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"How do you find a keyboardist who wants to play?"


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On FB there is a "musicians wanted" group for my local area (Southern Tier NY). Our area is predominantly classic rock. EDM is only in college town Ithaca NY.

 

A guitar player had posted "How do you find a keyboardist who wants to play?"

 

Well I couldn't resist the opportunity to express the frustrations many keyboard players have with guitar players - play all the time, play loud enough so we can't be heard, dominate the set list to guitar songs, nothing for keyboard players to do except double barre chords (YAWN), keyboard players tired of "wallpaper" roles while guitar players hog the spotlight, et al.

 

I had played as a keyboardist in the area for 30+ years and had watched fellow keyboardists quit the gigging nightlife because they no longer enjoyed it. I turned down offers to join bands because the guitar was the dominant instrument. SRV or Eric Clapton cover band? Not interested. Local guitar prodigy? Not interested. Guitar hero cover band? Not interested.

 

There's a growing trend of fewer people are learning to play keyboards because all that practice is too hard, learning to play guitar is much easier. The net effect is today we have 20 times more guitar players than keyboard players.

 

Go to bandmix.com and count how many guitar players on there vs keyboard players. There are a handful of competent keyboard players still around but we're being very selective. We're a dying breed, and an audience member did tell me that.

 

I closed by stating if you want to find a keyboardist who wants to play then make it worth their while.

 

That was almost a week ago... crickets. I don't think the OP was expecting a response like that. The sole reply was from a non-guitar playing songwriter who applauded my bravery to speak out, who was also frustrated trying to find keyboard players and thanked me for helping them understand better.

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there are a few problems. And I also play guitar

 

Its ego with many guitarists, etc. They often are unaware of it.

 

I am always interested in 50/50 collaboration

 

But that sounds like a ' rule ' to musicians. And that's the another problem,

many musicians want ' try as you go ',, or. ' lets see what happens ''

 

What I have bumped into, is that talented guitarists want my keyboard skills as ' backing tracks'

 

And F*&^ that . They can find a midi file.

 

As I have posted here " Control Your Destiny " topic.

 

Seems like I am one of the few here that believe and practice that.

 

Its better to Control Your Destiny vs 30 years of bitc^%$ about stuff.

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

My Soundcloud with many originals:

[70's Songwriter]

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I'll play with guitar players who share the collaboration, but they're few and far between.

 

The problem ones are those with egos. They're not always visible. I worked with one whose ego slowly surfaced and found myself playing less and less keyboards.

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Well as a guitarist and only recently a piano player. Remember Mr Ten Fingers that you're favorite range to play is the only range a guitarist has so try moving. Jazz legend Sonny Rollins was asked why he uses guitar players more than piano, Sonny said piano is too big an instrument and tends to step on everyone toes. Ask the bass player for his input.

 

There two sides to the coin. If everyone talks and works together there's room for everyone.

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A guitar player had posted "How do you find a keyboardist who wants to play?"

 

Actually the way I'm reading this is "How do you find a keyboardist who is willing to pull himself out of his home studio and play in my band?" Keyboard players today are used to having total control through their productions, while guitar players control by dominating the stage.

 

And the two seldom meet anymore.

 

And BTW keyboard players are winning this battle - big time. All you have to do is listen to what's on the charts.

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...Its better to Control Your Destiny vs 30 years of bitc^%$ about stuff.

 

Wait... what? Without bitc$*#&, the web as we know it would cease to exist, leaving behind a black hole so gravitationally dense that the entire internet could not escape. Anyone under the age of 25 would be forced out of their basements and the rest of us would be having to interact with them in the real world. Life would never be the same. So... I say no.

I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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1) I have posted many times to the effect that no one, regardless of what instrument they play, wants a bass player who plays more than the bare minimum. Whole notes. Half notes. Quarter notes. Maybe, if you're a good boy, you'll be allowed to play an eighth note once per gig. Maybe. Don't press your luck.

2) I absolutely, positively HATE 12-bar I-IV-V progressions. They are the worst of the fucking worst for bass players--at least bass players like me. It's all about the guitar player (and, yes, sometimes the keyboard player). There are scads of bass players out there who are okay with that crap. Go get one of them. Don't call me. Don't get me wrong, I like Stevie Ray Vaughn's [fill in other names, as needed] stuff, but being in Double Trouble would be the death of me.

