Is Behringer significant competition to Korg,Yamaha, Roland?

[Song80s]

This is a take a step back, look at the bigger picture question I have.

 

I like competition. Why ? Usually it results in lower prices for consumers.

 

You might recall I recently asserted that Roland, Korg, Yamaha is enjoying

very high profit margins on their $3000-$4000 keyboards, Montage, Kronos, Fantom, for example.

 

The big 3 have practically created and groomed that high end niche so it makes sense they

would enjoy it and capitalize on high margin.

 

90% of folks on that thread disagreed with me. I appreciate that. I enjoyed the lively discussion.

 

Not doing a re-heash here. You can find that debate thread and feel free to bring it back to life.

 

Ok, so back to Topic. Is Behringer making inroads to keyboard niches mostly dominated by the

Big Dogs ?

 

I know some of their boards have caught interest here... but indulge me. My topic/Question isn't about

the Model D or a specific. Its about Behringer success into competing with product groups,

specifically the more expensive stuff.

 

Is Behringer achieving a level of success and is the product quality holding up ?

 

Thank you.

[Mighty Ferguson]

To me it seems like the (relatively) inexpensive Behringer analogs might actually be more competition for the soft synth companies. Just this past weekend coincidentally, I was comparing the sound of my Behringer D with Arturia's Mini V, by dialing up the same setting on each. I thought the Behringer sounded considerably better, when the built in effects in the Arturia software weren't part of the equation.

[Tom Fiala]

I look at this question based on separate market areas:

 

a) low price. No doubt, Behringer is increasing competition here in the low cost market. This allows entry-level enthusiasts to get a taste of synth excitement. It allows collectors to add a clone to their collection, with modern reliability and without major cost issues. So that's where they are competing with the Big 3.

b) high end - Not much here yet from Behringer.

c) Innovation & advancement of the field: Not much yet from Behringer. Making photocopies is not the same as creating original works of art, even if the copies are good and their status is legal.

[CEB]

Behringer doesn"t currently make anything I want regardless of quality. It relates to the thread of why rack synths have disappeared ... because with modern gear they are unnecessary. Clones of obsolete gigging gear doesn"t interest me. The Odyssey and SH-101 are fun but I have the originals if I so desire. But they have no place in my rig either.

[Song80s]

I look at this question based on separate market areas:

 

a) low price. No doubt, Behringer is increasing competition here in the low cost market. This allows entry-level enthusiasts to get a taste of synth excitement. It allows collectors to add a clone to their collection, with modern reliability and without major cost issues. So that's where they are competing with the Big 3.

b) high end - Not much here yet from Behringer.

c) Innovation & advancement of the field: Not much yet from Behringer. Making photocopies is not the same as creating original works of art, even if the copies are good and their status is legal.

 

Thanks, Tom. Thats the level of discussion I find interesting.

 

To clarify, in case I haven't, I am not talking about $50 mic's and $100 monitors by Behringer etc etc.

 

I think Behringer is building their rep and approach on the fickle niche end on synths.

Essentially ' buying ' into that space.

 

I also like how Behringer pre-announces product plans. I am not the type that gets upset when a projected available date slips by

90 days or simply goes "''Pooof """.

[ElmerJFudd]

In keyboards, synths? and/or in the larger MI market. Sales figures will likely show them killing it in areas where 'good enough' typically wins. Beginner guitar and keyboard amps, entry level audio interfaces, guitar pedals, etc. I also know they"ve made some in roads with their X series mixers due to price/performance ratio - aggravating Yamaha no doubt (and Presonus who also scratch and claw at Yamaha in this field). With the analogue synthesizers Behringer has without a doubt cut into Roland"s sound toys market. Where Roland wanted to sell less capable digital facsimiles of their analogue history - Behringer is practically, well actually really selling reissues. Korg and Yamaha have also dabbled in sound toys. So the Behringer copy cat approach must be hurting those efforts as consumers only have so much of their budget allotted to such things and the Model D, Poly D, Odyssey, TD3, VC340, RD8, etc. are all quite good.

 

With the Deep Mind 12 the Midas team has already proved that they are hungry and I won't be surprised if they are already working on flagship type synths, maybe even a workstation. Uli will use the money generated from the knock offs to fuel the R&D for instruments that raise the brand up.

