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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Lady Gaia #3051825 06/30/20 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Gaia
We don't know what's going to wind up in the next generation of Macs, but it's only a matter of months until we will. People are going to post comparisons of Final Cut and Logic running across Intel and Apple Silicon, and I think it's foolhardy to assume that Apple would launch something new that doesn't compare favorably to what they're preparing to replace.

Yes; and if we consider that the silicon design cycle isn't short, for sure they have a pretty good idea of where they will exactly be in 1, 2 or 3 years.

Maurizio

PS: Lady Gaia, we are in the same profession, and i share 100% your points of view :->


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051827 06/30/20 03:12 PM
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Mike Martin said:

Quote
I have built every PC I had ever owned until my last one in 2015. At work, I started using a MacBook in 2011 and am currently using a 2015 MacBook Pro. As much as I hate to say it I may be a Mac convert. The Eco-system of the Mac OS, especially in a house with iPhones and iPads is simply hard to beat. Everything is synchronized, text message, browser bookmarks...etc so all the devices work together. Add the convenience of Airdrop and the simple fact that this 2015 MacBook runs as perfect as it did when I got it.

With the beginning of this quarantine, I started using the Logic Trial and eventually bought Logic which once upon a time I used on Windows back in the day. Although I'm not ditching having a Windows computer in the house...and still have to figure out a way to get all my old music projects off of that computer and migrated into Logic, I can't honestly say that I'd buy anything but a Mac moving forward. Despite the expense, despite the proprietary crap. The only thing that pisses me off about Apple's move to ARM is my own ability to build a Hackintosh - which maybe I should get started on sooner rather than later.

I love the Apple ecosystem for the same reasons, and could see a couple of scenarios playing out. I could have most of my digital life on Apple, and build a new PC strictly for my A/V heavy lifting. Or, I could squeeze every drop of work I can out of my late-2012 MPB and top-spec (for then) iMac, save my pennies, and get one of the higher-end ARM Macs when they come out.

I have always been fascinated by the Hackintosh idea, and the idea of having a MacOS machine based on a Ryzen Threadripper with NVME storage is sexy, because for under $5K you can build a machine that smokes any Mac Pro you can configure in the app store. But I dove into the Hackintosh community, watched a bunch of the Linus Tech Tips videos, and ran screaming. The need to tweak and admin the system seems constant, especially if one wants smooth operation (or things to work at all) with external hardware such as audio interfaces and video capture cards.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Markay #3051835 06/30/20 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Markay
I'll leave the tech speculation on how marvellous ARM is to others, but I see being able to use $4.99 apps like Galileo as being similar to being able to now play 128k mp3's on a $3,000 plus laptop for the first time. Good luck to all the AU developers like GSI who have previously been getting $99 plus for a top of the range AU. The race to the bottom starts now as Apple pursues its dream of owning all your bases.

This is a concern - however, a few thoughts on that. Small iOS developers (not Korg) accept $4.99 for an app because although Apple takes a cut, there is potential for millions of sales. Not that it turns out that way in music - but developers have discovered the freemium method where it’s free to download and install onto your device - but they have a catalog of features and/or content where they make their money through IAP.

OSX developers ask for significantly more, maybe even $199+ due to the considerably smaller market of users and their being accustomed to the pricing. One has to acknowledge few OSX music making developers offer their wares on the OSX App Store to avoid Apple taking a cut. They offer direct from developer sales and .dmg downloads of the installer - and music developers are notorious for using copy protection schemes due to the tendency of end users to share.

So I suppose going forward what will Apple‘s moves be with the laptops, iMacs and desktops? Will they continue to have a separate App Store for those devices? Will they continue to allow developers to do direct sales? Or will they lock it down like they do with iOS devices? Where end users have to jail break to do what they like with it. If they merge app stores - copy protection will be built in but Apple will take a cut, and they will need to do the freemium/IAP method to earn on their development work.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
ElmerJFudd #3051847 06/30/20 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Originally Posted by Markay
I'll leave the tech speculation on how marvellous ARM is to others, but I see being able to use $4.99 apps like Galileo as being similar to being able to now play 128k mp3's on a $3,000 plus laptop for the first time. Good luck to all the AU developers like GSI who have previously been getting $99 plus for a top of the range AU. The race to the bottom starts now as Apple pursues its dream of owning all your bases.

