Current crop of "Workstations"??

[Steve Nathan]

I friend has a (mostly demo) studio and has never had a real piano. An old Yamaha Motif has been their provided board forever, but it's gone kaput!

Business is down and margins are slim these days and they're asking if it's necessary to spend another 4-6 grand still.

I recommended they look at the Casio S3000 and Studiologic SL88, and avoid the Arturia someone had recommended. Some other players have recommended Nords, Korgs and Yammies, but I'm not familiar enough off the top of my head. My guess is they would still benefit from having something with internal sounds as they get a broad spectrum of writers and styles, and with limited time per song, it helps to be able to do a quick "category search" to get a ballpark sound quickly. They also have people occasionally who just want to sit down and hear a piano sound.

I think the budgetary goal here is something less than 3K, and they'd be thrilled to cover their bases for half that.

I personally like the action on the Casio a lot and it has mostly usable bread and butter sounds (except for those organs ). Again, most players are bringing in laptop rigs and just using it as a controller, but it still would be useful to have some internal sounds (speakers not necessary).

What's the general consensus?

Steve

[Biggles]

Roland Juno DS 76

 

Roland FA 07

 

Yamaha MODX 7

 

Or if Hammer action is preferred then how about a Roland RD88.

[Bobadohshe]

It all depends on the ratios of what sounds you want.

 

If it's:

 

80% piano, 15% rhodes / wurly, 5% other stuff, I would go: Yamaha CP4 or CP 88

 

If it's:

 

50% piano, 25% rhodes / wurly, 25% organ, I would go: Nord or Yamaha Montage

[Bif_]

Whatever you do, go used. You'll easily hit sub-$3K and possibly the $1.5K mark. Lots of choices in that price range.

 

I found a used Kurzweil Forte 88 for a friend for $2K. A stellar deal that would be hard to find, but deals are out there.

[Fleer]

Kurzweil PC4.

[jeffincltnc]

You can buy a new Fantom 8 for $3K with a summer rebate in place this month and one place in particular will sell at that price with shipping included.

[ElmerJFudd]

Hmmm. Yeah it depends on what their greatest use of the controller is for. You don"t need a high end workstation to get a nice weighted piano action but you do need to get close to $1k. Out of the options, no the S3000 would be one of the weaker choices simply because the keys are too short so you can"t trigger decent velocity values from close to the fall board if you can get a note to sound at all. It also feels closer to a semi weight synth action or a tight springy organ than a piano.

 

I"d look at Kawai ES110, ES8, Casio PX-360, 560 or 5S. The FA-08 is ok, cheaper would be an A-88 or new RD-88. A second hand CP-4 (CP-88 feels amazing, but it"s still pricey). MODX8 (there"s some complaining on reliability of the action but I"m not sure why, it"s same as a P series), used Yamaha P-255, Korg Grand Stage or SV-2.

[AnotherScott]

An old Yamaha Motif has been their provided board forever...My guess is they would still benefit from having something with internal sounds as they get a broad spectrum of writers and styles, and with limited time per song, it helps to be able to do a quick "category search" to get a ballpark sound quickly. They also have people occasionally who just want to sit down and hear a piano sound.

I think the budgetary goal here is something less than 3K, and they'd be thrilled to cover their bases for half that.

I personally like the action on the Casio a lot and it has mostly usable bread and butter sounds (except for those organs ). Again, most players are bringing in laptop rigs and just using it as a controller, but it still would be useful to have some internal sounds

 

If they were happy with the Motif, they would be happy with a Montage 8, and it's been around long enough that you should be able to find them used for well under your $3k cutoff, if used is an option for them. The MODX8 would be even cheaper, but it's a lesser action for the "sit down and play piano" clientele, and loses the aftertouch for those using it as a controller. The Roland Fantom 8 mentioned above is probably another strong choice.

 

Lower cost boards with above average piano actions and an easy interface for quickly finding sounds include Kawai MP7SE and Casio PX560. No aftertouch on these, if that matters, and the overall sound selection lag the Yamaha and Roland options I mentioned, but they might be sufficient.

[ElmerJFudd]

The Montage 8 is an amazing choice - Yamaha puts their nicest actions on their $2000+ boards. I prefer how the CP-88 feels for piano, but the Montage also plays and sounds excellent - not to mention the enormous sound set.

[gg22]

Korg Grandstage, Roland RD88, Kurzweil PC4, Yamaha MODX8.

[jimkost2002]

The Montage 8 is an amazing choice - Yamaha puts their nicest actions on their $2000+ boards. I prefer how the CP-88 feels for piano, but the Montage also plays and sounds excellent - not to mention the enormous sound set.

 

I second the vote for Montage 8. Best action, buttery smooth and responsive. In sone ways I prefer it to CP88.

