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Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on New Keyboards, etc , too high ?
SteveCoscia #3040013 04/21/20 10:16 PM
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depends on the keyboard.

I am not sure I would buy a used Kronos for $2300-$2800 on eBay.

KC Island
Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on New Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3040022 04/21/20 10:40 PM
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A few years ago I bought a brand new Kronos-88 for $2600. I don't know why anyone would pay that much for a used one.

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on New Keyboards, etc , too high ?
Nathanael_I #3040029 04/21/20 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Nathanael_I
A few years ago I bought a brand new Kronos-88 for $2600. I don't know why anyone would pay that much for a used one.

Used Kronos prices on eBay prices are generally over stated/unrealistic IMO.

very good price you worked out if it was factory sealed- A stock

Was Korg still offering the 2 year warranty ?

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on New Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3040049 04/22/20 01:17 AM
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Perhaps a question should be "Are prices on new keyboards too low?"

Seems from a lot of the commentary, that the value from the newer generation of boards is pretty high, yes? Perhaps there's another way to measure the value? Such as what's the value per hour of playing?

Take a $4,000 board - - Let's say between practicing, rehearsing, recording, gigging, etc etc, you play the board for 500 hours a year (random estimate), and you hold the board for 2 years. Therefore, over 2 years, the board cost you $4/hour to play. And for every subsequent year, the overall cost per hour gets lower and lower, and the value per hour gets higher and higher.

With this very scientific and precise data driven methodology, it's now clear and unmistakable. The prices on new keyboards are too low.


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Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3040051 04/22/20 02:16 AM
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I think that today's keyboards are a bargain.

I paid $150 in 1965 for a used, beat to heck Wurlitzer 140 EP. I worked 272 hours @ 55 cents an hour flipping hamburgers to pay for it.

Got a new Gibson G101 organ in 1967 for $995. I worked 603 hours @ $1.65 an hour laboring in the steel mills to pay for it.

When you compare the technology advances over the past 50 years, the value you receive for you dollars is unbelievable.

Duane


Korg PA4x76, Turbosound ip500 Tower Speaker System
Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
Adan #3040062 04/22/20 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Adan
I've wondered how Yamaha could be making money on the Genos. Perhaps the answer is, from a single product standpoint, they aren't. But maybe the R&D and technology that goes into it finds its way into the MODX, which is a cash cow. I have no inside info, just speculating.

All workstations seem overpriced to me because I'm only interested in performance. I tried the Fantom 6 but ended up returning it. As a performance keyboard it was fine, but had I kept it I would have been paying for a ton of features I'd never use.

Street price on the Genos was as low as 4250US late Jan. What you are paying for is what is in there--well worth it if that's what you like. As you know, it has an incredible range of genre acompaniment, and the most polished platform to date to employ them. 32 MIDI channels, it's no hardware slouch, though the montage is light years ahead for sound design. Far from perfect or even cutting edge from hardware standpoint, but in it's niche today, nothing comes close. Euro sales were good, and it's widely employed---or was--by travelling one man bands especially in east europe.

I do lust for one, and someday I'll get one, unless a better product appears in the Genos category, which is affordable.

The current economic outlook is so bleak I'd expect the prices on everything to drop dramtically within months, and we will have to loose some makers, I fear.

I have bought a number of keyboards in the last 18 months which I think were good values: Numa Compact 2x, Deepmind 12, I bought new, each under 600US. I use both often. But the used market is very ripe, and getting riper----unfortuneatly. When the DAWs took over around 2005, the king of hardware synths---you could argue----was the Access Virus TI, which adjusted for inflation, in 61 note form, was more expensive than the Genos.

In late January, before our new world began, I was lamenting the lack of at least one extra timbral on my otherwise lovely DM12, and my attention was drawn to the "Virus", presaging perhaps, the current nightmare. I bought a 61 note TI for 1100 US, used of course, and it is my "precious" at the moment, though I am far from knowing it well. For that money I got a fantastic VA, updated with wavetables, formants, grain oscillators, superb effects usable by all my sound machine, a build to put BMW to shame, and the best electronic keybed I have seen, excepting my Hammond, which can't do velocity anyway. 16 channel Multitimbrality, nothing has been built to exceed it's overall performance, at least than I have seen. Certainly there are synths better at one trick or the other. It plays fine with Logic, but I prefer to use without a computer...for now. I use the last of Linn's line, the MPC 1000 to sequence, another unsurpassed electronic instrument. I spend enough time helping clients with computers, or using them for media and research. I don't enjoy using them for playing music. Sometimes I weaken when I see state of the art orchestration using the super expensive sound libraries---those "beyond genos" sounds and articulations. But at my 62 years I need to make better chops while I still can, and the synth/sound design world is a terrible distraction. OK the RD-8 is useful, and I have layered pads and E-pianos like I never dreamed. Still last few weeks I'm working out acoustically, for the most part.

