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Semi - OT: Weird Band Dilemma


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Two years ago I joined a band. Two members of the group and I were in the same band in the 90's. One is a teacher and another is a CFO in a small company, We drank a lot of beer and played covers from 1992 till about 1994. They had grown up together and went to school since grammar school. We all kind of hung in the same crowds but they were always a little older and really had an Irish-American thing going. They always frequenting Irish bars and so forth. This side of the city was very Irish and Catholic. They decided to add me to the band to see what would happen in 2018 as I wasn't there from the beginning and they wanted keyboards. I was apprehensive at first as I run a successful band myself but thought I would help out when I can. Some of the material is actually pretty good.

 

At any rate they were fun guys, still kind of are but one thing COVID has revealed is people's true colors. I am seeing our music scene start to feed on itself, there is frustration and people are drawing sides. These 5 guys do things by group text which is a pain in the ass and not always professional I think. It gets stupid but the last few times I was in this group text they were saying bad things about Cuomo and Fauci. These guys really sound ignorant. I want to play more than anyone but NYS is still on lock-down and entertainment is a no-no with large bands. I hate it, but I worked in public health so I understand both sides of it. I don't think any of them are bad people but god they sound really ignorant. None of them is an epidemiologist or doctor, I know as I worked with people like that. People can have their opinions, that's OK, but I don't know if I fit in with them now? Do I ignore it and go forward or am I not being true to myself. I have an interracial family and a black daughter I raised which is something they don't understand. My girl won't come to the gigs because she feels out of place with the crowd. With things being what they are in this country we don't want problems and are trying to live our lives. We try to not to put each other in hostile situations either. I can take care of myself but it's a tense time. I know how they feel about BLM and protests also. I have a 6 piece Reggae band that has been successful for 9 years old and so much more of a following. They don't probably get that either except for a couple of the guys.

 

This isn't meant to be a political discussion about things and I am kind of disappointed because we share history and some funny times. We hadn't seen each other in a long time and maybe it was always this way and I didn't know it? I guess having some beers and good times can't salvage It. I am surprised as they seem to like music so much. It's a weird position to be in as it doesn't really have anything to do with music as some of their stuff is good. It's just bothering me now. Sorry for the long rant but I am figuring out what to do.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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Your first loyalty is to yourself, and secondly to your family. What happened in the past is not always a barometer of the future. One thing I have learned over the years is try as we might to separate musicality from personality if there isn"t a total comfort level on both sides of that equation, it"s time to let go,

 

As much as I love gigging, I didn"t get to reach middle age by being stupid or oblivious to reality. I"ve turned down iffy gigs for lack of details on band size, indoor/outdoor stages, etc, which 6 months ago meant nothing. Even though music is my first love, breathing is more important.

 

You can"t over analyze anything in these horrendous times.

 

Jake

1967 B-3 w/(2) 122's, Nord C1w/Leslie 2101 top, Nord PedalKeys 27, Nord Electro 4D, IK B3X, QSC K12.2, Yamaha reface YC+CS+CP

 

"It needs a Hammond"

 

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It sounds like both you and your daughter are uncomfortable with this crew. Since you are in lockdown and can't work anyway... yeah this sounds like a good time to just bow out.

 

Thanks for your story. It helps give me perspective on decisions I've made recently.

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Reads like your friends have revealed themselves. Some of it doesn't align with the life you've chosen and beliefs.

 

I agree with letting those cats know how you feel. Even if they still want you to play keys and can keep their ignorance in check, you'll have to decide whether or not to stick around or split with no hard feelings. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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I would quietly move on.

These are not opinions, they are beliefs.

 

You could as well try to convince a physicist on your belief that gravity is a hoax (trying to stay within our nonpolitical and nonreligious boundaries here).

 

It is rare that all members of a band agree on all important things but acceptance is paramount and they've let it be known that they will not accept some of your considerations.

It is not enough to not "discuss such matters", you've already got a good band that you are comfortable with so stay there.

Just tell them you are too busy and thanks.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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Being on opposite sides of the political divide doesn't have to be a problem. They should be more sensitive to the possibility that you have a different perspective. The fact that they use band texts to talk about this stuff without considering where you're at is disrespectful to you.

