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Kurzweil Forte organ sounds?


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Dave Weiser has some really good organs. There is a free organ pack on the Kurzweil site to download, and a really good community that shares files in places like Mastering VAST and Facebook.

 

I"m not sure I find the Leslie sim to be of the caliber of the best dedicated clone wheels but the organ tone is actually really good with the right tweaks. There"s a lot of parameters. I am fine with what I have in Forte for playing organ parts with a band. You can independently route organ output to a Vent or integrate controls and sliders to B-3X for iPad and use the Forte input for that if you need more. I also have a dedicated clone wheel organ if that"s my primary focus. Happy to share my experiences to help make KB3 usable for you if it can be.

Yamaha U1 Upright, Roland Fantom 8, Nord Stage 4 HA73, Nord Wave 2, Korg Nautilus 73, Viscount Legend Live, Lots of Mainstage/VST Libraries

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Many of the stock sounds in the Forte don't do justice to this keyboard's potential. However Dave Weiser's custom sounds really shine & he is very helpful in answering questions. I have been using his organ programs first with the PC3 & now the Forte. In a band situation these organs are second to none (IMO) plus they are very editable.

Actually the same can be said for Dave's APs, EPs, clavs, strings etc.

 

Wishing you all the best!

 

Larry

Kurzweil Forte 7, PC3, PC4, Hydrasynth, Kronos 61, UltraNova, Rhodes, Clavinet D6, MiniMoog, GSI Burn, ELX112Ps, SpaceStation, Assorted Weapons
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The KB3 engine is actually quite good. The weak spot is the Leslie sim. Dave Weiser's tweaks help a lot. But an external sim really brings the engine alive. I've used the KB3 engine through a real Leslie and the Ventilator and it does a great job in a band context. I don't think I'd use it for an exposed organ trio jazz gig, but for rock / blues / country / pop it's great.
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The weak spot is the Leslie sim...

 

...and the percussion. No matter how I ever tried to tweak it, it never sounds right to me. But overall the KB3 organ sounds at least as good as in any other workstation.

LIFE IS SHORT, GO GET THE GEAR YOU WANT ;-)

 

 

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The weak spot is the Leslie sim...

 

...and the percussion.

The reason that the percussion doesn't sound right is because KB3 is modeled incorrectly. The percussion flows through the Chorus/Vibrato rather than around the Chorus/Vibrato. In a real Hammond it goes around the C/V. So when C/V and percussion are both on you and you strike a note you can hear the percussion wobble. Turn off the Chorus/Vibrato, then try percussion and suddenly the percussion will sound more correct. There is no user fix for this as the fix would have to come from Kurzweil in a system update. I brought this to their attention several years ago but a fix was never forthcoming for the PC3 series. Worse, they moved the same flaw into the Forte.

 

I've done substantial work on KB3 and the leslie settings. I've found the double leslie to sound fuller but it needed alot of tweaking to minimize the inherent warble in fast speed. After many hours of tweaking the leslie settings I came up with a leslie configuraton that works fairly well.

 

I'm not sure if you can get to this link or not: https://forums.godlike.com.au/index.php?topic=3861.msg31515#msg31515

 

If you can, the setup attached to this link has a tweaked double leslie where i have attempted to minimize the warble of the fast leslie. You should be able to extract the double leslie effect being used within this setup and apply it to your own organ program, or just use the setup I created.

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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Our church band is eyeing a Kurz SP6. Can the above mentioned customizations be loaded on that model? Does any of you have improved organ sounds for it and willing to share?

Life is subtractive.
Genres: Jazz, funk, pop, Christian worship, BebHop
Wishlist: 80s-ish (synth)pop, symph pop, prog rock, fusion, musical theatre
Gear: NS2 + JUNO-G. KingKORG. SP6 at church.

 

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The newer Kurzweils (from the PC3 forward) have TREMENDOUS potential but no one should ever be content just using them out-of-the-box. There is so much programming capability in these boards that to buy one and merely use it as is from the factory is a disservice to the owner. Like Dave, I've spent the last few years really getting inside the V.A.S.T. architecture that is a trademark of Kurzweil's newer boards and IMO you can literally get any factory sound in these boards to a point of accuracy and authenticity based on your personal expectations and perception. I've been through three different models of the Neo Vent, thinking I could improve on the internal rotary effects that I've honed in my Kurzweils, and have ended up reselling all three, being totally content with what I have internally. This, coming from someone who was born and raised on the real deal, performing professionally for 20+ years using a B3 and 1-2 real Leslie cabinets.