3) I would kill to have a "real" keyboard player to play with. I would like, ideally, to be able to move from instrument to instrument, depending on the requirements of the song. Perhaps even playing "rhythm" keyboards whilst the real keyboard player does something fun (I'm not likely to be a "lead" keyboard player anytime in the near future...or even far future). Then I'd move back to bass or guitar, depending. Something remotely like the way Greg Lake functioned in ELP. I also have other instruments on hand, but am happier on strings.

4) Keyboard players are scarce here too, but then musicians, particularly musicians who will consider original material are nonexistent in this area, so that's not saying much.

5) Being a bass/guitar player, I don't necessarily see guitarists as the enemy, but I'm not blind to the fact that it does happen. I've got stories, too, just from the bass POV as opposed to keys.

 

*sigh*

Okay, rant over. Back to you guys.

 

Grey

I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.

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Well then, that settles that...

 

I could take offense, being a guitarist and all. If nobody minds, I'll just poke a bit at the sweeping generalizations. At the same time, I do get your point - just gonna say it is not universal truth by any means.

Maybe more of a "circle the wagons, o' ye of keyboardish tendencies" sort of a deal?

 

Believe me, with the exception of a few misguided and incomprehensible souls, EVERYBODY is tired of Clapton or Stevie Ray "cover" bands. Can we please throw Grateful Dead tribute bands under the same bus?

They all fall under the "dudes pretending to be more gooder than what their meagre talent would suggest" category.

 

And the too loud thing is rampant, hard to say who to blame? Drummers buy the kits their heros use, how do you play one of those sets quietly? Then the bassist turns up so they can hear themselves, not realizing that they are throwing a wall of volume out about 30 feet. The vocalist starts asking the sound guy to turn up the monitors, while holding the mic in a way that turns it into an omni-directional feedback machine. The guitarist hears this roaring mass of almost good stuff and turns up the amp until it "sounds good", not realizing that they've brought a sledgehammer to swat flies. Had a keyboard player who put his amp on the floor behind him and turned it way up. I was on the other side of the stage. I asked him once "You got ears in your ass?" and he just looked at me like I was insane. I showed him my amp stand, aimed my speaker at my actual ears. Weird.

 

Guitar is popular for different reasons than the one you suggest, it is more mobile (ever take your piano to a beach jam - didn't think so...), it is incredibly affordable - sometimes for fun I take a "$100 gig rig" out and play it, that's total cost for a guitar, amp and cord that sound pretty damn good mic'ed up. All used gear, there are tons more used guitars and amps on the market than keyboards stuffs - even including the little plastic Casios and Yamahas that turn up at Starvation Army on the regular. From a narrow point of view - yes there are lots of not very good guitarists. And I've been in several bands with somewhat adequate keyboardists, pretty OK bassists, reasonably passable drummers and singers who sounded lke somebody killing an animal (at least, that's what my sister said when she almost came to one of my gigs but ran away...). :laugh:

 

Since the financial barrier to having a good keyboard rig is higher, only more serious musicians will end up with a pro rig. Simple math really.

 

A true talent can carry an audience away, the instrument used is not relavant. Sure, a different concept than a gigging band but also simple truth and I have seen it many times at gigs, both from the stage viewpoint and as an audience member. Good is good, OK is OK and great is great. The tools used to express are not universal or particularly relevant.

 

Jean Pierre Rampal was no less compelling on his flute than Jeff Beck or Herbie Hancock were playing their chosen instruments - I've seen all three of them.

Artur Rubenstein was amazing, so was David Lindley playing bass, drums, rhythm and singing with one of his custom lap steels. 2 very different things but both connected profoundly with their audience.

 

Ray Charles with his Orchestra, UK with Jobson, Bozzio and Wetton, Jeff Beck Band, all of them killed it. I saw Taj Mahal engage 7,000 clapping, stomping, shouting (Shake it on DOWN) people by himself with a banjo.

 

40+ years of gigging and still at it. Truth is important but so is how we share that truth. Connection can occur under less than ideal circumstance. The Motown Tribute band I was in for a couple of years resulted in a couple of friendships, one with an exceptional bassist (there's a gig band PRIZE!!!). The overall talent level of that band was not exceptional and sometimes just not very good at all.

 

Lots of thorns if you want the roses. Cheers, Kuru

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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Well as a guitarist and only recently a piano player. Remember Mr Ten Fingers that you're favorite range to play is the only range a guitarist has so try moving. Jazz legend Sonny Rollins was asked why he uses guitar players more than piano, Sonny said piano is too big an instrument and tends to step on everyone toes. Ask the bass player for his input.