 

It also shows a lack of savoir faire, because keyboard players don't grow on trees. From strictly a make-the-band-happen point of view, you are not easily replaceable. The smarter approach for them would be to keep this stuff to themselves so you'll stick around.

 

When you add in the stuff about tensions regarding your interracial family, I feel it's a no brainer. Speaking for myself, I could not make music with that in the background.

 

You're calling it a "band" so you're not just coming together to do a job and get paid. What you're describing sounds like the worst of both worlds: less pay than a purely professional gig, but lacking the camaraderie that makes a real band worth the effort.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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Nothing to add, except that life is short and you should surround yourself with the most positive people you can find. But you already know that.

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Good suggestions from one and all here so far. Kind of mirrors a couple of situations I had to back away from myself. One was from a band of old friends I go back with to late 1969. All very talented but these days they feel compelled to share their politics quite freely and their world view is one I abhor. Heartbreaking.

 

I greatly respect how you feel about the situation you have outlined. You should be proud of yourself for walking away from it.

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Our current socio-political situation has given certain sorts of people the all-clear to come crawling out from under their rocks. They were that way all along, secretly, but now they're publicly revealing themselves to be...er...nasty, shall we say. They like being that way and have no intention of changing, so don't waste the time and effort to try to get them to change. Hatred, fear, and paranoia rule their world views. Logic, reason, and science have no place in their lives. Germs are inconvenient and so are deemed to be overrated or a hoax.

 

If you or your family get sick because of their attitude problems, then what? They apologize and that makes it all better? I don't think so. What if you or one of your family members die of Covid because of them? Was it worth it? Combine that with the racial animosity and it seems clear that they're akin to fair weather friends. They're only good to be around as long as the weather is clear. The weather turns and they're not such good friends anymore.

 

Yuk.

 

Run.

 

It's unfortunate, but it's not worth your health and potentially your life. You're not opting out of their lives, they're opting out of yours.

 

Grey

I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.

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Our current socio-political situation has given certain sorts of people the all-clear to come crawling out from under their rocks. They were that way all along, secretly, but now they're publicly revealing themselves to be...er...nasty, shall we say. They like being that way and have no intention of changing, so don't waste the time and effort to try to get them to change. Hatred, fear, and paranoia rule their world views. Logic, reason, and science have no place in their lives. Germs are inconvenient and so are deemed to be overrated or a hoax.

 

If you or your family get sick because of their attitude problems, then what? They apologize and that makes it all better? I don't think so. What if you or one of your family members die of Covid because of them? Was it worth it? Combine that with the racial animosity and it seems clear that they're akin to fair weather friends. They're only good to be around as long as the weather is clear. The weather turns and they're not such good friends anymore.

 

+1. "I'd love to quit Facebook, but if I did, how would I know which of my friends are racist?"

 

Cheers, Mike.

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Hey man, lots of advice here, and I don't know that I really have anything to add at this time. Mostly just wanted to let you know I hear you, and I understand how frustrating it is to find yourself left out to dry, put in danger, or otherwise disenchanted by the words and/or actions of friends, family, or acquaintances. Regardless of how easy or challenging it is to deal with it, walk away, or whatever course you take, it can be painful, disappointing, and deeply sad. I'm sorry you've been dealing with it. You're certainly not alone in it right now.

Samuel B. Lupowitz

Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.

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This isn't meant to be a political discussion about things ...

Are you being serious? The main topic of the post is that you don't approve of the political beliefs of your bandmates who "really sound ignorant" and you are projecting the same beliefs onto the people that attend the band's gigs because of what you assume to be a common religion and ancestry. As a result, you claim to feel uncomfortable and that certain members of your family feel unsafe.

 

If this isn't deemed to be a political thread by the mods, my questions would be:

 

1. If posting support for Cuomo, Fauci, and BLM (and disparaging those that don't) is OK, is there a list of other approved political figures/entities/positions that can be supported (or disparaged) without the post/thread being considered, "political"?

 

2. If it's OK to stereotype and disparage Irish and Catholics, is there a list of other approved nationalities and religions that can be stereotyped and disparaged? I'm pretty sure the list is limited to Christians on the religion side and Italians and Irish on the nationality side, but wanted to be sure. Don't want to waste my time flagging approved disparagement.

