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Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
#3051017 06/25/20 10:49 PM
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On Monday, June 22, Apple made official the long-rumored announcement that it will switch from Intel processors to Apple ARM CPUs, with the first ARM Mac to be released later this year. Apple expects to complete the process in two years, although Intel support should last years longer.

To make the process as smooth as possible, Apple announced Rosetta2, a technology that will allow users to run software originally created for Intel-based Macs. (Those of us who are old enough will remember the original Rosetta, which eased the transition to Intel Macs.)

Apple also announced macOS 11 Big Sur, already available in beta for those who have compatible Macs. Additionally, iOS 14, iPadOS 14, and watchOS 7 were revealed by Apple.

For the Mac platform, this is the biggest change in 15 years, since Apple switched to Intel. The switch to ARM will mean that iOS apps will be able to run natively on the Mac (and conceivably, that Mac OS will be able to run on iPads).

More here:

Macworld | Summary: The major announcements during Apple’s WWDC2020 keynote

and here:

Snazzy Labs | macOS 11 and iOS 14 Hands-On Review (YouTube)

Best,

Geoff


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051019 06/25/20 10:57 PM
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As someone needing to upgrade from a 2015 13" Retina MBP, this announcement is intriguing.

But because I rely on it for daily actual work that pays money, the most exciting thing about this is hopefully a small price reduction opportunity for an Intel-based 16" MBP.

I gave up bleeding-edge adoptions decades ago, and I'm presuming the 2nd generation of Apple Silicon will evolve to a manageable level of transition surprises. That's what happens when I drink my cynical juice in the morning.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051020 06/25/20 10:59 PM
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I mentioned this in the iPad thread. I’m wondering if this means MainStage for iPad is in the cards. It seems like people are approximating that functionality with a mix of various apps, but I think real MainStage and Mac caliber soft synths would open the floodgates to people using controllers and iPads/iPad Pros live. Or maybe I’m just projecting what I’d do on everyone else.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051024 06/25/20 11:08 PM
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The news I’m interested in hearing is how each of the dozens of music software companies plan on dealing with this OS migration. Native Instruments, Omnisphere, UVI, etc. Some things like drivers for almost every piece of hardware I own can be wrapped because they’re not inherently high speed. But massive sampled or modeled instruments? How are they going to run for speed in a totally different architecture?

Certainly I expect Apple to recode Logic. And hopefully Mainstage.

(And of course I just updated, no sorry, had to buy a whole new version just to update, three months ago. Sorry for the whining!)

If you read about music software company responses, please post them here.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051026 06/25/20 11:12 PM
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I think this transition will be smoother than it has been in the past (power pc to intel, OS9 to OSX). They’ve done it before. They are giving the tools to developers now. It brings iOS development and OSX development closer together. And honestly behind closed doors they’ve had this working for years. The Apple Pro apps (Logic, Final Cut, etc.) are ready to go and Adobe has had early knowledge of this too. Photoshop already runs on iOS. AU3 exists on both platforms, should not be hard transition for plugin developers. However, hardware guys will have to write new drivers maybe if not using class compliant.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
ElmerJFudd #3051028 06/25/20 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I think this transition will be smoother than it has been in the past (power pc to intel, OS9 to OSX). They’ve done it before. They are giving the tools to developers now. It brings iOS development and OSX development closet together. And honestly behind closed doors they’ve had this working for years. The Apple Pro apps (Logic, Final Cut, etc.) are ready to go and Adobe has had early knowledge of this too. Photoshop already runs on iOS.

They have been serious about this for a long time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi

It's probably a good move if your compute requirements are not aligned with the intel roadmap and there are foundries who can do the job.

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051029 06/25/20 11:38 PM
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I just dropped many many $s on an iMac Pro at the beginning of the year, hoping to see 5-10 years out of it. If this means I will be hopelessly screwed in 3 years by a lack of support and functioning apps I will be....bummed.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051030 06/25/20 11:48 PM
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I wouldn’t be too worried about that. As always with computers. They’ll support the hardware for the usual amount of years. And you can use it with last/best version of everything for as long as the hardware functions.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Bobadeath #3051034 06/25/20 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobadeath
I just dropped many many $s on an iMac Pro at the beginning of the year, hoping to see 5-10 years out of it. If this means I will be hopelessly screwed in 3 years by a lack of support and functioning apps I will be....bummed.
If we go by the IBM to Intel transition it would be 3 years for native OS and another 2 years for something like Rosetta.

I also went with the iMac Pro about 1.5 years ago (after Power Mac G5 and Mac Pro). With a $5k investment, I'd keep that's running running with the last native OS and adapt to new applications with less cutting edge HW later.
Remember you don't have to upgrade the OS if everything is working fine.

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051035 06/25/20 11:58 PM
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Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs. Then 3rd party media app's probably take longer since they Apple is slow to update 3rd parties, I experienced that first hand with two the software companies I worked for. Sure Apple changed from Motorola to Intel chips, but that was CISC chip to CISC chip still big but not as difficult.

Apple also said no more support for virtualization software like Parallels once on Apple chips which will hose a lot of people so have to work on both Windows and Mac.

I would say to time to buy last Intel Mac and make it last as long as possible. Or time to start moving over to Windows and/or Linux.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051036 06/26/20 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Bobadeath
I just dropped many many $s on an iMac Pro at the beginning of the year, hoping to see 5-10 years out of it. If this means I will be hopelessly screwed in 3 years by a lack of support and functioning apps I will be....bummed.
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I wouldn’t be too worried about that. As always with computers. They’ll support the hardware for the usual amount of years. And you can use it with last/best version of everything for as long as the hardware functions.
I too expect Apple to support current models well beyond the two year transition timeline. My experience with Apple support has mostly been stellar.

In fact if I buy a Mac in the next couple of years, it will likely be an Intel Mac. I don't think that early ARM Macs will be as future-proof as later models. Certainly my 2008 Mac Pro (bought after my G5 died, during the transition to Intel) isn't as configurable today as is even a 2009 Mac Pro. It will also take awhile for developers to port their software to the new platform.

Best,

Geoff


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
PianoMan51 #3051039 06/26/20 12:08 AM
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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Docbop #3051040 06/26/20 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs. Then 3rd party media app's probably take longer since they Apple is slow to update 3rd parties, I experienced that first hand with two the software companies I worked for. Sure Apple changed from Motorola to Intel chips, but that was CISC chip to CISC chip still big but not as difficult.

Apple also said no more support for virtualization software like Parallels once on Apple chips which will hose a lot of people so have to work on both Windows and Mac.

I would say to time to buy last Intel Mac and make it last as long as possible. Or time to start moving over to Windows and/or Linux.

The reason I disagree with this is because much of the work has already happened. They’ve had OSX running on ARM for years side by side with Intel in house. We were just as surprised with the transition to Intel and the world did not end. They have working versions of the pro apps already running. The plugin guys will have to do some work but AU3 already exists on iOS and MacOS, the driver guys will have to do some work for hardware that doesn’t class compliant.

That said, the TonyMacx86 crowd will be disappointed for sure. But just as Apple never stopped them, they similarly don’t owe them any favors.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Docbop #3051051 06/26/20 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs.

Like ElmerJFudd mentions, this stuff is already done. I would bet that they've had concurrent versions of both these apps for each processor for a couple years now, in the same way that they had been running an Intel version of OS X internally for a few years before they announced anything.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051053 06/26/20 01:46 AM
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I am glad Apple continues to raise the bar, it means Windows and Linux will need to compete and we will all eventually get better operating systems.

I may have to get something for surfing the interwebs since it won't be too long before the browser wars leave my 2014 Macbook Pro behind. It's a great tool for my current studio rig and I could stay with this for years and be perfectly happy with it.

So maybe someday I'll get a cheap Billy G Box just for surfing and disconnect this one.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051063 06/26/20 02:19 AM
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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
ElmerJFudd #3051065 06/26/20 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs. Then 3rd party media app's probably take longer since they Apple is slow to update 3rd parties, I experienced that first hand with two the software companies I worked for. Sure Apple changed from Motorola to Intel chips, but that was CISC chip to CISC chip still big but not as difficult.

Apple also said no more support for virtualization software like Parallels once on Apple chips which will hose a lot of people so have to work on both Windows and Mac.

I would say to time to buy last Intel Mac and make it last as long as possible. Or time to start moving over to Windows and/or Linux.

The reason I disagree with this is because much of the work has already happened. They’ve had OSX running on ARM for years side by side with Intel in house. We were just as surprised with the transition to Intel and the world did not end. They have working versions of the pro apps already running. The plugin guys will have to do some work but AU3 already exists on iOS and MacOS, the driver guys will have to do some work for hardware that doesn’t class compliant.

That said, the TonyMacx86 crowd will be disappointed for sure. But just as Apple never stopped them, they similarly don’t owe them any favors.


I'll believe it when I see it, I've been dealing with Apple products and Apple as a company since the Apple II, first mouse I ever used was on a Apple Lisa and worked for three companies that made Mac software, one that made the dev tools many of the Apple developers used I learned to take a wait and see attitude with Apple. Plus you look at what Apple has said more than once on the past decade, they want to get out of Pro software like Logic and Final Cut because the cost of R&D is so high for the return. Then they realize Apple MBP and MP sales are driven by Logic and Final Cut so they left them alone. Apple has also said they want to stop making computer (laptops and desktops) because their vision is computing devices like iPad and iPhone. So this move to Apple chips could be their way of (excuse the pun) over turning the Apple cart. I will bet they are going to put more R&D into beefing up the iPad then a Apple chip MBP or iMac.

Actually I was disappointed when Apple went to Intel I was really hoping they would of purchased the Sparc division of Sun Microsystems. They could of gone into making their own chips with a really strong RISC processor right from the start. Maybe the Apple server might not of flopped if they had been Sparc powered.

As I said I'll believe it when I see it.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Jonathan Hughes #3051067 06/26/20 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Hughes
Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs.

Like ElmerJFudd mentions, this stuff is already done. I would bet that they've had concurrent versions of both these apps for each processor for a couple years now, in the same way that they had been running an Intel version of OS X internally for a few years before they announced anything.
Similarly, there are third-party developers who already have macOS and iOS versions of their apps. Life will get easier for them when they finally drop Intel Mac support.

It's the third-party developers of feature-rich applications—Avid's Pro Tools DAW, for example—that will have their work cut out for them.

Best,

Geoff


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051069 06/26/20 02:34 AM
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Still on a number of late 2012 Macs. Will be great to get an ARM iMac in a few months and see how it interacts with my iOS apps.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
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Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs. Then 3rd party media app's probably take longer since they Apple is slow to update 3rd parties, I experienced that first hand with two the software companies I worked for. Sure Apple changed from Motorola to Intel chips, but that was CISC chip to CISC chip still big but not as difficult.

Apple moved from IBM's Power RISC architecture to the Intel CISC.
When the announcement was made, Apple said it had been developing in parallel for a long time.

I'm pretty sure they're not going to allow the company fail because they can't get their in house apps to run.

If I were a betting man, I'd believe it before I see it since they have done it successfully before.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051075 06/26/20 03:18 AM
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I wonder how this move will effect the scientific software universe -
Macs have been resurgent in some scientific arenas (for example, structural biology, computer science and physics and biology).
The underlying “Unixeness” of OSX meant that old Unix-based software could be tweaked and improved upon to run on the Mac and Linux.
Now with a different CPU, the compatibility may not be there, and may force a shift to more programs focusing on Linux. For that reason, I would also presume there will be increaseD interest and support for ARM-based Linux.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051077 06/26/20 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Geoff Grace
Originally Posted by Jonathan Hughes
Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs.

Like ElmerJFudd mentions, this stuff is already done. I would bet that they've had concurrent versions of both these apps for each processor for a couple years now, in the same way that they had been running an Intel version of OS X internally for a few years before they announced anything.
Similarly, there are third-party developers who already have macOS and iOS versions of their apps. Life will get easier for them when they finally drop Intel Mac support.

It's the third-party developers of feature-rich applications—Avid's Pro Tools DAW, for example—that will have their work cut out for them.

