, you can then Pan completely to the right, without it moving. For slot B piano, Pan it completely to the left.

 

3). Now you can layer slot A and B. Press and hold slot A button, then also press the slot B button. Enjoy a richer, wider layered piano Experiment with layering different pianos. â certain pairs of piano compliment each other while others don"t mesh well. I like layering the Silver and the White Grand.

 

This might work to give one an interesting sound appropriate for special situations, but IMO is not the right way to make a better-sounding "regular" acoustic piano. When two different pianos are layered, I can't see how you'd avoid phase shifts that would color the sound. I'm not saying it would sound bad or even "wrong" â just that I'd know I was listening to two pianos, not one. If it works in the context you use it in, great. I know it wouldn't work for me.

 

Indeed, certain combinations of pianos don't work well together, especially if they're both boxy, like the Bosie. The Silver and the White blend well because they are more glassy than boxy... and hard panning them away from each other also adds a nice spaciousness, a different and more natural blending than a chorus on a piano. It's a blend that keeps me inspired, so I thought others might try and see for themselves. It's all a matter of taste anyway.

 

You'd only get phase shifting happening if you have the exact same waveform interacting with itself unnaturally. Different pianos won't phase shift against each other anymore than two violin or two trombone sections would phase shift.

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You'd only get phase shifting happening if you have the exact same waveform interacting with itself unnaturally. Different pianos won't phase shift against each other anymore than two violin or two trombone sections would phase shift.

 

"Phase shifting" might not be 100% accurate in terms of the textbook definition - but I'm assuming anyone reading this knows what I mean. Two pianos layered, no matter their sound quality, are not a substitute in a situation that explicitely calls for a single good-sounding piano. It can sound fantastic, blend well, be inspiring, a one-of-a-kind sound, etc... but it wouldn't be a go-to if someone asked me what to do about a poor-sounding digital piano. Assuming the rest of the listening chain was up to snuff, I would tell that person to 1) try EQing if it's the tonal character that needs work, and 2) try a different piano sample if #1 fails to fix things.

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You'd only get phase shifting happening if you have the exact same waveform interacting with itself unnaturally. Different pianos won't phase shift against each other anymore than two violin or two trombone sections would phase shift.

 

"Phase shifting" might not be 100% accurate in terms of the textbook definition - but I'm assuming anyone reading this knows what I mean. Two pianos layered, no matter their sound quality, are not a substitute in a situation that explicitely calls for a single good-sounding piano. It can sound fantastic, blend well, be inspiring, a one-of-a-kind sound, etc... but it wouldn't be a go-to if someone asked me what to do about a poor-sounding digital piano. Assuming the rest of the listening chain was up to snuff, I would tell that person to 1) try EQing if it's the tonal character that needs work, and 2) try a different piano sample if #1 fails to fix things.

The phase effects will produce a chorusing effect. This happens on any instrument when you add a second player. And it increases as you add more. Think solo violin vs violin section.

 

Whether you like the more chorused sound of multiple pianos is up to your own taste. It might cover some deficiencies, but as others have suggested, you might want use more traditional tools to optimize your piano sound first.

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I've said this before...

 

Until the pandemic, I played a Nord Stage for years in a classic rock band. Here are a few of my observations, FWIW.

 

- amplification fidelity is unusually important with Nord pianos. I went thru some increasingly nice speakers - EV, Accugroove etc - before finally arriving at a pair accurate enough to sound as good as my headphones (TT08a). Once I switched to in-ears,

 

- for all the agonizing getting Nords to sound great on stage, they sound far better to the audience. I've listened to others playing my rig and when I step out front it sounds quite real.

 

- for rock, I find 2 layered uprights to sit in the mix the best. Thunderous 9' grands sound out of place to me when banging out the R&R. The naturally weaker bass of the upright stays out of the bass player's way. Layering does not sound chorused or phased - it sounds like a piano tuned with looser unisons, which is both authentic to an awful lot of rock songs, plus helps it cut without having to jack the treble unnaturally.

 

I use the ancient Rain Piano sample for the bite, and the Blue Swede for the body. The Rain gets a tiny treble boost and is mixed lower than the Swede.

 

- certain songs with exposed piano (typically ballads) do sound better to me with a single unlayered grand sample. But if you find yourself having to EQ a lot, something else is amiss.

 

Now I wish they could fix the notorious finger to ear problems of the TP-100.

Moe

---

 

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You'd only get phase shifting happening if you have the exact same waveform interacting with itself unnaturally. Different pianos won't phase shift against each other anymore than two violin or two trombone sections would phase shift.

