The ultimate single-board gig rig: 2 contrasting manuals

[confidence]

A theme that keeps re-emerging in keyboard discussions is how to find a single board that will do everything you need at a gig, to avoid having to transport, set up and connect multiple boards. I now believe the point where this discussion can go no further is very clear: It's not the sound, it's the action.

 

We now have any number of keyboards on the market that can provide all the sounds most gigging players needs in one box. Sure, there will always be synth specialists who feel they need a bunch of separate synths, or a Rhodes specialist who absolutely must take his real Rhodes as well as another board for everything else. But for most people, covering the range of sounds needed in function gigs, theatre, jazz gigs etc, complaining about the shortcomings of a Kronos or Montage is just churlish. On the other hand, providing one single ACTION to cover all requirements is ultimately impossible, because the hammer-action piano keyboard and the unweighted organ/synth keyboard are really completely different things, performing different functions technically and musically.

 

So far so uncontentious. So surely what manufacturers need to do, if they really want to capture the "One Board To Rule Them All" market, is produce a dual manual keyboard with different actions on each of the manuals - broadly speaking one organ/synth action and one hammer action. This could have a number of formats, but I would propose a 73-note hammer action below and a 61-note synth action (flush to the right) above. The reduction in the piano keyboard from 88 to 73 notes would help bring the whole thing in at a reasonable weight (and sacrifice very little, IMO) while the space to the left of the 61-note synth keyboard could be used for panel controls such as mod wheel etc.

 

This would have several huge advantages over the current practice of using two boards with dfferent actions:

 

- The weight of the whole unit could be considerably less than that of two boards, due to only needing one external casing and one set of panel controls. To be sure it would be a challenge to bring it in at a carryable weight, but there are already 73 and even 88-note piano boards that are a lot lighter than they used to be, and 61-note synth board that weigh almost nothing. I think it could be done, at the upper end of what's acceptable.

 

- The two boards could be situated much closer together, making playing both at once easier (more like a dual manual organ) and minimising the problem of uncomfortable playing angles. Indeed if all panel controls were place above the upper board, its bottom could be literally flush to the top of the lower board, with just the keyboard itself of the lower board needing to protrude.

 

- The whole thing could use a single audio engine with a single unified interface, whereas running two boards means learning and remembering separate systems (more complication during gigging) and often paying for two sets of some high quality sounds when only one is needed (wasting money).

 

- It would thus be cheaper than the cost of two boards. In fact it would surely be only very slightly more expensive than one board, when you consider how little it costs them to produce a 61-note synth-action MIDI controller. It's basically just adding that onto something like the Kronos.

 

- Setup and strike down at a gig would be so much quicker and easier. The player would only need one case and one stand without an upper tier.

 

Has any manufacturer ever attempted something like this?

 

Is there something I'm overlooking that would make it impracticable?

 

Who agrees that this would put the final piece of the jigsaw in place?

[drawback]

Something like this?

 

And I think Sven"s remarks early in the conversation pretty much nailed it.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Sign me up to this thread.

 

Many times i think about what keyboards i have here at home i could pull apart and reconfigure to do this but its always tied to one thing. ie: to keep it lightweight and not cumbersome.

 

Hence a lightweight moulded case. Such as a home builder cannot produce.

 

Whenever a major manufacturer has done say a dual manual its always heavy. With Modern technology it would be possible but would it be sellable.

[stoken6]

Hi Confidence,

 

This topic has come up a few times in the past. The key challenge is that a dual-manual controller is as heavy as two singles (possibly more, due to the need for a deeper lower tier), and harder to carry than two singles. If it goes wrong, there's no backup (unlike two boards). I'm not sure there's demand for such a thing.

 

The nearest that ever came to market is the Orla Jamkey Hammer, which had a "weigh almost nothing" 61-key Fatar TP8 top tier, and a "lot lighter than they used to be" 73-key TP100 lower tier. That's a controller only, no built-in sounds. To you: 57lb/26kg.

 

Personally, I'd rather carry a Casio PX5 (24lb) and a lightweight (10lb?) synth-action 61-key controller.

