Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

Have PA Speakers made Keyboard Amplifiers obsolete?


Recommended Posts

I recently bought the first keyboard I"ve ever liked. It"s a Motion Sound 610. It sounds very good, weight is reasonable, cost is good. I find it more convenient to just place a keyboard amp where I want it and play. I also have a pair of TT08A powered speakers. They sound wonderful, are light, but expensive. On gigs, placement is the issue. And, there"s a bit more involved with the schlep and setup/breakdown.

 

I posted a short comparison on YouTube for anyone who"s interested.

 

[video:youtube]

 

FWIW, the MS amp sounded warmer to me, I preferred the sound.

 

I had the KP 500s for a short time. A bit heavy and not what I needed at the time, but you make a good point about it being easy to setup and takes relatively little space.

 

It's interesting that you can still buy the KP 500s for the same price as the 610, $1,399! Yikes. To buy it again, I'd definitely want to shave down the weight from 48 pounds to 43, and I like the idea of 10" woofers instead of 12" and the bump of RMS power from 500 to 650.

 

So, given a choice in your home setup, would you rather play keys thru the MS or the TTs?

Numa Piano X73 /// Kawai ES920 /// Casio CT-X5000 /// Yamaha EW425

Yamaha Melodica and Alto Recorder

QSC K8.2 // JBL Eon One Compact // Soundcore Motion Boom Plus 

Win10 laptop i7 8GB // iPad Pro 9.7" 32GB

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Replies 101
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

I've only had one "keyboard amp" way back in the 80's, don't even remember the brand, not one that exists today. Never wanted another. My first GOOD amp was a Fender Bassman 135, with a 2x15" JBL Fender cab. Sounded great on both my RD Artist bass and my Prophet 600 at the time. Sadly, I did sell the amp/speaker cab. Only kept a 1x15" solid state MusicMan bass amp that was smaller, and didn't sound as good. When I returned to music in 2004, still had the RD Artist and the MusicMan.

Then I got a Kurzweil K2000VP, and picked up 2x15 Fender cab (not the JBL, the thin one) along with a British Trace Elliot amp, which was power FETs and sounded like a tube amp. Still have the head, but use now with a Trace 1x15 and 2x10+horn cabs; but it is way to heavy at my age to carry around. Does sound great on bass or synth bass.

For the general keyboard sound, I got my first Powered PA pair, couple of "DJ" low priced. Would have been OK for vocals, but had a pronounced peak about an octave and half below middle C, right where bass playing went. First quality PA was pair of JBL EON10G2 and pair of EON15G2, still in use (10's on wife's PC2X, and 15's as my monitors at church. Wanted something easier to carry, got a pair of EV SXA-100+, still in use in my shop/studio, and a pair of QSC K10, still in use for portable.

I do still have a single "keyboard amp", a Roland CM-30 Cube (6.5" speaker). Really nice for my micro-rig (iKeyx Pro 37, iPad mini, and the CM-30) for doing an "acoustic" set, not enough power for much else. It does sound good for the limited purposes that it is used on.

Also have a highly modded Fender US made Blues Jr - all tube, pair of 6BQ5 power, modded to have response like a tiny version of a Twin Reverb, used mostly with autoharp or Epiphone Les Paul guitar.

All those items that I still have were bought 8 to 10 years ago. They all still do what I need. Yeah, there are some new ones out there that might be better (defined as same sound with lighter weight to carry); but not enough to spend more money.

 

Hmmmmm.... given your forum name and your past gear, you seem likely to have some opinions on the value of tube driven amps, as well amps that were originally used for guitars. I know some of the Rhodes keyboards had Fender amps built into the case, and I've heard and experienced it myself that some speakers that are absolutely not that well suited for piano, do better than OK with EPs and Organ, possibly even better than clean, more multi-purpose amps.

 

Yeah, I remember the transition from passive speakers to powered! Viva la revolucion! As far as I'm concerned, I was really glad to leave passive speakers behind. Having a speaker optimized with all kinds of DSP by factory engineers is so much better than carrying heavy amps and rack gear to safely run passives.

 

Guitar players have also come over to PA speakers in droves. With such quality DSP available today, they can recreate the sound of a Marshall stack using lighter, smaller, more powerful speakers. They're called FRFR speakers, full range, flat response, basically a PA speaker as opposed to more mid-range centric special-purpose guitar amps.

Numa Piano X73 /// Kawai ES920 /// Casio CT-X5000 /// Yamaha EW425

Yamaha Melodica and Alto Recorder

QSC K8.2 // JBL Eon One Compact // Soundcore Motion Boom Plus 

Win10 laptop i7 8GB // iPad Pro 9.7" 32GB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as I'm concerned, they both are obsolete due to in-ears and easy-to-control monitor mixes .

