Taking Apart a Casio PX-S3000 Action (video)

[Jazz+]

Summary starts at 15:00

 

[video:youtube]

[ElmerJFudd]

[video:youtube]

 

That"s the crux of it. The keys or too short, the fulcrum feels wrong and it"s dead at the fall board. Casio attempted a weight game which compensates ok when playing in a sweet spot just about at the tip of the black keys. It"s compact, it"s light, has a great price. In certain key signatures and in certain playing styles it"s ok. There are definitely better digital piano actions. But if action isn"t the priority - these models might be what one needs. For me, and ymmv, it was a fast pass.

[RandyFF]

Didn't watch the whole video but kudos to James for going in-depth on the dissasembly and analysis.

 

I agree with his conclusion that the action needs to be designed first and everything built around that. I have no doubt though that this slim design, quiet design, price point, weight and quality of the sounds got them one shit tonne of sales!

 

But this is why I'd prefer the P125 or the Px-560.

 

Elmer, the PX-560 feels the same all the way to the fall board? And how noisy are the keys with no sound?

[ElmerJFudd]

The 560 and other earlier PX models aren"t perfect but they are pretty darn good for the money. The action is noisier than these slim models. There is some left and right give in the key travel - more noticeable in carrying the board around than playing. The keys are longer the fulcrum point is better placed. The weighting and dynamic response are more similar to what you expect if you came up on acoustic pianos or other models like Yamaha P, Kawai ES-110, etc. And, yes, you can go back toward the fall board and get a trigger.

[Jazz+]

"Kawai puts the weights further back instead of directly under the keys, thus achieving a better leverage in the action."

[AnotherScott]

I agree with his conclusion that the action needs to be designed first and everything built around that. I have no doubt though that this slim design, quiet design, price point, weight and quality of the sounds got them one shit tonne of sales!

I actually disagreed with his opening treatise on form vs. function, as summed up in your first sentence... and exactly because of your second sentence! The first premise assumes that Casio's goal is to build the best possible feel for the price, but why should we assume that's the goal and therefore the "function" to which form must comply? In reality, Casio's goal is to build things that they think will prompt more people to choose their board rather than the competition. They decided (whether through intuition or market research) that creating the most compact board might give them a sales advantage. So in fact, rather than building the best possible feeling action for the price, the goal here instead seems to have been to create a hammer action DP with full size keys in the smallest and lightest device possible, and the form does indeed follow THAT function. The problem for James then, would not actually seem to be that form isn't following function, but rather that he does not agree with Casio as to what the function (purpose in toto) of the thing should be in the first place. When he says his ES8 (?) is still plenty small enough, that's certainly a reasonable opinion for someone to have personally, but Casio seems to believe that there are people who would find something significantly smaller to be more appealing, whether for aesthetic reasons, or ease of transport, whatever.

 

However, I did like his analysis at the end where he basically concluded that IF Casio was committed to making the piano that shallow (even if he disagrees with that as a goal), there was probably nothing they could have done to make it any better than it is, there was no obvious way to do it any better (i.e. any adjustment they might make to this particular mechanical design to improve it one way would be problematic in another).

 

It also bugged me a bit that he kept calling the metal devices under the keys "weights" when in fact they are "hammers." Yes, they do indeed impart a sensation of weight as well, but adding weight per se is not their function (compared to, say, the weight in a semi-weighted action, which is literally a weight attached to a key to make it feel more substantial).

 

And a quick note from the Kawai video he posted... someone needs to tell him not to use a sustain pedal when playing organ!

[Al Quinn]

What Scott said!

 

I bought the PX-S3000 for ease of transport. But it still needed to be enjoyable to play, and it is (even though it"s not the best action in this price range). I think Casio did a great job.

[Mighty Motif Max]

 

I agree with his conclusion that the action needs to be designed first and everything built around that. I have no doubt though that this slim design, quiet design, price point, weight and quality of the sounds got them one shit tonne of sales!

 

I agree with you. However, if one is trying to limit weight and price, then those end up being constraints. Ideally though, action and sound quality should be the top two in keyboard design.

[Biggles]

SALES, targeting Newbies and someone who wants a light easily transportable keyboard.

 

That is what the S1000 & 3000 is all about.

 

Nothing to do with features etc, it is to do with Sales.

 

There can be no doubt that both models take the top prizes for aesthetics.