 

What I'd like to see from the manufacturers is a lower-tier controller, 7x notes, designed to rest a top-tier board directly on it. (Deep, flat top panel without controls). I remember posting that Nord should do this for Electro and Stage owners - who are likely to "follow fashion" and buy the matching red lower tier, even if it's at a price premium.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[confidence]

Something like this?

 

And I think Sven"s remarks early in the conversation pretty much nailed it.

 

Link doesn't work for me - there's something weird about Musician's Gear website means I can't seem to access the right page on it), however could see the name "Orla Jamkey" and did a google search.

 

Sort of, but I was thinking in terms of an all-in-one performance keyboard rather than just a MIDI controller. While this looks interesting, you would still have to hook it up to your audio source via MIDI and manage all the communication between the two, thus negating the advantage of simplicity in setup and interface navigation that I was seeking. I can see this working for those using laptops, OTOH it's possibly not that much of an advantage over just taking two MIDI controllers, as MIDI controllers tend to be fairly light anyway.

 

What did Sven say?

[AUSSIEKEYS]

 

What did Sven say?

 

"I'll be back" ..?

[AUSSIEKEYS]

He said

 

"When they sell 3 of them worldwide and go out of business, you'll have your answer. "

[nursers]

 

What I'd like to see from the manufacturers is a lower-tier controller, 7x notes, designed to rest a top-tier board directly on it. (Deep, flat top panel without controls). I remember posting that Nord should do this for Electro and Stage owners - who are likely to "follow fashion" and buy the matching red lower tier, even if it's at a price premium.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

This exactly

[confidence]

There's a number of reasons why that Orla is not it.

 

Firstly, it's only a MIDI controller. There aren't that many people who gig using a MIDI controller triggering separate audio boxes any more. (Actually, I'm one of them). That whole setup is not as popular as it was twenth years ago, now keyboards have become more powerful and comprehensive.

 

Secondly, of that group, only a subset use laptops live (as this seems designed for) due to the well documented problems of reliability etc.

 

Of those that do use a laptop live, many will want to trigger it from a keyboard that also has built-in sounds, for a backup source precisely because of those reliability issues.

 

In fact my idea is coming from the opposite angle really, having accepted the demise of the "MIDI controller + module" paradigm, and having accepted the impracticality of laptops for live use. Working instead from the POV of a single performance keyboard that tries to be as comprehensive as possible.

[drawback]

Something like this?

 

And I think Sven"s remarks early in the conversation pretty much nailed it.

 

Link doesn't work for me...

 

...What did Sven say?

 

There"s more discussion, though. Perhaps just use this link?

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2876451/orla_jamkey_weighted_plus_orga

[AUSSIEKEYS]

My take would be for lightweight wise

 

Studio logic Compact 2x bottom keybed

said to be an ok trade off piano organ keybed (About 7kg as 88 note less as a 76 note) with drawbars

 

A korg kross top keybed very lightweight but said to be shitty keybed? But at less than 4kg or substitute another lightweight powerful synth with better action

 

I reckon with a professional designed moulded plastic case itd come around the weight of most casio privias say under 12kg.

 

I see this as doable for a light weight dual especially reducing the compact to a 76 or so

 

Playable as piano or organ on bottom keybed

Playable on top as organ synth

 

Reasonably powerful sound engines

 

Would it be sellable ... probably not

 

but I like to think studio logic would have the guts to try it as i feel theycould do it as affordable.

 

But it wouldn't sell enough to take the chance

 

Edit: or simply use the compact 2x sound engine or a version of it over both manuals so the top keybed can be any lightweight keybed as the kross keybed doesnt inspire many.

[AnotherScott]

So surely what manufacturers need to do, if they really want to capture the "One Board To Rule Them All" market, is produce a dual manual keyboard with different actions on each of the manuals - broadly speaking one organ/synth action and one hammer action. This could have a number of formats, but I would propose a 73-note hammer action below and a 61-note synth action (flush to the right) above. ...

Has any manufacturer ever attempted something like this?