 

That works for pop or rock 'organized / rehearsed band' contexts - although I know many people that prefer speakers and feel the in ears are a disconnect from live sound- but definitely not for Jazz. :)

 

Also on freelance/ pickup gigs where you might not have ever have met some of the other musicians and you just show up and play - read charts or call tunes- I've never heard of in ears being used in those contexts. Unless of course it was a high profile awards show type gig.

 

Fair enough, my world is small-time rock cover band and 95% of our gigs use our PA.

 

Certainly any time we aren't using our mixer I am very leery of in-ears. So yes in that kind of walk-in situation even in the rock cover band scene (let alone jazz) I'd have an "amp" and be self-contained.

 

I personally think the disconnected feel/sound is definitely a drawback of in-ears--but it is outweighed by all the benefits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After trying out (& returning the Motion Sound KP610), I found that if I simply place my 2 Yamaha DXR-10 PA speakers on the floor with a "V" angle between them (one facing slightly left, one facing slightly right), I can get the same stereo effect as the KP-610! And they take up no more space! So far, that has served me as a pretty good solution to the small stage space and stereo problem. YMMV.

 

So, you don't stack the DXRs on top of each other in a V, just on the floor in a V angle facing you. How close do you place them to each other? IIRC, the DXRs will accept a stereo input, and they're designed so that you can run a cable from it to a 2d DXR and get stereo. Nifty feature, esp. in your application.

 

Besides the cost, why else did you return the KP610s? I suppose you already had the DXRs.

Numa Piano X73 /// Kawai ES920 /// Casio CT-X5000 /// Yamaha EW425

Yamaha Melodica and Alto Recorder

QSC K8.2 // JBL Eon One Compact // Soundcore Motion Boom Plus 

Win10 laptop i7 8GB // iPad Pro 9.7" 32GB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am curious how many people use the SS V.3 and like it, with an extra speaker for bass or not.

 

I have limited experience with mine, but never got the full effect that many people swear by. I've mostly played it outdoors, which Aspen assured me would still work for the 3d effect, and at home in my living room, which has 8' ceilings, approx 12' x 16'. With a fireplace creating all kinds of weird audio effects, it's not an ideal space.

 

Was tremendously excited at the prospect, achieving 3d sound is always the goal, and I contributed to the feeding frenzy of the longest thread ever on this forum. But I don't find it to be very hi-fi, piano esp suffers, and I never really heard much of the 3d effect in my settings, even with trying many different ways of positioning the speaker.

 

I chalked it down to needing a larger space to realize the effect, and of course, using that amp outdoors is counter-intuitive. If I was a major Organ player I would give it another go. I'm selling it if anyone is interested. Am in the SF bay area at the moment, moving soon to SoCal.

 

 

For smaller settings like home I just LOVE my speakers on the Korg Pa1000. Some of the most powerful speakers on a keyboard, 2 ways with 66 watts, it gets pretty loud and deep for keyboard speakers. At the very least, I get perfect stereo sound right in my ears, and if more volume is needed I use my K8.2.

 

In many ways this is my ideal. In-your-face stereo with some bass added. I've often thought that there ought to be a 2.1 system for keyboards. One way of doing that would be to get several vocal monitors, like the

Vocal monitors

mount them on mic stands (they weigh under 7 pounds) on either side of your board, and then run another speaker for the bass. With 6.5" speakers these'll put out some sound, and of course your get good vocal amplification. However, that'd be a lot of setup (mixer, cables, 3 speakers). Mounted on mic stands the footprint would be negligible and the sound divine!

 

A guitar player friend of mine loaned me a wah pedal- what fun!!!! I run the pedal thru the K8.2, and the normal keyboard sound coming from the onboard speakers is unaltered. Seriously addicting!

Numa Piano X73 /// Kawai ES920 /// Casio CT-X5000 /// Yamaha EW425

Yamaha Melodica and Alto Recorder

QSC K8.2 // JBL Eon One Compact // Soundcore Motion Boom Plus 

Win10 laptop i7 8GB // iPad Pro 9.7" 32GB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently bought the first keyboard I"ve ever liked. It"s a Motion Sound 610. It sounds very good, weight is reasonable, cost is good. I find it more convenient to just place a keyboard amp where I want it and play. I also have a pair of TT08A powered speakers. They sound wonderful, are light, but expensive. On gigs, placement is the issue. And, there"s a bit more involved with the schlep and setup/breakdown.

 

I posted a short comparison on YouTube for anyone who"s interested.

Wow, thanks for the nice comparison, Al!

The 610 sounds really good to my ears. On repeated listens, I can hear that the TT08A is clearly superior reproduction wise, but the EQ may not be optimal (to my taste).

To be honest, at first I wasn't totally sure which was which until I saw your annotation at the bottom of the video.

No doubt the 610 would be great for gigging with a great solution to the AP amplification problem!

