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Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Groove On #3042815 05/09/20 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Groove On
What about speaker or headphone "burn-in"? Is that a myth or not?
Based on my experience, I would say it is not a myth.

However, I've worked with several brands of speakers over the years, and what I've found is that there are some that need it more then others. As far as I can tell, the materials/technology used to make the driver is a key component in this equation. When I worked with ADAM, I did not find that breaking them in made a big difference...but with Amphion, you absolutely had to play music through those for about 50 hours before they loosened up - I had to break in a bunch of them.

dB

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Dave Bryce #3042846 05/09/20 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Bryce
Originally Posted by Groove On
What about speaker or headphone "burn-in"? Is that a myth or not?
Based on my experience, I would say it is not a myth.

However, I've worked with several brands of speakers over the years, and what I've found is that there are some that need it more then others.

That may also have something to do with whether speakers were burned in at the factory. I think KRK may have done that for at least some of their products, not sure if they still do. The engineers there say that burning in does in fact make a difference, because it reduces stiffness in the cone, so it can respond better to high frequencies.

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Anderton #3042849 05/09/20 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
That may also have something to do with whether speakers were burned in at the factory. I think KRK may have done that for at least some of their products, not sure if they still do. The engineers there say that burning in does in fact make a difference, because it reduces stiffness in the cone, so it can respond better to high frequencies.
No question. Alesis definitely did that with the Monitor Ones and Twos when I worked there. I tried to convince Amphion they should do that...but they didn't feel it was the manufacturer's responsibility.

ADAM certainly never did back when I was working for them, but as I mentioned earlier, their speakers didn't seem to need it. Seems conceivable that the use of the (extremely fast) folded ribbon diaphragm tweeter may have helped with that... idk

dB

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Dave Bryce #3042857 05/09/20 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Bryce
ADAM certainly never did back when I was working for them, but as I mentioned earlier, their speakers didn't seem to need it. Seems conceivable that the use of the (extremely fast) folded ribbon diaphragm tweeter may have helped with that... idk

That makes sense, stiffness would be more of a problem with high frequencies.

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Anderton #3042859 05/09/20 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by Dave Bryce
ADAM certainly never did back when I was working for them, but as I mentioned earlier, their speakers didn't seem to need it. Seems conceivable that the use of the (extremely fast) folded ribbon diaphragm tweeter may have helped with that... idk

That makes sense, stiffness would be more of a problem with high frequencies.

With different applications I would agree with you. For guitar, many speakers arrive with stiff suspensions and spiders. I've had a couple of Celestions that sounded different and "better" to me after they had some hours on them and it did smooth out the lower frequencies as the components were flexed and became more pliaible. Cheers, Kuru


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Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Anderton #3042895 05/09/20 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
That may also have something to do with whether speakers were burned in at the factory.

Bozak had a room outside the plant in Connecticut where they'd break in (and QC test) their woofers by powering them up for a week or so with 60 Hz from the AC line, stepped down to the appropriate power level for the speaker.

Fun fact: In the 1940s, before establishing his speaker company, worked for G. C. Conn and helped develop the electric organ. He then went on to Wurlitzer to work on speakers for their organs.

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Markyboard #3042900 05/09/20 10:33 PM
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Bozak- there’s a name I haven’t heard or thought of in many years. My dad had Bozak speakers in his hi-fi console; that lengthy piece of living room furniture in which the speakers were fixed at the opposite end positions. Only reason I know they were Bozak is I remember the metal tag/emblem at the bottom of each cabinet grill cloth. It’s funny how 50+ years later I can still feel my tiny fingers around that pre-amp tuner knob.

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Mike Rivers #3042906 05/09/20 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rivers
Bozak had a room outside the plant in Connecticut where they'd break in (and QC test) their woofers by powering them up for a week or so with 60 Hz from the AC line, stepped down to the appropriate power level for the speaker.
Yup, I've been told a low frequency sine wave at low volume works well,too. I tend to prefer letting iTunes play my library at low volume for a day or two.

dB

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Markyboard #3042911 05/09/20 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Markyboard
Bozak- there’s a name I haven’t heard or thought of in many years. My dad had Bozak speakers in his hi-fi console

The Bozak E-4000s that I assembled from kits in the late 1960s are still my living room speakers. The cabinets were pre-cut for four pairs of tweeters, one midrange speaker, and two woofers. I started out with "stage two" one pair of tweeters, the midrange, and one woofer. I made the crossovers myself using the inductor and capacitor values from the Bozak manual, winding the inductors using a formula that related the number of turns of a chosen gauge of magnet wire.