Orla Jamkey Hammer

 

The weight of the whole unit could be considerably less than that of two boards, due to only needing one external casing

Not necessarily, because the entire enclosure has to be built to support a greater amount of total weight, and because the enclosure will be larger overall, since the bottom board's "enclosure" likely needs to extend back to the depth of the board above it (unless maybe you're okay with a jigsaw shaped profile, but besides the aesthetics, that could possibly create additional complications in terms of balancing it on a stand or support for stress points from the top board... i.e. without a fully flat bottom, it would probably need extra supportive side panels, so even some weight you take away from one place could get added somewhere else). To wit, the Hammond SK2 at 35 lbs weighs more than double the SK1's 16 lbs, despite being in one enclosure rather than two (and even being able to do away with an entire control surface). So not only is there no considerable weight savings, there's actually a slight weight penalty.

 

I do think it's a cool idea, which has come up before, but weight is an issue, which I think gets compounded by the overall dimensions. That Jamkey with hammer action on bottom was 57 lbs, and even the Viscount Legend (comparable 7x-key width but no hammer action) is 46 lbs. These numbers are hefty enough, but with the width of a 73 and a height of two boards, these would be awkward things to get your hands around from any angle, making the same amount of weight even harder to deal with.

 

Lastly, there is the complication that it's hard enough for people to agree on which hammer action and which non-hammer actions they find acceptable (especially among the low weight options, which are usually compromises already), so the odds of someone being happy with the particularly included hammer AND non-hammer actions may create another obstacle. I could imagine people saying they could deal with it if its hammer action weren't X while other people would say they could deal with if if its non-hammer action wasn't Y. ;-) Bottom line, I suspect this is a more desirable concept in theory than in practice.

 

ETA: When I started typing that no one else had responded. By the time I got around to finishing it and typing post, all those others had been entered!

[AnotherScott]

but I was thinking in terms of an all-in-one performance keyboard rather than just a MIDI controller.

Now you could be adding more weight for the sound generating electronics/interface... and further segmenting the audience to, for example, people who are happy with the piano/EP sounds you've included AND with the synth/organ sounds you've included, since they no longer have the option of picking a board they like for each. I mean, that's true with ANY single board solution, but if you're looking at this as an alternative to buying TWO boards, you have to consider what the trade-offs are relative to that option as well. Moving it in one piece, but a heavy one. Not having your choice of actions for top and bottom. Not having your choice of sounds for top and bottom. Losing the 2-board advantage of having a backup board if one of your boards goes down.

[CowboyNQ]

I feel that if the proposed dual manual keyboard is designed to a specification most players could live with to feel they"re not compromising, the weight and size of the instrument might start to negate the potential benefit of having a single keyboard rather than two.

 

Personally, if I"m limited to one 'board for reasons of practicality, I"m happy enough to compromise on action and take a lightweight 61-key rompler rather than lug a Frankenstein"s monster-style behemoth which will give the audience no greater pleasure and earn me no extra money.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

What anotherscot said...

 

 

But with the advent of shorter in depth keybeds like the compact i dont see getting a lightweight dual impossible.

 

Use 2 of these shorter depth 2x keybeds would not make overly deep or high compared to most traditional flagship models thus size and weight and plastic moulded is extremely strong with ribs and gantries much like honeycomb. Ill bet surprisingly close to some of the motherships people bought.

 

Ive pulled many of my keyboards apart and ive looked at these things. Often thought about building one but realise homebuilt means heavy very heavy

 

I believe the technology is already there in plastic moulding to keep it lightweight and reasonably compact.

 

Its just as anotherscot said ...people will not like keybed x over keybed y. Theyll want sound engine d not sound engine f.

 

I believe its possible around 12kg in plastic only construction. To me the hardest thing would be the strength of the enclosure for playing top keybed over bottom keybed then any other part of the equation. This area to me would be where the weight may or would increase.

 

There are keybeds and there are keybeds and everyines gonna hate one over another so itll be another shite fight.

[confidence]

Since weight seems to be a sticking point, let's crunch some numbers.

