Music Player Network
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#3057190 08/05/20 12:47 AM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 56
Likes: 6
Senior Member
OP Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 56
Likes: 6
A recent question over on Ronan's Recording Bootcamp group on Facebook got me thinking about adding a subwoofer to my mixing speakers. I currently have a pair of JBL LSR305's. I was thinking about adding the JBL LSR10S; however, I don't have a great place to put the sub. The photo below gives you a basic idea of the layout. The only real place I could put the sub is behind the speaker on the right. This would put the sub against the wall and on the other side of the desk from me. Is that feasible, or will it create more problems than it solves? I may be able to squeeze it under my desk on the right. That would put it right under my right ear. Would that be a better or worse placement?

Also, a meta question, what's the difference between this forum and Dr. Mike's forum? What questions or topics should get posted in which forum?

[Linked Image from patwaaramusic.com]

Thanks for any guidance you can give me.

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 5,308
Likes: 692
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 5,308
Likes: 692
As a soundman mentor once said to me "Bass is like a gas". It is omni directional. Since you will have one subwoofer you don't have to worry as much about active phase cancellation.

The room could cause passive phase cancellation and positioning can cause other anomolies (some notes boom out or stuff in the room starts rattling). The famous one is the "corner bass boost", I've put smaller bass amps in the corner at gigs many times and it helps them punch beyond their weight every time. But, it isn't an even amplification of frequencies and it varies from room to room and surface to surface. Sometimes it doesn't really sound all that great, except on the notes where it does.

I would just pick a couple of favorite CDs that have good sounding low end and try playing them with and without the subwoofer - in different positions.
When you find the spot that doesn't sound wrong, put it there and keep an ear on it. Eventually, you'll find where it wants to be. And yes, it gets to choose!!!!


It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,038
Likes: 41
MPN Advisory Board
Platinum Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
Platinum Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,038
Likes: 41
There are ways to optimize the placement of a subwoofer, but they all assume that you have plenty of room to experiment. One consideration is whether you want (or expect) the subwoofer to be a smooth extension of your main speakers, or if you just want to be able to hear notes that are lower than your main speaker can reproduce. I suspect that with your main speakers, the best you will be able to do is the latter.

You could start with the subwoofer under the desk - hopefully there's enough room under there so you won't be kicking it all the time - or maybe try it in a front, or a rear corner of the room. As Kuru said, bass is fairly omnidirectional. What you'll want to shoot for in your placement is to find a place where there isn't a single or couple of notes that are highly exaggerated. That's what you're hearing when a car comes down the street thumping to music that you can barely hear.

Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 56
Likes: 6
Senior Member
OP Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 56
Likes: 6
Thanks, guys. The sub has to be relatively close to my mixer because, as I understand it, the L&R monitor outs from my mixer will go into the sub, and then the L&R outs from the sub will feed my LSR305's. The reason I'm leaning toward the JBL LSR310S is that it was designed to go the the LSR305's and LSR308's. My goal of adding the sub is to hear a better representation of the low end in my mixes. I don't think I can get it here on the island, so I want to make sure it is at least feasible before I order it. (It most likely be shipped parcel post due to its weight, which means it will take at least a month to get here.)

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 5,308
Likes: 692
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 5,308
Likes: 692
Another possible option - despite so many engineers saying "Never do this..." is to get a set of nice covered ear headphones with extended bass response.
Smaller, ligher and easily placed with no room anomolies. You might already have some.

I really don't see anything wrong with using headphones as part of your mixing system. If you only use headphones then you might cause yourself some probems. As a reference for the bottom end? Not as long as you check on other systems.

Again with the favorite and familiar CDs, you can learn how your headphones sound by listening to music you like. If your records sound very different in the low end there may be a problem. Or your recordings may just sound great in a different way.


It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,751
Likes: 180
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,751
Likes: 180
Bass frequencies from subwoofers in a small room 1) radiate and aren't very directional (IE omnidirectional) 2) can't develop their wavelengths if the room is not big enough and 3) you won't feel/hear them if they are too close to you.

I understand the limitations with the room, but if the subwoofer is too close to your listening perspective then you will not hear much of it. I discovered this in my studio and had to place the subwoofer at least six feet away.

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 680
Likes: 48
N
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
N
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 680
Likes: 48
The other clever thing you can do is put the subwoofer where you sit and then walk around the room (it is faster than moving the sub around and going back to your listening position).

If you ended up getting REW and a measurement mic, this becomes very easy. Put the mic where your head goes, and then just move the sub around until you get best response and flatness ( or again, move the mic stand around and put the sub where your chair is).

You may need to buy/make longer cables to go from sub to monitors if that is how you will connect it.

It is worth it to make an effort to site the sub well - it's like real estate: location, location, location. When a sub is nicely integrated it is a good thing to have.

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,038
Likes: 41
MPN Advisory Board
Platinum Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
Platinum Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,038
Likes: 41
Originally Posted by Pat Waara
The sub has to be relatively close to my mixer because, as I understand it, the L&R monitor outs from my mixer will go into the sub, and then the L&R outs from the sub will feed my LSR305's.

All of the power amplifiers are in the speaker boxes. The connections between the interface, the subwoofer (where the low frequency crossover filter that keeps the lows out of the main speakers resides), and the main speakers are all low power and don't require welding cables to deliver full power to the speakers. Longer cables are a no-risk option as long as you don't trip over them. wink

Quote
The reason I'm leaning toward the JBL LSR310S is that it was designed to go the the LSR305's and LSR308's.