A few years ago one of the midrange speakers died. Other than the rubbing of the voice coil it sounded about the same without the midrange speaker, so I opened up the cabinet to disconnect it, removed the inductors, and replaced the capacitor in series with the tweeters with a new one of the proper value, closed it up and listened to it. I liked it better than the one with the working midrange, so I disconnected that one and re-wired it, too. I'd like to replace them with something more modern, but then I'd have to find someplace to put all the stuff that's on top of them. wink

Hey, if you're actually in Springfield, come visit them some time when they determine that it's safe to go out. I'm in Falls Church. In fact (way off topic now) there are a few of us here from the DC area. We should get together some day.

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Mike Rivers #3042914 05/10/20 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rivers
Hey, if you're actually in Springfield, come visit them some time when they determine that it's safe to go out. I'm in Falls Church. In fact (way off topic now) there are a few of us here from the DC area. We should get together some day.

Would love to do that Mike. And likewise I will keep you in mind when “a few more of us” locals get together next time. Btw never realized Falls Gulch is related to Falls Church

I’ll ask my dad if he remembers anything about those Bozaks he had. At 94 he may be thinking clown rather than speakers. grin

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Groove On #3042921 05/10/20 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Groove On
What about speaker or headphone "burn-in"? Is that a myth or not?

I would ask result are you expecting? Almost all speakers are mechanical devices and they will undergo at least some small change every time you play them whether at “break in” or just during continued use over time.

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Markyboard #3042922 05/10/20 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Markyboard
OK try this one: Keyboard dust covers to protect sensitive electronic components from damage. I know, here comes the thermal/heat build up argument blah blah blah . Again I'm thinking studio. If you have to leave your stuff set up in a bar, oasys or sawmill then maybe? I'm sorry, these things are stupid, more of a hassle to get going each day and they are a frigg'n WASTE OF MONEY!

OK, here's a situation: my studio is in my attached garage in my house here on Maui, HI. The garage by design (flood zone) is not completely sealed, so I get Geckos in here. All the time. So dust covers are a must unless I want their dropping all over my gear. Just a fact of life here in the tropics.

Jerry

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
jerrythek #3042933 05/10/20 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jerrythek
OK, here's a situation: my studio is in my attached garage in my house here on Maui, HI. The garage by design (flood zone) is not completely sealed, so I get Geckos in here. All the time. So dust covers are a must unless I want their dropping all over my gear. Just a fact of life here in the tropics.

Jerry

Yeah right, nice try Jerry rolleyes. This would be about the time they start planning next year’s Super Bowl commercials.

[Linked Image from s3-prod.adage.com]
roll

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Markyboard #3043241 05/12/20 01:03 AM
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Here's another one: a 1959 Les Paul is going to be much better than a 2019 one.

To which the correct answer is - well, maybe, if you get a particularly good 1959 Les Paul. But quality control sucked back then. The instruments are now being made to a much higher standard.

When I was first at Gibson, someone asked "okay, level with me. Would you rather have a Les Paul being made today, or one from 1959?"

I answered "one from 1959, of course."

The person gave me this look like "Aha! He says the old ones were better! I KNEW it!"

And then I added "That way I could sell the 1959 to a collector with more money than brains, and make enough from selling it to buy as many guitars I want for the rest of my life. I think I'll start with another PRS."

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Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Anderton #3043244 05/12/20 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
Here's another one: a 1959 Les Paul is going to be much better than a 2019 one.

To which the correct answer is - well, maybe, if you get a particularly good 1959 Les Paul. But quality control sucked back then. The instruments are now being made to a much higher standard.

When I was first at Gibson, someone asked "okay, level with me. Would you rather have a Les Paul being made today, or one from 1959?"

I answered "one from 1959, of course."

The person gave me this look like "Aha! He says the old ones were better! I KNEW it!"

And then I added "That way I could sell the 1959 to a collector with more money than brains, and make enough from selling it to buy as many guitars I want for the rest of my life. I think I'll start with another PRS."