My 1984 Young Chang U121 is playing better than ever--I'm tuning it myself and it has finnaly settled into A440, after I unwisely pulled it up from around A430 were it was quite happy. I could replace it for about 1200.00 It's as good as any U1 in both sound and action. I bought it new and it has hummidfier. I have not played the blonde RT3 in several weeks, but two new shelter cats are keeping the mice out of it and two big Leslies which are much overdue for exercise. My isolation is crowded, LOL. Today I heard Rachmaninoff....himself at around age 20 from serveral 78rpm victors, recorded without electricity, in near new shape, from the old family collection, I'm digitizing to the MPC1000. After some slight tweaking in the mackie mixer, surface noise is minor, and the sound is unbelievable. I had a old SL-1200mkII modded by KAB for 78rpm (variable) and I got two decent, ortofon, and Stanton 500mkII, cartridges for some cheap but good 78 needles. Nobody has heard the 1000+ 78s for about 60 years. Alot of virtuosos on keys and organs...and little production in the way. My shelves are now full of many hundreds of printed works for piano and organ that were bought by the same nameless ancestors who spent a small fortune on the records. I do read, so that is another boon. I'm not swimming in dough, but I feel rich, which is embarrasing when I know people are going nuts en masse at the moment.

Worse, my 2016 electric mountain bike came out of winter storage displaying a large crack in the frame. Haibike gave up trying to replace just the frame, which has a 5 year warranty, and a 2020 All Mtn 2.0 is due to show up before the week is out, at no cost. I had no plans or money to replace the bike, which has reduced my auto mileage by 80% in the last four years. For all this undeserved good fortune, in a such a true crisis, I expect a stroke or some other terrible fate at any moment.

Are keyboards too expensive? They were not at the end of January. I would not want to try to sell one now. For me the Genos is still "down the road" likely something I will buy used. But I will have to be out of everything to ask for my deposit back on....



I pray they can pull it off while I'm still kickin

Last edited by uhoh7; 04/22/20 05:57 AM.

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Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3040063 04/22/20 05:11 AM
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Wow, the sound design is coming along very well indeed. Very much looking forward to giving the Osmose people the rest of the money!

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
EscapeRocks #3040084 04/22/20 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by EscapeRocks
One thing I didn't see in the premise/original question:

Why or what makes any of the $3000+ boards overpriced?....


Not overpriced for everyone.

Maybe for more people now because of the pronounced income gap, and the destruction of the middle class through offshoring jobs.
Still....for the lucky few, almost no price would be too high.
But that's a discussion for another forum.

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3040085 04/22/20 01:18 PM
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while mostly everyone sees the the $3000-$4000 flagship purchase from their own internal rationalization { can I afford, do I make enough $, my rig from the 70's/80's was +$10,000}, the premise was to get outside of that bubble. Think differently. Scrutinze your purchase decision.

My premise is that Yamahas, Korg's, and likely Rolands has very healthy gross margins on these boards. The financials also support that the co's are doing extremely well selling these boards

I know what I think or what I am proving won't reduce the pricing strategy. I understand the 'free' market, know there are dozens of low cost jchoices.

In general, I think its useful, to know, and independently scrutinize where your $3000-$4000 is going.

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3040106 04/22/20 03:07 PM
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As long as I get my value out of these boards, I'm fine with the manufacturer making healthy profit margins. Its been suggested elsewhere synths should get cheaper because the component costs go down over time or at least, people think they do. The difference is they aren't selling components..they are selling the super wizbang workstation X. I'm not buying an Intel Atom computer, I'm buying a musical instrument.

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3051785 06/30/20 12:27 PM
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Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3051792 06/30/20 01:05 PM
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Yamaha[ who did a deal], Korg, Roland setting the same price ?

Go figure.