Best,

Geoff

In fact iOS compared to OSX has both been adopted by more users and attracted more developers than at any time in Apple’s history. The convergence of desktop and mobile operating systems has been discussed by MS, Google and Apple for years, as has the shift to ARM. It’s exciting to see them innovating and making moves toward what comes next. What type of computing products will arrive as design gets even smaller, lighter and time between charges gets longer? Have to get there somehow.

Will Apple orphan content creation apps? It’s been a concern that pops up here and there since the success of the iPhone. Apple has ridiculous resources. Mobile devices have given them a war chest like few others. It’s easy to forget they simply bought eMagic to get into audio and used the talent to build Garage Band to drive Mac sales. I personally don’t see them dropping the pro apps at this time. But I’m not worried about it. There’s no shortage of DAWs today - shoot one might argue there’s too many.

As far as Mac Pros and what ARM is capable of. I just saw a company called Ampere has an ARM processor with up to 80 cores that competes with Xeon.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...th-up-to-80-cores-to-challenge-xeon-epyc


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051086 06/26/20 04:50 AM
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I'm hoping this move to ARM will give Apple devices a common architecture so that apps can run on all devices: iPads, iPhones and Macs. This would seem to be in-line with Apple's desire to lower development and support costs. The last few MacOS and iOS updates all seem to have elements that go in this direction. Hardware peripherals should follow suit and certify that they are compatible with all Apple hardware.

For example, in my geek dreams, Modarrt ports the ARM version of Pianoteq to the new Mac, which means it also runs on the iPad and iPhone. laugh

Hopefully it also forces software developers to think elegantly how the same app will look & feel on different screens.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Mighty Ferguson #3051087 06/26/20 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Mighty Ferguson
I mentioned this in the iPad thread. I’m wondering if this means MainStage for iPad is in the cards. It seems like people are approximating that functionality with a mix of various apps, but I think real MainStage and Mac caliber soft synths would open the floodgates to people using controllers and iPads/iPad Pros live. Or maybe I’m just projecting what I’d do on everyone else.

I have everything crossed for this. I use MainStage essentially as a fancy patch switcher on my MacBook Pro at gigs, which is total overkill. If MainStage and say the core Arturia / Native Instruments stuff all ran on iPad, I'd switch to the smaller option in a heartbeat. thu


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Docbop #3051088 06/26/20 05:00 AM
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The only company I've reached out to and hard back from so far is FabFilter, who already have all their plugins on iOS and expect this transition to be utterly trivial for them and their customers.

Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut.

Apple has already demonstrated Logic and Final Cut on new Apple Silicon-based hardware, and I fully expect both of them to be available at the same time as the hardware later this year.

Quote
Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs.

That's not true at all for the vast majority of code. Large projects are routinely moved between architectures like this. The API is identical so all high-level code will literally just compile and run. Hand-coded assembly is a different story, but it's completely unnecessary for many products and where it is used it tends to be a very small fraction of the overall code base.

Quote
Then 3rd party media app's probably take longer since they Apple is slow to update 3rd parties, I experienced that first hand with two the software companies I worked for. Sure Apple changed from Motorola to Intel chips, but that was CISC chip to CISC chip still big but not as difficult.

The change to Intel was from PowerPC, not Motorola which was the processor architecture they used even longer back. The differences between RISC and CISC are pretty irrelevant from a high-level language perspective, unlike the shift from a big-endian architecture to little-endian (PowerPC to Intel) or 32-bit to 64-bit. This transition should be a piece of cake.

... which isn't to say everyone will be there day one. Companies have varying motivations for doing the work and Apple has no control over whether they do so or not. They can make it as easy as possible, which they have done contrary to your assertion, and then it's up to third parties. The documentation available is already excellent and the tools to start trying to build projects were available to developers for free the same day this was announced. I'm using them already. Testing requires new hardware, which is easy to apply for. I've already been accepted into the program and expect I'll have everything ready for my handful of users long before there's hardware they can buy to run it on.

Quote
Apple also said no more support for virtualization software like Parallels once on Apple chips which will hose a lot of people so have to work on both Windows and Mac.

Apple has said no more boot camp, but they most definitely are supporting virtualization and have demonstrated it. It's just that virtualized environments run on the same processor architecture, so you'd have to run an arm64 version of Windows, just like you have to run an Intel version on current Macs.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051100 06/26/20 08:17 AM
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So how big is the laptop/computer market today for Apple in yearly earnings? Don't follow these headlines much, but it seems the overall trend has been towards smartphones and tablets in the last 7-10 years. Just wondering how much incentive Apple has to continue investing in desk/laptops, esp given their 5%? 10% of the market.

I welcome the integration of iPads with desk/laptop. I do my day to day on a PC, and all music stuff on an iPad.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
RandyFF #3051102 06/26/20 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyFF
So how big is the laptop/computer market today for Apple in yearly earnings? Don't follow these headlines much, but it seems the overall trend has been towards smartphones and tablets in the last 7-10 years. Just wondering how much incentive Apple has to continue investing in desk/laptops, esp given their 5%? 10% of the market.

I welcome the integration of iPads with desk/laptop. I do my day to day on a PC, and all music stuff on an iPad.
You may have answered your own question, Randy. Apple's incentive may be to sell iOS compatible Macs to iPhone and iPad users who are already invested in the ARM processor platform. Like you, many are Windows users. This may be more tempting than Intel Macs have been to a lot of iOS users.

Best,

Geoff


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051110 06/26/20 12:47 PM
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Last September i bought an imac 27 inch(2019 model, 3.1 ghz)...i hope it will not be obsoleted sooner i expected...

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051121 06/26/20 02:03 PM
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As mentioned, I'm not too worried about it. My main app on Apple is Logic Pro--and frankly I have enough 3rd-party plugins now to make a move to another DAW not that big a deal. I don't use Alchemy as much as I thought I would, though I do think Logic's stock plugins are pretty good and are a very good deal if you don't have any.

I don't like where they've been going ergonomically, I call them the "Cult of Slim". Everything's got to be razor thin and light. The keyboard is pathetic (though I haven't tried the latest.) I don't give two shits about that, leave that for the Air users, mine doesn't move in my studio. Make power machines for power users ideally (I expect that is not where the money is!)

I have to say my Windows 10 machine is very nice to use and as long as latency isn't a factor I'd be fine running a DAW on Windows. Drivers don't seem to be the headache they used to be in XP. I used to run sequencer programs on Dos and Windows 3.1 (Voyetra and Cakewalk) and they have come a LOOOOONG way! smile

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Stokely #3051123 06/26/20 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Stokely
As mentioned, I'm not too worried about it. My main app on Apple is Logic Pro--and frankly I have enough 3rd-party plugins now to make a move to another DAW not that big a deal. I don't use Alchemy as much as I thought I would, though I do think Logic's stock plugins are pretty good and are a very good deal if you don't have any.

I don't like where they've been going ergonomically, I call them the "Cult of Slim". Everything's got to be razor thin and light. The keyboard is pathetic (though I haven't tried the latest.) I don't give two shits about that, leave that for the Air users, mine doesn't move in my studio. Make power machines for power users ideally (I expect that is not where the money is!)

I have to say my Windows 10 machine is very nice to use and as long as latency isn't a factor I'd be fine running a DAW on Windows. Drivers don't seem to be the headache they used to be in XP. I used to run sequencer programs on Dos and Windows 3.1 (Voyetra and Cakewalk) and they have come a LOOOOONG way! smile

I think perhaps the #1 reason people build hackintoshes (other than hobbyists) is because people love MacOS and the Pro Apps but Apple refuses to provide content creators (artists, videographers, composers) a user configurable and upgradeable design based on more affordable processors than the Xeon. Not to mention the ability to dual boot them with other OSes, Windows, Linux, etc.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051128 06/26/20 02:54 PM
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It's a pity they outlawed running MacOS on an intel PC. Even for paid versions frown


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
miden #3051131 06/26/20 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by miden
It's a pity they outlawed running MacOS on an intel PC. Even for paid versions frown
Understandable. They make great software, but they are a hardware company. I'd like to be able to use the Nord libraries on a Casio too. wink

But the EUA hasn't stopped people from doing it anyway.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051138 06/26/20 03:29 PM
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Yeah I get that EJF, but I am talking about actually buying it, not trying to scam a copy wink Surely there is an untapped market there for them??


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
ElmerJFudd #3051148 06/26/20 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Originally Posted by Stokely
As mentioned, I'm not too worried about it. My main app on Apple is Logic Pro--and frankly I have enough 3rd-party plugins now to make a move to another DAW not that big a deal. I don't use Alchemy as much as I thought I would, though I do think Logic's stock plugins are pretty good and are a very good deal if you don't have any.

I don't like where they've been going ergonomically, I call them the "Cult of Slim". Everything's got to be razor thin and light. The keyboard is pathetic (though I haven't tried the latest.) I don't give two shits about that, leave that for the Air users, mine doesn't move in my studio. Make power machines for power users ideally (I expect that is not where the money is!)

I have to say my Windows 10 machine is very nice to use and as long as latency isn't a factor I'd be fine running a DAW on Windows. Drivers don't seem to be the headache they used to be in XP. I used to run sequencer programs on Dos and Windows 3.1 (Voyetra and Cakewalk) and they have come a LOOOOONG way! smile

I think perhaps the #1 reason people build hackintoshes (other than hobbyists) is because people love MacOS and the Pro Apps but Apple refuses to provide content creators (artists, videographers, composers) a user configurable and upgradeable design based on more affordable processors than the Xeon. Not to mention the ability to dual boot them with other OSes, Windows, Linux, etc.

I believe it. For me, an OS just has to be able to work without crashing, not have driver woes (XP), and have a way to launch the programs I use. Having a decent search is nice, which OSX has had, and win 10 seems to now have. Other than that it's just up to the software. I like Logic Pro but if forced to switch I expect I'd get used to something else. I've used a lot of sequencers and daws going back to Opcode's Vision, just have to climb that learning curve mountain each time!

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051151 06/26/20 05:28 PM
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The multi processing facilities built into the eventual desktop processing chip of the future RISC based apple CPU's are going to be essential to the power of the system. RAM bandwidth, clock, number of (fast) threads, cache size and such are comparable, but certainly not the same as number crunching Intel CPU's (or AMD's, which I didin't study much). The number of fast threads on the A12Z as is is 4, at sub 3GHz clock. Compared to 12 Complex Instruction Set CPU threads at 4.5Ghz that's probably not great for number crunching, just as there is no spec known to me about how many floating point pipelines there are on this (Acorn ?) Reduced Instruction Set Central processing unit, or how much SSE and other accelerators (including out of order execution heat), at which sustained throughput.

Software can be compiled on another processor and Operating System, that's completely normal for running Linux applications on various technology. I do wonder if the removal of "X" means that the compatibility of the Mac windowing system with the very long existing (Originally Unix based) "X windows" windowing software running on most Linux-es is lost with the advent of Wayland...

T.V.

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051177 06/26/20 08:11 PM
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The question on all our minds is, will ARM-based Macs be able to handle professional workloads such as DAW projects with lots of tracks and VIs or 4k video post-production. The WWDC keynote video tried to reassure us somewhat, by showing demos of Final Cut Pro and Maya running on their development platform, which uses a seemingly puny (for a desktop computer) A12Z Bionic CPU with 16GB of RAM. There is also this statement from the official press release:

"This will give the Mac industry-leading performance per watt and higher performance GPUs — enabling app developers to write even more powerful pro apps and high-end games."

Emphasis mine, because that's a telling phrase. To me it prefigures that Apple marketing will try to decouple any meaningful idea of heavy lifting — such as number of VIs or video streams a machine can handle smoothly — from gearhead specs we all like to watch, such as clock speed and number of CPU cores. For those old enough to remember the "Megahertz Myth" campaign, this is eerily familiar. Apple tried to argue that since their G3 and G4 processors ran more efficiently than the Intel Pentiums of the era, that comparisons based on clock speed were meaningless for professional work. Said Pentiums were boasting roughly twice the clock speed at similar price points, and Apple had to address this. In retrospect, they are now seen as not having fully delivered on that promise. The Mac won on stability, not hardware performance, because Windows at the time was problematic for creatives. That's not the case any more. I have a Windows 10 PC that was top of the line in 2013 (Dell T5600, 16-core Xeon E5-2680, 64GB RAM, eSATA SSD drives) running next to my late 2012 i7 iMac and MacBook Pro, and though Windows lacks some conveniences I've come to rely on in macOS (namely AirDrop, Preview, and device aggregation), if I am living primarily in an app ecosystem such as Adobe or Avid or DaVinci, it does not get in my way. At all.