 

Hence a Newbie walking into a Music Store will be attracted to its looks and shiny smartphone appearance.

 

Coupled with Casio"s custom stand it will look good in any room at home so plus points for Mum"s home decor

[16251]

SALES, targeting Newbies and someone who wants a light easily transportable keyboard.

 

That is what the S1000 & 3000 is all about.

 

Nothing to do with features etc, it is to do with Sales.

 

There can be no doubt that both models take the top prizes for aesthetics.

 

Hence a Newbie walking into a Music Store will be attracted to its looks and shiny smartphone appearance.

 

Coupled with Casio"s custom stand it will look good in any room at home so plus points for Mum"s home decor

 

I sold my pxs3000 on Craigslist in less than a week to the Newbie you describe. He was very much the iPhone demographic. I being past 60 was happy with the more traditional feel of the Kawai and most importantly, it was as light weight as Casio.

 

>Last minute thought: I would love to see Apple attempt a digital piano. (Not a fan of iPhone, but I love, iTouch and IPads that I own.)

[ElmerJFudd]

>Last minute thought: I would love to see Apple attempt a digital piano. (Not a fan of iPhone, but I love, iTouch and IPads that I own.)

 

They did, it's called the Nord Piano 4, costs $3k, weighs 40lbs and doesn't have a better piano action than a Yamaha CP4, CP88, or a Kawai ES8, MP7, 11 or VPC-1.

[tfort]

I just watched the video, and it"s 20 minutes I can"t get back. Ultimately, we all know that Casio chose to make compromises with the pivot length of action in order to make the keyboard depth as short as possible. That"s it. Serious piano and keyboard players want longer pivots, Casio made some design choices for its target market. I bought a PX-S3000 knowing the pivot length is short, and I can live with it because the overall value of the instrument is very, very good. Would I have appreciated it if they made all the keys two inches longer and had separate pivot points with the fulcrum of the black keys pushed back a bit, sure. How much would that add to the cost of building the instrument?

 

I had been holding out for the update that Mike Martin hinted at to the PX-5S. It will likely come with this same keybed, and Casio will keep its longer-pivot length actions for is Grand Hybrid line. Will they revisit that decision with their next model line revision? Depends on sales, which so far seem to be doing very well for the new models from what Mike is saying.

 

This guy"s videos are a bit of a tempest in a teapot in my opinion. I appreciate that the kid is trying hard and is independent, but he comes across as a bit of an arrogant, young, know-it-all, all the while making some very basic mistakes, like recording the sound mic"d through a horrible amp rather than direct, calling the hammers 'weights,' etc. The biggest issue I have with him is censoring the comments on his YouTube channel. He could learn a lot from people whose comments he censored and make his reviews better in the future. His independence and willingness to criticize a manufacturer is more than undermined by his own inability to take personal criticism.

 

I wonder if Mike Martin has a James Pavel Shawcross voodoo doll?

[Mighty Motif Max]

...

 

This guy"s videos are a bit of a tempest in a teapot in my opinion. I appreciate that the kid is trying hard and is independent, but he comes across as a bit of an arrogant, young, know-it-all, all the while making some very basic mistakes, like recording the sound mic"d through a horrible amp rather than direct, calling the hammers 'weights,' etc. The biggest issue I have with him is censoring the comments on his YouTube channel. He could learn a lot from people whose comments he censored and make his reviews better in the future. His independence and willingness to criticize a manufacturer is more than undermined by his own inability to take personal criticism.

 

I wonder if Mike Martin has a James Pavel Shawcross voodoo doll?

 

I think part of why he keeps trying to make his point is that Casio has insisted that there is nothing wrong or not-perfect in the design, in livestreams referencing his videos. I don't like the censoring either, and he seems to think that there were a lot of paid comments that were copy-and-pasted on some of his previous videos. He also doesn't want retailers commenting. I don't like his way of doing it, but that's his problem, not mine. I think it's unnecessary. He's taking some things as personal attacks that really aren't. On the other hand, Casio needs to cool it with the insistence that this guy's basically nuts. He's comparing it to an acoustic piano action, and Casio likes to brag that this keyboard has their best action yet in a portable design, it's very close to a piano, etc. Neither side is willing to take criticism, so I don't know where this is going to go.

 

It's also unnecessary to make the voodoo doll comment, IMO.

