uhoh7 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Don Quixote has nothing on this guy. Maybe you thought you were a discerning man of actions......well between a forte and a steinway lies a vast gulf in the size of the keys and the result of hitting them. [video:youtube] We all know how anal these classical folks are about exactly reflecting the desire of the composers. What if they have been doing it wrong the whole time? It's a question tied up with fortepiano design and time notation, and it is perhaps the hottest topic with many in that circle today, and getting hotter. How would you prove your point? 1) Have an exact replica of one of Beethoven's fortes made for you. If you check his videos you will see the whole process. 2) Bring in a wunderkind to play Beethoven at "modern" speed on the instrument. It has just happened in the video above. 3) Have him play Beethoven at what you, and others believe was the true speed intended, despite all the ridicule you have suffered for this belief. He has a ton of interesting videos related to this crazy quest, and many others which suggest we have Beethoven-Liszt utterly wrong in some other ways as well. Which just cracks me up. I found him reserching clavichords, about which I knew very little. They were adored in the day and were in wide use hundreds of years before the Harpsichord. Here he compared three: [video:youtube] I love these clavichords! Aftertouch for real. Now he is making everyone hear these sonatas at about half speed I think. They are going nuts. They all thought the lighter action of the forte is what allowed the blistering pace we all know. Turns out the heavy modern action will support far faster playing. Essentially the speeds we know were impossible---and well, he has the rig to make the case now. Is this how it really sounded? [video:youtube] The comments are priceless. All the pompous critics, maestros, and professors may have been desecrating Beethoven for 150 years. I imagine a more "woke" dude, "Look, Bee-man is so friggin tedious, but if you play it double speed.......cool!" I will never remonstrate myself for a slow practice tempo again. Quote RT-3/U-121/Leslie 21H and 760/Saltarelle Nuage/MOXF6/MIDIhub, SL-880/Nektar T4/Numa Cx2/Deepmind12/Virus TI 61/SL61 mk2 Stylophone R8/Behringer RD-8/Proteus 1/MP-7/Zynthian 4 MPC1k/JV1010/Unitor 8/Model D & 2600/WX-5&7/VL70m/DMP-18 Pedals Natal drums/congas etc & misc bowed/plucked/blown instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Mike Metlay Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 In the words of Tori Amos: "Where did that rule come from, and what dead guy thought it up?" I absolutely love this, for entirely selfish and not terribly sensitive reasons. And yes, clavichords were the first instruments with aftertouch, and remember that "aftertouch" on the Mellotron was an accidental design flaw exploited by players. Quote Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1 clicky!: more about me ~ my radio station (and my fam) ~ my local tribe ~ my day job ~ my book ~ my music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 And I guess it can cut both ways: [video:youtube] Cheers, Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanael_I Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Thanks for sharing this. I enjoyed it. The recording for four-hands piano of Beethoven's 5th Symphony feels great. I'm not qualified to say whether the academic work is correct, but the music feels great. I don't feel cheated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
confidence Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Is this how it really sounded? [video:youtube] I very much doubt it, given the tempo markings that Beethoven himself wrote on his score. The second movement is marked Prestissimo FFS, That's the very fastest tempo that there's a word for - what you get when allegro isn't enough, molto allegro still isn't enough and even presto STILL isn't enough. Can you seriously listen from 9.41 and tell me that's what you're hearing? It's great that we have Youtube and people can get this stuff out there, and I love a good obsession as much as the next man. But Opus 109 is one of my favourite sonatas and really . . . just no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 Is this how it really sounded? [video:youtube] I very much doubt it, given the tempo markings that Beethoven himself wrote on his score. The second movement is marked Prestissimo FFS, That's the very fastest tempo that there's a word for - what you get when allegro isn't enough, molto allegro still isn't enough and even presto STILL isn't enough. Can you seriously listen from 9.41 and tell me that's what you're hearing? It's great that we have Youtube and people can get this stuff out there, and I love a good obsession as much as the next man. But Opus 109 is one of my favourite sonatas and really . . . just no. Very interesting, I have to put that to him and see what he says, or better you should in his comments. He is very nice really, and if it really is as you say, it's an interesting, strong point. He must have considered it. He has been at this a long time now. However "prestissimo" on a forte will be much slower than on a modern grand, or this is what he believes not without considerable work to find out. The forte he had built is jaw-dropping. What we think of as virtuoso simply did not exist in 1800, he puts forward. Bach and Beethoven were not superhuman gods. He has a detailed case that Liszt quit playing in public when confronted by a new generation of speed demons. I know this is true of alpine ski racing. The bar was knee high in 1968 compared to 2020 in terms of both athletes and equipment. So many fewer pursuing the sport. How many had access to a forte in 1820? Wim makes the case with many many examples, especially Czerny, where modern beats are impossible at the written metronome speeds. He uses many original sources to refute ideas like "those are aspirational speeds", and the constant complaining by composers that their pieces were played too fast. I will never know enough to have a valid opinion about it, but I know I have learned alot about many aspects of the music and the instruments from him as he explains his deep and highly researched belief. His first focus was organ. Real organs. In this context the Hammond is the clone LOL: [video:youtube] Quote RT-3/U-121/Leslie 21H and 760/Saltarelle Nuage/MOXF6/MIDIhub, SL-880/Nektar T4/Numa Cx2/Deepmind12/Virus TI 61/SL61 mk2 Stylophone R8/Behringer RD-8/Proteus 1/MP-7/Zynthian 4 MPC1k/JV1010/Unitor 8/Model D & 2600/WX-5&7/VL70m/DMP-18 Pedals Natal drums/congas etc & misc bowed/plucked/blown instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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