 

OK, I'll yield the remainder of my time so the virtue signaling and sanctimony can continue in the quest to claim moral and intellectual superiority.

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Sorry about your quandary. I agree with everyone, your health and family are more important than these guys. Especially if they're borderline racist.

 

Unfortunately, right now shame is one of the few tools we have to get ignorant people to wake up. They probably won't learn or grow from this, but perhaps give them the chance to. Bow out, but also tell them exactly why.

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This isn't meant to be a political discussion about things ...

Are you being serious? The main topic of the post is that you don't approve of the political beliefs of your bandmates who "really sound ignorant" and you are projecting the same beliefs onto the people that attend the band's gigs because of what you assume to be a common religion and ancestry. As a result, you claim to feel uncomfortable and that certain members of your family feel unsafe.

 

If this isn't deemed to be a political thread by the mods, my questions would be:

 

1. If posting support for Cuomo, Fauci, and BLM (and disparaging those that don't) is OK, is there a list of other approved political figures/entities/positions that can be supported (or disparaged) without the post/thread being considered, "political"?

 

2. If it's OK to stereotype and disparage Irish and Catholics, is there a list of other approved nationalities and religions that can be stereotyped and disparaged? I'm pretty sure the list is limited to Christians on the religion side and Italians and Irish on the nationality side, but wanted to be sure. Don't want to waste my time flagging approved disparagement.

 

OK, I'll yield the remainder of my time so the virtue signaling and sanctimony can continue in the quest to claim moral and intellectual superiority.

I see why you are reacting strongly, but I think you're reading a little more into Jason's comments than he intended. I didn't sense any disparaging of anyone's religion or culture, or making this about party politics. He gave us social context that while he has a shared history with these folks that he appreciates, he's never been fully a part of all of the cultural activities they partake in (particularly those around a cultural background that other band members share and he does not), which isn't a problem in and of itself. His concerns about their comments on political figures weren't due to "I don't like who they vote for," it was about them dismissing scientifically established public health procedures. As he mentioned, he works in public health, in a professional capacity, so that puts him in a position where he has to either keep quiet and be uncomfortable, or rock the boat by correcting their understanding of facts and procedures.

 

He mentioned a sense of general discomfort and lack of belonging with the audience at their shows. Obviously, one could quibble about whether that's due to the attitude of the band's audience, or his family's preconceptions, but it's a jump to call that stereotyping, and that's also not hearing his experience, which is what this post is about -- his experience. Obviously disparaging comments about BLM correlate to danger for his immediate family, for reasons Jason explained, but he didn't specifically state anyone's position, just that he "knows their feelings about" the current racial tensions and protests. This post was not intended to debate those points, but about how to deal in a professional and personal way with people that he has a relationship with whose beliefs are a real potential threat to his loved ones. He's looking for support and perhaps also advice, not trying to draw sides about religion or party.

 

I understand some of his concerns and how he expressed them may have rubbed you the wrong way, but I think even if we disagree with the very vague stance presented here (vague so as NOT to get into nitty-gritty political discussions) we can see the quandary at the center of the post, and constructively respond to that in support of our forum brother... or choose not to get involved.

Samuel B. Lupowitz

Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.

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MY philosophy here is everyone is entitled to their own ridiculous opinions! I have several musicians that I work with that are clearly not on my thought/belief path. I like making music with them, but will not discuss certain things with them. They are not going to change their minds nor will I so that is where I disengage. Music is about music, I just agree to disagree on the other stuff and tune it out!!! Music is fun, when it gets to a point it is not fun, adios amigo!

Jimmy

 

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho

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I'm in a few bands as a full time member. Each one of the players have their views on BLM, race, politics (democrats vs. republicans), Trump vs. Biden and many make assumptions as to how I may think simply because I'm particularly friendly with one member in the band who actually has different views than I do, but the rest of them assume I think politically like he does. So in one band there is Trump bashing, in another band there is Democrat bashing. I just don't get involved in the discussions; when they talk politics I either try to change the subject or just get up and walk away. That doesn't mean that I have to quit the bands, but I generally don't agree with any of the discussion.

