I think online synth reviews are getting worse.

[miden]

Yep I agree with Eric - there should be some way for members to contribute. It's NOT charity at all in my view, we pay annual subs to run various bits of software or use streaming services, and MPN is a service, one that I GREATLY appreciate, haha even if I rankle a few feathers at times

Don't we all...

 

MPN does already have a Paypal account, of course. The MPN Shop would be difficult to run without one.

 

Are you guys suggesting I just post some kind of link to it somewhere and let people send as much $ as they feel like whenever they feel like it? I know I'm an old guy, but that seems a bit odd.

 

I built a Patreon page at one point as well, but never got around to doing anything with it...and they take all sorts of chunks of it.

 

As Craig said - we always figured people would prefer to buy something at the Shop.

 

dB

 

Yes exactly, well that's what I was getting at anyway.

[jazzpiano88]

I would go with the Lex Fridman model where he spends 1-2 hours with the main contributors and influencers to the field (in his case AI).

That sounds like the podcast Dave Holloway is doing.

dB

I'll Czech it out. Can you provide a link? Can't find him on a google or youtube search

[Doerfler]

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/60/1/new-the-podcasting-channel

[RABid]

Charity? This is my take. When someone invites me to their house for dinner, I frequently offer to bring dessert. Not because I have to or feel obligated. Just a way to show that I appreciate the invite.

 

Livestream/Podcast/Video Podcast: I never, ever make it through a 2 hour podcast or live stream. It is just too long. Whether it is Sonic State or one of my favorite Lego channels. This is where they loose me. When you think you have to stretch things out to fill time, or acknowledge everyone you see in chat, it really pulls down the quality of the material. Now, a 30 minute news session about new instrument releases, acquisitions, events, etc... That would hold my attention. And it would not have to be done by the same person every time. Make it video, and throw the audio only version up as a podcast. Cover both worlds that way. The biggest thing you need is a good mic, and honestly, is there anyone here that does not have that? There is a huge number of YouTube blogs being filmed with iPhone or an $800 Cannon. Does anyone watch The Pioneer Woman on Food Network? Right now the kids are filming it on iPhones and Go Pros. With a news blog, if you can avoid saying "ummm" or "uh" every few seconds then editing is pretty simple.

[Vanyo]

 

Maybe Music Player Network should show them how it is done. Put up some real reviews. Set the standard.

 

Every review I read these days it seems the reviewer is a '5-star it's perfect' shill.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

As a self employed person who has started multiple businesses (all involving some form of electronics, but different aspects), I would say that a number of responses in the thread have been very good ideas. First thing needed is to realize that your are NOT selling nothing, intellectual property is recognized as a product, even if virtual. I always wound up trying a number of different things more or less at the same time. Some worked, others not so much. Focus more on the ones that work, and gradually drop the not so much.

 

I have paid for years for supporter level on the Mastering VAST forum. $6 a year is a petty trifle for the amount of benefit the forum has been over the years, both in support help and for that matter actual patches. (disclaimer: as a moderator there, my $6 is rebated, so I'm moderating for $6 a year). That money has gone both for supporting the operational costs and for improvements. Anyone who joins the VAST forums has access to most of the site at no charge. The $6 also gives access to the downloaded material, which includes not only sound patches but also some pretty good tutorials most of which are done by the primary forum administrator.

 

Never seen anyone complaining about the charge for access over all the years.

 

Maybe tie in with the new MPN Show so that anyone making a significant contribution has such and such a product given to them? Maybe keep the overall forum access free but set up a separate section that is monetized? And keep on with the idea of getting $$ from manufacturers for in depth trustable reviews - that one can work. I've seen so many times on Amazon that a number of products from one vendor all have the exact same product reviews from the same people - that kind of dilutes my trust for the reviews. I haven't personally tried Amazon affiliate (my business is largely service based), but that sounds like it could work.

 

I fully understand how great it is to do something to pay the bills that one just enjoys enough that they would do it anyhow if they were independently wealthy. Been there, done that for close to 50 years, with a few rather brief excursions back into employment by others, always went back to being my own boss.

 

Scripture says to not despise the day of small things. I interpret that to mean that great things start out very small, and if one doesn't appreciate the itty-bitty results at the beginning, they get discouraged and never do make it to the great things. Bill Gates was not always a multi-billioniare, he started out small.

[Theo Verelst]

It's been a very long time since anywhere I've seen actual critique being uttered about any keyboard instrument or piece of software. Maybe it's because the general "new" music ideas are lowly and (IMO unattractive to people not dragging their knuckles on the ground. Of course intellectual discourse shouldn't take place at the level of nerds and technically challenged people, and if you like the atmosphere of a fan club instead of a more academic air, I suppose that's fine. Mainly the technology didn't do all too many exciting things, and everybody seems to be ok with that, and with the lack of pro sound being made that I would call worthy of the terminology. I seldom hear something I really dig, which is my problem, but a more discerning and non-nerdy technological/scientific foundation for the more challenging instruments would sure be refreshing!