[ajstan]

Again, most players are bringing in laptop rigs and just using it as a controller, but it still would be useful to have some internal sounds (speakers not necessary).Steve

Maybe take a look at whatever 88-key controller the crew here recommends for those that bring their laptops, and pair it with a MODX6 ($1,399 MAP) if synth sounds, pianos and a sequencer will suffice, or a YC61 ($1,999 MAP) if drawbars, pianos, a limited synth engine and no sequencer will be better. A less expensive option would be a VR09 ($999 MAP) if they want drawbars and the ability to pull up pianos and synths by category.

[Steve Nathan]

They have a NI midi Drawbar unit and VIs on a Mac Mini. The Montage 8 looks like it will feel familiar to them, but as a couple of folks have asked, they really don't care about the "workstation" functions much if at all. In order, it should have 88 note "Piano" action, & a broad selection of "bread & butter" sounds (EPs, synth-pads, leads and comping, strings, marimbas. horns, accordions, bells & whistles).

Is there a board like the Montage 8 but without the sequencing/arpeggiating/song building extras?

[CEB]

Yamaha discontinued the S90 series which would be perfect. They used the sam action as the Motif/Montages.

 

I really like the Kawai stuff. MPs have bread and butter sounds but not sure if it"s enough.

 

Yamaha S90XS was replaced with MODX8 but the action isn"t as good.

 

Yamaha CP-88 feels good but not enough sounds.

[ElmerJFudd]

They have a NI midi Drawbar unit and VIs on a Mac Mini. The Montage 8 looks like it will feel familiar to them, but as a couple of folks have asked, they really don't care about the "workstation" functions much if at all. In order, it should have 88 note "Piano" action, & a broad selection of "bread & butter" sounds (EPs, synth-pads, leads and comping, strings, marimbas. horns, accordions, bells & whistles).

Is there a board like the Montage 8 but without the sequencing/arpeggiating/song building extras?

 

Hi, the focus of the Montage, like the Kurzweil Forte, purposefully drifted away from workstation features being the focus to performance. Yamaha knowing that the majority of their customers are now using a DAW. If it"s in their budget, its sound palette is enormous compared to a Motif XF (741mb vs. 5.67gb in the Montage) and it comes with 1.75gb of flash RAM for user samples, samples from the Motif XF, or other packages like Chick"s Rhodes.

[AnotherScott]

Is there a board like the Montage 8 but without the sequencing/arpeggiating/song building extras?

In a way, that's the Montage 8 as originally shipped, before the OS updates that added back some of the sequencing/song building functions that so many people complained about losing when they moved from a Motif to a Montage. ;-)

[ElmerJFudd]

Ironic, right Scott? I think it suggests two totally different Yamaha users. Clearly there is a split in how their flagship is being used between those that do Computer DAW and those that still like to work in the keyboard.

[DaveMcM]

Hmmm. Yeah it depends on what their greatest use of the controller is for. You don"t need a high end workstation to get a nice weighted piano action but you do need to get close to $1k. Out of the options, no the S3000 would be one of the weaker choices simply because the keys are too short so you can"t trigger decent velocity values from close to the fall board if you can get a note to sound at all. It also feels closer to a semi weight synth action or a tight springy organ than a piano.

 

I"d look at Kawai ES110, ES8, Casio PX-360, 560 or 5S. The FA-08 is ok, cheaper would be an A-88 or new RD-88. A second hand CP-4 (CP-88 feels amazing, but it"s still pricey). MODX8 (there"s some complaining on reliability of the action but I"m not sure why, it"s same as a P series), used Yamaha P-255, Korg Grand Stage or SV-2.

 

Not trying to derail the topic or pick on anyone, honest, but here's a passing thought... Regarding the S3000 action. I agree that the short keys can be an issue. But do you think the complaints about the S1000/3000 could at least in part be due to them being Casio? I just find it interesting that another fairly recent 88 note ultra lightweight keyboard has a thread that has had 242,586 views and 754 responses. And a number of those responses were praising the keybed. I had purchased one myself and had to send it back because I couldn't deal with all the missed notes, and I can get used to just about anything keyboard wise.

 

So back to the real topic, I had a strictly piano gig some months ago so I took my Promega 3 which is a beast to haul around but still one of the best DP's IMO. I quickly realized that just playing my GSI DMC-120/Gemini has done nothing for my piano chops. So I visited Sweetwater to bring home an 88 note weighted action DP. After playing them all, I chose the Casio PX-560. The textured key surfaces feel great. The weighted action is very playable and the triple sensor key contact system allows for a great 'finger to sound' experience. The piano sounds, both acoustic and electro-mechanical are very good. There are a ton of other good sounds as well. And in a studio situation where various folks may not be familiar with the keyboard, the PX-560 makes it extremely easy to find sounds of any type. It does have a 17 track sequencer, built-in styles and internal speakers, which are not necessary according to the OP, but so what, they don't have to be used. Although the auto-accompaniment section can certainly be a helpful song writing tool. At any rate, the PX-560 should be considered along with the others mentioned.