Hah! This is certainly true. I'd do the same for the same reason.

A genuine D'Angelico archtop might be another story but I'm not getting one of those either unless a miracle occurs.

Modern Fender guitars are far better build quality than older ones as well.
And - (people hate when I say this!!!!) - the new Martins with the multi-laminate neck and "plastic" (sorry, Richlite!!!!) fretboards that I've played usually sound amazing. So do some vintage Martins but I had a 65 D-18 that was not impressive at all.

One aspect of older guitars is that pickups were all handwound. They can vary wildly. I've heard/played vintage P-90s that just screamed and some that sounded dull, yet lifeless.
The same is true for Fender pickups, everybody wanted to buy my 65 Tele decades ago because the bridge pickup was a special sort of evil. Some of them aren't.

A freind had a vintage Tweed Champ that sounded like no other. Could have been the OT, could have been a magical tube (another voodoo magic mojo thang), I have no idea. I've never heard another that sounded like that.


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Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
KuruPrionz #3043257 05/12/20 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
And - (people hate when I say this!!!!) - the new Martins with the multi-laminate neck and "plastic" (sorry, Richlite!!!!) fretboards that I've played usually sound amazing.

Thanks for bringing up another BS myth. When I was at Gibson, I researched Richlite big time. It's better than conventional wood in just about EVERY RESPECT except snob appeal. Talk to any expert luthier, and they'll tell you the same thing - Richlite is more consistent, doesn't get messed up by changes in weather, and you can even refret a Richlite fingerboard without tearing it apart.

I was disappointed when "the new Gibson" jettisoned Richlite for the Custom Shop. If their buyers are too closed-minded to do the research needed to understand that Richlite would give them a better guitar, better playing experience, and better fingerboard, then I think it's the company's responsibility to educate people as to why they should want a superior guitar instead of slavishly following the past because, well, "it's the past so it must be good."

Sure, for traditionalists, a fingerboard has to be wood, preferably an endangered species - particularly for the lawyers who still fancy themselves rock and rollers, and spend thousands of dollars on a "relic'ed" guitar so they can pretend they went on the road. Okay, go play with your toys and live in your dream world. I make my living with guitars, and I want the best guitar...not the best status symbol.

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Anderton #3043258 05/12/20 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
And - (people hate when I say this!!!!) - the new Martins with the multi-laminate neck and "plastic" (sorry, Richlite!!!!) fretboards that I've played usually sound amazing.

Thanks for bringing up another BS myth. When I was at Gibson, I researched Richlite big time. It's better than conventional wood in just about EVERY RESPECT except snob appeal. Talk to any expert luthier, and they'll tell you the same thing - Richlite is more consistent, doesn't get messed up by changes in weather, and you can even refret a Richlite fingerboard without tearing it apart.

I was disappointed when "the new Gibson" jettisoned Richlite for the Custom Shop. If their buyers are too closed-minded to do the research needed to understand that Richlite would give them a better guitar, better playing experience, and better fingerboard, then I think it's the company's responsibility to educate people as to why they should want a superior guitar instead of slavishly following the past because, well, "it's the past so it must be good."

Sure, for traditionalists, a fingerboard has to be wood, preferably an endangered species - particularly for the lawyers who still fancy themselves rock and rollers, and spend thousands of dollars on a "relic'ed" guitar so they can pretend they went on the road. Okay, go play with your toys and live in your dream world. I make my living with guitars, and I want the best guitar...not the best status symbol.

2 of my all time favorite guitars ever are Rainsongs. They are all graphite and resin, there is no wood. They look great, they play great, they sound amazing - always, and all of my guitar playing friends are hoping they will get them when I die, lol.

With the exception of a couple of vintage Silvertone Danelectros, I don't collect guitars. If they can add to my sounds then I might accumulate. I don't care what they are made of, who made them, where they came from or what color they are. I do love pretty wood but it doesn't have to be on guitars. One of my current favorites is a well beaten Ibanez Gio Mikro, it's sort of a homely, nasty little thing but with the shorter scale and intonatable bridge it makes a great Nashville tuned guitar. Slip a bit of that under a six string acoustic and you'll never know it's a cheap Indonesian midget Strat.


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Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Markyboard #3043260 05/12/20 03:56 AM
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OK, here's another guitar myth.