Not to derail this thread into OS evangelism. I bought my first Mac around 1990 and have mainly been a Mac user ever since, and I'm eager to see what Apple does here. For the pro market it will come down to whether they can muster "Apple Silicon" to deliver on the promise of the Megahertz Myth days. Otherwise, if I were their competition, my marketing slogan would be, "Don't trust your mission-critical work to a phone CPU."

The fact remains that, upcoming Intel-based Macs or not, Intel is now a lame duck in the Apple pond. Several tech websites have picked up on at least one reason why: that Apple got fed up with the QC of Intel's Skylake (6th-generation) CPUs between 2015 and 2017.
https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/25/buggy-skylake-chips-hastened-apple-silicon/

If this story is credible, I have to wonder if Apple ever considered switching to AMD, whose graphics hardware they use. Even assuming today's Intel Core and Xeon chips are 100 percent reliable, AMD's 3rd-generation Ryzen 9 and Threadripper CPUs are roundly spanking them — and for way less money. If I'm content with Windows (or enough of a DIY geek for Linux) I can build a $3,000 AMD machine that will out-VI and out-render any iMac Pro you can configure in the Apple store. I can build a $5,000 computer that will smoke any 7,1 (current) Mac Pro. If you're strictly into music production and don't need high-end visual performance for video or gaming, a $1,500 build could give you years worth of overkill. I can only speculate that at the time Apple decided to fish or cut bait, the AMD advantage was not so dramatic as it is today.

That's all just a thought experiment, of course. My $0.02 at this time is that if Apple is to retain the creative market and justify their ever-higher pricing relative to PCs, they need a specific marketing message. What message? Continuity of hardware and UX between Mac, iPhone, and iPad is all well and good for the vast majority of consumers, but that misses the point for a lot of creatives. No, they also need to be talking about how their higher-end ARM desktop Macs are next-level compared to any PC. Of course, their engineers need to actually make this happen, but as to marketing, the message should be this: RISC is better. RISC is for the real pros. This message has a successful precedent from the 1980s and '90s: RISC workstations such as the DEC Alpha series and some machines from Silicon Graphics (though SGI later switched to Pentium processors). If you did 3D modeling, video, or data visualization in that era, having something like an Alpha was perceived as positively ballin' compared to any x86 PC available. If you rolled RISC, you were Mr. Spock compared to a nameless redshirt.

At least I hope they try to communicate with pros in this way, perhaps through a targeted marketing sub-team, and not merely give us "megahertz myth 2.0" and "ooh shiny" about their internal vertical integration.

How did I get off on this rant? I have an SSL SiX mixer to review ...

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051187 06/26/20 08:54 PM
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I've been using MacBookPro's for 15 years. My latest is a 2015 with 16GB and 1TB SSD. I had been buying one every 5 years. Before I retired a couple years ago I bought a 2017 iMac I7, 16GB. Earlier this week I made a hard decision. Logged onto Costco and ordered a Dell notebook. 15.6" HD touch screen, 10th generation i7, 16GB, 500 GB SSD. $800. I just could not justify the cost of an equivalent MacBookPro on a retiree salary. It was a hard decision, but I used the money I saved to buy a DJI Mavic Mini AND a DJI Mavic Air 2. Here's hoping that my iMac last a long, long time.

On the other hand, some people are now using the new iPad Pro as their laptop. Better connectivity, a decent but expensive keyboard cover, and Bluetooth connectivity for mouse or touchpad. I think I may do that in another year. In October the iPhone 12 should be released and I plan to buy the version with the better camera. It is getting to a point that I hardly use my good cameras any more.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051188 06/26/20 08:58 PM
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I guess I'm in the minority here but I have big concerns about the announcement, as expected as it was. I still rely on Windows because there are some tools you just can't get in MacOS, and for the past ~10 years, I've been able to run Windows (XP, then 7, now 10) in a VMWare virtual machine. It works amazingly well and really is the best of both worlds. Even though there's an ARM flavor of Win10, that isn't that case, and may never be the case, for some Windows apps. I guess we'll see when we get there. I'd hate to have to go back to having a dedicated Windows machine.

This is even worse news for anyone who recently dropped $50k for a fully-loaded Mac Pro.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051203 06/26/20 10:11 PM
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Quote
The question on all our minds is, will ARM-based Macs be able to handle professional workloads such as DAW projects with lots of tracks and VIs or 4k video post-production.

This is a valid question - the answer is, yes. There are already ARM based designs with up to 80 cores meant to compete with Intel’s Xeon which Apple uses in their Mac Pro and iMac Pro lines.

Just so everyone is clear, Apple has been running iOS/MacOS side by side on Atom and Intel since 2008. iOS and MacOS are the same OS there’s no distinction between the 2. The only difference is the UI framework they put on the top. For developers, Apple’s compiler is already supporting both hardware. they are already doing the recompiling on the app store for different iphones so it only downloads the code that is relevant to the hardware. This plan has been almost a decade in the making.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051204 06/26/20 10:35 PM
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I don't think Apple would ever jump to ARM if it meant taking a noticable hit in power.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051212 06/26/20 11:36 PM
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I'm glad to be within the traditional curve, such that I can easily wait out the transition. I'm not terribly concerned, as I learned to future-proof most of my data a while back & my few softsynth companies have almost always been onboard at a fair pace. I got lucky in taking up Alchemy early on, so Apple's purchase of the company was great news. I suppose it helps that I made a command decision to avoid heavy streaming plugs early on, but just as much that I'm not doing 75 tracks with a 6-piece band. A lot of people use Logic like an entire orchestra at all times. I'm a bit closer to "They're So Incredible" from "The Revenge of the Nerds." blush popcorn


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051240 06/27/20 03:30 AM
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I'm an IT Director for a medium sized corporation. I just recently removed all Macs from the enterprise. Things like this make it easy for IT groups to dislike Apple. Macs are expensive to buy, expensive to maintain, and expensive to support.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Husker #3051247 06/27/20 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Husker
I'm an IT Director for a medium sized corporation. I just recently removed all Macs from the enterprise. Things like this make it easy for IT groups to dislike Apple. Macs are expensive to buy, expensive to maintain, and expensive to support.

I get the expensive to buy bit, but why more expensive to maintain or support (if you had an all-Mac enterprise vs an all-PC enterprise)? I don't know better, just interested.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Husker #3051248 06/27/20 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Husker
I'm an IT Director for a medium sized corporation. I just recently removed all Macs from the enterprise. Things like this make it easy for IT groups to dislike Apple...
If I were a corporate IT director, I'd definitely agree with this. Why would you want to change if you've been coasting along with the PC since the beginning? As the famous quote goes, "Nobody ever got fired for going with IBM" smile

I used to be a huge thorn in the side of IT guys with my attitude of challenging them to stop being the "High Sparrow" of compute authority.

Fortunately there are plenty of companies that keep the technology moving.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Dave Holloway #3051249 06/27/20 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Holloway
Originally Posted by Husker
I'm an IT Director for a medium sized corporation. I just recently removed all Macs from the enterprise. Things like this make it easy for IT groups to dislike Apple. Macs are expensive to buy, expensive to maintain, and expensive to support.

I get the expensive to buy bit, but why more expensive to maintain or support (if you had an all-Mac enterprise vs an all-PC enterprise)? I don't know better, just interested.
Those last two puzzled me as well. I'm going to guess it has to do with Macs being less backward compatible, causing more upgrades to remain current.

Otherwise, I'm at a loss. In 30 years of being a Mac user, I've only had one bad Apple (pun intended)—my G5 that died just after three years of ownership.

Edit: Actually, I just thought of two more possible reasons. I'm guessing that Mac parts are more expensive and that repairs are more difficult given their all-in-one design.

Best,

Geoff

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051254 06/27/20 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Geoff Grace
Originally Posted by Dave Holloway
Originally Posted by Husker
I'm an IT Director for a medium sized corporation. I just recently removed all Macs from the enterprise. Things like this make it easy for IT groups to dislike Apple. Macs are expensive to buy, expensive to maintain, and expensive to support.

I get the expensive to buy bit, but why more expensive to maintain or support (if you had an all-Mac enterprise vs an all-PC enterprise)? I don't know better, just interested.
Those last two puzzled me as well. I'm going to guess it has to do with Macs being less backward compatible, causing more upgrades to remain current.

Otherwise, I'm at a loss. In 30 years of being a Mac user, I've only had one bad Apple (pun intended)—my G5 that died just after three years of ownership.

Edit: Actually, I just thought of two more possible reasons. I'm guessing that Mac parts are more expensive and that repairs are more difficult given their all-in-one design.

Best,

Geoff

most IT people don’t train or have experience with OSX so they need to hire someone who does and that right there is a yearly salary added to budget. Typically this person services the art department of a big company specifically and they have their own little network in their area separate from the rest of the place.

It’s not Apple’s market and while they can be on the network, OSX does not run the same software or versions of software solutions that might be required. It really depends on the business and what they are being used for.

Parts wise, since Apple went to Intel there’s been really no difference in parts between a Mac and a PC which is why Bootcamp works, dual boot machines, hackintoshes etc are possible. But most current Apple designs are not intended to be worked on by the owner or an IT department. You send them out to Apple certified service center. They’re not like an HP workstation where you take out 3 screws and replace a NIC card, or a hard drive, or RAM.

Apple’s niche is in mobile, education, artists doing digital content creation, small creative businesses with basic networking needs who don’t have a need or budget for an IT department.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051304 06/27/20 03:11 PM
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Actually good questions. A key metric for me for any system or application is TCO - Total Cost of Ownership. Apple products (Mac, IPhones, IPads) are just simply far more expensive to own and maintain in an enterprise than their counterparts (Windows based PCs and Android)

First, Macs on a price/performance standpoint are actually about 70% higher to purchase. But the true costs come after purchase.

For example, our enterprise standardizes on Dell computers with Windows 10, just as most enterprises do (can substitute Dell for HP, Lenovo, whatever - they are all the same). On a large support contract, Dell will charge X dollars per computer per year for maintenance and support - AppleCare will be at least 1.5x to 2X.

Replacing bad board, hard drive, or other component in standard PCs is fairly easy and inexpensive. Not so in a Mac.

The Mac OS is simply not designed to operate well in an enterprise network; for example, it does not support key technologies like Group Policy. Patch management requires expensive third party solutions, instead of free Microsoft solutions like WSUS. They don't operate well at all on Windows domains (which are important in business).

Last year, I did an analysis of our help desk hours. On average, a PC based help desk ticket was 32 minutes. A help desk ticket for a Mac was 76 minutes. That is substantial.

In our enterprise, the Mac users were predominately in the graphics and marketing departments, and primarily used the Adobe Suite. Obviously, I was the devil incarnate with the Mac users when I took them away. We even had two employees leave over it (which, I imagine now that they regret that decision). I followed up with those users after a few months on a new platform - to a person, I received the same feedback. "Once I'm in Photoshop (or Illustrator, or whatever their primary application), I can't tell any difference."

Last edited by Husker; 06/27/20 09:36 PM.

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Husker #3051350 06/27/20 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Husker
Actually good questions. A key metric for me for any system or application is TCO - Total Cost of Ownership. Apple products (Mac, IPhones, IPads) are just simply far more expensive to own and maintain in an enterprise than their counterparts (Windows based PCs and Android)

First, Macs on a price/performance standpoint around are actually about 70% higher to purchase. But the true costs come after purchase.

For example, our enterprise standardizes on Dell computers with Windows 10, just as most enterprises do (can substitute Dell for HP, Lenovo, whatever - they are all the same). On a large support contract, Dell will charge X dollars per computer per year for maintenance and support - AppleCare will be at least 1.5x to 2X.