 

There two sides to the coin. If everyone talks and works together there's room for everyone.

I feel like there"s more to it than just that. Different personality types are attracted to different outlets for expression. My experience is that those with a more outgoing, aggressive personality type tend to be attracted to playing guitar or singing than learning to play keyboards. Wanting to be the center of attention, vs a piece of the music production. There are exceptions, obviously.

I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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SRV or Eric Clapton cover band? Not interested. Local guitar prodigy? Not interested. Guitar hero cover band? Not interested.

 

This.

 

Truer words never spoken.

Yamaha U1 Upright, Roland Fantom 8, Nord Stage 4 HA73, Nord Wave 2, Korg Nautilus 73, Viscount Legend Live, Lots of Mainstage/VST Libraries

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Personally? I don't care as long as I am gigging and participating. Any contribution to that is, well, a contribution. Even the pay level is not important to me. Seems to me the OP is perhaps allowing his ego to over-rule, perhaps not...But whenever I get asked to sit in I do so happily just to be involved and even to come up with creative ways to make contribution by thinking outside the box in instrumentation and zones of play. Not everything needs to be about chords ;)

There is no luck - luck is simply the confluence of circumstance and co-incidence...

 

Time is the final arbiter for all things

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I'll play with guitar players who share the collaboration, but they're few and far between.

 

The problem ones are those with egos. They're not always visible. I worked with one whose ego slowly surfaced and found myself playing less and less keyboards.

 

 

Both points, totally agree.

 

Which is why I like ground rules. Agreed upon stuff.

 

And Its not a controlling thing, its better to get at issues early on , get agreement,

vs wasting 6 months and have an unsatisfactory music experience.

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

My Soundcloud with many originals:

[70's Songwriter]

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...Its better to Control Your Destiny vs 30 years of bitc^%$ about stuff.

 

Wait... what? Without bitc$*#&, the web as we know it would cease to exist, leaving behind a black hole so gravitationally dense that the entire internet could not escape. Anyone under the age of 25 would be forced out of their basements and the rest of us would be having to interact with them in the real world. Life would never be the same. So... I say no.

 

LOL

 

I noticed many musicians love their ' drama' and love to talk about it for 20-30 years.

 

After a while, its not all that entertaining.

 

I take " Control Your Destiny " . Its more productive and satisfying.

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

My Soundcloud with many originals:

[70's Songwriter]

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And Its not a controlling thing, its better to get at issues early on , get agreement,

vs wasting 6 months and have an unsatisfactory music experience.

 

Yup... the last problem band I was in, I was not shy about expressing my frustrations. I was civil about it and I really wanted to keep working with my friends. Six months later nothing changed and I left the band.

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I've played with guitarists who embodied every negative stereotype described here, and guitarists who defied every one. The latter are the only ones I've played with for any significant length of time.

 

Pretending that either extreme doesn't exist is silly. So is wasting your time in musical situations that don't further your goals, whether they're musical or financial or whatever.

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The level you need to be at to be decent to play out on keyboards is so much higher than the average guitar gunslinger. It's the nature of the instrument and so much is also asked of us in the band context. Playing the piano is fuckin hard and people don't want to put in the time.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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I'm no pro but in my band experience the problem isn't confined to guitar players, it's musicians who won't compromise for the good of the band. Case in point, volume, instead of laying back sometimes to let other instruments shine everyone just turns up. I just thank goodness we no longer have any amps on stage, and I can control my monitor mix to my iems with my phone :) I've got guitars over at 10:00 in a stereo mix and turned up only as loud as I see fit!

 

As far as keyboards in my area, most of the good players seem to be pro guys aren't aren't willing (for good reason, they are trying to make money) to play in a weekend warrior band. Take those guys away and the pickings can be slim. That works both ways though, every band has a guitarist but not that many even want a keyboardist.

 

There is nothing more boring to me than a guitar band with no keys and no vocal harmonies, no matter how good they are I lost interest fast. The more guitars on stage the faster I lose interest because it tends to sound awful. Rush being an exception (I love their old stuff before keyboards!) :)

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A lot of keyboard players gigging music from the era of 1960's, 70's and 80's album rock music are aging out of those things as are a lot of the audiences. I'm thinking of cover band music in bars and those of us who play the bread & butter sound palette of piano, electric piano, Hammond organ and clavs. I assume this is the stage piano and a clonewheel gigs.

