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Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
#3051017 06/25/20 10:49 PM
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On Monday, June 22, Apple made official the long-rumored announcement that it will switch from Intel processors to Apple ARM CPUs, with the first ARM Mac to be released later this year. Apple expects to complete the process in two years, although Intel support should last years longer.

To make the process as smooth as possible, Apple announced Rosetta2, a technology that will allow users to run software originally created for Intel-based Macs. (Those of us who are old enough will remember the original Rosetta, which eased the transition to Intel Macs.)

Apple also announced macOS 11 Big Sur, already available in beta for those who have compatible Macs. Additionally, iOS 14, iPadOS 14, and watchOS 7 were revealed by Apple.

For the Mac platform, this is the biggest change in 15 years, since Apple switched to Intel. The switch to ARM will mean that iOS apps will be able to run natively on the Mac (and conceivably, that Mac OS will be able to run on iPads).

More here:

Macworld | Summary: The major announcements during Apple’s WWDC2020 keynote

and here:

Snazzy Labs | macOS 11 and iOS 14 Hands-On Review (YouTube)

Best,

Geoff


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051019 06/25/20 10:57 PM
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As someone needing to upgrade from a 2015 13" Retina MBP, this announcement is intriguing.

But because I rely on it for daily actual work that pays money, the most exciting thing about this is hopefully a small price reduction opportunity for an Intel-based 16" MBP.

I gave up bleeding-edge adoptions decades ago, and I'm presuming the 2nd generation of Apple Silicon will evolve to a manageable level of transition surprises. That's what happens when I drink my cynical juice in the morning.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051020 06/25/20 10:59 PM
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I mentioned this in the iPad thread. I’m wondering if this means MainStage for iPad is in the cards. It seems like people are approximating that functionality with a mix of various apps, but I think real MainStage and Mac caliber soft synths would open the floodgates to people using controllers and iPads/iPad Pros live. Or maybe I’m just projecting what I’d do on everyone else.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051024 06/25/20 11:08 PM
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The news I’m interested in hearing is how each of the dozens of music software companies plan on dealing with this OS migration. Native Instruments, Omnisphere, UVI, etc. Some things like drivers for almost every piece of hardware I own can be wrapped because they’re not inherently high speed. But massive sampled or modeled instruments? How are they going to run for speed in a totally different architecture?

Certainly I expect Apple to recode Logic. And hopefully Mainstage.

(And of course I just updated, no sorry, had to buy a whole new version just to update, three months ago. Sorry for the whining!)

If you read about music software company responses, please post them here.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051026 06/25/20 11:12 PM
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I think this transition will be smoother than it has been in the past (power pc to intel, OS9 to OSX). They’ve done it before. They are giving the tools to developers now. It brings iOS development and OSX development closer together. And honestly behind closed doors they’ve had this working for years. The Apple Pro apps (Logic, Final Cut, etc.) are ready to go and Adobe has had early knowledge of this too. Photoshop already runs on iOS. AU3 exists on both platforms, should not be hard transition for plugin developers. However, hardware guys will have to write new drivers maybe if not using class compliant.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
ElmerJFudd #3051028 06/25/20 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I think this transition will be smoother than it has been in the past (power pc to intel, OS9 to OSX). They’ve done it before. They are giving the tools to developers now. It brings iOS development and OSX development closet together. And honestly behind closed doors they’ve had this working for years. The Apple Pro apps (Logic, Final Cut, etc.) are ready to go and Adobe has had early knowledge of this too. Photoshop already runs on iOS.

They have been serious about this for a long time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi

It's probably a good move if your compute requirements are not aligned with the intel roadmap and there are foundries who can do the job.

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051029 06/25/20 11:38 PM
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I just dropped many many $s on an iMac Pro at the beginning of the year, hoping to see 5-10 years out of it. If this means I will be hopelessly screwed in 3 years by a lack of support and functioning apps I will be....bummed.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051030 06/25/20 11:48 PM
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I wouldn’t be too worried about that. As always with computers. They’ll support the hardware for the usual amount of years. And you can use it with last/best version of everything for as long as the hardware functions.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Bobadeath #3051034 06/25/20 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobadeath
I just dropped many many $s on an iMac Pro at the beginning of the year, hoping to see 5-10 years out of it. If this means I will be hopelessly screwed in 3 years by a lack of support and functioning apps I will be....bummed.
If we go by the IBM to Intel transition it would be 3 years for native OS and another 2 years for something like Rosetta.