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
Devnor #3051797 06/30/20 01:19 PM
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Agree. I went through a long phase of bad electronics breaking down one way or another and afraid to buy anything electronic from 70's on. Got tired of going to repair shop. Bought a POS amp called a SuperNova once. Drove it twice 100 miles to Brooklyn where they made it, 2 attempts and even they couldn't fix it. Had a tin can with oil in it to give a wierd leslie effect. Bad speakers too. $600 down the drain.
The 2K on the broke Arp Omni hurts. Lot of bread for me back then.

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3051822 06/30/20 02:50 PM
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I purchased my Yamaha Motif ES7 in 2001 for something around $3K. I've gigged with it, sequenced a lot of songs on it and still play it today. It is in perfect condition with only a few scratches on the rail under the keybed. It has served me well and should continue to do so. If I threw it in the trash today, it cost me $150 per year to own it. It's brought me tremendous joy and fulfillment.

Yes, the new flagship boards are in the $3-4K range and yes, that's a lot of money. The manufacturers are doing what they're supposed to do- make as much money as possible. I don't blame them since they carry all the risk.

People have choices now, with trickle down versions of current keyboard tech at reduced prices. Choice is great, the market speaks.


Kurzweil PC3X, Yamaha Motif ES7, Muse Receptor 2 Pro Max, Neo Ventilator
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Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
Bif_ #3051823 06/30/20 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Bif_
I pu

Yes, the new flagship boards are in the $3-4K range and yes, that's a lot of money. The manufacturers are doing what they're supposed to do- make as much money as possible. I don't blame them since they carry all the risk.

s.

Missing a key fact which many here don't care about.

Manufacturers are supposed to set prices and MSRP independently

And based on actions and the settlement their hands have been slapped.

Now, if you are fine, with manufacturers setting MSRP in a coordinated manner, in the marketplace, that's your call.

I understand all the 'rationalizing ', but there are some folks that scrutinize the #'s and the coordinated activity.

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3051828 06/30/20 03:13 PM
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Greg,

I think that's a different topic from "are prices too high" Take the MSRP issue out of the equation, and I fully concur with Bif_ .

Put it back in the equation, and I still agree. As you said, I am one who doesn't care how they arrived at the MSRP, nor to I try to figure it out. Heck, it may cost Roland $15 to make the $3200 (street price) Fantom 6. So? I will either go for it, or not, based on my own criteria. If it's more than I can afford at this time, I am not going to complain that "it's too expensive", even if I know how much gross profit Roland is making.


David
Gig Rig: Roland A-88MK2 | Arturia Keylab 61 | Mac Mini | Mainstage

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3051829 06/30/20 03:13 PM
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Many of the instruments that I own do not have an immediate competitor in their price category for an equivalent level of features.

Many instruments that I do not own, I did not buy because I was fine with rolling my own sound with a controller and software plug in and didn't need to buy a keyboard for the purpose.

Most of the stuff I buy is for fun and enjoyment and supporting my hobby. A lot of my friends spend their fun money on golf trips, a Harley Davidson, jet skis, restoring muscle cars, etc. By comparison, keyboard gear is a BARGAIN compared to some other hobbies. (Like the cost of maintaining and operating a little weekend boat) I like to throw my fun money into owning the latest flagship keyboards and home studio gear. My life.


Yamaha U1 Upright, Kurzweil Forte 7, Viscount Legend Live, Roland Fantom 7, Roland Jupiter X, Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk2, Arturia V Collection 7, Komplete 12 Ultimate
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Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
EscapeRocks #3051841 06/30/20 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by EscapeRocks
Greg,

I think that's a different topic from "are prices too high" Take the MSRP issue out of the equation, and I fully concur with Bif_ .

Put it back in the equation, and I still agree. As you said, I am one who doesn't care how they arrived at the MSRP, nor to I try to figure it out. Heck, it may cost Roland $15 to make the $3200 (street price) Fantom 6. So? I will either go for it, or not, based on my own criteria. If it's more than I can afford at this time, I am not going to complain that "it's too expensive", even if I know how much gross profit Roland is making.


Hi David, I am ok with disagreement

Here is how the dots connect;

Roland Korg Yamaha have equivalent products

They ascertain what the market will bear for a niche, lets say work stations [ or performance synth or whatever]

All 3 arrive at the closely the same MSRP in the marketplace, $3200-$3900 for the keyboard, depending on key size.