Replacing bad board, hard drive, or other component in standard PCs is fairly easy and inexpensive. Not so in a Mac.

The Mac OS is simply not designed to operate well in an enterprise network; for example, it does not support key technologies like Group Policy. Patch management requires expensive third party solutions, instead of free Microsoft solutions like WSUS. They don't operate well at all on Windows domains (which are important in business).

Last year, I did an analysis of our help desk hours. On average, a PC based help desk ticket was 32 minutes. A help desk ticket for a Mac was 76 minutes. That is substantial.

In our enterprise, the Mac users were predominately in the graphics and marketing departments, and primarily used the Adobe Suite. Obviously, I was the devil incarnate with the Mac users when I took them away. We even had some two employees leave over it (which, I imagine now that they regret that decision). I followed up with those users after a few months on a new platform - to a person, I received the same feedback. "Once I'm in Photoshop (or Illustrator, or whatever their primary application), I can't tell any difference."

I used both Mac and PC regularly when I worked in graphics/printing industries.

That has been a while and certainly things will have changed. So I have a couple of questions or points that may or may not still be relevant. It would be fun to know the answers since I am currently running a small home studio on a Mac and am considering a Windows system for using the internet as this setup will eventually be left behind by updated browser requirements.

Are Windows updates now compiled (one install cycle) instead of consecutive? I'll never forget the day that I had hard deadlines for some trade show products and my Windows computer crashed. Our "IT Department" was one guy who was reasonably astute at maintaining Windows, we didn't have Macs there. He started "fixing" my computer and initiated a consecutive stream of updates that literally went on for hours. One would complete and the next one would start, all consecutive updates. Drove me bonkers. Mac updates have been compiled for a long time - one install and done - I hope Windows is now doing that as well. And yes, we'd use our computers as long as they worked, there was no scheduled updating. I get that you could run them all at night and nobody would notice.

The virus wars? Have they been won? What is that current situation? This one will date me but I will never forget being in a Mac-based art department for a 1,200 employee manufacturer. The "I Love You" virus hit and took out over 150 computers in the office area. IT disconnected our Macs from the network and we continued to work. Everybody else went home or cleaned up their cubicles etc. It took IT almost 60 hours to clean up that mess and a week later when somebody came back from vacation they triggered it again. Luckily, IT was on top of running backups every night so nothing important was lost.

I've preferred using Macs at home but I can use either and not really worry about it much. Pretty easy to get around on either, just a little different. Cheers, Kuru


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051359 06/27/20 06:22 PM
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Thanks Husker for the insights, interesting! In a mixed PC / Mac environment I never doubted that Macs would be comparatively more expensive but the AppleCare issue is a great point as well.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Theo Verelst #3051360 06/27/20 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Theo Verelst
The number of fast threads on the A12Z as is is 4, at sub 3GHz clock. Compared to 12 Complex Instruction Set CPU threads at 4.5Ghz that's probably not great for number crunching, just as there is no spec known to me about how many floating point pipelines there are on this (Acorn ?) Reduced Instruction Set Central processing unit, or how much SSE and other accelerators (including out of order execution heat), at which sustained throughput.

Comparing architectures on paper is always risky. You need to deeply understand the subject or you're much better off simply looking at benchmarks which measure actual real-world throughput. Here's a comparison of the most rec... Pro to the iPad Pro that uses the A12Z. Spoiler: single core performance on the A12Z was actually better than the Intel part, and multi-core performance of the iPad was around 70% of the Intel part across a range of tasks.

Considering the iPad is designed to run without a fan, entirely passively cooled so the CPU has to draw dramatically less power? That's pretty remarkable.

More importantly, the A12Z-based kit Apple is sending to developers is not what they're proposing to sell. It was just a way to repurpose an existing part to let developers hit the ground running. According to the rumor mill, the parts being designed for products coming by the end of the year have twice as many of the high-performance cores. They may well also run at a higher clock speed, and have other architectural improvements from the A14 silicon design and the underlying 5nm fabrication process Apple is using. I won't be the least bit surprised if they're 2-3x faster than the A12Z for multi-threaded tasks.

... but I know you're also interested in the raw technology. A few things to mull over:
  • the Arm v8 instruction set does indeed offer SIMD instructions along the lines of Intel's SSE/AVX extensions, and I expect there will be wider versions coming on any hardware intended to compete at the high end.
  • It's easy to discount the "efficient" cores and focus solely on the performance cores in Apple's designs, but there are very real advantages to being able to run low-priority background tasks on highly efficient cores that don't interrupt your heavy workloads, and don't heat the system up for doing work that isn't time-sensitive.
  • While an Intel 8-core design is described as a 16-thread CPU, it's not actually executing code for 16 threads at the same time. There are just eight sets of execution units that do work. So-called "simultaneous multithreading" is just a way to ensure that when work on a core is blocked it can quickly switch to a secondary workload. The operating system may see them as 16 virtual cores, but that's an illusion. The technique is not without value, but it's more about improving typical utilization rather than actually increasing peak workload capacity. It will be interesting to see if Apple adopts something similar in their own designs down the road given how many security issues have shown up that have their roots in SMT behaviors.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Theo Verelst #3051384 06/27/20 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Theo Verelst
Acorn
+1 on the Acorn reference. I don't know how many other forumites will clock that and understand it.

Cheers, Mike.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Stephen Fortner #3051427 06/28/20 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephen Fortner
The question on all our minds is, will ARM-based Macs be able to handle professional workloads such as DAW projects with lots of tracks and VIs or 4k video post-production.

I answered a similar question for myself when they released the trash-can Mac, which was clearly not for audio people. At the time I was on a cheesegrater Mac Pro (8c/64GB). First I switched from Logic to Cubase - on OS X. Then I built a PC and moved to Cubase on Windows. I've never looked back. The main rig is now l cores (16 w/HT) @ 4.8Ghz with 64GB of RAM. The clock speed really helps audio work. I edit 4k video without stuttering. Getting a "new" PC only involves a motherboard, CPU and RAM. Everything else is reusable. The stumbling of Intel, the ascendancy of AMD are all easy to take advantage of if I want to on the main rig.

Like everyone, I've run through the Apple configurator several times since the release of the new Mac Pro. I get a $9-12K Mac Pro. I can build something more powerful in a custom rack mount case for under $4k. I can't justify the pretty, shiny case, even though it is very pretty and very shiny. Those who are locked into Logic and are earning $$ from it will feel differently. In fairness, my cheesegrater tower is still used as a VEP sample server - 10 years later, so the hardware does last a long time. I'm sure the new Mac Pro is very well made. It is not out of line when compared with HP or Dell workstations. But I can't see buying one of those either (and they definitely don't look good, or engineered in any superior way).

I have had a Mac laptop continuously since around 2001. I've always bought a fully loaded top of the line MacBook Pro - about every 4-6 years. They have been rock-solid and reliable. Last year I bought a MSFT Surface to use StaffPad. The hardware is so nice - the touchscreen and Pen are wonderful - way better than anything Apple offers for a laptop. It isn't a media creation tool - but for "consumer" use, I'd rather have a Surface than an iPad Pro. The Surface runs a real OS, not a phone OS.

What has worked for me is that some audio utilities are PC, some are OS X, some are IOS - I haven't had to care - I've got one of everything.

I would love for Apple to love creatives. And I'd pay some tax to be in the club. But they are a consumer company, and it very much shows. The Mac Pro is priced for Hollywood post-houses who are going to stuff 3-6 HDX cards in there and connect to a $100K S6 controller to mix blockbuster films. Very few music producers need the horsepower in the new Mac Pro.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Husker #3051433 06/28/20 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Husker
The Mac OS is simply not designed to operate well in an enterprise network; for example, it does not support key technologies like Group Policy. Patch management requires expensive third party solutions, instead of free Microsoft solutions like WSUS. They don't operate well at all on Windows domains (which are important in business).

To add to this, IME Mac OS is just not designed with multiple users in mind. As long as you stick to one Apple ID per computer, you're good. But back in the day I wanted to set up two user accounts with two different Apple ID's on the same machine; in the end I gave up. There's no reason why this shouldn't be possible in 2020, it's really some outdated thinking on their part (DRM, etc.)

I have not heard that this has been changed.


Originally Posted by stoken6
Originally Posted by Theo Verelst
Acorn
+1 on the Acorn reference. I don't know how many other forumites will clock that and understand it.

Cheers, Mike.

The A in ARM, right?

Originally Posted by Nathanael_I
Like everyone, I've run through the Apple configurator several times since the release of the new Mac Pro. I get a $9-12K Mac Pro. I can build something more powerful in a custom rack mount case for under $4k.

Yeh, I keep coming back to this, and trying to get used to the idea that my next workstation will not be a Mac.

I'll keep a Macbook/iPad/iPhone/AppleTV setup around for general purpose stuff, but at the high performance levels it stops making sense. My buddy does Houdini VFX and built a beast PC for just shy of $6K, 18-core i9 with Nvidia RTX 2080Ti, 64GB RAM, 2x2TB SSD. To get similar performance on the MacPro you're looking at $15K.

Mac Pros were always pricey, but at least they were good value at the beginning of their life cycle. It's kind of hard to make that case now.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
zephonic #3051440 06/28/20 01:51 AM
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Quote
To add to this, IME Mac OS is just not designed with multiple users in mind. As long as you stick to one Apple ID per computer, you're good. But back in the day I wanted to set up two user accounts with two different Apple ID's on the same machine; in the end I gave up. There's no reason why this shouldn't be possible in 2020, it's really some outdated thinking on their part (DRM, etc.)

I have not heard that this has been changed.

Hi, no this is inaccurate. You can have multiple users, multiple Apple IDs on any Mac, and you can switch from one to the other without having to log out of them. These IDs also link via iCloud to all your Apple devices, iphone, iPad, etc. Bookmarks, notes, docs, calendars, etc. etc. are available and update to all). You can also choose which devices your iMessages and FaceTime, etc. route to.

I think by this time in our lives most of us have been through a significant amount of personal computers from all variety of vendors, crossed a few OS’s, used a few DAWs. As long as the machine is stable, runs the software you want to use and has enough juice to make your ideas a reality - it just doesn’t matter what you use.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
ElmerJFudd #3051464 06/28/20 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
You can have multiple users, multiple Apple IDs on any Mac, and you can switch from one to the other without having to log out of them. These IDs also link via iCloud to all your Apple devices, iphone, iPad, etc. Bookmarks, notes, docs, calendars, etc. etc. are available and update to all). You can also choose which devices your iMessages and FaceTime, etc. route to.

OK, great. When did that change? I tried this around seven years ago, must have been around Mountain Lion or Mavericks, couldn't make it work.

Last edited by zephonic; 06/28/20 04:20 AM.
Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051466 06/28/20 04:46 AM
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App£€ could make a custom OS for Logic and EXS that would be so much better than iO$ or Micro$oft.

ASIO limitations are basically limitations of the OS which is why composer and orchestral instrument library users need VEPro or 16 Core Space Heaters.

Years ago @ AES I saw Merging Technologies bypass Windows and the process only allows stealing a single core of an i7, but that single core was dedicated to their app called Pyramix.
Plug ins on 64 stereo channels, tons of VST’s {proprietary}, but still it demonstrated to others and myself how useless these one size fits all OS’s are.

I use an XITE-1 which allows a few lines of code to operate so my mixing and use of soft synths is twice the amount if I used a DAW instead of Scope/Bidule.

So I am anxiously looking for something more customized before I make a move.

Always wanted to use ESX, the best software sampler out there IMHO.

App£€ ARM CPUs would be great if a custom OS was used.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051469 06/28/20 06:14 AM
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Cutting-edge performance always moves down into consumer PCs, so to me, Apple is skating to where the puck is going to be - and that place is where off-the-shelf consumer hardware performance is so powerful it rules the market. I'd even argue that it's mostly true today, where US$1,000-2000 PCs are already overkill for most "pro" and "power" audio users. Those few who -truly- need cutting-edge performance of a Mac Pro or similar PC Workstation will become 1% or less of the market.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
stoken6 #3051480 06/28/20 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by stoken6
Originally Posted by Theo Verelst
Acorn
+1 on the Acorn reference. I don't know how many other forumites will clock that and understand it.