I also went with the iMac Pro about 1.5 years ago (after Power Mac G5 and Mac Pro). With a $5k investment, I'd keep that's running running with the last native OS and adapt to new applications with less cutting edge HW later.
Remember you don't have to upgrade the OS if everything is working fine.

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051035 06/25/20 11:58 PM
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Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs. Then 3rd party media app's probably take longer since they Apple is slow to update 3rd parties, I experienced that first hand with two the software companies I worked for. Sure Apple changed from Motorola to Intel chips, but that was CISC chip to CISC chip still big but not as difficult.

Apple also said no more support for virtualization software like Parallels once on Apple chips which will hose a lot of people so have to work on both Windows and Mac.

I would say to time to buy last Intel Mac and make it last as long as possible. Or time to start moving over to Windows and/or Linux.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051036 06/26/20 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Bobadeath
I just dropped many many $s on an iMac Pro at the beginning of the year, hoping to see 5-10 years out of it. If this means I will be hopelessly screwed in 3 years by a lack of support and functioning apps I will be....bummed.
Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I wouldn’t be too worried about that. As always with computers. They’ll support the hardware for the usual amount of years. And you can use it with last/best version of everything for as long as the hardware functions.
I too expect Apple to support current models well beyond the two year transition timeline. My experience with Apple support has mostly been stellar.

In fact if I buy a Mac in the next couple of years, it will likely be an Intel Mac. I don't think that early ARM Macs will be as future-proof as later models. Certainly my 2008 Mac Pro (bought after my G5 died, during the transition to Intel) isn't as configurable today as is even a 2009 Mac Pro. It will also take awhile for developers to port their software to the new platform.

Best,

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
PianoMan51 #3051039 06/26/20 12:08 AM
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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Docbop #3051040 06/26/20 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs. Then 3rd party media app's probably take longer since they Apple is slow to update 3rd parties, I experienced that first hand with two the software companies I worked for. Sure Apple changed from Motorola to Intel chips, but that was CISC chip to CISC chip still big but not as difficult.

Apple also said no more support for virtualization software like Parallels once on Apple chips which will hose a lot of people so have to work on both Windows and Mac.

I would say to time to buy last Intel Mac and make it last as long as possible. Or time to start moving over to Windows and/or Linux.

The reason I disagree with this is because much of the work has already happened. They’ve had OSX running on ARM for years side by side with Intel in house. We were just as surprised with the transition to Intel and the world did not end. They have working versions of the pro apps already running. The plugin guys will have to do some work but AU3 already exists on iOS and MacOS, the driver guys will have to do some work for hardware that doesn’t class compliant.

That said, the TonyMacx86 crowd will be disappointed for sure. But just as Apple never stopped them, they similarly don’t owe them any favors.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Docbop #3051051 06/26/20 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs.

Like ElmerJFudd mentions, this stuff is already done. I would bet that they've had concurrent versions of both these apps for each processor for a couple years now, in the same way that they had been running an Intel version of OS X internally for a few years before they announced anything.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051053 06/26/20 01:46 AM
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I am glad Apple continues to raise the bar, it means Windows and Linux will need to compete and we will all eventually get better operating systems.

I may have to get something for surfing the interwebs since it won't be too long before the browser wars leave my 2014 Macbook Pro behind. It's a great tool for my current studio rig and I could stay with this for years and be perfectly happy with it.

So maybe someday I'll get a cheap Billy G Box just for surfing and disconnect this one.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051063 06/26/20 02:19 AM
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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
ElmerJFudd #3051065 06/26/20 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs. Then 3rd party media app's probably take longer since they Apple is slow to update 3rd parties, I experienced that first hand with two the software companies I worked for. Sure Apple changed from Motorola to Intel chips, but that was CISC chip to CISC chip still big but not as difficult.