J a z z  P i a n o 8 8

--

Yamaha C7D

Montage8 | CP300 | CP4 | SK1-73 | OB6 | Seven

K8.2 | 3300 | CPSv.3

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To the OP's question , Absolutely.......

 

Keyboard amps were dead once powered PA speakers became affordable. Before that when they were passive and y9u needed a power amp - it made sense for a keyboard amp, but not now. PAs are more compact, more powerful, FRFR (at least relatively close) which keyboard amps definitely arnt. To top is off - if its for monitoring (as usually the keys will go to FOH) your hearing pretty close to what the audience is and can taylor EQ to match.

Roland RD2000, FA07 (soon to be Fantom7), Legend EXP, Peak, Virus Ti2 Desktop.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good full range powered speakers are better to me, but it all depends on what your feeding it and how much control of what your feeding it you need or want. Powered speakers for the most part are just that a convenient package of a power amp and speakers in one cab for large PA systems. Then companies started adding a simple mixer for use and small PA system. So what are you sending to the powered speaker and how much do you need to tweak it. This is one of those "it depends" questions as answer depends on what your doing and how much do you need to tweak the sound before and during the event.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Powered speakers were the best option until Motion Sound started making great amps, now it's all about your needs and chances are one of the MS amps will beat the PS setup every time.

 

PS are designed to throw the sound out for public address, not great at near field dispersion, so those standing right in front of a PS will get a full sound, those behind and to the sides won't hear much at all, this sucks for monitoring on stages without a great PA, the MS amps have big wide sound fields and some are even 360.

 

And PS don't take a keyboard out well, you'll get a slightly weak signal, which is why a mixer works so well, but who wants to setup all that crap? a single MS amp will sound hotter and hence better straight up compared to a PS without a mixer. You need two PS and a mixer to compete with the single MS box, and even then the MS will probably sound better.

 

The only need I would still use a PS for these days is self-monitoring on stage, with a direct out for the monitors and house, otherwise the MS amps win.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the new generation of small battery powered PA systems may become game changers in this area.

 

I was considering 2x RCF TT08 or MS KP408 until I read about Bose S1 Pro.

 

 

They include a mixer, easy to handle and install and promising sound (still need to hear them live on my CP4)

 

Any thoughts ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After trying out (& returning the Motion Sound KP610), I found that if I simply place my 2 Yamaha DXR-10 PA speakers on the floor with a "V" angle between them (one facing slightly left, one facing slightly right), I can get the same stereo effect as the KP-610! And they take up no more space! So far, that has served me as a pretty good solution to the small stage space and stereo problem. YMMV.

 

So, you don't stack the DXRs on top of each other in a V, just on the floor in a V angle facing you. How close do you place them to each other? IIRC, the DXRs will accept a stereo input, and they're designed so that you can run a cable from it to a 2d DXR and get stereo. Nifty feature, esp. in your application.

 

Besides the cost, why else did you return the KP610s? I suppose you already had the DXRs.

 

Right, Randolph, I already had the DXR10s. I do not stack them vertically simply because I would hear the top box (channel) much louder than the lower because the upper box would be closer to ear level. But I suppose I would stack them if ever I found myself with so little space that that was my only option. I was indeed very happy with the amp and sound of the Motion Sound KP610, for the record. But I simply preferred 2 relatively light-weight boxes (that I have bags for with wheels, so they are VERY easy to transport), rather than the weight and awkwardness of the one box. I separate them if I can, but, like the Motion Sound KP-610, I have found that if I put them even right next to each other, if I angle them 30-degrees, they yield pretty good stereo effect.

Ludwig van Beethoven:  “To play a wrong note is insignificant; to play without passion is inexcusable.”

My Rig: Yamaha MOXF8 (used mostly for acoustic piano voices); Motion Sound KP-612SX & SL-512.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a peculiar way that I like to orient my PA cabs.

 

Check it out:

 

YiG6dZQ.jpg

 

dB

 

Wow, interesting...what do you find the advantage is of this, besides maybe floor space? Those are the L2T's, right? Still liking the sound for keys this many years later? Probably too high-priced/rather heavy for my use, but I'm curious.

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, those are L2Ts. I do it that way because I like the height and width of the image that comes from behind my back, and the projection into the room I get from it.

 

I do the same thing with my QSCs, except I use a K8 on the stand and a K12 on the floor. It's pretty great.

 

dB

:snax:

 

:keys:==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <==:rawk:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've never played through a Motion Sound keyboard amp, but I've tried out several different Roland models and a few old Peavey models. I mostly play piano when doing solo gigs, and often accordion too. I haven't found any keyboard amp that sounded that good for either.

 

I've actually gigged with a single Yamaha MSR-100 for years. Mono, but I like the sound quality and it's small and not overbearingly heavy.