This is a concern - however, a few thoughts on that. Small iOS developers (not Korg) accept $4.99 for an app because although Apple takes a cut, there is potential for millions of sales. Not that it turns out that way in music - but developers have discovered the freemium method where it’s free to download and install onto your device - but they have a catalog of features and/or content where they make their money through IAP.

OSX developers ask for significantly more, maybe even $199+ due to the considerably smaller market of users and their being accustomed to the pricing. One has to acknowledge few OSX music making developers offer their wares on the OSX App Store to avoid Apple taking a cut. They offer direct from developer sales and .dmg downloads of the installer - and music developers are notorious for using copy protection schemes due to the tendency of end users to share.

So I suppose going forward what will Apple‘s moves be with the laptops, iMacs and desktops? Will they continue to have a separate App Store for those devices? Will they continue to allow developers to do direct sales? Or will they lock it down like they do with iOS devices? Where end users have to jail break to do what they like with it. If they merge app stores - copy protection will be built in but Apple will take a cut, and they will need to do the freemium/IAP method to earn on their development work.
I'm guessing we might see prices settle in a middle ground somewhere. Yes, there are lots of $4.99 apps, but there are also a handful of apps that approach desktop class that are priced higher. IK B3-X for example, which gets a lot of praise around here is around $80 on IOS I believe.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Mighty Ferguson #3051851 06/30/20 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mighty Ferguson
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Originally Posted by Markay
I'll leave the tech speculation on how marvellous ARM is to others, but I see being able to use $4.99 apps like Galileo as being similar to being able to now play 128k mp3's on a $3,000 plus laptop for the first time. Good luck to all the AU developers like GSI who have previously been getting $99 plus for a top of the range AU. The race to the bottom starts now as Apple pursues its dream of owning all your bases.

This is a concern - however, a few thoughts on that. Small iOS developers (not Korg) accept $4.99 for an app because although Apple takes a cut, there is potential for millions of sales. Not that it turns out that way in music - but developers have discovered the freemium method where it’s free to download and install onto your device - but they have a catalog of features and/or content where they make their money through IAP.

OSX developers ask for significantly more, maybe even $199+ due to the considerably smaller market of users and their being accustomed to the pricing. One has to acknowledge few OSX music making developers offer their wares on the OSX App Store to avoid Apple taking a cut. They offer direct from developer sales and .dmg downloads of the installer - and music developers are notorious for using copy protection schemes due to the tendency of end users to share.

So I suppose going forward what will Apple‘s moves be with the laptops, iMacs and desktops? Will they continue to have a separate App Store for those devices? Will they continue to allow developers to do direct sales? Or will they lock it down like they do with iOS devices? Where end users have to jail break to do what they like with it. If they merge app stores - copy protection will be built in but Apple will take a cut, and they will need to do the freemium/IAP method to earn on their development work.
I'm guessing we might see prices settle in a middle ground somewhere. Yes, there are lots of $4.99 apps, but there are also a handful of apps that approach desktop class that are priced higher. IK B3-X for example, which gets a lot of praise around here is around $80 on IOS I believe.

Right, the developer needs to set their price at what is feasible as a business model and what they believe their app is worth to the end user. People I feel general don’t mind paying for quality and support.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051878 06/30/20 06:08 PM
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My bet is that we will see machines that turn into macOS machines when hooked up to external monitor / mouse and iOS machines when used on the go.

It will be interesting to see how Apple keeps the two separate, to avoid the mess that was Surface.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Theo Verelst #3051902 06/30/20 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Theo Verelst
Engineering a system, and a well working compiler (probably Apple can use existing gnu complier tech without having to do much work) might as well be simpler and cheaper on these systems.

Apple moved on from GCC about a decade ago, putting significant time and energy into the LLVM community and building the foundations of the clang compiler. They've been using it to target arm64 for many years now, and the code-generation quality is pretty remarkable. LLVM itself is solid foundation for modern compiler research with lots of fascinating work going on in JITs and GPU targets as well as conventional batch compilation. LLVM is also at the heart of their Rosetta binary translation technology.