 

A big part of contemporary music now doesn't have guitars and Hammond organs in the sound anymore.

 

I have seen open stage sets now where performers are bringing in a couple of Volcas, Roland boutique, a groovebox and a Novation Launchpad color grid with Ableton and do a 15 minute performance. It's interesting that as much as we debate who has the most accurate Leslie simulator without a Vent and release on a Rhodes patch, that most live performance is a lot different from the way many of us came up. (I'm 50 years old, so I was in high school playing bars in the 80's with early digital stuff)

 

I am still trying to do new things, too. Lo-fi hip hop beats with modal jazz runs, electronic chill stuff, etc. I am not sure playing Green Onions with Stevie Ray wannabe still inspires me to leave the house, especially having been a bit of a Covid-19 hermit at home for a while. I would love to find the guitarist who wants to add to what I'm doing, too.

Yamaha U1 Upright, Roland Fantom 8, Nord Stage 4 HA73, Nord Wave 2, Korg Nautilus 73, Viscount Legend Live, Lots of Mainstage/VST Libraries

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The level you need to be at to be decent to play out on keyboards is so much higher than the average guitar gunslinger. It's the nature of the instrument and so much is also asked of us in the band context. Playing the piano is fuckin hard and people don't want to put in the time.

 

It can"t be that hard if I can do it. ð

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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It's funny that you mention Ithaca as the place near you that has EDM; I'm sure that's true, but the DJ scene is so separate from what I do that I don't even think about it. We have a hell of a karaoke scene too, apparently, that rarely crosses over with the live music crew.

 

So here's a purely anecdotal observation, at least based on my weird little town down the road from the OP's: I think the guitar/keyboard clashes that you mention are largely generational. Not that there aren't still those stereotypical personalities or conflicts, but the dominance of the Guitar Hero has been downplayed a lot in popular music since the 90s, and I think it's diminished a lot of the old stereotypes about how the guitarist is equalled only by the singer in coolness and attention-grabbiness, at the expense of other band members. Likewise to bass players -- I'm lucky as someone who plays both keys and bass to play with excellent, thoughtful guitarists, who don't mind letting me really rip even on our most guitar-driven, crunchy music (just as I love to support a long, fiery guitar solo). But also, a lot of the music I play is more oriented in funk, soul, and R&B, which has never been as guitar-first as most rock-with-a-capital-R bands. Other than some popular cover bands, Ithaca doesn't have a ton of straight-ahead rock (our sweeping-generalization targets in the scene are the Dead tribute bands, which, again, skew older, and a whoooole lot of reggae). We also, of course, have a college with a highly-regarded music program, and then an Ivy League school with a music program, and all the resulting professors' families in the community, so we have a higher density of schooled musicians than many places our size. Honestly, when I was in college, if you were looking for a guitarist, you were as likely to find a jazz player as you were one of the open-mic bros (I went to college in the late aughts/early 2010s, so I heard a LOT of Wagon Wheel).

 

An interesting side note, even though my bands are very conscious of making sure all of the instruments fit properly into an arrangement, I've learned which sound engineers in the area we can count on by whether or not they turn up the keyboards enough... you can always hear the horns and guitars, of course.

 

All that said, one of the reasons I've been as active in the local scene as I have is because there aren't many keyboard players, especially when you're looking for someone who is an all-around piano/organ/electromechanicals/synth kind of band player, rather than someone who specializes in jazz/classical piano or Synthesizers for Synth-Driven Music. And as someone else on the thread mentioned, the bedroom-producer folks are much more likely to use keyboards as their vehicle than guitars.

Samuel B. Lupowitz

Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.

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'How much does the gig pay?" actually solves a lot of these problems. But .... for the most part, around here most all the players know each other. Though I like to take chances on young cats. Some good young players coming out of these modern western Protestant style churches. (Not sure what you call it, I"m Eastern Orthodox, albeit not a very good one)

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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Had a keyboard player who put his amp on the floor behind him and turned it way up. I was on the other side of the stage. I asked him once "You got ears in your ass?" and he just looked at me like I was insane. I showed him my amp stand, aimed my speaker at my actual ears. Weird.
Oh, the irony...

 

There is nothing more boring to me than a guitar band with no keys and no vocal harmonies
QFT.

 

And as Josh said, there are examples that both prove and disprove. It's simply that with 20 geetar players for every keyboardist, and guitar so easy to pick up at a beginner level, the untalented, over-loud, egocentric ones are easy to find.