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, those are L2Ts. I do it that way because I like the height and width of the image that comes from behind my back, and the projection into the room I get from it.

 

I do the same thing with my QSCs, except I use a K8 on the stand and a K12 on the floor. It's pretty great.

 

dB

 

So it's not a straight stereo field then, interesting. Must sound really good for organs with leslie sim I would think.

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, those are L2Ts. I do it that way because I like the height and width of the image that comes from behind my back, and the projection into the room I get from it.

 

I do the same thing with my QSCs, except I use a K8 on the stand and a K12 on the floor. It's pretty great.

 

dB

 

Are you sending them a mono or stereo signal?

This post edited for speling.

My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great question.

 

Self-powered PAs certainly impacted the market for keyboard amps, but didn't eliminate them. And, as others have pointed out, a great pair of IEMs in the right situation can best even the most expensive self-powered PA units.

 

My "keyboard amp" experience includes a Roland JC-120 (great for rhodes), a MS KBR-3D (gathering much dust) and my trusty CPS SSv3. There are certain situations where the SSv3 is just freaking perfect, and can't be touched by a pair of PA speakers. Mine has a certain gritty, enveloping character that I like on occasion, e.g. small sweaty dance gigs. If I lost it, I'd immediately turn around and buy another.

 

Since these days I'm the sound guy for my band, we have the benefit of kicking FOH and as many as six monitor feeds on stage. I will swear by a pair of EVOX J8s and my X-Air 18. I take my mix through IEMs, others prefer a physical monitor.

 

But, yeah, as far as keyboard amplification goes, a decent self-powered PA brings game, even with added schlep. A pair of QSC K8.2s will open your eyes and ears. And IEMs bring game over self-powered PAs for monitoring purposes. Get the ambient type, much less isolating.

 

I guess direct brain implants are next in line ...

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

So, given a choice in your home setup, would you rather play keys thru the MS or the TTs?

 

At home, if I had to pick between just the MS or TT's I'd pick the TTs. But, at home what I actually do is play my keys through studio monitors (pair of JBL LSR4326P plus subwoofer). They're already setup and sound great. That is, unless I'm preparing for a gig. Then I'll setup the speakers I plan on using along with the keyboards I'll use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am curious how many people use the SS V.3 and like it, with an extra speaker for bass or not.

 

I have an SS V.3. I use it on jazz organ gigs along with a MarkBass bass amp for LH bass. Sounds good to me on organ gigs but I don't like AP through the SS V.3. The fidelity just isn't there. I also use the SS V.3 face down with a TT08A on top connected to the SS V.3 sub out (which is a full range signal). This combo has a small footprint and does everything well (e.g., high fidelity and omnipresent effect), but it's not good if a bandmate is in the line of fire of the side speakers. The sound messes them up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The band requested that I play Moog Taurus pedals in my rig. Because they pump out deep bass I initially brought the equivalent of a small biamped PA for my stage monitor to handle the pedals, but quickly decided they weren't necessary when I could feel the pedals radiate through the subwoofers in the PA. Fortunately our soundman appreciates keyboards.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 old QSC K8's. A pro sound guy said to me that he doesn't like QSC's for PA. But I think they're great as a keyboard amp for small venues. When there's FOH sound, I use the QSC's as my personal monitors and FOH takes direct either from the Nord in stereo or off one of the QSC's for mono. One sound guy has me place the QSC's in front of me and facing back at me. He doesn't want ANY of the sound from the QSC's in his FOH mix, not because he doesn't like them but because he wants ultimate control over the sound. If he's got the keys direct in his board, that's all the keys sound he wants to deal with. I've never used in ears and I never want to. I hate having things in my ears. If it came to that, I'd use over the ear cans before I'd put anything in my ears. I don't care what it looks like. I hate ear buds.
These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I started with a Peavey keyboard amp. It sounded horrible. I never missed it. For a while I didn't play out and just used studio monitors. Then I used IEMs. Now I have IEMs and PA (Fulcrum Acoustic). I wouldn't buy a keyboard amp.

 

Keyboard amps and PA speakers have the same basic design goal: full range, flat response. (Motion sound has some thing that are different, obviously). But for Full range/Flat response, there is an ocean of difference between the choices and engineering that goes into a modern PA speaker and a traditional "keyboard amp" (especially the ones with built-in DSP). The volumes sold also play into this. Also, a PA also gives two speakers. Every keyboard I've owned (except the Minimoog!) puts out a stereo signal and sounds better doing so.

 

My PA can be used for FOH or for me. I've used it both ways. I prefer my IEMs and PA as FOH, but options are good! "Keyboard Amp" just says, low quality speaker to me. Even for PA speakers, I have a list of what I want, and no keyboard amp meets the spec. I don't play Hammond, so rotary isn't part of what I use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...