 

"Phase shifting" might not be 100% accurate in terms of the textbook definition - but I'm assuming anyone reading this knows what I mean. Two pianos layered, no matter their sound quality, are not a substitute in a situation that explicitely calls for a single good-sounding piano. It can sound fantastic, blend well, be inspiring, a one-of-a-kind sound, etc... but it wouldn't be a go-to if someone asked me what to do about a poor-sounding digital piano. Assuming the rest of the listening chain was up to snuff, I would tell that person to 1) try EQing if it's the tonal character that needs work, and 2) try a different piano sample if #1 fails to fix things.

 

Generally, layering pianos is not very desirable. About a year and a half ago, I started comparing all the pianos I had in my hardware. I A/B'd and layered the Kronos SGX as well as various of its rompler pianos, the pianos in an Integra, a Casio Privia PX5S, the MODX pianos, and the Kurzweil Forte. Most combinations didn't work so well, and the frequencies fought it each other. I ended up returning the Forte when I found a great deal on a Stage 2.

 

Many of the Stage 2 pianos played pretty decently (keeping in mind live stage work, not for recording purposes), but I still experimented with layering to see if there was any improvement. Nord pianos layered with its own was also hit and miss, but it just so happened that the White and Silver I found to be a nice combination that didn't become phase shifty or overly boxy or unnaturally chorused. I thought maybe the OP might have had a Stage 2 and simply gave him an *additional* suggestion as something to try.

 

However, if you go back and take a look at my posts in this thread, most of my suggestions have been pretty bog standard recommendations -- EQ out the mids or the bass, try different piano samples, EQ your speakers if you can (he can't), and try better speakers if possible. I never meant to suggest that layering be a go-to solution, just as I did not recommend trying multi-gigabyte software pianos or buying another hardware DP.

 

Just trying to help someone out, and I'm one of those individuals who will suggest things that are sometimes "outside the box." I like the motivational signs at various jobs I've been in that suggest that one shouldn't fall into the trap of "but that's just the way we've always done things here." Experimenting can be productive, like the invention of Reese's peanut butter cups (chocolate and peanut butter? whodathunk?). Sometimes experimenting can also produce some duds, like most piano layering combinations, or chicken and waffles for breakfast.

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I've said this before...

 

Until the pandemic, I played a Nord Stage for years in a classic rock band. Here are a few of my observations, FWIW.

 

- amplification fidelity is unusually important with Nord pianos. I went thru some increasingly nice speakers - EV, Accugroove etc - before finally arriving at a pair accurate enough to sound as good as my headphones (TT08a). Once I switched to in-ears,

 

- for all the agonizing getting Nords to sound great on stage, they sound far better to the audience. I've listened to others playing my rig and when I step out front it sounds quite real.

 

- for rock, I find 2 layered uprights to sit in the mix the best. Thunderous 9' grands sound out of place to me when banging out the R&R. The naturally weaker bass of the upright stays out of the bass player's way. Layering does not sound chorused or phased - it sounds like a piano tuned with looser unisons, which is both authentic to an awful lot of rock songs, plus helps it cut without having to jack the treble unnaturally.

 

I use the ancient Rain Piano sample for the bite, and the Blue Swede for the body. The Rain gets a tiny treble boost and is mixed lower than the Swede.

 

- certain songs with exposed piano (typically ballads) do sound better to me with a single unlayered grand sample. But if you find yourself having to EQ a lot, something else is amiss.

 

Now I wish they could fix the notorious finger to ear problems of the TP-100.

 

I do like the way the Nord pianos cut thru, more than the Kronos pianos. I don't like the way the Kronos pianos "top out" at high velocity levels.

 

I'll have to load up the Nord sample editor and see if I can make room for the Rain and Swede uprights. I'll assume you kept them both in the center to cut better, instead of using stereo separation to fill the field with color. I had to do a bit of juggling, math, and sacrifice to get the APs I wanted into the Stage 2's smaller memory. I ditched all the EPs and clavs, but I think I can boot one of the APs now that I'm using the same Silver White combo all the time.

 

When I was researching which DP to get, those TP100 stories made me more aware of different types of keybed action available. I knew that I just didn't get along with many keyboard actions (Roland FA), and it also explained why I wasn't fond of the Acuna 76 I had with the TP100 action (although it felt slightly better than my other TP100 board). Action and velocity response really play into response and feel. Velocity response you might be able to tailor if there are internal settings to adjust; but the hardware is what it is. Playing a Kronos piano through the Casio PX5S keybed feels much different than playing that same Kronos piano via the Stage 2 keybed.