Cheers, Mike.

+1

I remember reading a review in a British magazine (nineties, I think) of a recently introduced personal computer by Acorn (it was the first time I heard of that company), with a new 32-bits processor developed by them, with architecture based on Mostec's 6502 they used in their previous PCs. They called the procesor ARM, which stood for Acorn Risc Machine. The review compared it with an Intel 386 and it outperformed the Intel at that time running similar applications even though the ARM ran at a much lower clock rate. At that point, the Intel based PC architecture with Microsoft Windows was becoming the de-facto standard platform for home and office so other platforms started seeing the writing in the wall. At some point, the "A" became "Advanced", so Advanced Risc Machine.

That is at least how I recall it.

Last edited by EVC; 06/28/20 11:25 AM.
Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Groove On #3051490 06/28/20 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Groove On
... today, where US$1,000-2000 PCs are already overkill for most "pro" and "power" audio users. Those few who -truly- need cutting-edge performance of a Mac Pro or similar PC Workstation will become 1% or less of the market.

^^^^^^^^^
THIS

A.C.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
zephonic #3051492 06/28/20 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by zephonic
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
You can have multiple users, multiple Apple IDs on any Mac, and you can switch from one to the other without having to log out of them. These IDs also link via iCloud to all your Apple devices, iphone, iPad, etc. Bookmarks, notes, docs, calendars, etc. etc. are available and update to all). You can also choose which devices your iMessages and FaceTime, etc. route to.

OK, great. When did that change? I tried this around seven years ago, must have been around Mountain Lion or Mavericks, couldn't make it work.
I don't understand the problem, and maybe we're talking about two different things, but I've set up Macs for multiple user accounts since Mac OS X came out (and IIRC, technically before that under Mac OS 9, but I don't recall how well that really worked).

My wife and I share Macs, and we each have our own accounts set up on each computer, and we each have our own Apple ID logged in our respective user account. That way she doesn't move around my stuff. grin I like my windows where I like them, and she puts stuff wherever works. Her method is probably more reasonable, but I never said I was reasonable. OCD and all that.

Anyway, under System Preferences, you can create users under Users and Groups. Or are you talking about something else?


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051498 06/28/20 01:52 PM
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I'm a bit different from most musicians here, in that my Macs were originally bought to expand my computer business, which had focused only on Microsoft in the past. That has benefited, although not hugely. Hardware service, of course, is not going to happen on later models, due both to difficulty in disassembly & reassembly, and to availability of parts, without going through the unjustifiable significant expense involved. However, I do have a specialty in my small town area in "Making Apple and Microsoft PLAY NICE" - that being setting up environments where both are used, and making them work well together in sharing data. My original Mini was very helpful in learning the differences between environments (both have to really do most of the same things, they just have different naming and processes to do that).
The MacBook Pro was purchased mostly as a field-service device to carry with me to client sites. Always want at least one machine that you know works. What I particularly like is the use of Parallels to run virtual machines. That way, I can have a single device that is usable with both Mac OS and Windows (and for that matter, Linux has now entered the usefulness, since I install and service NAS devices). I have found that, for deep network troubleshooting, I still need a hardware Windows notebook, because a VM doesn't respond in the same manner. Of course, I still had the little 12" HP EliteBook that I bought just to have something small to carry around (but now I need a larger screen, so I bought a used 17" HP Zbook, with ALL the bells and whistles at a very attractive price. I also have recently setup a hardware Linux computer in my shop, for such things as formatting drives (although I have a software program on the Zbook which will read or write to the Linux format).

I personally will keep my MBP running as long as possible. Parallels is an essential part of my business environment. The ability to run mixed Mac OS and Windows programs on the same machine is important to me.

My Macs run under the same Apple account, but I ALWAYS setup two local users in ANY computer. Way too useful as a way of "getting in" when the occasional problem happens with my regular user account, and that happens on Windows and the Unix/Linux/Mac OS environment.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
hardware #3051503 06/28/20 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by hardware
App£€ could make a custom OS for Logic and EXS that would be so much better than iO$ or Micro$oft.
...

Well,- possibkly a bit too early for all the speculation.
Apple already might have some ace in the sleeve for the high-end pro solution(s) and will let the ones who need pay for,- p.ex. Apple Pro - multi ARM (multicore-) processor - computers.

It was already mentioned in the other forum (and under different topic) -
Apple Logic´s channel strips and busses all run inside their dedicated threads.
I dunno how Apple´s plugins behave,- but I guess they could too.
This is not that big deal when running on Intel processors, but MIGHT become big deal when using Apple´s new multi-core ARM chips and when they rely on high core count.

So, I have at least the impression they have something already being optimized, beginning w/ OS11,- and/or at least enough stuff in the pipeline and being on the way for the upcoming switch.
There´s still some time left.

3rd party stuff might become problematic for a period of time, but Apple´s own stuff,- Garageband, Logic, Mainstage and included plugins will run, I guess.
And possibly they plan coming up w/ much more high quality plugins and some cloud based rental or such.

Already now, I know enough users doing pro work w/ Apple (hardware), Logic and included plugins alone and talk about "that´s the sound people expect to hear today".
Well, I don´t fully agree,- but when it came to MIDI,- LOGIC, as successor of ancient Commodore (Super Track), ATARI (Creator/ Notator SL / Logic ATARI) was always the very best MIDI application,- for a period of time together w/ Opcode Vision,- and today still is the king of the hill for MIDI work.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
MoodyBluesKeys #3051505 06/28/20 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MoodyBluesKeys
I have found that, for deep network troubleshooting, I still need a hardware Windows notebook, because a VM doesn't respond in the same manner.

A few years ago I had a Windows partition on my MacBook Pro set up with Boot Camp. I also had a VM app (Fusion or Parallels, I forget) and could choose whether to boot into Windows or run it in a VM while in OSX. The VM ran the Windows on my Boot Camp partition, so it didn't need the large virtual disk file with its own Windows install.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051525 06/28/20 06:01 PM
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Posted by Chris Randall, Audio Damage developer:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/definitely-whole-38639438

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Reezekeys #3051530 06/28/20 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Reezekeys
Originally Posted by MoodyBluesKeys
I have found that, for deep network troubleshooting, I still need a hardware Windows notebook, because a VM doesn't respond in the same manner.

A few years ago I had a Windows partition on my MacBook Pro set up with Boot Camp. I also had a VM app (Fusion or Parallels, I forget) and could choose whether to boot into Windows or run it in a VM while in OSX. The VM ran the Windows on my Boot Camp partition, so it didn't need the large virtual disk file with its own Windows install.
I believe the current info out there is that an ARM Mac won't be able to virtualize an x86 OS, meaning Windows VMs are a non-starter, unless you're specifically running the ARM flavor of Windows. I don't know how much Windows software will actually run on that though. I think this is likely going to be the deal breaker for a lot of IT types. It's unfortunate, because the current Intel Macs are sort of an IT Swiss army knife right now.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051532 06/28/20 06:42 PM
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Step 1 - Time to get a new external drive and make a boot drive out of it with all my current goodies and current OS (Catalina).

Step 2 - Find a cheap used Windows computer for surfing the interwebz.

Step 3 i- Disconnect my current Mac studio setup from the internet and continuing to use it. I like it.

Step 4 - Wait out all the transition pain and then some. Maybe at some point I'll consider another Mac but I tend to keep and use my Macs for a long time and it hasn't been a long time yet. It is a 2014 model but came with a new SSD and "refurbished". It was well treated by the previous owner, looks and works new.

I'm happy here, I can do what I want easily. My only concern and it will take some time - Internet browsers will leave Catalina behind, eventually.

I'll deal with the rest of it if and when...


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051536 06/28/20 07:06 PM
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If I need to run Windows again for personal reasons I'll just get a low to medium cost Windows laptop. Every time I've had to use Windows for professional reasons, I had a Windows laptop provided by the employer.

I've used Parallels and another Windows emulator on a Macbook Pro before - not fun really.

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051554 06/28/20 11:48 PM
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It would be ideal if some enterprising souls or group of companies would take the real-time Linux distribution, strip it out, and use it to make a public domain, real-time music kernel. This could be deployed on any of the modern multicore machines. By reserving even a couple cores, we would finally get a music production space that wasn't dependent on left over cycles from general purpose computing. Being able to dual boot the machine would mean anyone could also use it for gaming, or whatever else. This would do more good than anything Apple or Microsoft would do.

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051559 06/29/20 12:50 AM
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ELK music OS - Runs on Rasberry Pi

https://elk.audio/elk-audio-os-for-everyone/

The problem is - you won’t get commercial development the likes of Apple, Steinberg, Avid, etc. on a platform like this. It’s highly nerdy and therefore very niche and how does one make any $ developing for a platform used by few people. Linux has been around forever and the only DAWs I can name for it from the top of my head are Rosegarden and Tracktion. For hardware developers though, Korg has already shown you can use a Pi in a commercial product like the Wavestate.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051572 06/29/20 01:50 AM
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Reaper runs on Linux. Elk seems to just put music onto Rasberry Pi's. Clever, but not very useful. Correction, I see that it is actually a full real-time OS diving deeper into the pages. I wonder if the Reaper people would do anything with it?

RT Linux has the controls to reserve cores and such, I believe. A clever DAW company (even Reaper) could build a distribution, package it as an ISO, and it would essentially create a music appliance on whatever box loaded that image. Odds are low, I know. But it would be great for music creation and production.

Last edited by Nathanael_I; 06/29/20 01:54 AM. Reason: correcting myself
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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
ElmerJFudd #3051578 06/29/20 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
ELK music OS - Runs on Rasberry Pi

https://elk.audio/elk-audio-os-for-everyone/

The problem is - you won’t get commercial development the likes of Apple, Steinberg, Avid, etc. on a platform like this. It’s highly nerdy and therefore very niche and how does one make any $ developing for a platform used by few people. Linux has been around forever and the only DAWs I can name for it from the top of my head are Rosegarden and Tracktion. For hardware developers though, Korg has already shown you can use a Pi in a commercial product like the Wavestate.

Just a detail but Tracktion is now Waveform, on version 11. There is a free version of it as well, a very good DAW at that price if somebody wants to experiment with all of the above.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
GovernorSilver #3051585 06/29/20 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GovernorSilver
I've used Parallels and another Windows emulator on a Macbook Pro before - not fun really.
Not to pick nits, but Parallels is not a Windows emulator. Maybe you're thinking of Wine? Parallels is a virtualized BIOS, but the Windows you run on top of it is real genuine, licensed copy Microsoft Windows™.

I use VMWare Fusion - similar product to Parallels - and frankly it's amazeballs. I'm surprised that it works at all, let alone as well as it does. It's fantastic.

Currently, I am running Keil uVision5 - an embedded software development IDE, with USB real time debugger - in Windows 10 hosted within VMWare Fusion, on a ten-year old iMac with an external 30" monitor. Blows me away how well it works. About two months ago, at the same time I was running Keil, I was *simultaneously* running Rowley Crossworks (a competing ARM embedded development environment), in a separate virtual machine running Windows 7. My work files are all on shared volumes hosted within the Mac's native file system, so everything gets backed up hourly by Time Machine. And the virtual machine itself is a single file - a sparsebundle - that I can back up very easily. About to make a potentially-scary change to my Windows environment? Back up the file and if things go sideways, just delete and restore the old version.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Windows runs better in a virtualized environment than it runs on actual hardware. It will be very hard to walk away from this.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
OB Dave #3051604 06/29/20 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by OB Dave
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Windows runs better in a virtualized environment than it runs on actual hardware. It will be very hard to walk away from this.
Part of me is still hoping that Parallels or VMware (or VirtualBox?) will go through the trouble of figuring out how to virtualize x86 on Arm. I'm not even sure it's technically possible (or maybe it's possible, but perform so badly to not be worthwhile), but I'm guessing that without it the bottom will fall out of the virtualization on Mac market. I just don't know if the market is big enough to warrant the investment to make it work. IT folks and developers would be all over it, but I don't know what percentage of the Mac market that is. For a lot of developers, Linux on Arm may be enough, but again, I don't know if that's enough of a percentage to make it worth it for the virtualization companies. I'm hoping I'm totally wrong and people will crack this.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051607 06/29/20 01:41 PM
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I don't recall if Apple and it's bionic chip use the well known ARM licences for their processors, or if let's say there's object code compatibility with AWS A1 nodes or raspberry-4 libs or something. Neon is capable, but still the number crunching chip real estate space isn't necessarily similar with power greedy x86 processors of similar chip tech. Things like virtual memory facilities on a RISC processor are a little different, also depending on the exact instruction pipeline depth and lookaside table capabilities (the cache levels are comparable but a little less thus far compared with the larger CPUs). Inherent advantage of reduced instruction set processors should be short turnaround time for letting a machine instruction rip, whereas the advantage of huge out of order instruction execution and branch predicting pre-fetching with a long instruction pipeline can be more exploitation of parallelism with more chip estate available per thread processor than smaller chips (like more than one floating point and integer compute pipeline).