[AnotherScott]

But do you think the complaints about the S1000/3000 could at least in part be due to them being Casio's? I just find it interesting that another fairly recent 88 note ultra lightweight keyboard has a thread that has had 242,586 views and 754 responses. And a number of those responses were praising the keybed. I had purchased one myself and had to send it back because I couldn't deal with all the missed notes, and I can get used to just about anything keyboard wise.

The Numa Compact 2/2X key feel is judged by a different standard. It's not a hammer action. For piano, it is not going to be as good as the S1000/S3000, but most probably find it better than most other non-hammer boards in its price range (e.g. the 61 Korg Kross, Roland Juno, Yamaha MX, and the non-hammer Casios), especially considering that it's 88 keys with aftertouch besides.

 

I visited Sweetwater to bring home an 88 note weighted action DP. After playing them all, I chose the Casio PX-560. The textured key surfaces feel great. The weighted action is very playable and the triple sensor key contact system allows for a great 'finger to sound' experience. The piano sounds, both acoustic and electro-mechanical are very good. There are a ton of other good sounds as well. And in a studio situation where various folks may not be familiar with the keyboard, the PX-560 makes it extremely easy to find sounds of any type.

Yeah, I mentioned the PX560 too, great board. I wish they'd update the PX5S with the 560's touchscreen interface (even in lieu of its battery operation). I don't think the 3rd-sensor performance is so good, the placement seems too high, so I'm not sure it provides much advantage over 2 sensors. But it does feel nice to play. If you haven't, check out Dave Weiser's downloadable new EP patches for it at https://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/files/category/40-privia-px-560/

[Steve Nathan]

PX560 looks good. Does it include sustain AND expression pedal jacks?

[HSS]

Given that slim finances are an issue, I would add for consideration the Casio CGP700 which can be picked up used for around $400 -$500. The CGP700 has the same good tri-sensor hammer action and easy-to-use touch-screen interface as the Casio PX-560, along with hundreds of sounds, pitch bend, a sequencer, auto-accompaniment, and a really good built-in speaker system . Although it's piano sounds aren't quite as good as the PX160/360/560 or the new PX S1000/3000 series, IMHO they're still pretty good. The CGP700 has USB midi so it can always be used to trigger software pianos if the onboard pianos aren't up to snuff. After the CGP700 is easily disconnected from its speaker stand, it's as portable as the PX models and can be used for gigging.

[AnotherScott]

PX560 looks good. Does it include sustain AND expression pedal jacks?

Yes.

 

Given that slim finances are an issue, I would add for consideration the Casio CGP700

If it's for a studio, where you never know what someone might bring with them that they'd like to connect, I wouldn't get anything without 5-pin MIDI connectors. Mod wheel is a good thing to have too.

[DaveMcM]

PX560 looks good. Does it include sustain AND expression pedal jacks?

 

Yes it does. And the Mod wheel like the Exp. pedal can be routed to a number of different destinations.

 

One thing to point out, while the PX-560 does have standard MIDI 5pin DIN as well as MIDI over USB, the instrument is not to be considered as the heart of a MIDI system. Meaning it is as capable as anything else to connect to a DAW and act as the keyboard input device. But there are no MIDI Master Controller functions. It didn't sound like that was an issue, so probably not worth even mentioning but still wanted to point it out.

[ElmerJFudd]

I have the PX-560, I picked it up for being light weight, has internal speakers, a nice pallette of Casio's better sounds (Pianos, EPs, guitars and basses, strings, brass, etc.) plus a lot of the synth tones from the PX-5S. Touch screen interface, does splits, layers over 4 zones. I think they say it can do 14 layers, I have no need for that, but impressive. I prefer the action on it to the S3000 by a long shot (plays like the 5S and other previous Casio PX models - the complaint is the action is noisier than some other designs. But the keys have a nice swing to them.) Yes, it has sustain and expression jacks and the price for what you get is excellent.

[HSS]

PX560 looks good. Does it include sustain AND expression pedal jacks?

Yes.

 

Given that slim finances are an issue, I would add for consideration the Casio CGP700

If it's for a studio, where you never know what someone might bring with them that they'd like to connect, I wouldn't get anything without 5-pin MIDI connectors. Mod wheel is a good thing to have too.