Originally Posted by mauriziodececco
PS: Lady Gaia, we are in the same profession, and i share 100% your points of view :->

Greetings! It's amazing how much overlap there is between music and various technical fields. I spent a couple of decades building developer tools, much of it at Microsoft and Apple, so this is all near and dear to my heart. Your point about CPU timelines is absolutely spot on - I was routinely involved in discussions of CPU silicon several years in advance, though we're finally past the end of the roadmap I was intimately familiar with.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051911 06/30/20 08:36 PM
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The IOS user community is a bit notorious for being cheapskates. I suspect their fantasy of $10 Logic Pro for IOS will remain exactly that, and prices are more likely to rise towards MacOS app level than the opposite.

Last edited by GovernorSilver; 06/30/20 10:08 PM.
Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
analogika #3051920 06/30/20 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by analogika
The excitement was palpable, at least, where I was standing (I was just a hobbyist at the time, though). OS X 10.0 felt like a glimpse of the future. :-)

As I remember it, the hype was strong with OSX 10.0 and what its potential was. It just took a long time for decent midi software to come out for it.

I try to keep my "hype detector" on in these circumstances. This major "historic" platform change will have zero effect on what I do with music and computers in terms of forcing me to change anything. And I suspect that will be the case with most folks here too, despite the "sky is falling" talk. Maybe I'm just lucky that I don't need a specific OS to do what I do.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051983 07/01/20 08:31 AM
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Well, gcc was earlier to compile for Risc, and is needed to compile the Linux kernel, it's used in Xilinx FPGA tools and in NVidia's Cuda tools. I used an LLVM created in a (unix) processor design project (not my project, nor much contributed to by me) and just liked with Gnu tools, there's a lot of stuff I'd prefer different.It appears speed victory comes mainly from gcc except the compilation itself..

I'm not sure the foundation (or what the common denominator org is called) for LLVM tools after Chris Lattner is such a great improvement over the Gnu management and academic values, but I'm in favor of competition, maybe we'll be running Apple quality on the Raspberry Pi one day!

T

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052134 07/02/20 02:54 AM
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In the follow video, Snazzy Labs makes a good case that macOS Big Sur is designed for touchscreen use:

Snazzy Labs | macOS Big Sur’s Big Secret

Best,

Geoff


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052166 07/02/20 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Geoff Grace
In the follow video, Snazzy Labs makes a good case that macOS Big Sur is designed for touchscreen use:

Snazzy Labs | macOS Big Sur’s Big Secret

Best,

Geoff

Totally reasonable. As iOS and MacOS merge on the same hardware it makes total sense to give the laptops touch screens since every app on the iOS App Store is designed for that GUI. I’m expecting MacBooks to get Tablet/Laptop foldable design and a stylus like the MS Surface. iMacs maybe will go back to a neck that allows the screen to be reoriented and reangled for the iOS version of Photoshop.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052192 07/02/20 04:36 PM
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Was really surprised/amazed, a housemate recently bought a used mac book for around $2k and it doesn't even have a touchscreen! I'd probably never buy a laptop that doesn't.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052194 07/02/20 04:45 PM
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Their reasoning, or excuse, has always been the "gorilla arm" (crink in your neck and shoulders from holding your arm out for long periods) and the idea that OSX and OSX apps aren't designed to offer a touch screen experience that is at the quality Apple expects. However, iOS apps are very much designed for touch screen. So I expect changes in the Mac hardware designs that make them more ergonomic for touch screen - folding laptop/tablet with stylus, and an iMac that resembles the Surface Studio 2 driven by Adobe products - especially Photoshop and InDesign, Illustrator etc. Adobe already has full photoshop working on the iPad Pro.

And this is why it's exciting to me, to see Apple make this bold move - for whatever the short term pains are - because their designs for the creative market are about to get very interesting. A version of Logic or MainStage, Final Cut that are really designed from the ground up with a touch screen GUI in mind? A way better experience for us than adding a touch screen with no leg work done on the hardware or the software. And as usual, since Apple controls the hardware and the OS (and to some extent the apps) the user experience is just expected to be excellent.