Of course, they will strive to set MSRP where the co's can achieve very high profit margin.

Thats the nature of corporations- to financially benefit owners/shareholders.

The issue is as I see it, is there is suppose to be 'price competition ' with equivalent products.

That theoretically results in lower prices. Lower prices benefit the consumer.

Competition and lower price , not higher, is the intention behind the laws.

I understand that you do not care how MSRP is 'determined '. Thats your prerogative.

There are parties that do scrutinize the activity.

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Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3051862 06/30/20 05:31 PM
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I find no fault in what you are saying either.

However, it makes me think that perhaps you think a company manufacturing widgets should have a cap on how much gross profit they make.

What should the manufacturer's margin be on their product sale to the retailer? Then forgetting MAP for this exercise, what margin should the retailer get on the sale to the end user?

Company X wants to see a 30% profit. Cost of goods to make the widget is $1000 So quick math. 100-30 =70 $1000/.7 = $1428
retailer wants 20% profit. Cost = 1428 / .8 = selling price to consumer $1785.

Yes, a very simple example. Which leads back to my original question. Where to "We" cap the manufacturer? Do "We" say, "you're only allowed to make xx% per unit"?

Thanks for the good discussion.

Last edited by EscapeRocks; 06/30/20 05:31 PM.

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Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
EscapeRocks #3051877 06/30/20 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by EscapeRocks
I fi

Yes, a very simple example. Which leads back to my original question. Where to "We" cap the manufacturer? Do "We" say, "you're only allowed to make xx% per unit"?

Thanks for the good discussion.

Hi David, competition , in theory , is suppose to manage pricing.

Competition protects the consumer was a mantra.

Back in the days of covered wagons, the 80's. ,, " Competition is King " here in the US.

But that has shifted for various reasons - PM me if you want my take.

Back to you

How much gross profit a corp makes is going to vary, because there cost of material acquisition is going to vary.

They can shift some internal costs to gross margin or to SG& A. Lots of financial accounting stuff.

etc etc etc

Thus I don't believe its practical/possible to arbitrarily ' control ' the internal margin of corps/manufacturers.

As we can see, UK authorities take an active view on manufacturers.
To benefit their consumers.

Each country has its own oversight. Some are active. Some do not.

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
EscapeRocks #3051897 06/30/20 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by EscapeRocks
I find no fault in what you are saying either.

However, it makes me think that perhaps you think a company manufacturing widgets should have a cap on how much gross profit they make.....


It's not one company. It's collusion between several companies to manipulate the market - price fixing.

And about the fines - they're paid with the money they get from us through sales.

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3051913 06/30/20 08:44 PM
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Any company that wants to race to the bottom on price is playing a fools game. Selling more widgets at lower margins only works to a point. Many things are sold with a 'volume discount' but there's a point where buying more doesn't lower the price.


Originally Posted by GregC
Competition and lower price , not higher, is the intention behind the laws.

Is the intention of the laws to spur competition, and therefore lower prices, or are the laws to prevent price gouging? I always thought it was the latter.


Kurzweil PC3X, Yamaha Motif ES7, Muse Receptor 2 Pro Max, Neo Ventilator
Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3051926 06/30/20 11:06 PM
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Its too hypothetical to discuss how businesses ' should ' operate, and how they 'price'.

I ran my own business for 10 years so I have a good handle on 'profitable pricing '

It really begins with 'smart purchasing ' and inventory mgmt.

Plenty of books and chapters on having a successful business.

if you want to understand the role of Anti Trust laws, its best to read sources:

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/antitrust-law.asp

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3051932 07/01/20 12:06 AM
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On the original question, I suppose some keyboards are too expensive for me, anyway. I've not bought a flagship at $4k (thinking rompler) ever. I have spent that much on a laptop that more than exceeds what a rompler can do. So I guess somewhere in there is my judgement that there isn't enough value. I did buy a Kronos at $2600, brand new, A stock, and then decided to stay laptop after all. (I sold the Kronos for what I paid for it). So there was a price at which I would buy a Kronos. But a whole lot less than $4k.

I have bought more than one synthesizer at $4k. Small volume, boutique kinds of things. Also not commodity pieces, but unique items. John Bowen Solaris, Non-Linear Labs C15.... that kind of thing.