 

That said, the only Behringer product I own is a $40 patchbay (which apparently goes for $98.99 now). Simple device. Works great. The only one I'm interested in owning is the DM12. But would I choose it over others? Hard to say. Yes, their ethics and questionable moves on social media are bothersome.

[Stokely]

I don't like the company much, and don't desire most of their products, so no--not for me. If they can improve their behavior I'd consider buying their stuff if they came out with something I needed.

 

I do own a Behringer interface (bought before I learned more about them) and honestly it's been great for several years, so I do think they can make some good gear.

 

Synth-wise, I like the deepmind the most out of the ones I know about, simply because while it's loosely based on a Roland they added their own functionality and make it a bit of a unique beast at that price point. That's what gets me about staying *exactly* to the old gear specs--the old gear didn't do that, it was innovation from what came before! Take advantage of technology and move things forward.

[ElmerJFudd]

To me it seems like the (relatively) inexpensive Behringer analogs might actually be more competition for the soft synth companies. Just this past weekend coincidentally, I was comparing the sound of my Behringer D with Arturia's Mini V, by dialing up the same setting on each. I thought the Behringer sounded considerably better, when the built in effects in the Arturia software weren't part of the equation.

 

Good point.

[Outkaster]

Behringer is the Coors Light of keyboards.

[Bill H.]

To me it seems like the (relatively) inexpensive Behringer analogs might actually be more competition for the soft synth companies. Just this past weekend coincidentally, I was comparing the sound of my Behringer D with Arturia's Mini V, by dialing up the same setting on each. I thought the Behringer sounded considerably better, when the built in effects in the Arturia software weren't part of the equation.

 

Good point.

 

^ Yeah that plus smaller shops producing nostalgic analogs like Moog and Dave Smith. I don't view Behringer as being much competition for the big guys... yet.

[AnotherScott]

If you're just talking about keyboards, I'd say they don't really compete with Yamaha. The only kind of keyboard Behringer makes are analog synths, and Yamaha doesn't make any analog synths, or even any VA except for the Reface CS, which is a tiny share of their keyboard space.

[Adan]

I don't want to move this towards the political, but isn't it high time to stop buying stuff that's cheaper just because it's made in China. I'm not even referring to the crazy conspiracy stuff, just the issues we can all agree on as to why buying from the country that can make it most cheaply isn't the best thing. The "cheaper from China" credo has been so much a part of our world for so long, it's easy to say well, there's nothing I can do about it, I might as well buy the stuff and enjoy the savings. But if not now, when? And if not you, who?

 

The Poly D was intriguing and has 2 additional "para" voices but I ended up getting a Moog Subsequent 37, in large part because I felt better about supporting that company. I also happen to believe the Moog is likely to be a better instrument and better long term investment t.

 

I realize it's easy to oversimply these issues. How many parts in my Moog was sourced from China? I don't know, but it could be significant.

[ElmerJFudd]

I don't want to move this towards the political, but isn't it high time to stop buying stuff that's cheaper just because it's made in China. I'm not even referring to the crazy conspiracy stuff, just the issues we can all agree on as to why buying from the country that can make it most cheaply isn't the best thing. The "cheaper from China" credo has been so much a part of our world for so long, it's easy to say well, there's nothing I can do about it, I might as well buy the stuff and enjoy the savings. But if not now, when? And if not you, who?

 

The Poly D was intriguing and has 2 additional "para" voices but I ended up getting a Moog Subsequent 37, in large part because I felt better about supporting that company. I also happen to believe the Moog is likely to be a better instrument and better long term investment t.

 

I realize it's easy to oversimply these issues. How many parts in my Moog was sourced from China? I don't know, but it could be significant.

 

The MI business is like all businesses - consumers expect a great price, investors expect a healthy profit margin.

[Adan]

I don't want to move this towards the political, but isn't it high time to stop buying stuff that's cheaper just because it's made in China. I'm not even referring to the crazy conspiracy stuff, just the issues we can all agree on as to why buying from the country that can make it most cheaply isn't the best thing. The "cheaper from China" credo has been so much a part of our world for so long, it's easy to say well, there's nothing I can do about it, I might as well buy the stuff and enjoy the savings. But if not now, when? And if not you, who?

 

The Poly D was intriguing and has 2 additional "para" voices but I ended up getting a Moog Subsequent 37, in large part because I felt better about supporting that company. I also happen to believe the Moog is likely to be a better instrument and better long term investment t.