You wanna sound like Jimi Hendrix? You need to get a left-handed Strat, flip it over and play it through a vintage Fuzz Face and Wah pedal into a Marshall stack.
Yeah, that s the ticket.

If that were true, where are all the great Hendix-style guitarists? Randy Hansen has spent his life doing a Jimi Hendrix tribute show, it's really good but it's not Jimi.
He knows it, his show is a respectful bow to a true guitar pioneer.

Nobody is going to sound like Hendrix. So, now what?

Since each of us is blessed (and stuck) sounding like ourselves, why not become the best YOU that YOU can?
I can figure out quite a few signature licks without trying very hard, I've never learned anybody else's guitar solo note for note and can't imagine why I would ever do that.

Sure, you fire up Folsom Prison Blues and I'll start the solo with "dah-do dah deet dah deet deet" but all bets are off after that.


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Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
KuruPrionz #3043271 05/12/20 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
Since each of us is blessed (and stuck) sounding like ourselves, why not become the best YOU that YOU can?

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

I just wrote an article for Sweetwater's inSync magazine on 10 rookie recording mistakes. One of them was not mixing your voice high enough (are you listening, BMD?). I said to own your vocal, keep it human, and if you don't think it's good enough, I have two words for you:





Bob Dylan smile

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Anderton #3043274 05/12/20 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
Bob Dylan smile

Ha!!! Bob Dylan is a fine singer, he just sounds like Bob Dylan. Same is true for John Prine, Lucinda Williams, Leonard Cohen and that is truly a long list!
I listen to my own voice and I am starting to get used to it but others tell me they like my singing so I'm going with THEIR opinions. laugh

I do sound just like me though.

If you tell your story and aren't too hideous pitch-wise you should do fine. I think I'm good at phrasing and that helps.
I am transfixed by a great lyric and a great story. A great singer doesn't do much for me unless they are telling a story.

Was shopping the other day and the canned music played Mariah Carey's version of "I Wanna Know What Love Is" - the Foreigner song. First time I'd heard it.
I never liked the song or Mariah Carey but she knocked that one out of the park. She got pipes, no doubt. She made the story come alive and I felt it.

The video is 10 feet deep in Velveta, good hair though... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCadlN8fexk


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Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
KuruPrionz #3043328 05/12/20 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
OK, here's another guitar myth.

You wanna sound like Jimi Hendrix? You need to get a left-handed Strat, flip it over and play it through a vintage Fuzz Face and Wah pedal into a Marshall stack.
Yeah, that s the ticket.

Reminds me of a time when the guitarist, who was a pretty good player and had a nice sounds guitar, asked me "Can you get it sounding more like Doc Watson?". I said, sure, I'll give you his phone number and you can bring him in for the session. Then assured him that his guitar sound and playing were just fine, and told him that the reason nobody else sounded just like Doc is because he's Doc and it's how he plays. It's his touch. He can pick up any guitar and he'll still sound like Doc. You could pick up Doc's guitar and still sound like you.

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Mike Rivers #3043357 05/12/20 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Rivers
Reminds me of a time when the guitarist, who was a pretty good player and had a nice sounds guitar, asked me "Can you get it sounding more like Doc Watson?". I said, sure, I'll give you his phone number and you can bring him in for the session. Then assured him that his guitar sound and playing were just fine, and told him that the reason nobody else sounded just like Doc is because he's Doc and it's how he plays. It's his touch. He can pick up any guitar and he'll still sound like Doc. You could pick up Doc's guitar and still sound like you.


^^^This is the reality. The fantasy used to be a significant income for me.
The aftermarket pickup industry fueled lots of installations for me, a rock star would endorse bla bla bla and I'd put them in local players guitars. DiMarzio Super Distortion in the bridge, PAF in the neck - did a TON of those.

Then, Frampton Live came out. I installed a middle pickup in a couple of Les Pauls. Not an easy one so I charged for it but the players really "needed the Frampton sound." Always disliked that record!

The Floyd Rose locking vibrato system came out and the first Van Halen record hit. Nobody was making guitars with Floyds installed at the factory, I became the Floyd Rose installer. At least I liked the record.
Eventually, the deal was struck with Kramer and then I became the Floyd Rose setup guy. They are kind of tricky to set up, one adjustment changes the other ones. Easier work, still money coming in.