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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052196 07/02/20 05:07 PM
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^^^ I am all in for touchscreen technology in the new Macs. The Apple Pen already well outperforms the Wacom stylus/pad but is only available on the iPad. Implementing that for Photoshop, Painter and other programs on a full sized screen could be a game changer.

At some point, DAW and Plugin developers will realize how cool it would be to be able to "paint" a little bit of chorus effect on that piano track here and a touch of Leslie on the guitar there, etc. Mybe they already have and I just don't know because I don't have the capability (yet).

I have seen those touch screen synths for the iPad where you can drag things around and make new sounds. I like that, it appeals to the Artist while accomplishing the Engineer's tasks. So often, that is both of me.

So much faster than animating the same effects!!!!!


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052224 07/02/20 07:57 PM
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I don't expect every macOS machine to move toward touchscreen because of the "gorilla arm" issue, but I won't be shocked if they do some form of convertible. For the desktops and other hardware where it would always be something of a compromised experience with integrated displays or HDMI connections, you can use an iPad and Apple Pencil as a second screen and they work surprisingly well together - presuming you have software designed with a stylus in mind.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052244 07/02/20 10:35 PM
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I worked for Digital Semiconductor (Alpha), AMD and various computer manufacturers. There are a lot of business decisions that surround choice of processor and vendor, most of which have nothing to do with the "best technology."

The number of customers for commodity microprocessors is small (Apple, HP, Sony, etc.) and few suppliers (Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, etc.) Yep, customers include video game console companies, too. The playing field is not level. There are few genuine opportunities to win a closed platform like Macintosh or a video game console. When the opportunity arises, the knives come out and deals are cut. In the past, the x86 market has seen its share of anti-competitive behavior by large suppliers with deep pockets and best technology does't always win.

Apple has been actively building IC design staff and they've done quite well. That's a lot of non-recurring engineering cost (salaries, etc.) to be spread across units. More units, more spread. Move Mac to ARM, more units and better amortization of design costs.

Apple is a bit of a "customer from Hell." You won't hear Intel AMD, or nVidia say it. (I'm retired now.) :-) Apple are perceived as a flagship, trophy customer even though their volume is smaller than other x86-based vendors. For x86, Apple can only play Intel vs. AMD. So, where do you get price leverage? Ta-da, that IC design staff doing Apple silicon. Now, you can play yourself against Intel and AMD, knowing that you have already ported to ARM.

Lord knows there are other factors and instruction set, thread count, etc. aren't the show-stopper issues. Of course, we'll have to see how this affects music applications and our work platforms.

All the best -- pj

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052258 07/03/20 01:42 AM
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As the Snazzy Labs video I most recently linked to above suggested (worth a watch, BTW), the "gorilla arm" issue is somewhat mitigated by Apple's Magic Pad, which can substitute for fingers on a touchscreen in some ways. As he also mentions, the icons on the Big Sur menu bar are spread farther apart, which makes no sense for mouse use and much more sense for tapping with fingers. He offers further support for his assertion in the video.

He also reminds us that, by default, all iOS apps will appear in the Mac Apple Store from day one, unless the developers themselves remove them. How clunky will they be to use without touchscreen support? That answer may vary from app to app; but his guess (and mine) is that Apple will want to make the experience as elegant as possible, and a touchscreen would go a long way to help.

In short, using a touchscreen Mac in Big Sur would be similar to using the keyboard version of an iPad Pro, interfacing via the keyboard for some things, and the screen (and Magic Pad) for others.

Best,

Geoff


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3052393 07/03/20 07:10 PM
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I have seen others coming to the same conclusion as SnazzyLabs, and find the changes to Big Sur compelling evidence. I think after the departure of Jonny Ive, Apple is less dogmatic about design issues, including that reaching up to touch a laptop screen is oh-so wrong.

Slate or Surface-style laptops, more configurable iMacs? I think they’re coming.

I have an iPad Pro and Magic Keyboard. A laptop designed from the beginning as a hybrid would be very interesting.

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