Apple also said no more support for virtualization software like Parallels once on Apple chips which will hose a lot of people so have to work on both Windows and Mac.

I would say to time to buy last Intel Mac and make it last as long as possible. Or time to start moving over to Windows and/or Linux.

The reason I disagree with this is because much of the work has already happened. They’ve had OSX running on ARM for years side by side with Intel in house. We were just as surprised with the transition to Intel and the world did not end. They have working versions of the pro apps already running. The plugin guys will have to do some work but AU3 already exists on iOS and MacOS, the driver guys will have to do some work for hardware that doesn’t class compliant.

That said, the TonyMacx86 crowd will be disappointed for sure. But just as Apple never stopped them, they similarly don’t owe them any favors.


I'll believe it when I see it, I've been dealing with Apple products and Apple as a company since the Apple II, first mouse I ever used was on a Apple Lisa and worked for three companies that made Mac software, one that made the dev tools many of the Apple developers used I learned to take a wait and see attitude with Apple. Plus you look at what Apple has said more than once on the past decade, they want to get out of Pro software like Logic and Final Cut because the cost of R&D is so high for the return. Then they realize Apple MBP and MP sales are driven by Logic and Final Cut so they left them alone. Apple has also said they want to stop making computer (laptops and desktops) because their vision is computing devices like iPad and iPhone. So this move to Apple chips could be their way of (excuse the pun) over turning the Apple cart. I will bet they are going to put more R&D into beefing up the iPad then a Apple chip MBP or iMac.

Actually I was disappointed when Apple went to Intel I was really hoping they would of purchased the Sparc division of Sun Microsystems. They could of gone into making their own chips with a really strong RISC processor right from the start. Maybe the Apple server might not of flopped if they had been Sparc powered.

As I said I'll believe it when I see it.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Jonathan Hughes #3051067 06/26/20 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Hughes
Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs.

Like ElmerJFudd mentions, this stuff is already done. I would bet that they've had concurrent versions of both these apps for each processor for a couple years now, in the same way that they had been running an Intel version of OS X internally for a few years before they announced anything.
Similarly, there are third-party developers who already have macOS and iOS versions of their apps. Life will get easier for them when they finally drop Intel Mac support.

It's the third-party developers of feature-rich applications—Avid's Pro Tools DAW, for example—that will have their work cut out for them.

Best,

Geoff


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051069 06/26/20 02:34 AM
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Still on a number of late 2012 Macs. Will be great to get an ARM iMac in a few months and see how it interacts with my iOS apps.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
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Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs. Then 3rd party media app's probably take longer since they Apple is slow to update 3rd parties, I experienced that first hand with two the software companies I worked for. Sure Apple changed from Motorola to Intel chips, but that was CISC chip to CISC chip still big but not as difficult.

Apple moved from IBM's Power RISC architecture to the Intel CISC.
When the announcement was made, Apple said it had been developing in parallel for a long time.

I'm pretty sure they're not going to allow the company fail because they can't get their in house apps to run.

If I were a betting man, I'd believe it before I see it since they have done it successfully before.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051075 06/26/20 03:18 AM
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I wonder how this move will effect the scientific software universe -
Macs have been resurgent in some scientific arenas (for example, structural biology, computer science and physics and biology).
The underlying “Unixeness” of OSX meant that old Unix-based software could be tweaked and improved upon to run on the Mac and Linux.
Now with a different CPU, the compatibility may not be there, and may force a shift to more programs focusing on Linux. For that reason, I would also presume there will be increaseD interest and support for ARM-based Linux.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051077 06/26/20 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Geoff Grace
Originally Posted by Jonathan Hughes
Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut. Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs.

Like ElmerJFudd mentions, this stuff is already done. I would bet that they've had concurrent versions of both these apps for each processor for a couple years now, in the same way that they had been running an Intel version of OS X internally for a few years before they announced anything.
Similarly, there are third-party developers who already have macOS and iOS versions of their apps. Life will get easier for them when they finally drop Intel Mac support.

It's the third-party developers of feature-rich applications—Avid's Pro Tools DAW, for example—that will have their work cut out for them.