 

I realize it's easy to oversimply these issues. How many parts in my Moog was sourced from China? I don't know, but it could be significant.

 

The MI business is like all businesses - consumers expect a great price, investors expect a healthy profit margin.

 

As a consumer I try to take responsibility for the consequences of my buying choices. In the last few years especially we've heard so much complaining about China, from many different perspectives. All I'm saying here is that I shouldn't complain about China (and I do, btw) while buying products made there simply because they are cheaper, when other choices are available. If I have problems with China (and I do!), I should factor that into every buying decision.

[uhoh7]

I bought the Deepmind 12, and it singlehandedly taught me synth basics, at just under 600US and with help from the youtube gurus. Anyone familar with the DM12 knows it is one of the best single part synths ever made, period, at any price.

 

I also bought the RD-8. I use it every day, basically. It's more of a pure clone than the DM12, and it's cloning a pretty straight-laced machine to start. If I knew as much about drum machines then as now I would not have got it----but that would have been a mistake. The lovely thing about it is the interface. Big buttons etc.

 

So far nothing else is a must have.....although I like the D and the Neutron, I don't need them. I never bought them.

 

The only thing I would change on the DM12 is the keys, though they play fine when tweaked properly. Like the Numa CX2 (TP-9), the keys are REALLY plastic. Once you start playing you forget it, in both cases.

 

Yamaha and Roland have both built their own "inter-spheres", which Yamaha is maintaining more consistently. Both are still reeling from the DAW revolution, which has it's own awful "spheres" full of half-baked metaphors and epic rabbitholes.

 

Uli has wisely avoided all that. Uli has his own pie, which used to be called "the used synth market". If only he had the same social sense. Even if he did, he would still be a pariah, because he does not play the "sponser" game which supports alot of movers and shakers, many so used to brown-nosing they can't wait to dump on somebody when there won't be consequences, and it's "correct".

 

Obviously Yamaha and Roland don't feel threatened in any way. They were never going to produce Uli's line. They continue to despise their clientle with moves like Yamaha's omission of AT on otherwise good products, and Roland's arbitrary offerings, which feature equally bizarre choices.

 

Uli is making mostly analog synths.....who else is really doing that? Smaller houses, making specialty stuff. Korg still leans well digital. I'd say Uli gets the bad press (which is way better than no press), but the real "bad boy" is still the DAW Laptop. It has turned Roland and Yamaha into caricatures of their once powerful, innovative selves. They remained confused and irrevelvant in sound design, a condition made more acute by the retirement of a whole generation of heavy hitters within those companies. The hardware on Yamaha is two generations behind, and Roland has discovered the RasPi can do everything they are after at a tiny cost. Neither are "reaching" in the least.

 

I think the new young french team is more a threat in the long run, and it's the real competition. When even the keys are behind, name recognition is going to falter. Of course there will always be a market for "little pianos". That's the "base" in 2020. They are still improving the weighted piano actions here and there.

 

But there's nothing to stop a wake up. If Fatar has any sense, they are all over the drawing board to make a new synth action which can compete with the Osmose. Instead I think they are likely just trying to survive the pandemic.

 

What's new is a real desire to loose the laptop. Too vulnerable and way un-sexy. Linux and a motherboard, a la Kurzweil or Kronos....very backward. Imagine the power of a iphone X and an OS designed for music, installed over an osmose style set of keys, and enough programable buttons and sliders to make you never pine for a screen. 16 parts again. MIDI jackknife. Maybe ADD a analog board for some flavor when needed.

 

The ingredients for a great gumbo abound. But risk is high and vision is low.

[Music Bird]

I personally enjoy Chinese and Asian made products, so Behringer is a plus in my book.

 

There are some questionable actions Uli has done, but I don"t let that make it seem like he"s a horrible person, he actually seems like he"s very nice, he just uses a lot of older synth designs.

 

I personally am looking at the DeepMind, Model D, MS-1, and VC340, among their other stuff. I was always into cheaper gear, so Behringer fits in that role.

 

I hope they make a workstation that"s different from the Big 4 (Yarolorg (Yamaha/Roland/Korg)) and Casio, yes I consider Casio a big brand).

[Song80s]

In

 

With the Deep Mind 12 the Midas team has already proved that they are hungry and I won't be surprised if they are already working on flagship type synths, maybe even a workstation. Uli will use the money generated from the knock offs to fuel the R&D for instruments that raise the brand up.