I got to see this "I want to sound like *XYZ*" thing first hand. Some of my customers were playing in cover bands doing straight covers so a Floyd Rose was a tool for them and they made money using it.
Others were simply delusional but happy when they got their new toys. Either way, I got paid.


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Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Markyboard #3043407 05/12/20 07:41 PM
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Not all 1958/59/60 Les Pauls were quality guitars, there were duds from that era. A bone stock '59 has a gorgeous maple top won't mean it has great tone.

The tone is in the wood - the body, the neck. I always auditioned guitars unplugged, I want to hear the wood resonate. That goes a long way towards good tone, and my peers who play my guitars agree. You can change the pickups and strings and electronics, but they won't save poor tonewoods. You can't plan good tonewoods, it is a game of chance. There's no way to predict if they are going to sound great until the finished product is put together. Then they get shipped to the retail stores and you have to cherry pick to find the good ones.

You can find modern guitars with good tone. I landed a very good LP from 2006, one of the custom pieces made for Guitar Center. When customers were peeking around the corner wondering where that guitar sound was coming from, that was a great big clue that if I didn't buy that guitar someone else was going to. I know some very discriminating guitar players who have played it and they couldn't believe it is bone stock.

You can find a good guitar from any era. Fenders required more cherry picking, acoustic guitars a LOT more.

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
Markyboard #3043411 05/12/20 08:10 PM
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And here's another one: Ancient, vintage Neumann condenser mics are as good as it gets, and are way better than the reissues. Well...not necessarily. It depends on what shape the diaphragm is in.

Re: Fact Checker: Dispelling Forum "Gospel"
The Real MC #3043415 05/12/20 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by The Real MC
Not all 1958/59/60 Les Pauls were quality guitars, there were duds from that era. A bone stock '59 has a gorgeous maple top won't mean it has great tone.

The tone is in the wood - the body, the neck. I always auditioned guitars unplugged, I want to hear the wood resonate. That goes a long way towards good tone, and my peers who play my guitars agree. You can change the pickups and strings and electronics, but they won't save poor tonewoods. You can't plan good tonewoods, it is a game of chance. There's no way to predict if they are going to sound great until the finished product is put together. Then they get shipped to the retail stores and you have to cherry pick to find the good ones.

You can find modern guitars with good tone. I landed a very good LP from 2006, one of the custom pieces made for Guitar Center. When customers were peeking around the corner wondering where that guitar sound was coming from, that was a great big clue that if I didn't buy that guitar someone else was going to. I know some very discriminating guitar players who have played it and they couldn't believe it is bone stock.

You can find a good guitar from any era. Fenders required more cherry picking, acoustic guitars a LOT more.

There is truth to the wood/tone aspect of your post and I also like to play a solid body instrument unplugged. If it sounds good unplugged, it sounds good.
And yes, with factory made guitars from the past, the woods are a variable that can make one guitar better than another. Custom made guitars may be another story, a luthier will often do a "tap test", holding a piece of wood by balancing it on a finger and then sharply flicking another finger while holding the wood close to one's ear. Some pieces of wood "ring", others "thump".

As a guitar tech, I've played a LOT of Les Pauls and some of them sing and chime and some of them sound like a wet log. Sounds like you picked a good one!!!
I mention in a post above the variables in vintage hand wound pickups, you also have to factor in the condition of the electronics and the hardware.
The old Gibson tune-o-matic bridge with the bent piece of piano wire holding the saddles in place is a tone suck, especially the ones with the nylon saddles but the metal ones are not much better.

Your guitar will have a much better bridge on it, at that point I think Gibson was using Schaller made bridges, good stuff.

Crappy old tuners can suck tone too, anything mechanical that might resonate will eat sustain but not evenly.

I don't even consider vintage Fenders, the 7.5 fingerboard radius is a no-go for me. Gibson's 12" is much better, lower action while not inhibiting string bends.
The new Fenders/Gibsons with the compound radius (something Warmoth has been doing for a LONG time!!!) are a huge improvement for modern playing.

I build my own "Fenders" out of parts I chose. For my style of playing they are much better than the stock ones and far less costly. Resale value is lower too but my guitars are for me to play.

That doesn't stop me from buying and selling when opportunity arises, totally different subject. Cheers, Kuru


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
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