 

T

[Dave Bryce]

In addition, brother davedoerfler has graciously agreed to become a moderator for that forum. We'll probably add at least one more...

.,..and brother miden will be joining him.

...and brother Pim will be joining them as well.

 

What an excellent mod team. The GearLab should really rock now....

 

Thank you, guys!

 

dB

[Doerfler]

most excellent news. A moderator on 3 different continents.

[RABid]

 

Maybe Music Player Network should show them how it is done. Put up some real reviews. Set the standard.

 

Every review I read these days it seems the reviewer is a '5-star it's perfect' shill.

 

I recently ordered a Positive Grid Spark practice guitar amp. I almost backed out. Why? Because I could not find a single negative review on YouTube, or even neutral? Positive Grid must have sent every guartist content provider on YouTube a free amp to review, and they all had nothing but positive things to say. I wanted to know the limits. The truth about how the 5 inch speakers sound. To see a negative comment about it not having a foot pedal for switching sounds. But nothing. For me it ended up being a big turnoff that almost caused me to not order the amp. I know that a $250 practice amp is not studio quality, but you would not know it from the YouTube guitarists that reviewed the amp.

[Dave Bryce]

There is no doubt that the great beauty of our situation is that we are beholden to no corporate interests, so we are free to say whatever we honestly feel in any MPN Gearlab thread.

 

Moreover, representatives from any manufacturer that feels we're saying something incorrect and/or that they believe we don't understand are not only welcome to post and share their point of view with us, they're encouraged to do so.

 

dB

[Groove On]

... recently ordered a Positive Grid Spark practice guitar amp. I almost backed out. Why? Because I could not find a single negative review on YouTube, or even neutral? ... I know that a $250 practice amp is not studio quality, but you would not know it from the YouTube guitarists that reviewed the amp.

The irony is, now you can do your own review on the MPN Gear Lab Forum. And I swear if you give it a 5-star review, I'm gonna say your a shill for the company.

[jazzpiano88]

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/60/1/new-the-podcasting-channel

Thanks. The content looks great. The only negative thing I have to say is that it is so well hidden, I doubt even Sven could find it.

Not sure why this is. Also (to my original comment re: Lex) I think video interaction is superior over the audio only format and would be a plus.

[nursers]

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/60/1/new-the-podcasting-channel

Thanks. The content looks great. The only negative thing I have to say is that it is so well hidden, I doubt even Sven could find it.

Not sure why this is. Also (to my original comment re: Lex) I think video interaction is superior over the audio only format and would be a plus.

 

Just to clarify - you're right that the podcast isn't front and centre, although there's usually a link in the Shameless Plugs sub-forum here.

 

I don't tend to directly promote episodes here because it's not an official musicplayer podcast, just one that I do that very happily promotes the forums at every opportunity. Also, I'd feel like I was spamming if I linked to every episode here. That said I'm happy to be told otherwise

 

Also - the podcasting forum here is designed to hopefully to encourage others to learn about podcasting and rightly it's not as high up the list of forums as the more directly music related ones

[jazzpiano88]

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/60/1/new-the-podcasting-channel

Thanks. The content looks great. The only negative thing I have to say is that it is so well hidden, I doubt even Sven could find it.

Not sure why this is. Also (to my original comment re: Lex) I think video interaction is superior over the audio only format and would be a plus.

 

Just to clarify - you're right that the podcast isn't front and centre, although there's usually a link in the Shameless Plugs sub-forum here.

 

I don't tend to directly promote episodes here because it's not an official musicplayer podcast, just one that I do that very happily promotes the forums at every opportunity. Also, I'd feel like I was spamming if I linked to every episode here. That said I'm happy to be told otherwise

 

Also - the podcasting forum here is designed to hopefully to encourage others to learn about podcasting and rightly it's not as high up the list of forums as the more directly music related ones

Thanks for the clarification, Dave.

I think it would be great to see your content get wider exposure to musicians beyond the MP community. Have you thought about uploading to a bigger platform (e.g. Apple Music Podcasts)?

[MAJUSCULE]

It's available on all major platforms, I believe. I generally stream it on Spotify. How to listen page

[Anderton]

Moreover, representatives from any manufacturer that feels we're saying something incorrect and/or that they believe we don't understand are not only welcome to post and share their point of view with us, they're encouraged to do so.