I like energy savings but a good Linux on x86 isn't defeated by a good A.R.M. compatible machine, even in the sense of faster UI interactions or (virtual) multi processing granularity and threading overhead necessarily, though specific facilities can be improved, like NEON or another well known accelerator part of the riscs can do 4k video encoding on a phone processor that would cost a hell of a lot of power on a big PC graphics card.

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051610 06/29/20 01:47 PM
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I have built every PC I had ever owned until my last one in 2015. At work, I started using a MacBook in 2011 and am currently using a 2015 MacBook Pro. As much as I hate to say it I may be a Mac convert. The Eco-system of the Mac OS, especially in a house with iPhones and iPads is simply hard to beat. Everything is synchronized, text message, browser bookmarks...etc so all the devices work together. Add the convenience of Airdrop and the simple fact that this 2015 MacBook runs as perfect as it did when I got it.

With the beginning of this quarantine, I started using the Logic Trial and eventually bought Logic which once upon a time I used on Windows back in the day. Although I'm not ditching having a Windows computer in the house...and still have to figure out a way to get all my old music projects off of that computer and migrated into Logic, I can't honestly say that I'd buy anything but a Mac moving forward. Despite the expense, despite the proprietary crap. The only thing that pisses me off about Apple's move to ARM is my own ability to build a Hackintosh - which maybe I should get started on sooner rather than later.

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Mike Martin #3051611 06/29/20 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Martin
I have built every PC I had ever owned until my last one in 2015. At work, I started using a MacBook in 2011 and am currently using a 2015 MacBook Pro. As much as I hate to say it I may be a Mac convert. The Eco-system of the Mac OS, especially in a house with iPhones and iPads is simply hard to beat. Everything is synchronized, text message, browser bookmarks...etc so all the devices work together. Add the convenience of Airdrop and the simple fact that this 2015 MacBook runs as perfect as it did when I got it.

With the beginning of this quarantine, I started using the Logic Trial and eventually bought Logic which once upon a time I used on Windows back in the day. Although I'm not ditching having a Windows computer in the house...and still have to figure out a way to get all my old music projects off of that computer and migrated into Logic, I can't honestly say that I'd buy anything but a Mac moving forward. Despite the expense, despite the proprietary crap. The only thing that pisses me off about Apple's move to ARM is my own ability to build a Hackintosh - which maybe I should get started on sooner rather than later.

That's their market, Mike. Yeah, loss of bootcamp and hackintosh is a disappointment but enough for me to say I'd want to leave the ecosystem where they are killing it? Nope. I'm excited to see what products come of this - and the notion that 20 million registered iOS app store developers can easily bring their apps to Apple's laptops and desktops? It's always about the software.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Theo Verelst #3051617 06/29/20 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Theo Verelst
I don't recall if Apple and it's bionic chip use the well known ARM licences for their processors, or if let's say there's object code compatibility with AWS A1 nodes or raspberry-4 libs or something. T
If I remember correctly, ARM offer two different licences. One of them is the "here's the instruction set, but you can do what you like - add GPUs, wireless radios, whatever". Apple do that with their A-series ARM processors for iPhones and iPads, so I would imagine they would continue that strategy.

Cheers, Mike.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Mighty Ferguson #3051673 06/29/20 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mighty Ferguson
Part of me is still hoping that Parallels or VMware (or VirtualBox?) will go through the trouble of figuring out how to virtualize x86 on Arm.

Microsoft already supports x86 code on the arm64 versions of Windows, so there's not necessarily a need to wait for someone else to figure it out. Presumably Apple's virtualization approach plays well with the arm64 builds of Windows, you're good to go - for strict x86, meaning 32-bit apps. As far as I'm aware, Microsoft doesn't support x86-64 code running on arm64 hardware. It's strictly a provision for older software that's less likely to be recompiled for modern CPUs.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051687 06/29/20 07:51 PM
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Interesting to hear about abandoning Macs because you won't be able to run Windows... I'm sure that will be the case for some, but it's not like a switch will be thrown on a certain date and no Mac user on any of their computers will ever be able to use Windows again. From what we've been told it's gonna be a drawn-out process that will take a few years to fully implement. Apple said they have new models with Intel processors in the pipeline. Also, older Macs remain viable computers as many of us here can attest to. New MacOSes will continue to be released for Intel Macs (yes I know, that will stop somewhere down the line).

Somehow we all lived through the transition from OS9 to OSX (first will dual-booting Macs, then with Classic). Then we somehow survived with dual-binary apps and Rosetta when Macs went to Intel processors. I'm older so I remember this stuff. Of course my computing needs were exclusively in the music field. Remember when OSX 10.0 came out? It was pretty much useless for midi applications. So what, OS9 still ran so we stayed there until the good stuff started happening. According to Apple, recompiling for their Silicon is not gonna be that tough a deal, and the fact they have Logic running on it shows that this transition may not be as painful for devs as previous ones.

For the IT guys needing a robust & fast Windows environment and wanting it to be on a Mac, well yea, you might think about getting the latest & greatest Intel Mac you can right now, or sticking with it if you already own one – but do you really see it suddenly turning obsolete because of this announcement? I think you'll have plenty of time to plan what you need to do.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Theo Verelst #3051689 06/29/20 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Theo Verelst
I don't recall if Apple and it's bionic chip use the well known ARM licences for their processors, or if let's say there's object code compatibility with AWS A1 nodes or raspberry-4 libs or something.

They license the core instruction set and collaborate on extensions, even though the actual silicon implementation is their own. That said, object code compatibility relies on more than the instruction set. The underlying libraries and ABI can and do vary across implementations. Apple's calling conventions, for example, derive from the standard but there are both points of divergence and areas left open for platform vendors to define that were always going to vary. So no, in general you can't count on object code compatibility. Object file format is another point that isn't specified by the standard, and Apple's use of Mach-O for binaries is relatively unusual (though it has some lovely advantages, like being able to package multiple architectures in a single binary.)

Quote
Neon is capable, but still the number crunching chip real estate space isn't necessarily similar with power greedy x86 processors of similar chip tech. Things like virtual memory facilities on a RISC processor are a little different, also depending on the exact instruction pipeline depth and lookaside table capabilities (the cache levels are comparable but a little less thus far compared with the larger CPUs). Inherent advantage of reduced instruction set processors should be short turnaround time for letting a machine instruction rip, whereas the advantage of huge out of order instruction execution and branch predicting pre-fetching with a long instruction pipeline can be more exploitation of parallelism with more chip estate available per thread processor than smaller chips (like more than one floating point and integer compute pipeline).

Again, paper comparisons of architectures can be wildly misleading. It's easy to fall for marketing and even people who design CPUs for a living can be surprised by what improves performance in real-world conditions and what does not. Apple's designs embrace out-of-order execution and offer sophisticated branch prediction. These are not 1990s-era RISC architectures, but aggressive high performance modern computing devices built with scalability and efficiency in mind. The SIMD implementation present in iPhones and iPads isn't as wide as Intel's, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that change with the presumed A14 derivatives to be launched later this year. It already seems like the A12 family has a respectable SIMD design to start with.

Back to the theme of my prior post: look at the actual, real-world performance of a design rather than the paper specifications to understand whether it's going to work for you. At this point, of course, that's not yet possible so some speculation is reasonable - presuming it's grounded in well-founded assumptions. We don't know what's going to wind up in the next generation of Macs, but it's only a matter of months until we will. People are going to post comparisons of Final Cut and Logic running across Intel and Apple Silicon, and I think it's foolhardy to assume that Apple would launch something new that doesn't compare favorably to what they're preparing to replace.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Lady Gaia #3051716 06/29/20 10:09 PM
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I would be surprised if Apple's ARM Macs aren't using the as-yet unannounced ARM v9 ISA and with it SVE2:
https://twitter.com/andreif7/status/1275147754424225794
https://www.anandtech.com/show/15875/apple-lays-out-plans-to-transition-macs-from-x86-to-apple-socs

I also am not convinced that there won't be x86 emulation on ARM Macs. Craig Federighi has been making the rounds on the Mac blogs and he has been quite circumspect in his comments.

Personally, I think the ARM Macs running Logic and MainStage are going to scream. There may be some pain with 3rd party audio software, though.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
OB Dave #3051722 06/29/20 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by OB Dave
Originally Posted by GovernorSilver
I've used Parallels and another Windows emulator on a Macbook Pro before - not fun really.
Not to pick nits, but Parallels is not a Windows emulator. Maybe you're thinking of Wine? Parallels is a virtualized BIOS, but the Windows you run on top of it is real genuine, licensed copy Microsoft Windows™.

I use VMWare Fusion - similar product to Parallels - and frankly it's amazeballs. I'm surprised that it works at all, let alone as well as it does. It's fantastic.

You are probably correct about Parallels. Whatever you want to call it, I used it, as well as VMWare, on my employer-provided Macbook Pro. We only used these two apps to run a couple of Windows-only apps.

I've only ever had to use Windows because I had a job that required it, and the employer always provided an applicable machine anyway, so I've had no incentive at all to invest in Windows on my own.

Last edited by GovernorSilver; 06/30/20 01:52 AM.
Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Reezekeys #3051731 06/29/20 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Reezekeys
Somehow we all lived through the transition from OS9 to OSX (first will dual-booting Macs, then with Classic). Then we somehow survived with dual-binary apps and Rosetta when Macs went to Intel processors. I'm older so I remember this stuff. Of course my computing needs were exclusively in the music field. Remember when OSX 10.0 came out? It was pretty much useless for midi applications. So what, OS9 still ran so we stayed there until the good stuff started happening.
Ah, but we knew that the guy who'd been in charge of OMS had been hired by Apple, and the mothership had also demoed the multi-channel audio capabilities built right into the system!

The excitement was palpable, at least, where I was standing (I was just a hobbyist at the time, though). OS X 10.0 felt like a glimpse of the future. :-)

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
analogika #3051740 06/30/20 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by analogika
Originally Posted by Reezekeys
Somehow we all lived through the transition from OS9 to OSX (first will dual-booting Macs, then with Classic). Then we somehow survived with dual-binary apps and Rosetta when Macs went to Intel processors. I'm older so I remember this stuff. Of course my computing needs were exclusively in the music field. Remember when OSX 10.0 came out? It was pretty much useless for midi applications. So what, OS9 still ran so we stayed there until the good stuff started happening.
Ah, but we knew that the guy who'd been in charge of OMS had been hired by Apple, and the mothership had also demoed the multi-channel audio capabilities built right into the system!

The excitement was palpable, at least, where I was standing (I was just a hobbyist at the time, though). OS X 10.0 felt like a glimpse of the future. :-)

Is it not exciting to be getting all the amazing iOS music developers, their existing apps plus their creativity and imagination suddenly about to hit on Apple’s MacBook, iMacs, Mac mini, and Mac Pros?