Best,

Geoff

In fact iOS compared to OSX has both been adopted by more users and attracted more developers than at any time in Apple’s history. The convergence of desktop and mobile operating systems has been discussed by MS, Google and Apple for years, as has the shift to ARM. It’s exciting to see them innovating and making moves toward what comes next. What type of computing products will arrive as design gets even smaller, lighter and time between charges gets longer? Have to get there somehow.

Will Apple orphan content creation apps? It’s been a concern that pops up here and there since the success of the iPhone. Apple has ridiculous resources. Mobile devices have given them a war chest like few others. It’s easy to forget they simply bought eMagic to get into audio and used the talent to build Garage Band to drive Mac sales. I personally don’t see them dropping the pro apps at this time. But I’m not worried about it. There’s no shortage of DAWs today - shoot one might argue there’s too many.

As far as Mac Pros and what ARM is capable of. I just saw a company called Ampere has an ARM processor with up to 80 cores that competes with Xeon.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...th-up-to-80-cores-to-challenge-xeon-epyc


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051086 06/26/20 04:50 AM
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I'm hoping this move to ARM will give Apple devices a common architecture so that apps can run on all devices: iPads, iPhones and Macs. This would seem to be in-line with Apple's desire to lower development and support costs. The last few MacOS and iOS updates all seem to have elements that go in this direction. Hardware peripherals should follow suit and certify that they are compatible with all Apple hardware.

For example, in my geek dreams, Modarrt ports the ARM version of Pianoteq to the new Mac, which means it also runs on the iPad and iPhone. laugh

Hopefully it also forces software developers to think elegantly how the same app will look & feel on different screens.

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Mighty Ferguson #3051087 06/26/20 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Mighty Ferguson
I mentioned this in the iPad thread. I’m wondering if this means MainStage for iPad is in the cards. It seems like people are approximating that functionality with a mix of various apps, but I think real MainStage and Mac caliber soft synths would open the floodgates to people using controllers and iPads/iPad Pros live. Or maybe I’m just projecting what I’d do on everyone else.

I have everything crossed for this. I use MainStage essentially as a fancy patch switcher on my MacBook Pro at gigs, which is total overkill. If MainStage and say the core Arturia / Native Instruments stuff all ran on iPad, I'd switch to the smaller option in a heartbeat. thu


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Docbop #3051088 06/26/20 05:00 AM
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The only company I've reached out to and hard back from so far is FabFilter, who already have all their plugins on iOS and expect this transition to be utterly trivial for them and their customers.

Originally Posted by Docbop
Apple fans don't see how big a change this is and it's not going to be quick especially for software even Apple own Logic and Final Cut.

Apple has already demonstrated Logic and Final Cut on new Apple Silicon-based hardware, and I fully expect both of them to be available at the same time as the hardware later this year.

Quote
Moving from a CISC chip to a RISC requires rewriting complex software you just can't cross compile for involved programs.

That's not true at all for the vast majority of code. Large projects are routinely moved between architectures like this. The API is identical so all high-level code will literally just compile and run. Hand-coded assembly is a different story, but it's completely unnecessary for many products and where it is used it tends to be a very small fraction of the overall code base.

Quote
Then 3rd party media app's probably take longer since they Apple is slow to update 3rd parties, I experienced that first hand with two the software companies I worked for. Sure Apple changed from Motorola to Intel chips, but that was CISC chip to CISC chip still big but not as difficult.

The change to Intel was from PowerPC, not Motorola which was the processor architecture they used even longer back. The differences between RISC and CISC are pretty irrelevant from a high-level language perspective, unlike the shift from a big-endian architecture to little-endian (PowerPC to Intel) or 32-bit to 64-bit. This transition should be a piece of cake.

... which isn't to say everyone will be there day one. Companies have varying motivations for doing the work and Apple has no control over whether they do so or not. They can make it as easy as possible, which they have done contrary to your assertion, and then it's up to third parties. The documentation available is already excellent and the tools to start trying to build projects were available to developers for free the same day this was announced. I'm using them already. Testing requires new hardware, which is easy to apply for. I've already been accepted into the program and expect I'll have everything ready for my handful of users long before there's hardware they can buy to run it on.