 

I'm sure the Kawai keybeds are top notch, but there comes a time when good enough is good enough. Stage 2 does that for me.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

- for rock, I find 2 layered uprights to sit in the mix the best. Thunderous 9' grands sound out of place to me when banging out the R&R. The naturally weaker bass of the upright stays out of the bass player's way. Layering does not sound chorused or phased - it sounds like a piano tuned with looser unisons, which is both authentic to an awful lot of rock songs, plus helps it cut without having to jack the treble unnaturally.

 

I use the ancient Rain Piano sample for the bite, and the Blue Swede for the body. The Rain gets a tiny treble boost and is mixed lower than the Swede.

 

- certain songs with exposed piano (typically ballads) do sound better to me with a single unlayered grand sample. But if you find yourself having to EQ a lot, something else is amiss.

 

After watching a few videos on the Stage 2, I found this pop up in my YT recommendations. As the live keyboard player on The Voice, David Tench sure loves his Nord. Here he quickly shows how he"ll sometimes layer an upright with a grand when he needs a thicker piano sound on the fly.

 

https://youtu.be/B98bzYYsp_

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The sad truth is that Nord pianos sound always great in recordings and headphones and often for the audience but never good for the performer using PA monitoring. I learned that the hard way and no EQ setting can change that. Even with boutique class speaker equipment I think something is missing. Yam pianos are much less sensible to that, one of the reasons I keep for live playing still my old P-250. This is not to say that with newest line array gear in near future the situation won't improve.
One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain. - Bob Marley
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I think Dream65 is on to something there... a lot of that is very true. Yamaha piano seems to be robust for live performance... for the most part...and do seem to kick back to the performer better... there are always exceptions and there are many variables let, face it speakers and amplification etc.. ... but for the most part, my experience has been similar. The Nord pianos record amazingly well though, they really do! Better than the Yamahas I feel!

 CP-50, YC 73,  FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122

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I don't know about fiddling with Nord knobs, but using a digital (I presume) tone control isn't realistic to get the perfect piano sound fro a sample based piano machine. To my knowledge Clavia doesn't do much more than provide the sound engine with multi velocity multi-samples and doesn't do much about chord based piano tones or spectral component management, so by and large hitting a note makes a sample play back. So unless you want to compensate for the speaker system or need to undo an equalisation that's built in the samples there'd be no need for equalization. There's the issue of sample reconstruction errors in the instrument's Digital to Analog Converter, and that too will not become much prettier by using EQ, unless that would be specifically designed.

 

T.

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The sad truth is that Nord pianos sound always great in recordings and headphones and often for the audience but never good for the performer using PA monitoring. I learned that the hard way and no EQ setting can change that. Even with boutique class speaker equipment I think something is missing. Yam pianos are much less sensible to that, one of the reasons I keep for live playing still my old P-250. This is not to say that with newest line array gear in near future the situation won't improve.

This has been discussed in the past. There was a time when by pure chance I had a Nord Piano and a CP4 sitting next to each other in my house for a month. The CP4 had better action, and the Nord sounded much more like a real piano (as you would expect from well recorded samples). The kicker was that the Nord only sounded like a fine real piano when played through very expensive speakers. Through anything else 'Meh". I kept the CP4 because of the action and it"s ability to sound good (not great) through any PA/monitor.

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I am trying to get better sound out of my digital piano (Nord) playing through EV speakers. The high notes are pretty bass sound realistically but the first octave above middle C sounds boomy and harsh. I know people recommend using equalization to fix this. My Nord has a treble and bass and mid range with adjustable frequency, but I am really ignorant how to use these effectively. Is there some technique besides randomly playing with the knobs?

 

 

If you're going to play an electric instrument learning to use the knobs, sliders, and etc are as much a part of learn to play as is the music. Especially when you understand your sound changes in every room you play and even as the number of people in the room increases and decreases. So it worth your time to spend playing with those EQ knob to learn how they effect the sound. Even you speakers have an effect and most speakers are design for a particular use that may not be keyboard, so if you can try borrowing some different speakers from someone and see how even that will change the sound. Same thing goes on in the acoustic piano world with the room the piano is in, if piano being mic'd then the kind and placement play a big role in the sound you produce. Controlling the sound you generate be it a electric or acoustic instrument is part of learning to play.

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