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
ElmerJFudd #3051742 06/30/20 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Originally Posted by analogika
Originally Posted by Reezekeys
Somehow we all lived through the transition from OS9 to OSX (first will dual-booting Macs, then with Classic). Then we somehow survived with dual-binary apps and Rosetta when Macs went to Intel processors. I'm older so I remember this stuff. Of course my computing needs were exclusively in the music field. Remember when OSX 10.0 came out? It was pretty much useless for midi applications. So what, OS9 still ran so we stayed there until the good stuff started happening.
Ah, but we knew that the guy who'd been in charge of OMS had been hired by Apple, and the mothership had also demoed the multi-channel audio capabilities built right into the system!

The excitement was palpable, at least, where I was standing (I was just a hobbyist at the time, though). OS X 10.0 felt like a glimpse of the future. :-)

Is it not exciting to be getting all the amazing iOS music developers, their existing apps plus their creativity and imagination suddenly about to hit on Apple’s MacBook, iMacs, Mac mini, and Mac Pros?
Having witnessed the relative onslaught of truly SHITTY software following the Intel transition from scores of developers who obviously had absolutely no clue how a Mac should work (or why it even existed) — the latest in my field of experience being DeMix Essentials, downloaded about six months ago — I am feeling extremely trepidatious about giving developers who've done mediocre jobs at touch interfaces the keys to the mouse-pointer-interface castle.

Yes, there will be the odd gem, but the developers who actually care about user experience mostly already develop for the Mac, anyway.

It will be good for the numbers; it won't be good for the Mac.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Lady Gaia #3051750 06/30/20 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Gaia
Originally Posted by Theo Verelst
I don't recall if Apple and it's bionic chip use the well known ARM licences for their processors, or if let's say there's object code compatibility with AWS A1 nodes or raspberry-4 libs or something.

They license the core instruction set and collaborate on extensions, even though the actual silicon implementation is their own. That said, object code compatibility relies on more than the instruction set. The underlying libraries and ABI can and do vary across implementations. Apple's calling conventions, for example, derive from the standard but there are both points of divergence and areas left open for platform vendors to define that were always going to vary. So no, in general you can't count on object code compatibility. Object file format is another point that isn't specified by the standard, and Apple's use of Mach-O for binaries is relatively unusual (though it has some lovely advantages, like being able to package multiple architectures in a single binary.)

Quote
Neon is capable, but still the number crunching chip real estate space isn't necessarily similar with power greedy x86 processors of similar chip tech. Things like virtual memory facilities on a RISC processor are a little different, also depending on the exact instruction pipeline depth and lookaside table capabilities (the cache levels are comparable but a little less thus far compared with the larger CPUs). Inherent advantage of reduced instruction set processors should be short turnaround time for letting a machine instruction rip, whereas the advantage of huge out of order instruction execution and branch predicting pre-fetching with a long instruction pipeline can be more exploitation of parallelism with more chip estate available per thread processor than smaller chips (like more than one floating point and integer compute pipeline).

Again, paper comparisons of architectures can be wildly misleading. It's easy to fall for marketing and even people who design CPUs for a living can be surprised by what improves performance in real-world conditions and what does not. Apple's designs embrace out-of-order execution and offer sophisticated branch prediction. These are not 1990s-era RISC architectures, but aggressive high performance modern computing devices built with scalability and efficiency in mind. The SIMD implementation present in iPhones and iPads isn't as wide as Intel's, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that change with the presumed A14 derivatives to be launched later this year. It already seems like the A12 family has a respectable SIMD design to start with.


Back to the theme of my prior post: look at the actual, real-world performance of a design rather than the paper specifications to understand whether it's going to work for you. At this point, of course, that's not yet possible so some speculation is reasonable - presuming it's grounded in well-founded assumptions. We don't know what's going to wind up in the next generation of Macs, but it's only a matter of months until we will. People are going to post comparisons of Final Cut and Logic running across Intel and Apple Silicon, and I think it's foolhardy to assume that Apple would launch something new that doesn't compare favorably to what they're preparing to replace.

A huge thanks to Lady Gaia for all this great insight, obviously from a point of expertise. We're lucky to have you on the forum thu


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Dave Holloway #3051771 06/30/20 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Holloway
A huge thanks to Lady Gaia for all this great insight, obviously from a point of expertise. We're lucky to have you on the forum thu

Much appreciated, Dave. Musically I'm a rank novice compared to virtually everyone here, though enthusiastic and hopeful that I can continue to learn this beguiling form of expression that captivates me so. Technology, though? That's squarely in my professional wheelhouse, so I'm happy to share what I can.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051794 06/30/20 01:09 PM
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About Windows and Mac ARM: well, there was no mention of WIndows in the keynote; and this was clearly intentional; when they shown Parallel, they talked about other OSes, and there was Linux running on it.
If they wanted to support Windows, it would have been a central point of the presentation; my personal opinion is that they will abandon that specific market.
And not for a technical reason: it would be perfectly possible to integrate Rosetta technology within a virtualisation environment, and it wouldn't even be the first time to integrate processor emulation and virtualisation (actually, emulation is a technology used often within virtualisation), may be with some help from Microsoft.

Try to answer this question: are there more people that will live the Mac because they cannot run Windows application, or more people using Mac because it can run iPhone and iPad applications ?

The switch to Apple Silicon is a lot more than a technology change; there is a shift of market vision: the Mac will not be anymore a smarter/better PC, but the high end of a platform composed by all the other Apple computing device.

Windows and PCs are irrilevant compared to smartphones.

Maurizio


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051817 06/30/20 02:15 PM
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I'll leave the tech speculation on how marvellous ARM is to others, but I see being able to use $4.99 apps like Galileo as being similar to being able to now play 128k mp3's on a $3,000 plus laptop for the first time. Good luck to all the AU developers like GSI who have previously been getting $99 plus for a top of the range AU. The race to the bottom starts now as Apple pursues its dream of owning all your bases.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051824 06/30/20 03:05 PM
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What I completelt miss and was preparing to say some essentials about is the actual difference between a Complex Instruction Set CPU machine and a Reduced Instruction set processor, let's say on comparable silicon. The theoretical and practically measurable main differences, for which it is necessary to have more in depth understanding of computer hardware, mainly in this case it comes down to having to decide what the effect will be of the smaller set of more basic instructions the A.R.M. uses compared with the larger set of more space consuming machine instructions that have been around since the early 8086 CPUs (or in mode 0 of an I7).

When I programmed some C based hardware interactions on a very early ARM-7 from Analog Devices in my digitally controlled analogue volume control project much much earlier in the 2000s than we are now, the simple instruction set and the provided compiler would be a little like an advanced C based micro controller, IIRC with a 16 bit architecture.

Apparently, some how the renewed A.R.M. architecture gained popularity since that time and gained momentum as a standard for phone processors, which until today is the case, and of course that led to enery friendly CPU design, and specific accelerators getting developed, like basic graphics and video encoding. That path of development isn't directly connected with the advancements in super computing on a desktop, and isn't necessarily a good starting point for an optimal desktop experience. So you can take a recent Raspberry 4 or clone of the same, test it as a desktop and get amazed at the extremely low price combined with advanced facilities like dual HDMI 4K screens. SSD drive connectivity, a windows-lookalike Linux variation and be happy with that for years, but if you're used to an early generation hefty I7 and want to play the modern day version of Doom on a heavily cooled graphics card, the little system might as well be non-existent.

That's not a theoretical given, maybe you could place a thousand small ARM chips in a machine to be actually faster with some scientific computation than a contemporary server blade, using a little less power. How the actual RISC advantage will play out depends on the technology where it is implemented, and the chosen parameters like pipeline depth, the problems being solved, and the implemented virtual memory management system from the A.R.M. resources or otherwise. Because that latter is a main source of slowness in many systems/OS-es, which however requires a higher computer design knowledge level to properly appreciate.

The simpler instructions of the A.R.M. should have a shorter turnaround time in the instruction execution pipeline of a tread/processor, which should make shorter loops more efficient. Also the computations of a physical address could be more efficient. Engineering a system, and a well working compiler (probably Apple can use existing gnu complier tech without having to do much work) might as well be simpler and cheaper on these systems.

I'm not a fan of the archaic backward compatible I7 architecture history, thought I'm glad my software keeps working, and must say that any tech that's not the Intel processor when taken to the same level of investment and industrial effort and chip size and integration level probably could defeat it in more than a few ways.

T.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Lady Gaia #3051825 06/30/20 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Gaia
We don't know what's going to wind up in the next generation of Macs, but it's only a matter of months until we will. People are going to post comparisons of Final Cut and Logic running across Intel and Apple Silicon, and I think it's foolhardy to assume that Apple would launch something new that doesn't compare favorably to what they're preparing to replace.

Yes; and if we consider that the silicon design cycle isn't short, for sure they have a pretty good idea of where they will exactly be in 1, 2 or 3 years.

Maurizio

PS: Lady Gaia, we are in the same profession, and i share 100% your points of view :->


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051827 06/30/20 03:12 PM
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Mike Martin said:

Quote
I have built every PC I had ever owned until my last one in 2015. At work, I started using a MacBook in 2011 and am currently using a 2015 MacBook Pro. As much as I hate to say it I may be a Mac convert. The Eco-system of the Mac OS, especially in a house with iPhones and iPads is simply hard to beat. Everything is synchronized, text message, browser bookmarks...etc so all the devices work together. Add the convenience of Airdrop and the simple fact that this 2015 MacBook runs as perfect as it did when I got it.

With the beginning of this quarantine, I started using the Logic Trial and eventually bought Logic which once upon a time I used on Windows back in the day. Although I'm not ditching having a Windows computer in the house...and still have to figure out a way to get all my old music projects off of that computer and migrated into Logic, I can't honestly say that I'd buy anything but a Mac moving forward. Despite the expense, despite the proprietary crap. The only thing that pisses me off about Apple's move to ARM is my own ability to build a Hackintosh - which maybe I should get started on sooner rather than later.

I love the Apple ecosystem for the same reasons, and could see a couple of scenarios playing out. I could have most of my digital life on Apple, and build a new PC strictly for my A/V heavy lifting. Or, I could squeeze every drop of work I can out of my late-2012 MPB and top-spec (for then) iMac, save my pennies, and get one of the higher-end ARM Macs when they come out.

I have always been fascinated by the Hackintosh idea, and the idea of having a MacOS machine based on a Ryzen Threadripper with NVME storage is sexy, because for under $5K you can build a machine that smokes any Mac Pro you can configure in the app store. But I dove into the Hackintosh community, watched a bunch of the Linus Tech Tips videos, and ran screaming. The need to tweak and admin the system seems constant, especially if one wants smooth operation (or things to work at all) with external hardware such as audio interfaces and video capture cards.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Markay #3051835 06/30/20 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Markay
I'll leave the tech speculation on how marvellous ARM is to others, but I see being able to use $4.99 apps like Galileo as being similar to being able to now play 128k mp3's on a $3,000 plus laptop for the first time. Good luck to all the AU developers like GSI who have previously been getting $99 plus for a top of the range AU. The race to the bottom starts now as Apple pursues its dream of owning all your bases.

This is a concern - however, a few thoughts on that. Small iOS developers (not Korg) accept $4.99 for an app because although Apple takes a cut, there is potential for millions of sales. Not that it turns out that way in music - but developers have discovered the freemium method where it’s free to download and install onto your device - but they have a catalog of features and/or content where they make their money through IAP.

OSX developers ask for significantly more, maybe even $199+ due to the considerably smaller market of users and their being accustomed to the pricing. One has to acknowledge few OSX music making developers offer their wares on the OSX App Store to avoid Apple taking a cut. They offer direct from developer sales and .dmg downloads of the installer - and music developers are notorious for using copy protection schemes due to the tendency of end users to share.

So I suppose going forward what will Apple‘s moves be with the laptops, iMacs and desktops? Will they continue to have a separate App Store for those devices? Will they continue to allow developers to do direct sales? Or will they lock it down like they do with iOS devices? Where end users have to jail break to do what they like with it. If they merge app stores - copy protection will be built in but Apple will take a cut, and they will need to do the freemium/IAP method to earn on their development work.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
ElmerJFudd #3051847 06/30/20 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Originally Posted by Markay
I'll leave the tech speculation on how marvellous ARM is to others, but I see being able to use $4.99 apps like Galileo as being similar to being able to now play 128k mp3's on a $3,000 plus laptop for the first time. Good luck to all the AU developers like GSI who have previously been getting $99 plus for a top of the range AU. The race to the bottom starts now as Apple pursues its dream of owning all your bases.