It never hurts to take a reputable manufacturer's recommendation when it comes to choosing a decently matching box. If you look into other subs, be sure to make sure that the wiring between them and your main speakers is compatible. It nearly always is, but be sure or be ready to do a little tweaking or modifying.




My goal of adding the sub is to hear a better representation of the low end in my mixes. I don't think I can get it here on the island, so I want to make sure it is at least feasible before I order it. (It most likely be shipped parcel post due to its weight, which means it will take at least a month to get here.)[/quote]

Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 22,253
Likes: 552
5x KCFFL Champ
20k Club
Offline
5x KCFFL Champ
20k Club
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 22,253
Likes: 552
Originally Posted by Pat Waara
Also, a meta question, what's the difference between this forum and Dr. Mike's forum? What questions or topics should get posted in which forum?
I'm not sure there's a hard line. idk

For me, I think of this forum as more for higher end stuff. It was originally intended to be inhabited by folks who make records for a living...like brother Ronan, for example.

Obviously, there's gonna be some cross population. We'll see where it goes, I guess...

dB

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 5,308
Likes: 692
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 5,308
Likes: 692
Originally Posted by Dave Bryce
Originally Posted by Pat Waara
Also, a meta question, what's the difference between this forum and Dr. Mike's forum? What questions or topics should get posted in which forum?
I'm not sure there's a hard line. idk

For me, I think of this forum as more for higher end stuff. It was originally intended to be inhabited by folks who make records for a living...like brother Ronan, for example.

Obviously, there's gonna be some cross population. We'll see where it goes, I guess...

dB

I started on the last page of this forum and have been surf/scanning for interesting threads. I am now at page 102. There are TONS of threads where relative newcomers without established reputations ask for help on a topic. Some of those are among the best threads on the entire forum.

I skim because I don't feel much need to re-hash ADAT or the all-in-one Roland recorders from 2002 ( a friend still uses one and swears by it ) or the famous "digital vs analog" wars. Some of the threads contain some spectacular snark but also considerable hostility so I think MPN is at a better place overall now.

Worth a look for inquisitive minds! Cheers, Kuru


It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 22,253
Likes: 552
5x KCFFL Champ
20k Club
Offline
5x KCFFL Champ
20k Club
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 22,253
Likes: 552
Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
There are TONS of threads where relative newcomers without established reputations ask for help on a topic. Some of those are among the best threads on the entire forum.
Yep.

It can reasonably be argued that this forum was the genesis of Gearslutz. Brother Jules Standen (Gearslutz founder) was a member of MPN for years before he started GS - used to run a studio in London called The Library, if memory serves.

dB

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 5,308
Likes: 692
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 5,308
Likes: 692
Originally Posted by Dave Bryce
Yep.

It can reasonably be argued that this forum was the genesis of Gearslutz. Brother Jules Standen (Gearslutz founder) was a member of MPN for years before he started GS - used to run a studio in London called The Library, if memory serves.

dB


I take a look at Gearslutz when I am wanting to find more opinions on a particular piece of gear. I haven't joined, signal to noise ratio is a bit out of whack pretty often.


It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 56
Likes: 6
Senior Member
OP Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 56
Likes: 6
A quick update on the sub. It turns out our local music store had them in stock. (I am really starting to love that place--friendly, knowledgeable, and internet prices. Only partially open now due to Covid, but you can order by phone and pick up outside.) The sub turned out to be way bigger than I had anticipated, so it wouldn't fit in either place I had picked out. I rearranged my studio space and found a place in the left corner that seems to be working well. It's only temporary for now as I need to get some cables for it to be neatly placed there. I also ordered a couple of extra cables in case I decide to move it to the back corner where it could also work. For now, though, it sounds pretty good. I am definitely hearing some things in some ambient tunes I like that I just never heard before. The overall sound upgrade is significant. Once I get the appropriate cables, maybe I'll share a photo. The cables should be here in about a week.

There doesn't appear to be an easy way to switch between using it and not. The closest I think I could do to get the effect is set the crossover to external and turn the volume all the way down. Other than that, I think you would have to change cables. Oh well, it's probably my best sounding setup, so I'll use other systems to listen to mixes.

Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 56
Likes: 6
Senior Member
OP Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 56
Likes: 6
Ok, to closeout this thread, here is the JBL subwoofer in its final location. Tidied things up with new cables and mounted my monitor on the wall so it wouldn't be so high. The sub sounds good. It's not overpowering, but definitely fills out the sound nicely. I've been listening to some older mixes and now with the sub, I would have mixed them differently. I plan to rework a few of my more recent songs, maybe even make an EP out of them, so it will be interesting to listen to them in this new context. But first, I need to re-record the vocals on all of them. That, however, is the subject for a different post.

[Linked Image from patwaaramusic.com]

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 5,308
Likes: 692
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 5,308
Likes: 692
Looks great Pat!

Would love to have a subwoofer in my monitor system. The one Mackie made for the HR824s is huge - 15" woofer, and expensive even used.
So I will do without for now.

I've gor a reference system with a pair of JBL P40s, they are home stereo speakers. At moderate volumes the bass response is pretty deep. Better than nothing I guess...

And htere are always headphones. Maybe not the best but they do go deep so there is something to be learned there too.


It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.

Moderated by  gm 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5