 

dB

 

When I did the Pro Reviews (on which GearLab is based) at Harmony Central, we regularly got a quarter million views per review, and sometimes half a million. What I noticed was threads where manufacturers participate did (literally) 10 times better than threads where they didn't. It was a rare opportunity to ask direct questions, and get direct answers, from the people who made the gear.

 

One of my favorite moments was when Dave Hill from Ableton did troubleshooting on a guy's PC because he was having problems getting Live to work, and the PC ended up working much better than it ever had before

[Anderton]

I also want to mention something about "positive" reviews. Personally, if I'm going to spend days/weeks investigating every nook and cranny of a piece of gear, it's going to be one that I've previewed and which already looks cool. I don't choose what I review at random; I choose stuff that I (hope) will be a great experience to check out.

 

Of course, that's a double-edged sword - if I have high expectations and it turns out to be a letdown, the review might be less wonderful than if I didn't have those expectations. Conversely, if something ends up being WAY cooler than expected, that's in the review as well.

 

But again, my philosophy of reviews is to explain something so clearly that the people reading it (or viewing) it can decide whether it would work for them. No one should care about my opinion, they should care about whether I have the ability to describe something accurately and completely, so you can form your own opinion. My favorite reviews are ones where some people think I've written a negative review, and others think I've written a positive one. That means I've described the product with sufficient detail that people can decide whether it will float their boat or not.

[nursers]

It's available on all major platforms, I believe. I generally stream it on Spotify. How to listen page

 

 

Yep what Eric said About 80% of listeners come from outside the forums, with the US, Canada, UK, France and Australia / NZ the main localities of listeners. Hence why I love trying to send some of them here

[Theo Verelst]

The big data management filling your YT and other feeding troughs like an internet advisory magician is under control of certain programmers. That's at least as important as a morality among customers of musical products favoring dumb mass influencing with no personal integrity and a complete denial of the historic values underlying the musical society which brought the success they try to imitate.

 

T.V.

[Doerfler]

[Markyboard]

The big data management filling your YT and other feeding troughs like an internet advisory magician is under control of certain programmers.

T.V.

 

And now Dave Doerfler is in control .

[nursers]

The big data management filling your YT and other feeding troughs like an internet advisory magician is under control of certain programmers.

T.V.

 

And now Dave Doerfler is in control .

 

Is he the feeding trough or the programmer?

[Doerfler]

The big data management filling your YT and other feeding troughs like an internet advisory magician is under control of certain programmers.

T.V.

 

And now Dave Doerfler is in control .

 

Is he the feeding trough or the programmer?

 

definately not the programmer

[Theo Verelst]

As a hall of fame member I suppose some manufacturers should be send me their boards to review any day soon now!

 

I'll gladly polish every parameter, comment on all possible generalities I think I can handle, try to get into the spirit of the instrument, make a nice story about the history of the maker, shoot some pro grade pictures and call myself a reviewer, yeah!

 

(in case of a digital instrument I'd probably still tale my standard tale and even a nice analog instrument I'm sure doesn't usually tune up to my sound preferences the way I'd hope, so maybe better not...)

 

T

[Doerfler]

As a hall of fame member I suppose some manufacturers should be send me their boards to review any day soon now!

 

I'll see what I can do for you, wouldn't keep my hopes up, however.

[Dr Mike Metlay]

Thanks for the supportive and thoughtful comments from all of you. Some thoughts, a few days late and a few dollars short:

 

Cross-pollination between forums is not something that can be forced to happen non-organically. I have tried once or twice, and it has rarely gone well. For the process to be organic, there has to be a natural progression where people say, "I have a question about thus-and-such, I guess the best place to ask that would be Anderton / Studio Workshop / Collaboration / etc." Instead, we are trying to jostle a habit of many years: "I have a question about thus-and-such, I'll put it on KC and see who can help."

 

The reason MPN is even alive is because the community on KC is mutually supportive, friendly, and familiar with one another. It's collegial, informative, and non-judgmental as a result. For someone with a few dozen posts to come in now and suggest that people in the 10K Club move certain topics over to HIS forum, and expect everyone to just DO that, requires a level of optimism bordering on psychosis. All we can do is maintain our forums and threads and hope (against hope?) that one by one and two by three, KC folks will realize that the topics covered elsewhere might give them a chance for new perspectives and more deep and involved discussions than on KC, where threads usually pop up, populate, run out, and get moved on from, in fairly short order.

 

What else can I do but say, "Hey, you can talk with like-minded folks about computers and interfaces and mics and studio gear and furniture and wiring and sound treatment and so forth over on my forum if you like"... and hope that some folks do? I am very grateful for the folks who have done so -- you all know who you are and so do I, but extra-special thanks to Kuru and Sam, who have bent over backwards to contribute to a wide variety of threads there and without whom DMSW would be a much lonelier place.

 

Next post requires some quotations, so brb....