 

What I would suggest is when this talk comes up (whatever it is that you don't want to talk about) just tell them that you don't want to engage in the discussion and request that they do the same when you're around. Rather then get frustrated about it just tell them that talking politics and religion is never a good thing, it doesn't get anyone anywhere and no one is going to change their position so there is no good to come out of it.

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Delaware Dave

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Unfortunately, right now shame is one of the few tools we have to get ignorant people to wake up. They probably won't learn or grow from this, but perhaps give them the chance to. Bow out, but also tell them exactly why.

 

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

 

The quote remains true. It is precisely because of this that we are in the position we're in. These people weren't "convinced" before, they were simply...forced underground by shame, I guess you could say. If you somehow manage to shame them again (and good luck with that...) then they will still be of the same opinion. You're not going to succeed in changing them. They want to be the way they are. It's an emotional matter to them, not a logical one, and you can't argue with an emotional person from a logical stance. They will never listen. They have a deeply vested interest in maintaining their "it's about personal choice" or "it's about freedom and patriotism" or "it's bogus" views, none of which are based in facts; they're based on emotions being inflamed by others with their own agendas. They're proud (note: another emotion) of their positions and see any attempt to change their minds as validation of their crackpot notions. You become the enemy. In their eyes, you're the one who's been duped by nefarious "others" and have no realistic basis for argument.

 

And at the end of the day, you'll still be at risk.

 

As far as the protest post above goes, this sort of thing is precisely why this needs to be talked about. Here is a real world case where someone's life is at risk because of peoples' ignorant attitudes. The person in question happens to be a musician, so he posts his problem here. Suppose he had a band mate with a habit of swilling large quantities of beer before driving the band's van between gigs. Would that discussion be fair game? The putative drunk driver would be putting the band members (and equipment) aboard the van at risk. The argument "well, I've done it lots of times and nothing's ever happened" gets advanced, and perhaps sways some minds, but I think most would agree that drinking and driving aren't a good combination, so anyone in that van would be in a state of elevated risk...yes? But--oh dearie, dearie me--it might offend someone to discuss the problem, because...I don't know, maybe they're worried that the drunk driver's reputation might be harmed or he might get arrested or something, so the attempt to talk about the problem is hushed up. Yet the risk remains, in spite of the attempt to tamp down on the discussion.

 

Nah. Stupid people who refuse to acknowledge that they're putting others at risk--for whatever tin hat or ignorant reason--need to be exposed. They are an active threat to the people around them. Worse yet, it's a threat that's growing as people deny the science of the matter. If, as a nation, we turn from science to superstition and ignorance, then we will all lose in the end.

 

Man, it's a cryin' shame that our nation has lost its spine. All it takes to bring us to our knees is a little piece of fabric across our mouths and noses. Suddenly, half the nation's reduced to whining, sniveling five year-olds who throw tantrums and refuse to do the right thing.

 

Can you imagine what would happen if we were confronted with an even more dire threat? Complete capitulation. The end of America.

 

Disgusting.

 

What happened to our "can do" attitude? I guess we've gone soft. Too much couch time. Too much junk food. Too much junk science. Too much abdication of reason and rational thought.

 

Bah!

 

Beam me up, Scotty. There's no intelligent life down here.

 

Grey

I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.

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Jason could have done a better job of masking the specifics of his disagreement. That aside, I don't think he intended it as a political thread nor does it have to be read that way. The issue is how you play music with people who hold beliefs that conflict with your own. I have to be critical of his bandmates not because of the specifics of their beliefs, but because of how they are letting those beliefs color their band relations. There's a right way and a wrong way to do this. They've botched it up and now they'll have to find another keyboard player.

 

You could flip everything Jason wrote to the reverse side (for instance, Jason could have written "they actually respect that fraud Fauci!"), and the point would be exactly the same.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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I think many of us have been in bands where members have had different political views and still thrived. Hell the best band I've been in during the last 20 years had a leader whose politics were the complete opposite of mine, but we got along great. The difference now is that politics can spill into the band in ways beyond philosophy - ways that affect work, finances, and health.

 

This is something that all of us who have been working in clubs post pandemic have had to deal with. I personally had to make some hard choices a few weeks ago that I know have affected some people's livelihoods. I was in conversation last night with a bartender who is really struggling financially, and who said she appreciated the tips she made the nights I was in that club.