 

Cheers, Mike.

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The level you need to be at to be decent to play out on keyboards is so much higher than the "average guitar gunslinger".

 

True, but the level an average keyboard player needs to be "decent" is nothing to brag about either.

I've been in too many bands where the keyboardist either did not solo at all or only soloed when they had a specific little piece that they could play by rote.

Extend the song because the dance floor is full and it's almost break time? Uh-oh, uncharted territory - "Mommy!!!!" :laugh:

 

That's not how it works when you get a request that the band doesn't "know" - you don't get a chart and you shouldn't need one.

 

The best keyboardist I've played with up here can take anything you throw at her and throw down without hesitation. She is awesome, that's how it's done.

There are others. Plenty of "guitarists" but not that many gigging steady. Marketing 101, supply exceeds demand.

 

I know a couple more keyboardists that I'd love to play with but they've got their band firing on all 8 cylinders so it probably won't happen any time soon.

 

There will always be plenty of aspiring "average" everybody out there, how "difficult" an instrument is to play depends on how far you want to take it and how your brain works.

Singling out "average guitar gunslingers" is a pretty easy target, it's kind of like the whole "Karen" thing.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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...in my band experience the problem isn't confined to guitar players, it's musicians who won't compromise for the good of the band.

 

+1. I think there's an immature player for every slot, and we've all run into them on the stray gig. In my network, most of us know each other and we play with each other in different bands frequently.

 

The stray dude / dudette who's too loud, not tasteful, doesn't learn the stuff, can't leave space for others, doesn't behave like an adult - they just don't get called for many gigs. Some of them aspire to be better, and spend some time shedding and growing up and then we see them again and it's more enjoyable for everyone.

 

At some point, we all hope we get the chance to play with significantly better, more seasoned players. When I finally got the chance, I tried to pull my own weight and not to screw up too badly. The pros I was with were patient, supportive, encouraging - and we all knew I was above my pay grade. I learned from that. I guess when the weak link doesn't learn from that, then folks may get dark and things can get chilly.

 

Being a regular gigging musician seems a lot like many other jobs to me. It has its own protocol, a set of unspoken rules, a normal expected set of behaviors. Unlike some jobs, it also has a whole tier of aspiring folks who are just coming along, who may or may not have the right head about that. And we all get to choose whether to work with folks a second time, or not.

..
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Singling out "average guitar gunslingers" is a pretty easy target, it's kind of like the whole "Karen" thing.

At least nobody"s used the term 'plank-spanker' yet. :cry:

“True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.”
― Kurt Vonnegut

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For the same pay as the guitarist gets I get the joy of buying and transporting 4 times the equipment, covering multiple parts, standing in the background hoping to be heard, and getting an occasional solo.

 

Actually, I had it lucky. My first band was very nice and helpful as I was learning to be a keyboardist in a band. My second band was very popular, but the leaders were piles of $@@@. After a disagreement in which they voiced their displeasure that I would not let them micromanage my every note we both found out how valuable a good keyboardist with equipment really is. I ended up playing with them for two more years. No other decent keyboardist in the city was willing to put up with their crap. It was not a good experience, but it taught me a lot.

 

Drummers and guitarists are a dime a dozen. A good keyboardist with equipment is gold. Too bad the pay scale does not reflect it. But you do have job security.

This post edited for speling.

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I'm no virtuoso, but I've turned down more offers than I've considered.

 

Reasons for not playing or quitting:

 

1) Overly loud guitarists and drummers, both rehearsing and playing.

2) Guitars that think every solo and fill is an invitation, especially playing over iconic piano parts (Ronstadt's "Living In The USA, for example) because he found a "really cool version" on YouTube with Eric Clapton. Dude, I'll defer to EC, but not you.

3) Bands that want a KB to be the horn section, string section, whatever-is-needed section. You want horns? Hire some horn players.

4) Weekend warriors who look at a band as an important source of income.

5) Loud blues guy with a bunch of original tunes that were essentially all the same minor blues.

6) A really talented Great American Songbook singer who smoked so much weed that he would forget about the audience, futz around with the PA and not put on a "show".

7) The same singer who wants to add drums, bass and two horns to the piano/vocal thing and wants me to figure out arrangements because he has no real musical training. Sorry, arranger/musical director is not in my tool kit.

8) I'm sure I'm forgetting some other forgettable experiences.

 

Thanks for the opportunity to vent!

aka âmisterdregsâ

 

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