 

Weight of current 73-note hammer action workstations/performance keyboards:

 

Korg Grandstage 73 - 17.0 kg

Yamaha CP73 - 13.1kg

Korg Kronos 73 - 21.1kg

Kurzweil Forte 7 - 18.8 kg

 

Weight of current 61-note basic MIDI controllers:

 

M-Audio Keystation 61 - 4.1kg

Arturia Keylab essential 61 - 3.3kg

NI Komplete Kontrol 61 - 4.7kg

Roland A-800 Pro - 4.5kg

 

The base weight would probably depend on the extent to which it was designed to be a studio workstation or a performance-based keyboard - I assume it's the number of functions under the former category that make the Kronos heavier than the others. My preference would be for the latter, and that would be where the market is as workstations continue to get eclipsed by DAWs. There would also be some weight saving from housing the two actions within a single case, with a single set of controls.

 

But just for the sake of argument, and to be generous, let's take the heaviest board from the two categories and combine them: That would be the Kronos 73 + Komplete Kontrol 61, with a combined weight of 25.8kg or 56.9lb. So that would be the very heaviest such a unit would be likely to end up, before considering what could be shaved off in the design stage.

 

Korg Kronos 88 is 24.1kg

Roland RD2000 is 21.7kg

Kurzweil PC3A8 is 24.5kg

Yamaha Motif XF8 and Montage 8 are 29kg!

 

You can see from this that even just combining the two boards with no consideration for saving on casing etc, the result is hardly any heavier than a mid-range 88-key board such as Kronos or Kurzweil, and considerably lighter than some 88-key boards that people do gig with. Or to put it most simply, as I said initially: The weight of a 61-note unweighted MIDI controller keyboard is so modest, that adding it to a 73-key hammer action board only gets you to the weight of an equivalent 88-key hammer action board.

 

So anyone who currently lugs an 88-key board would lose nothing (apart from a few notes in the extremes of range that we never use) by lugging this, and in fact would gain by not having to lug a separate unweighted board in its own case.

[confidence]

OK I posted that before reading anotherscott's post re weight. He does raise some valid objections...

[AUSSIEKEYS]

I look forward to reading this thread in the morning its 12:38am here. Time to try and sleep.

 

Thanks confidence for this thread.

 

Been waiting for a thread like this to hear peoples ideas and thoughts. I belive lightweight is doable but only with certain brand keybeds and a full plastic case.. I look forward to everyones own ideas.

[CowboyNQ]

...anyone who currently lugs an 88-key board would lose nothing (apart from a few notes in the extremes of range that we never use) by lugging this, and in fact would gain by not having to lug a separate unweighted board in its own case.

 

I understand this argument but disagree. IMO it"s actually easier to carry, store and transport two 'normal' sized 'boards than one big guy. The proposition asks me to invest (give up) 88 keys for a return of one giant keyboard in a giant road/flight case instead of two. I"m also giving up versatility and the ability to modularise my rig to cope with footprint issues or more specialised gigs.

 

I like the creativity of the idea though and will be happy to be proven wrong if a post-COVID proliferation of lightweight dual-manual weighted/unweighted keyboards flood the market at an investment-worthy price.

[Adan]

I feel I get pretty close to the ideal with the YC61 over a P121. And there's many other keyboard combinations that would get just as close. They key point, from an ergonomic standpoint, is to get the boards as close as possible, which entails blocking the controls on the lower board, which in turns means you're either triggering sounds on the upper board from lower, or connecting the lower to a module or software.

 

Comparing a setup like this to the hypothetical all-in-one, there are pros and cons. If I was still a young lad I might gravitate towards the unibody, but at this point I don't see myself ever again carting around a 50+ lb piece of equipment.

[cphollis]

I'm thinking more "modular" than all-in-one. Two lighter boards that neatly stack are easier for me to transport than a single heavier board.

 

As an example, the Nord Stage 3 Compact is a pretty much do-it-all keyboard at 10kg/22lbs. Panel A you play using the native keybed, panel B using a weighted midi keybed, all controlled from a single song list. It's a great single-board solution save for the unweighted keybed.