This is a concern - however, a few thoughts on that. Small iOS developers (not Korg) accept $4.99 for an app because although Apple takes a cut, there is potential for millions of sales. Not that it turns out that way in music - but developers have discovered the freemium method where it’s free to download and install onto your device - but they have a catalog of features and/or content where they make their money through IAP.

OSX developers ask for significantly more, maybe even $199+ due to the considerably smaller market of users and their being accustomed to the pricing. One has to acknowledge few OSX music making developers offer their wares on the OSX App Store to avoid Apple taking a cut. They offer direct from developer sales and .dmg downloads of the installer - and music developers are notorious for using copy protection schemes due to the tendency of end users to share.

So I suppose going forward what will Apple‘s moves be with the laptops, iMacs and desktops? Will they continue to have a separate App Store for those devices? Will they continue to allow developers to do direct sales? Or will they lock it down like they do with iOS devices? Where end users have to jail break to do what they like with it. If they merge app stores - copy protection will be built in but Apple will take a cut, and they will need to do the freemium/IAP method to earn on their development work.
I'm guessing we might see prices settle in a middle ground somewhere. Yes, there are lots of $4.99 apps, but there are also a handful of apps that approach desktop class that are priced higher. IK B3-X for example, which gets a lot of praise around here is around $80 on IOS I believe.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Mighty Ferguson #3051851 06/30/20 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mighty Ferguson
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Originally Posted by Markay
I'll leave the tech speculation on how marvellous ARM is to others, but I see being able to use $4.99 apps like Galileo as being similar to being able to now play 128k mp3's on a $3,000 plus laptop for the first time. Good luck to all the AU developers like GSI who have previously been getting $99 plus for a top of the range AU. The race to the bottom starts now as Apple pursues its dream of owning all your bases.

This is a concern - however, a few thoughts on that. Small iOS developers (not Korg) accept $4.99 for an app because although Apple takes a cut, there is potential for millions of sales. Not that it turns out that way in music - but developers have discovered the freemium method where it’s free to download and install onto your device - but they have a catalog of features and/or content where they make their money through IAP.

OSX developers ask for significantly more, maybe even $199+ due to the considerably smaller market of users and their being accustomed to the pricing. One has to acknowledge few OSX music making developers offer their wares on the OSX App Store to avoid Apple taking a cut. They offer direct from developer sales and .dmg downloads of the installer - and music developers are notorious for using copy protection schemes due to the tendency of end users to share.

So I suppose going forward what will Apple‘s moves be with the laptops, iMacs and desktops? Will they continue to have a separate App Store for those devices? Will they continue to allow developers to do direct sales? Or will they lock it down like they do with iOS devices? Where end users have to jail break to do what they like with it. If they merge app stores - copy protection will be built in but Apple will take a cut, and they will need to do the freemium/IAP method to earn on their development work.
I'm guessing we might see prices settle in a middle ground somewhere. Yes, there are lots of $4.99 apps, but there are also a handful of apps that approach desktop class that are priced higher. IK B3-X for example, which gets a lot of praise around here is around $80 on IOS I believe.

Right, the developer needs to set their price at what is feasible as a business model and what they believe their app is worth to the end user. People I feel general don’t mind paying for quality and support.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051878 06/30/20 06:08 PM
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My bet is that we will see machines that turn into macOS machines when hooked up to external monitor / mouse and iOS machines when used on the go.

It will be interesting to see how Apple keeps the two separate, to avoid the mess that was Surface.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Theo Verelst #3051902 06/30/20 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Theo Verelst
Engineering a system, and a well working compiler (probably Apple can use existing gnu complier tech without having to do much work) might as well be simpler and cheaper on these systems.

Apple moved on from GCC about a decade ago, putting significant time and energy into the LLVM community and building the foundations of the clang compiler. They've been using it to target arm64 for many years now, and the code-generation quality is pretty remarkable. LLVM itself is solid foundation for modern compiler research with lots of fascinating work going on in JITs and GPU targets as well as conventional batch compilation. LLVM is also at the heart of their Rosetta binary translation technology.

Originally Posted by mauriziodececco
PS: Lady Gaia, we are in the same profession, and i share 100% your points of view :->

Greetings! It's amazing how much overlap there is between music and various technical fields. I spent a couple of decades building developer tools, much of it at Microsoft and Apple, so this is all near and dear to my heart. Your point about CPU timelines is absolutely spot on - I was routinely involved in discussions of CPU silicon several years in advance, though we're finally past the end of the roadmap I was intimately familiar with.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051911 06/30/20 08:36 PM
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The IOS user community is a bit notorious for being cheapskates. I suspect their fantasy of $10 Logic Pro for IOS will remain exactly that, and prices are more likely to rise towards MacOS app level than the opposite.

Last edited by GovernorSilver; 06/30/20 10:08 PM.
Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
analogika #3051920 06/30/20 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by analogika
The excitement was palpable, at least, where I was standing (I was just a hobbyist at the time, though). OS X 10.0 felt like a glimpse of the future. :-)

As I remember it, the hype was strong with OSX 10.0 and what its potential was. It just took a long time for decent midi software to come out for it.

I try to keep my "hype detector" on in these circumstances. This major "historic" platform change will have zero effect on what I do with music and computers in terms of forcing me to change anything. And I suspect that will be the case with most folks here too, despite the "sky is falling" talk. Maybe I'm just lucky that I don't need a specific OS to do what I do.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051983 07/01/20 08:31 AM
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Well, gcc was earlier to compile for Risc, and is needed to compile the Linux kernel, it's used in Xilinx FPGA tools and in NVidia's Cuda tools. I used an LLVM created in a (unix) processor design project (not my project, nor much contributed to by me) and just liked with Gnu tools, there's a lot of stuff I'd prefer different.It appears speed victory comes mainly from gcc except the compilation itself..

I'm not sure the foundation (or what the common denominator org is called) for LLVM tools after Chris Lattner is such a great improvement over the Gnu management and academic values, but I'm in favor of competition, maybe we'll be running Apple quality on the Raspberry Pi one day!

T

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052134 07/02/20 02:54 AM
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In the follow video, Snazzy Labs makes a good case that macOS Big Sur is designed for touchscreen use:

Snazzy Labs | macOS Big Sur’s Big Secret

Best,

Geoff


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052166 07/02/20 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Geoff Grace
In the follow video, Snazzy Labs makes a good case that macOS Big Sur is designed for touchscreen use:

Snazzy Labs | macOS Big Sur’s Big Secret

Best,

Geoff

Totally reasonable. As iOS and MacOS merge on the same hardware it makes total sense to give the laptops touch screens since every app on the iOS App Store is designed for that GUI. I’m expecting MacBooks to get Tablet/Laptop foldable design and a stylus like the MS Surface. iMacs maybe will go back to a neck that allows the screen to be reoriented and reangled for the iOS version of Photoshop.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
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Was really surprised/amazed, a housemate recently bought a used mac book for around $2k and it doesn't even have a touchscreen! I'd probably never buy a laptop that doesn't.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052194 07/02/20 04:45 PM
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Their reasoning, or excuse, has always been the "gorilla arm" (crink in your neck and shoulders from holding your arm out for long periods) and the idea that OSX and OSX apps aren't designed to offer a touch screen experience that is at the quality Apple expects. However, iOS apps are very much designed for touch screen. So I expect changes in the Mac hardware designs that make them more ergonomic for touch screen - folding laptop/tablet with stylus, and an iMac that resembles the Surface Studio 2 driven by Adobe products - especially Photoshop and InDesign, Illustrator etc. Adobe already has full photoshop working on the iPad Pro.

And this is why it's exciting to me, to see Apple make this bold move - for whatever the short term pains are - because their designs for the creative market are about to get very interesting. A version of Logic or MainStage, Final Cut that are really designed from the ground up with a touch screen GUI in mind? A way better experience for us than adding a touch screen with no leg work done on the hardware or the software. And as usual, since Apple controls the hardware and the OS (and to some extent the apps) the user experience is just expected to be excellent.



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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052196 07/02/20 05:07 PM
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^^^ I am all in for touchscreen technology in the new Macs. The Apple Pen already well outperforms the Wacom stylus/pad but is only available on the iPad. Implementing that for Photoshop, Painter and other programs on a full sized screen could be a game changer.

At some point, DAW and Plugin developers will realize how cool it would be to be able to "paint" a little bit of chorus effect on that piano track here and a touch of Leslie on the guitar there, etc. Mybe they already have and I just don't know because I don't have the capability (yet).

I have seen those touch screen synths for the iPad where you can drag things around and make new sounds. I like that, it appeals to the Artist while accomplishing the Engineer's tasks. So often, that is both of me.

So much faster than animating the same effects!!!!!


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052224 07/02/20 07:57 PM
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I don't expect every macOS machine to move toward touchscreen because of the "gorilla arm" issue, but I won't be shocked if they do some form of convertible. For the desktops and other hardware where it would always be something of a compromised experience with integrated displays or HDMI connections, you can use an iPad and Apple Pencil as a second screen and they work surprisingly well together - presuming you have software designed with a stylus in mind.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052244 07/02/20 10:35 PM
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I worked for Digital Semiconductor (Alpha), AMD and various computer manufacturers. There are a lot of business decisions that surround choice of processor and vendor, most of which have nothing to do with the "best technology."

The number of customers for commodity microprocessors is small (Apple, HP, Sony, etc.) and few suppliers (Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, etc.) Yep, customers include video game console companies, too. The playing field is not level. There are few genuine opportunities to win a closed platform like Macintosh or a video game console. When the opportunity arises, the knives come out and deals are cut. In the past, the x86 market has seen its share of anti-competitive behavior by large suppliers with deep pockets and best technology does't always win.

Apple has been actively building IC design staff and they've done quite well. That's a lot of non-recurring engineering cost (salaries, etc.) to be spread across units. More units, more spread. Move Mac to ARM, more units and better amortization of design costs.

Apple is a bit of a "customer from Hell." You won't hear Intel AMD, or nVidia say it. (I'm retired now.) :-) Apple are perceived as a flagship, trophy customer even though their volume is smaller than other x86-based vendors. For x86, Apple can only play Intel vs. AMD. So, where do you get price leverage? Ta-da, that IC design staff doing Apple silicon. Now, you can play yourself against Intel and AMD, knowing that you have already ported to ARM.

Lord knows there are other factors and instruction set, thread count, etc. aren't the show-stopper issues. Of course, we'll have to see how this affects music applications and our work platforms.

All the best -- pj

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052258 07/03/20 01:42 AM
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As the Snazzy Labs video I most recently linked to above suggested (worth a watch, BTW), the "gorilla arm" issue is somewhat mitigated by Apple's Magic Pad, which can substitute for fingers on a touchscreen in some ways. As he also mentions, the icons on the Big Sur menu bar are spread farther apart, which makes no sense for mouse use and much more sense for tapping with fingers. He offers further support for his assertion in the video.

He also reminds us that, by default, all iOS apps will appear in the Mac Apple Store from day one, unless the developers themselves remove them. How clunky will they be to use without touchscreen support? That answer may vary from app to app; but his guess (and mine) is that Apple will want to make the experience as elegant as possible, and a touchscreen would go a long way to help.

In short, using a touchscreen Mac in Big Sur would be similar to using the keyboard version of an iPad Pro, interfacing via the keyboard for some things, and the screen (and Magic Pad) for others.

Best,

Geoff


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052393 07/03/20 07:10 PM
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I have seen others coming to the same conclusion as SnazzyLabs, and find the changes to Big Sur compelling evidence. I think after the departure of Jonny Ive, Apple is less dogmatic about design issues, including that reaching up to touch a laptop screen is oh-so wrong.

Slate or Surface-style laptops, more configurable iMacs? I think they’re coming.

I have an iPad Pro and Magic Keyboard. A laptop designed from the beginning as a hybrid would be very interesting.

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