Kurzweil PC4-7

Kurzweil Artis 7

Alto TS312 Powered Speakers (2)

Samson 6 channel mixer

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The newer Kurzweils (from the PC3 forward) have TREMENDOUS potential but no one should ever be content just using them out-of-the-box.

 

Exactly !

 

I get amazing sounds out of my PC3.

 

IMO,- even tinkering w/ leslie sim settings over years,- there´s ONE parameter missing,- "mic distance" !

I really think that´s what makes the internal leslie sim too "pitchy".

There´s still too muchn pitch modulation,- regardless what you do.

I´ve found settings being usable, but they are far from what the real deal does,- and all the other I downloaded and tweaked in addition,- are too !

What can you do w/ all the parameters existing incl. "mic´s position" for hi- and low rotor and "mic´s angle",- when the "distance" is missing ?

 

When you look at most (if not all) the available ext. leslie sim FX boxes,- "mic distance" is an important parameter.

Well, in Kurzweil, you´re able to adjust "low/hi resonance" and "low/hi tremolo", but it´s not the same and finding the right balance between those parameters is a difficult task anyway.

Sometimes "too much" is not enough AND it doesn´t compensate for other solutions offering simpler settings.

It´s also not uderstandable why Kurzweil ignores the "percussion thru C/V" issue.

What´s soooo difficult to change a single "routing"-parameter inside a physical model code ?

 

IMO,- Kurzweil is too lazy in this department.

Meanwhile, when I´d buy a hardware workstation keyboard offering an electromagnetic organ model,- I don´t want to buy ext. overdrive and leslie sims in addition.

In software,- these are so much better meanwhile,- VB3.2, Blue3 and others,- as also HX3 in the HX3-expander.

 

A.C.

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My Kurzweil experience started with a PC88mx which I liked limited as it was. After a couple of years pieces of plastic started breaking off the Keyboard action and it began making a loud clacking noise.

 

I then replaced it with a PC2X/O sight unseen because I had been happy with the PC88. It sounded fine when I played it at home but the first time I took it on stage I found the KB3 Organ sounds to be so anemic that I considered returning it. There were a good amount of parameters that could be tweaked and I was able to get a beefier sound out of it so I kept it. I knew someone else that had one and he never used the KB3 Organs because they were so weak. I told him what parameters to adjust and he got his to where it was acceptable. I can't understand how Kurzweil could overlook something like that. I got the Organ sound to where it was usable but the Percussion wasn't even close to sounding like a Hammond at all and the Vibrato/Chorus was not all that great either.

 

If this was the extent of the issues I probably would have purchased another Kurzweil but I really had a problem installing the Classic Keys ROM on the PC2X/O. This wouldn't be a problem with current Kurzweils but with the PC2 you had to do a software update when installing the ROM. I tried and tried and couldn't get the software update to work. I contacted Kurzweil a few times and told them what gear I was using to do the update and they just told me to keep trying and didn't offer any suggestion other than take it to a tech. I took it to a Kurzweil dealer and the tech there had it for a couple weeks and couldn't get the software update to work and finally told me to come get it. He had been in contact with Kurzweil and still wasn't able to do it. I then took it to another service center. They had it about a week and I went in to get the Keyboard because I needed it for a gig. While I was there they ran the update procedure and it didn't work. They ran it a few more times and then the Classic Keys started to make a weak sound. They ran the update a few more times and the sound got better. After a few more times it seemed to be good. When I got on stage that night and tried to use the Classic Keys sounds it was like the first time I tried the KB3. The sounds were so weak they were unusable. At home I found I could tweak them as I had the KB3 sounds but the edited sounds had to stored in another location. I would have to replace other sounds I didn't really want to lose and I would have a whole unusable bank with the original Classic Keys sounds. I contacted Kurzweil and explained what was happening. Their response was "Gee, we've never heard of that problem before." No suggestions about how to fix this after I spent hundreds of dollars.

 

Another problem I had with the PC2 was getting the left and right outputs to work. I wanted to set it up so Bass sounds came out of the left output and all other sounds came out of the right output. When I set this up it worked fine through headphones but when I plugged cables into the L and R outputs to separate amps I could not get it to work. I had to use a separate sound module for Bass.

 

There are plenty of things to like on Kurzweils with multiple splits, layers, and controller functions. I was able to make the PC2 work but it was never optimal. I'm sure current Kurzweil products are much improved though there seems to be some doubt about whether there is much improvement with KB3 and I would really have to see if the sounds from the Classic Keys are improved. As far as specs Kurzweil offers most of what I want but after my past experience I am apprehensive about buying another Kurzweil product without being able to thoroughly test it first.