 

What I'd like is a simple, weighted keybed action to stack the NS3C on top of in a dual manual configuration. Most of the options I look at have knobs and sliders where you'd stack the NS3C, or they weigh a ton. A simple, light and weighted slab with minimal controls that don't get in the way would be perfect for me.

 

As an example, the Kawaii VPC1 has the right form factor, but is 65 lbs (!) and very pricey. The Doepfer LMK4+ has no stackable surface. The SL88 has a big rotary encoder sticking out of the middle. And so on.

 

I suppose something like the Kawaii at half the weight (and half the cost!) would be ideal.

[confidence]

...anyone who currently lugs an 88-key board would lose nothing (apart from a few notes in the extremes of range that we never use) by lugging this, and in fact would gain by not having to lug a separate unweighted board in its own case.

 

I understand this argument but disagree. IMO it"s actually easier to carry, store and transport two 'normal' sized 'boards than one big guy. Therefore I"m investing (giving up) my 88 keys for a return of one giant keyboard in a giant road/flight case instead of two.

 

As I tried to show with the numbers before, I don't think your assumption that the resulting single board will be such a behemoth is justified. Remember that we're cutting the hammer-action board from 88 notes to 73. That in itself will save weight, and the reduced horizontal casing will also save weight. And then remember that a 61-note unweighted keyboard actually weighs very little. There will only be one set of panel controls, and one set of input/output connectors on the back. My contention is that the final dual manual 73+61 would be hardly any heavier, if at all, than your current 88.

 

I do however take AnotherScott's point that there may be engineering issues in containing so much within one case that work against me. And that the shape would be more unwieldy making it more difficult to carry, even if not any heavier as such.

 

I"m also giving up versatility and the ability to modularise my rig to cope with footprint issues or more specialised gigs.

 

Sure, but anybody whose priority is versatility and modularity is clearly not the audience I'm talking about here. Yes, there are people that own a dozen different boards and are happy to gig with whatever 2, 3 or 4 of them suits according to style and budget, own a van and are being paid enough to get to the gig well early and spend the time cabling etc. That is one part of the market.

 

But there's clearly another part which is people who just want to be able to take something to a gig that will cover all their bases while requiring a minimum of packing / unpacking / cabling / fuss. There is no shortage of threads, here and elsewhere, on the topic of "what's the best comprehensive one-board solution". I'm not making it up. So that's the angle this is looking to satisfy.

[Adan]

 

What I'd like is a simple, weighted keybed action to stack the NS3C on top of in a dual manual configuration. Most of the options I look at have knobs and sliders where you'd stack the NS3C, or they weigh a ton. A simple, light and weighted slab with minimal controls that don't get in the way would be perfect for me.

 

.

 

Lots of existing weighted action boards will work, you just need to find a way to support the back end of the upper board. I've posted a number of times about using the Onstage WS stand with the Tony Orant mod. It's a chicken-wire solution, but it does the trick with a minimum of expense and fuss.

 

A lower keyboard wide enough to sit another board on top of it is going to be heavier and more unwieldy to carry. From a logic/engineering standpoint, it makes more sense just to have a stand designed to handle this sort of configuration. Such a stand doesn't exist on the market. But it's not hard to design and build a keyboard stand. If you don't have the tools and skills, you can easily find someone who does.

[confidence]

I feel I get pretty close to the ideal with the YC61 over a P121. And there's many other keyboard combinations that would get just as close. They key point, from an ergonomic standpoint, is to get the boards as close as possible, which entails blocking the controls on the lower board, which in turns means you're either triggering sounds on the upper board from lower, or connecting the lower to a module or software.

 

That's an interesting take. I think I've always conceived of two-board solutions from the POV that the lower, hammer-action board is the main element with most of the audio and control duties, and the upper synth board an add-on for playing right hand synth and organ parts (probably because I'm basically a piano player). Maybe the opposite is better ergonomically, as you say: a really comprehensive 61-note unweighted workstation, with an 88-note controller underneath it just for triggering the piano and EP sounds it contains.