 

e.

 

Thats the forward thinking I am hearing from other music friends- that Uli might make a run at the flag ship type synths.

 

I didn't want to go down the rat hole of ' ethics ' . Which is subjective stuff IMO

 

I might be mellowing out,, what I think does not change the reality of what certain manufacturers do in the marketplace.

[KuruPrionz]

The Behringer situation reminds me in some ways of the problems early Peavey gear had with reliablitly and how that reputation has lingered despite massive improvements in reliability and some innovative new products.

 

Behringer's reputation for "borrowing" innovation and making cheap stuff that honestly just wasn't very good will not be overcome easily.

 

The last Behringer product I owned was a small mixer. It was noisy and glitchy, not worth even the cheap price I paid for it. That was many years ago and I am pretty much done with them. There are other options.

[Joe Muscara]

Behringer is the Coors Light of keyboards.

[PianoMan51]

Re: Made In China... when I was a kid in the late 50s, early 60s, the term Made in Japan was synonymous with cheap crap.

 

Then in the 70s and 80s people began to realize that the Japanese firms were making far more reliable products than the Americans. Take an imaginary flight over the disaster of Detroit and tell me who won.

 

Behringer won"t enter the workstation market because unlike Roland, Yamaha, Kurzweil, they don"t have the 30 or 40 years of technology in their back pocket to create acoustic piano, electric piano, organ and symphonic sounds. Yet.

 

Let"s see where they go when they have mastered analog synthesis and driven major competitors out of the market.

[lsj]

I would hope everything is made in the U.S. my bose system L 1 Model 2 which really surprised me is made in China. my Yamaha Modx is made in China. I bought a mixer which came in a box from Korg, made in Vietnam. something has got to change. not the price of equipment that we have to pay but what these companies can charge if they are foreign made. these products from Behringer are so close to the big synth companies like Moog, Dave Smith, etc. sound wise, that it's foolish to even consider buying anything else.

[ElmerJFudd]

Of course Dave Smith sources his parts from China. It"s part of the business model. Behringer is expected to release a 'Pro-600' soon. There will be tons of AB videos up in no time. Same as what we saw with the D, Poly D.

[dglcomp]

I would say on the digital mixer from Behringer have done the impossible, from virtually no market share in digital mixers (even more so after they had to discontinue the DDX3216 due to the DSP chips becoming obsolete) to selling more digital mixers than anyone, helped in no doubt by not only putting out an excellent product but at a price no one could touch, as more and more people brought them, and as such lots of people had experience on them, probably with show files ready to go as well, so for a lot of people it would be stupid to buy anything else. At release the only competition was the Presonus StudioLive, but not only was that missing a lot of features the Behringer had (motor faders, digital audio networking Etc.) but was also known to be unreliable, you could buy a less featured and unreliable StudioLive or a more expensive Yamaha 01V96i or Soundcraft Si, naturally they didn't get a look in.

 

As for their synths, they have brought proper analogue synthesis in to the hands of people who previously couldn't afford a proper analogue synth (by that I am excluding things like the Monotron and Volcas, the more toy synths), it's also made other companies look at the pricing of their products, when you consider the Behringer Odyssey is cheaper than even the module version of the KARP yet is metal, has full-size keys and built in effects, very few people will be able to justify the price difference just so they can have the ARP logo on their Odyssey. Plus no company has come so far (even if most products are clones, although that is not exactly easy esp. if parts the original used are not available any more) in so little time, plus with the VC340 and upcoming solina they are the only company not only making analogue string machines but the first company to supply ones with factory MIDI!

 

But are they competition to the big three, I think very much so. When Roland releases little tiny DSP versions of their classics, some with reduced polyphony when the Behringer equivalent is nnot only fully analogue but around the same price what is for most people the most sensible purchase, plus Behringer even make/have made for them chips that the big boys use, the Waza craft delay pedal, yep Coolaudio BBD's inside. Plus with teh acquisition of the TC Group they have brought into the group brands that everyone uses, how many of the biggest tours use Lab.gruppen amplification, how many top guitarists use TC effects Etc.