I do wish that the best digital piano actions were more accessible. I never want the fancy home cases or built in speakers. I don't need the internal modest quality samples of the stage pianos. So I do overpay for things like the Nord Grand just because I like the action. And I guess I've justified that to myself - there isn't a choice if I want to play really nice weighed actions. My fingers like what they like.

But I guess in the end, they charge what they charge because enough will pay, and they have their whole product lines tiered, and segmented to get the most out of the market. I notice how successful the MODX is. I bet they sold many more of them than the Montage. I know for me, the MODX would get the nod. I'm sure I'd hate its keys, I don't need the samples, but the synth side is pretty strong... And I have LOTS of other keyboards to play the MODX from - it would go in a rack across the room.

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
Nathanael_I #3051939 07/01/20 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Nathanael_I
On the original question, I suppose some keyboards are too expensive for me, anyway. I've not bought a flagship at $4k (thinking rompler) ever. I have spent that much on a laptop that more than exceeds what a rompler can do. So I guess somewhere in there is my judgement that there isn't enough value. I did buy a Kronos at $2600, brand new, A stock, and then decided to stay laptop after all. (I sold the Kronos for what I paid for it). So there was a price at which I would buy a Kronos. But a whole lot less than $4k.

m.

to be clear, I used $3000 as a mid point, like a general talking point.

When we dive into details, we know 88 key versions are the most expensive, $3799 , etc etc. 61's are cheaper.

I know Kronos well-- you didn't state your key size.

Thanks for joining this lively topic.

Money is important.

Knowledge is power.

It can be a benefit when buyers/customers get behind the scenes and understand the data and the #'s.

Last edited by GregC; 07/01/20 01:29 AM.
Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3051957 07/01/20 02:50 AM
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I guess GregC was right all along. Companies maysuggest an SRP or RRP but not enforce or incentivize them. And retailers are allowed to sell at bottom prices.

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3052053 07/01/20 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by GregC
I know Kronos well-- you didn't state your key size.

88 note

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3052055 07/01/20 06:43 PM
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I feel like Kronos and those high end gear would be better off at 75-90% of the original price. Now that’s a deal I wouldn’t turn down! I think stuff like Kronos, Nord Stage, and Montage are way overpriced, and same with arranger keyboards with any sort of good programmability like the PSR-s series or Genos.

Last edited by Music Bird; 07/01/20 06:43 PM.

Yamaha MX49, Casio SK1/WK-7600, Korg Minilogue, Alesis SR-16, Casio CT-X3000, FL Studio, many VSTs, percussion, woodwinds, strings, and sound effects.
Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
Music Bird #3052069 07/01/20 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Music Bird
I feel like Kronos and those high end gear would be better off at 75-90% of the original price. Now that’s a deal I wouldn’t turn down! I think stuff like Kronos, Nord Stage, and Montage are way overpriced, and same with arranger keyboards with any sort of good programmability like the PSR-s series or Genos.

Thank you for your post. I fully agree with you.

It is interesting, there are 5 of us that have the same conclusion about the particular over priced keyboards by the top 3 manufacturers.

I have no doubt. Korg , Roland and Yamaha can easily afford to reduce their flagship MSRP by 25%.

I am referring to my gross margin analysis of Yamaha as sufficient proof of a large amount of headroom on pricing.

A 25% price reduction would not ' hurt ' their operations, it would not affect R& D over the next 10 years, the planet earth would not spin back wards, the universe would stay intact.

We don't need to ever worry about Korg, Roland or Yamaha. We don't need to go back 20,30, 40 years ago on pricing examples.

We could demand what is fair. If we choose to. Etc etc

Re: Sort of OT: Are prices on Keyboards, etc , too high ?
GregC #3052080 07/01/20 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GregC
[

I have no doubt. Korg , Roland and Yamaha can easily afford to reduce their flagship MSRP by 25%.
We could demand what is fair. If we choose to. Etc etc

Objectively I agree with you on the big three being able to reduce by 25%

My question then becomes subjective:

Why should they? What is "fair"?
Then once you determine what "fair" is how do you demand it? Vote with your dollars.

Even after that, if the company is selling the number of units they want to sell at a given price, what is their incentive?


David
Gig Rig: Roland A-88MK2 | Arturia Keylab 61 | Mac Mini | Mainstage

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