[Adan]

Another point to consider is that most of us are so damn picky about keyboard actions. It's hard enough finding what you like when it's only weighted or unweighted. If you combined two together in a one piece unit, you've probably lost many potential buyers who would find one of the actions acceptable, but not the other.

[confidence]

I'm thinking more "modular" than all-in-one. Two lighter boards that neatly stack are easier for me to transport than a single heavier board.

 

As an example, the Nord Stage 3 Compact is a pretty much do-it-all keyboard at 10kg/22lbs. Panel A you play using the native keybed, panel B using a weighted midi keybed, all controlled from a single song list. It's a great single-board solution save for the unweighted keybed.

 

What I'd like is a simple, weighted keybed action to stack the NS3C on top of in a dual manual configuration. Most of the options I look at have knobs and sliders where you'd stack the NS3C, or they weigh a ton. A simple, light and weighted slab with minimal controls that don't get in the way would be perfect for me.

 

As an example, the Kawaii VPC1 has the right form factor, but is 65 lbs (!) and very pricey. The Doepfer LMK4+ has no stackable surface. The SL88 has a big rotary encoder sticking out of the middle. And so on.

 

I suppose something like the Kawaii at half the weight (and half the cost!) would be ideal.

 

What I find curious about this stuff is that pure MIDI controllers don't seem to weigh any less than full-on audio workstations of similar size and keyboard spec. That Kawaii for example is the same weight as a Montage 8 or the biggest of the Fantoms - the very heaviest 88-note workstations you can buy. The doepfer is exactly the same weight as a Kronos 88, the most advanced and comprehensive workstation you can buy. The Oberheim MC2000 MIDI controller that I use weighs the same (24kg).

 

It's like once you've accounted for the case and the action, all the electronics in a workstation or performance keyboard - the parts that make sound - are made of air and don't actually add any further weight (???)

 

I found the same thing researching Hammond clones. The GSI DMC-122, which as far as I can tell is the only pure MIDI controller in Hammond-form factor on the market, weighs 18kg. The Mojo, made by the same company, with the same number of manuals and drawbars, but with its own comprehensive internal audio engine, weighs 17kg! How does that work?

[confidence]

What I'd like is a simple, weighted keybed action to stack the NS3C on top of in a dual manual configuration. Most of the options I look at have knobs and sliders where you'd stack the NS3C, or they weigh a ton. A simple, light and weighted slab with minimal controls that don't get in the way would be perfect for me.

 

https://www.thomann.de/gb/m_audio_hammer_88.htm

 

???

[RandyFF]

I've become a fanboi of the Kawai ES110 since experiencing it's absolutely lovely expression. I'd been looking for a keyboard to do it all, have all the features I wanted, but when I read the descriptions that James Shawcross and Jazz+ made of the action, it sounded exactly like what I wanted, the action comes first! The range of easily achievable pianistic expression from the softest to the loudest is just wonderful.

 

Which has led to to think- wow, this is a keyboard that weighs 26 pounds and is on the lower end of cost ($700). How great would it be if other companies used it, like Nord did with the Nord Grand, using a Kawai keybed.

 

My version of the dual manual keyboard:

- ES110 keybed for the lower manual, 73/76 notes, low E

- 61 note Fatar semi-weighted action

- Designed as a controller, but with onboard sounds, much like the Numa Compact 2x

- Plastic body, weight under 40 pounds

 

I suppose a wrinkle on the design would be for the top board to be detachable, much like a slab keyboard can be removed from a stand that is designed for it. The keyboard would only be functional when the 2 keybeds are together, the point of having the top board detachable is solely to keep the weight and bulkiness down.

[CEB]

Gear is overrated.

[stoken6]

@RandyFF I think a two-part design would add a lot of value (like the Hammond XLK5 and the Mojo lower 61). I do think it's a shame that the guys who make "satisfactory" (we all have different tastes) lightweight hammer actions - Casio, Yamaha, Kawai - don't make 73/76 note options, with the exception of the Yamaha P121.

 

Cheers, Mike.