Good points about a mod wheel and standard 5-pin DIN midi. That's precisely why I picked up a Midiplus USB midi host for $60 for the CGP700 so I can midi it to my NE5d. The OP might want to also consider a Yamaha MX88 as well. It has decent legacy Motif piano and other sounds, fully-weighted action, standard 5-pin DIN and USB midi, and pitch bend /; mod wheels. I picked one up a couple of years ago used for $700. I think it sells new for $1000. Even though its action is theoretically the same (GHS ) as the more expensive MODX8's, I prefer the MX88's... Go figure.

[ElmerJFudd]

Good call, in that price range I forgot about the MX88. Also worth a look if in the PX-560 price range.

[DaveMcM]

Yeah, I mentioned the PX560 too, great board. I wish they'd update the PX5S with the 560's touchscreen interface (even in lieu of its battery operation). I don't think the 3rd-sensor performance is so good, the placement seems too high, so I'm not sure it provides much advantage over 2 sensors. But it does feel nice to play. If you haven't, check out Dave Weiser's downloadable new EP patches for it at https://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/files/category/40-privia-px-560/

 

Not that this is something you would really take advantage of while playing, but I noticed something the other day on the PX-560 that got me thinking maybe that's one of the reasons it feels so nice to play. Try this; call up a piano sound, play and hold a key down, then while the sound is still decaying, allow the key to come up slightly but not enough to cause the damper to stop the sound, then press the key down again. You will hear the hammer re-strike the string. Same thing happens if I do this on my acoustic baby grand. But not on any other electronic keyboard I have.

 

 

I downloaded the Weisner EP patches a while back. They're nice.

[AnotherScott]

Not that this is something you would really take advantage of while playing, but I noticed something the other day on the PX-560 that got me thinking maybe that's one of the reasons it feels so nice to play. Try this; call up a piano sound, play and hold a key down, then while the sound is still decaying, allow the key to come up slightly but not enough to cause the damper to stop the sound, then press the key down again. You will hear the hammer re-strike the string. Same thing happens if I do this on my acoustic baby grand. But not on any other electronic keyboard I have.

The ability to do that (without having the sustain pedal depressed) is literally the exact function of having the third sensor, to be able to restrike a key without having to lift it so high so as to silence it first. I happen to have preferred the implementation on some other boards (you can lift the key even less high), but you're definitely taking advantage of the Casio's third sensor there!

[HSS]

Good call, in that price range I forgot about the MX88. Also worth a look if in the PX-560 price range.

Yeah, the PX560 is excellent value for the money. I went with it's stripped-down little brother the CGP700 (same action and touch screen) because I'm just a weekend warrior and a cheapskate. My "cheapness" addiction is also the main reason I went for the MX88 over the MODX8.

 

I would add that after many years of being a Buffett-esque value investor, I'm a firm believer that you don't always get what you pay for.

[Mighty Motif Max]

I friend has a (mostly demo) studio and has never had a real piano. An old Yamaha Motif has been their provided board forever, but it's gone kaput!

...My guess is they would still benefit from having something with internal sounds as they get a broad spectrum of writers and styles, and with limited time per song, it helps to be able to do a quick "category search" to get a ballpark sound quickly. They also have people occasionally who just want to sit down and hear a piano sound.

I think the budgetary goal here is something less than 3K, and they'd be thrilled to cover their bases for half that.

They have a NI midi Drawbar unit and VIs on a Mac Mini. The Montage 8 looks like it will feel familiar to them, but as a couple of folks have asked, they really don't care about the "workstation" functions much if at all. In order, it should have 88 note "Piano" action, & a broad selection of "bread & butter" sounds (EPs, synth-pads, leads and comping, strings, marimbas. horns, accordions, bells & whistles).

Is there a board like the Montage 8 but without the sequencing/arpeggiating/song building extras?

 

This is my personal opinion, but if they want a good selection of those types of sounds that sound good enough to make a good demo (being that they"re paid to do so), I wouldn"t suggest a Casio at all. Some of Casio"s sounds have improved noticeably through the years, but there"s no way that they can cover all those sounds with good quality. At least not to my liking. Like I said, since the studio is doing demos as a business, they"re going to want good quality quickly. So merely adequate sounds probably isn"t the way to go.

 

Since they"re used to the Motif, I"m going to suggest either the Yamaha MX88, MODX-8, or on the higher end, the Montage of course. Since they don"t need onboard sequencing and such any of those would do fine. The MX has the previous generation soundset and only two sounds at a time (without using an editor), versus the MODX has the newer Montage sounds plus FM plus the Motif XF soundset and backwards compatibility with several Motif models. The XF soundset is quite good still so it"s not like the MX would really sound outdated.

 

Otherwise, a Kurzweil PC4 would be my second choice, unless they wanted to spend more on a Forte. Very strong on orchestral sounds for sure plus faders if someone wanted to simulate drawbars.

 

A Korg Krome EX would be an option as well, but it"s not as strong on percussion and marimba-type sounds as the others.