[ElmerJFudd]

It"s important for digital piano shoppers to know there are compromises to be made at these price points, this slim a case and light weight build. If Casio does promote the PX-S models as having their 'best action yet in a portable design' that"s a bit disingenuous as the slim design is a selling point and the designers know exactly what cutting down the key length does. There"s improvements here that we hope come across to their $1k+ models, but shorter keys isn"t on that list.

[Mighty Motif Max]

It"s important for digital piano shoppers to know there are compromises to be made at these price points, this slim a case and light weight build. If Casio does promote the PX-S models as having their 'best action yet in a portable design' that"s a bit disingenuous as the slim design is a selling point and the designers know exactly what cutting down the key length does. There"s improvements here that we hope come across to their $1k+ models, but shorter keys isn"t on that list.

 

That's a paraphrase, just so you know. It *has* been marketed as an improvement over previous portable actions, and then, as mentioned, Casio's livestream basically denied any compromises. I'd just like honest advertising from everyone, but I can't imagine that's ever going to happen.

[ElmerJFudd]

It"s important for digital piano shoppers to know there are compromises to be made at these price points, this slim a case and light weight build. If Casio does promote the PX-S models as having their 'best action yet in a portable design' that"s a bit disingenuous as the slim design is a selling point and the designers know exactly what cutting down the key length does. There"s improvements here that we hope come across to their $1k+ models, but shorter keys isn"t on that list.

 

That's a paraphrase, just so you know. It *has* been marketed as an improvement over previous portable actions, and then, as mentioned, Casio's livestream basically denied any compromises. I'd just like honest advertising from everyone, but I can't imagine that's ever going to happen.

 

Right. Marketing.

 

"Smart Scaled Hammer Action Keyboard with simulated ebony/ivory key textures"

 

"There's never been a keyboard this slim that feels this good. The superior touch of the PX-S1000 is thanks to the newly designed fully weighted Smart Scaled Hammer Action Keyboard which delivers an authentic and uncompromising piano touch with an incredibly compact design. Casio"s proprietary key scaling system reproduces the individual characteristics of each of the 88 keys, while ebony and ivory key textures ensure confident playing in any climate."

[Biggles]

It"s important for digital piano shoppers to know there are compromises to be made at these price points, this slim a case and light weight build. If Casio does promote the PX-S models as having their 'best action yet in a portable design' that"s a bit disingenuous as the slim design is a selling point and the designers know exactly what cutting down the key length does. There"s improvements here that we hope come across to their $1k+ models, but shorter keys isn"t on that list.

 

That's a paraphrase, just so you know. It *has* been marketed as an improvement over previous portable actions, and then, as mentioned, Casio's livestream basically denied any compromises. I'd just like honest advertising from everyone, but I can't imagine that's ever going to happen.

 

Right. Marketing.

 

"Smart Scaled Hammer Action Keyboard with simulated ebony/ivory key textures"

 

"There's never been a keyboard this slim that feels this good. The superior touch of the PX-S1000 is thanks to the newly designed fully weighted Smart Scaled Hammer Action Keyboard which delivers an authentic and uncompromising piano touch with an incredibly compact design. Casio"s proprietary key scaling system reproduces the individual characteristics of each of the 88 keys, while ebony and ivory key textures ensure confident playing in any climate."

 

I am sold on the S1000

 

I want one!

 

It is all I need in a keyboard.

 

Hold on!!!!!!

 

I have a Yamaha P121

 

Damn, have I bought the wrong keyboard?

 

No.

[Jazz+]

The Casio does have a very good dynamic response scale. It's just the key weighting combined with a short pivot range that I gets to me after a few minutes of rigorous soloing. If I didn't' need to burn then I could live with it.

[Jazz+]

In an ideal world, I like a very light action set up on a Steinway D or a Yamaha CFX. Same on guitar - the lowest action possible, lightest gauge strings. As B.B. King said, "Why work so hard?" He used the lightest strings possible. On piano, I favor the lowest friction and lowest weight resistance as possible. I love the keys to "fly away" without a lot of effort. Thus I avoid repetitive stress injury and both physical and mental fatigue. I am like a marathon player and I play a lot of tempo bebop stuff where I solo extensively. I can't be pressing heavier keys all day.

Personally, the FP30 feels like driving a Mac Truck to me when I solo. I like to burn and "substantial" of "heavier" sounds like an impediment on any piano to me.