 

As for shipping out to China, from what I understand Uli did it originally for lowering the price for the consumer over making extra profit for him, plus as the factory becomes more and more mechanized are they taking huge amounts of jobs away from the West? or is it better to do the low skilled and highly automated manufacturing where not only is it cheaper but where all the parts are made leaving the western workforce to concentrate on the higher skilled R+D? (noting they do have R+D facilities in the East too).

 

Noting also that if Behringer hadn't stepped in then Midas/KT would probably be no more and to that they are not afraid to buy technology/companies as needed.

[Song80s]

I would say on the digital mixer from Behringer have done the impossible, from virtually no market share in digital mixers (even more so after they had to discontinue the DDX3216 due to the DSP chips becoming obsolete) to selling more digital mixers than anyone, helped in no doubt by not only putting out an excellent product but at a price no one could touch, as more and more people brought them, and as such lots of people had experience on them, probably with show files ready to go as well, so for a lot of people it would be stupid to buy anything else. At release the only competition was the Presonus StudioLive, but not only was that missing a lot of features the Behringer had (motor faders, digital audio networking Etc.) but was also known to be unreliable, you could buy a less featured and unreliable StudioLive or a more expensive Yamaha 01V96i or Soundcraft Si, naturally they didn't get a look in.

 

As for their synths, they have brought proper analogue synthesis in to the hands of people who previously couldn't afford a proper analogue synth (by that I am excluding things like the Monotron and Volcas, the more toy synths), it's also made other companies look at the pricing of their products, when you consider the Behringer Odyssey is cheaper than even the module version of the KARP yet is metal, has full-size keys and built in effects, very few people will be able to justify the price difference just so they can have the ARP logo on their Odyssey. Plus no company has come so far (even if most products are clones, although that is not exactly easy esp. if parts the original used are not available any more) in so little time, plus with the VC340 and upcoming solina they are the only company not only making analogue string machines but the first company to supply ones with factory MIDI!

 

But are they competition to the big three, I think very much so. When Roland releases little tiny DSP versions of their classics, some with reduced polyphony when the Behringer equivalent is nnot only fully analogue but around the same price what is for most people the most sensible purchase, plus Behringer even make/have made for them chips that the big boys use, the Waza craft delay pedal, yep Coolaudio BBD's inside. Plus with teh acquisition of the TC Group they have brought into the group brands that everyone uses, how many of the biggest tours use Lab.gruppen amplification, how many top guitarists use TC effects Etc.

 

As for shipping out to China, from what I understand Uli did it originally for lowering the price for the consumer over making extra profit for him, plus as the factory becomes more and more mechanized are they taking huge amounts of jobs away from the West? or is it better to do the low skilled and highly automated manufacturing where not only is it cheaper but where all the parts are made leaving the western workforce to concentrate on the higher skilled R+D? (noting they do have R+D facilities in the East too).

 

Noting also that if Behringer hadn't stepped in then Midas/KT would probably be no more and to that they are not afraid to buy technology/companies as needed.

 

very good post, thank you.

 

I think Behringer has shown itself to be a viable alternative with certain products.

 

And they have the potential to be a further ' market disruptor'.

 

Personally, I want to see that - start to chip away at the high end of products by Roland, Korg, and Yamaha.

 

No one can really predict the future. We live in surprising and uncertain times.

[AnotherScott]

my Yamaha Modx is made in China.

That's part of how it gives you so much of a Montage for so little of its price. Montage is made in Japan.

[RABid]

I think of Behringer more of a competition to Pevey.

[ElmerJFudd]

Behringer is the Dr. Pepper to Dave Smith"s Mr. Pibb.

[Song80s]

Somehow opinions of Behringer have become the topic, some going back 20 years

 

who woulda thunk it on a keyboard music forum ?

 

Seems like that 'user experience ' and soft drink analogies would be another topic ?

 

[mate stubb]

Behringer is the Dr. Pepper to Dave Smith"s Mr. Pibb.

 

As a Dr. Pepper aficionado, I think I just got insulted. NOBODY but nobody willingly drinks Mr. Pibb.

[ElmerJFudd]

Behringer is the Dr. Pepper to Dave Smith"s Mr. Pibb.

 

As a Dr. Pepper aficionado, I think I just got insulted. NOBODY but nobody willingly drinks Mr. Pibb.

 

 

Quite right, quite right. I was hoping that would stir the pot!

 

Behringer is in fact the Mr. Pibb to Dave Smith"s Dr. Pepper.