[Dr Mike Metlay]

On second thought, no, I'll wing it rather than try to assemble quotes from multiple people:

 

At the risk of cheesing people off, I am once again going to be very blunt here. Writing gear reviews is a very delicate tap dance. It always has been and it is getting more so every day.

 

Back in the days of print magazines with print advertisers who had no other way to promote their gear and print readers who had no other way to learn about it, long and detailed reviews where problems were pointed out were what was expected. Manufacturers hated it when we called their babies ugly, but they knew that they had to at least try -- and the worst they could do was to not advertise as "punishment", knowing full well that they'd have to be back in the book in two years tops. Readers expected reviews to have negatives... maybe not a lot of them, but some... and relied on them for balanced information.

 

(One of the reader survey questions we asked in the 1990s was: "As a result of reading a review in RECORDING, I have (a) purchased the item (b) gone to a retailer to try the item © contacted the manufacturer directly for more information (d) filled out a mail-in card for more information (e) pulled my advertising"... and at least one rep checked (e) and mailed the survey back to us.)

 

When I started working at the magazine, that was the model. The Internet still belonged to scientists, BBSes, and paid services like AOL. We wrote long magazines, full of long reviews, packed full of expensive ads, and when a manufacturer spanked us, we shrugged it off, because we could.

 

And then came the Internet, and social media, and YouTube, and "gear review sites" (a few of which are not horrible but most of which are wretched), and EVERYTHING changed, and not for the better. Craig outlined it all: faster turnaround demand, shorter reviews, less time to research, readers becoming suspicious and then cynical, manufacturers grumbling about the price of print ads when they could spend a tenth of the money for clicks clicks clicks, shrinking page counts, even SHORTER reviews, and on and on down the spiral.

 

This is what I meant when I mentioned the "laughable idea that good reviews lead to more gear opportunities." To a manufacturer, a good review is one that shows a product entirely in a favorable light, with MAYBE a token complaint or two. To a serious user, a good review is one that shows a product in all its good and bad, letting them make an informed decision. To the average dimbulb watching YouTube, a good review is one with humorous sound effects, jokes intercut with the presentation, and if possible, a serious slam on the piece being reviewed to encourage lots of misspelled comments and fights... guess which ones are successful, because clicks clicks clicks?

 

I guarantee you that if I were to truly slam a product in an online review today, I would find the well much more dry tomorrow. There is no longer a neutral forum where I can defend my results; I am labeled a grumpy old man who likes starting fights. If I were to totally love a product in an online review today, I would be dismissed as a shill (a very polite word for starfucker). To quote Lex Luthor: people are no damn good.

 

Toward the end of my tenure at the magazine, the stock answer (and thank God it was the true answer) to people asking why we "never ran bad reviews" was that it was twofold:

 

1. Gear is uniformly better today than it was years ago, at all price points, and anyone who says otherwise is taking a very, VERY narrow view

2. I don't ask for stuff that's going to be a bad bet because I can't waste time and reviewer word rate and page space on it.

 

The ONE time in the last ten years that we got a product that was truly awful AND the manufacturer insisted that we review it "and not pull any punches" because it was the start of a new product line that HAD to be promoted heavily, I was in Heaven... not because I enjoyed destroying the piece in print, but because at long last I had a truly negative review that I could print and point to with a clear conscience. This was in stark contrast to 1997, when my review of one really excellent product had a couple of pretty significant negatives, and the result of my review and a few others that were similar was that the product was blown out at GC for 20% of its original asking price less than six months later. (Always regretted that.)

 

The landscape is changing, and the search for clicks clicks clicks is making matters worse and worse. Gearlab gives me a chance to do reviews MY way and say what I have to say, and produce the best possible result for all concerned. It's not easy and it's not profitable, but it's the right thing to do. I was thrilled to get an email from ASM today, indicating that not only were my videos being seen, but someone at the company was reading and following the thread, even if they weren't commenting. A win, if not a complete win... but we'll get there.

[Doerfler]

On second thought, no, I'll wing it rather than try to assemble quotes from multiple people:

 

I was trying to come up with an appropriate response but decided on this :

 

[Theo Verelst]

Starting a science discourse might not be the lineage unless, I don't know, you want to write a NSF funding proposal or something. The youtube persons I've looked at appear to be relatively free to put on the thing they want, though there appears to be a serious person control in through the above mentioned feed software. AI is potent enough to recognize a banana in a picture in a short compute time but logical reasoning, understanding honor games, counting, poetic integrity, etc are almost impossible.

 

Some of the big YT makers I've seen making less than $10k for a million views from YT come across as sales people of there own video product, and the adds probably are important. The patronage in some form of pitiful subject belittling some seem to want to believe in seems hardly commercially valid to me.

 

T