 

This is hard stuff that goes way beyond whether you are red or blue. Best of luck Outkaster - whatever you decide. And thanks for posting.

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A different and I think separate generic issue here is whether you play in a band if your partner feels uncomfortable at gigs. Again, the specifics could change without changing the basic issue.

 

Again, I'd say if it's a professional gig and I'm there to make money, my wife doesn't need to feel warm and fuzzy about the vibe at the gig. But that's mostly a moot issue because, first, I don't play a lot of gigs like that, and second, those are not the gigs (i.e., a stranger's wedding) she wants to attend anyway.

 

If I'm playing in a band, she has to feel comfortable and welcome or it's a no go. For me this is too obvious to even discuss.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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This isn't meant to be a political discussion about things ...

Are you being serious? The main topic of the post is that you don't approve of the political beliefs of your bandmates who "really sound ignorant" and you are projecting the same beliefs onto the people that attend the band's gigs because of what you assume to be a common religion and ancestry. As a result, you claim to feel uncomfortable and that certain members of your family feel unsafe.

 

If this isn't deemed to be a political thread by the mods, my questions would be:

 

1. If posting support for Cuomo, Fauci, and BLM (and disparaging those that don't) is OK, is there a list of other approved political figures/entities/positions that can be supported (or disparaged) without the post/thread being considered, "political"?

 

2. If it's OK to stereotype and disparage Irish and Catholics, is there a list of other approved nationalities and religions that can be stereotyped and disparaged? I'm pretty sure the list is limited to Christians on the religion side and Italians and Irish on the nationality side, but wanted to be sure. Don't want to waste my time flagging approved disparagement.

 

OK, I'll yield the remainder of my time so the virtue signaling and sanctimony can continue in the quest to claim moral and intellectual superiority.

 

Of course I'm serious, I started the thread didn't I. I know about being Catholic as I have Italian heritage, lived there and grew up in that environment. Nothing is wrong with being Irish. You missed the point.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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Jason could have done a better job of masking the specifics of his disagreement. That aside, I don't think he intended it as a political thread nor does it have to be read that way. The issue is how you play music with people who hold beliefs that conflict with your own. I have to be critical of his bandmates not because of the specifics of their beliefs, but because of how they are letting those beliefs color their band relations. There's a right way and a wrong way to do this. They've botched it up and now they'll have to find another keyboard player.

 

You could flip everything Jason wrote to the reverse side (for instance, Jason could have written "they actually respect that fraud Fauci!"), and the point would be exactly the same.

 

Thanks you said it better than I did.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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I have ship-loads of thing to say to each of you.

 

And this is why we shouldn"t have this conversation on a keyboard- centric forum.

 

Fire away.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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I have been in bands where i disagree GREATLY politically with some members. They way it works is simple--keep political discussion the hell out of the band. Period. Talk about music, the thing we have in common.

 

That goes for work as well. My dad used to get picked on for having a different political view than all the other white middle-aged engineers :) I wouldn't put up with that shit, personally. No doubt that same willingness to harass anyone different extended to other areas as well (especially decades ago when he was working.)

 

If band members wouldn't respect that idea, I'd find another band. Wouldn't be any different than if they kept regaling everyone with stories about their sex life when asked to stop, or telling ethnic or gay jokes, or trying to convert others to their religion. If it's not welcome, and not part of the music aspect of the band, they need to zip it. If not, then I'll find a more professional environment (and I'm a weekend warrior, talking the attitude.)

 

 

As far as politics go, I will discuss them--I simply don't talk politics with anyone that is not going to be open-minded about what is factual and scientific, and willing to dig in futher and even change their views if the facts become clearerr...which means i really don't talk politics with many people.

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All I will say, so as to not break forum rules, is that everyone has a threshold of what they will and won't accept or tolerate in their social and professional circles. There are some things where I can agree to disagree and still maintain a professional relationship with someone, and then there are other things that are firm boundaries for me. Sometimes I can deal with it if I am a hired gun alongside someone who I disagree with, and sometimes I just have to refuse the gig.

 

As I learn more and try to be a better human being, sometimes it necessitates breaking some professional ties and even friendships, for the sake of our sanity and the protection of our loved ones.

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