Quote
Apple also said no more support for virtualization software like Parallels once on Apple chips which will hose a lot of people so have to work on both Windows and Mac.

Apple has said no more boot camp, but they most definitely are supporting virtualization and have demonstrated it. It's just that virtualized environments run on the same processor architecture, so you'd have to run an arm64 version of Windows, just like you have to run an Intel version on current Macs.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051100 06/26/20 08:17 AM
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So how big is the laptop/computer market today for Apple in yearly earnings? Don't follow these headlines much, but it seems the overall trend has been towards smartphones and tablets in the last 7-10 years. Just wondering how much incentive Apple has to continue investing in desk/laptops, esp given their 5%? 10% of the market.

I welcome the integration of iPads with desk/laptop. I do my day to day on a PC, and all music stuff on an iPad.


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
RandyFF #3051102 06/26/20 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyFF
So how big is the laptop/computer market today for Apple in yearly earnings? Don't follow these headlines much, but it seems the overall trend has been towards smartphones and tablets in the last 7-10 years. Just wondering how much incentive Apple has to continue investing in desk/laptops, esp given their 5%? 10% of the market.

I welcome the integration of iPads with desk/laptop. I do my day to day on a PC, and all music stuff on an iPad.
You may have answered your own question, Randy. Apple's incentive may be to sell iOS compatible Macs to iPhone and iPad users who are already invested in the ARM processor platform. Like you, many are Windows users. This may be more tempting than Intel Macs have been to a lot of iOS users.

Best,

Geoff


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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051110 06/26/20 12:47 PM
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Last September i bought an imac 27 inch(2019 model, 3.1 ghz)...i hope it will not be obsoleted sooner i expected...

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Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Geoff Grace #3051121 06/26/20 02:03 PM
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As mentioned, I'm not too worried about it. My main app on Apple is Logic Pro--and frankly I have enough 3rd-party plugins now to make a move to another DAW not that big a deal. I don't use Alchemy as much as I thought I would, though I do think Logic's stock plugins are pretty good and are a very good deal if you don't have any.

I don't like where they've been going ergonomically, I call them the "Cult of Slim". Everything's got to be razor thin and light. The keyboard is pathetic (though I haven't tried the latest.) I don't give two shits about that, leave that for the Air users, mine doesn't move in my studio. Make power machines for power users ideally (I expect that is not where the money is!)

I have to say my Windows 10 machine is very nice to use and as long as latency isn't a factor I'd be fine running a DAW on Windows. Drivers don't seem to be the headache they used to be in XP. I used to run sequencer programs on Dos and Windows 3.1 (Voyetra and Cakewalk) and they have come a LOOOOONG way! smile

Re: Apple moves from Intel to ARM and from macOS X to macOS 11
Stokely #3051123 06/26/20 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Stokely
As mentioned, I'm not too worried about it. My main app on Apple is Logic Pro--and frankly I have enough 3rd-party plugins now to make a move to another DAW not that big a deal. I don't use Alchemy as much as I thought I would, though I do think Logic's stock plugins are pretty good and are a very good deal if you don't have any.

I don't like where they've been going ergonomically, I call them the "Cult of Slim". Everything's got to be razor thin and light. The keyboard is pathetic (though I haven't tried the latest.) I don't give two shits about that, leave that for the Air users, mine doesn't move in my studio. Make power machines for power users ideally (I expect that is not where the money is!)

I have to say my Windows 10 machine is very nice to use and as long as latency isn't a factor I'd be fine running a DAW on Windows. Drivers don't seem to be the headache they used to be in XP. I used to run sequencer programs on Dos and Windows 3.1 (Voyetra and Cakewalk) and they have come a LOOOOONG way! smile

I think perhaps the #1 reason people build hackintoshes (other than hobbyists) is because people love MacOS and the Pro Apps but Apple refuses to provide content creators (artists, videographers, composers) a user configurable and upgradeable design based on more affordable processors than the Xeon. Not to mention the ability to dual boot them with other OSes, Windows, Linux, etc.


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