C3/122, M102A, Vox V301H, Farfisa Compact, Gibson G101, GEM P, RMI 300A, Piano Bass, Pianet , Prophet 5 rev. 2, Pro-One, Matrix 12, OB8, Korg MS20, Jupiter 6, Juno 60, PX-5S, Nord Stage 3 Compact
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Hey Dave! I should have come straight to you in the first place :) After doing a bunch of research on keyboards I think I'm going to go with a Forte - as my cash flow picks up again over the next couple of months :P

 

Just gotta get a good Leslie sound happening. From the Forte KB3 demos I've listened to online (your patches not included), my issue is that there seems to be a lot of vibrato happening when the rotary effect kicks in. Not sure if that's just my ears but it just doesn't sound authentic to me. The actual tone of the organ sounds ok to me, but the vibrato just makes it sound a lot less authentic. That's just me. Maybe I can reduce the amount of vibrato/turn it off.

 

However I did stumble one of yours on YouTube last night and it sounded great, so there is hope!

 

Hope to chat soon man,

Chris K

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The weak spot is the Leslie sim...

 

...and the percussion.

The reason that the percussion doesn't sound right is because KB3 is modeled incorrectly. The percussion flows through the Chorus/Vibrato rather than around the Chorus/Vibrato. In a real Hammond it goes around the C/V. So when C/V and percussion are both on you and you strike a note you can hear the percussion wobble. Turn off the Chorus/Vibrato, then try percussion and suddenly the percussion will sound more correct. There is no user fix for this as the fix would have to come from Kurzweil in a system update. I brought this to their attention several years ago but a fix was never forthcoming for the PC3 series. Worse, they moved the same flaw into the Forte.

 

I've done substantial work on KB3 and the leslie settings. I've found the double leslie to sound fuller but it needed alot of tweaking to minimize the inherent warble in fast speed. After many hours of tweaking the leslie settings I came up with a leslie configuraton that works fairly well.

 

I think the inherent warble in fast speed that you mention is my problem. I'm hearing it in a heap of Forte organ demos and I really don't like it.

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The newer Kurzweils (from the PC3 forward) have TREMENDOUS potential but no one should ever be content just using them out-of-the-box.

 

I totally get that and I agree. But after being so disappointed by the Roland FA-08 I bought a couple of years ago (and I'm a longtime Roland user), I was kinda hoping for a bit more out-of-the-box playability from the next keyboard I buy.

 

That said, I don't mind tweaking and programming if the instrument has the potential to deliver something my ears will be happy with. I don't really want to buy another Roland as their latest offerings just seem like more of the same mediocre old sounds - some of which are good (and some are downright awful) but the stuff they're putting into their latest instruments just doesn't sound good to my ears. Hence I'm looking elsewhere :)

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The Sweetwater version of the Roland DS's have tweaked organs from their guy daniel fisher. These are quite good and use the roland vk leslie sim which is the boss rt20. That was good enough for danny c of Springsteen's band before the ventilator came out. No they aren't B3x which I have, but for most organ needs in a rock band context they are very good. The best Roland organs I've heard. Better than korg or yam in my opinion. Roland organs at 16:15. These aren't the tweaked ones with the vk leslie sim but are pretty good. I think the tweaked ones are not on the thumb drive but loaded on the board.

 

 

[video:youtube]

FunMachine.

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The Sweetwater version of the Roland DS's have tweaked organs from their guy daniel fisher. These are quite good and use the roland vk leslie sim which is the boss rt20. That was good enough for danny c of Springsteen's band before the ventilator came out. No they aren't B3x which I have, but for most organ needs in a rock band context they are very good. The best Roland organs I've heard. Better than korg or yam in my opinion. Roland organs at 16:15. These aren't the tweaked ones with the vk leslie sim but are pretty good. I think the tweaked ones are not on the thumb drive but loaded on the board.

 

 

[video:youtube]

 

I would prefer KB3 to those Roland DS organs anytime.

LIFE IS SHORT, GO GET THE GEAR YOU WANT ;-)

 

 

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Yep the KB3 at least attempts to be an organ sim with drawbars, percussion and C/V. The JUNO organs are samples and that's it. The VK leslie sim is in the box though.

For the earlier JUNO-G which I have, and the related Fantoms, you can download a sound pack from rolandclan.com called B4Real. What that guy did is create a patch for each drawbar, the percussion, the leakage and the click. Then he created a performance (multi) where he assigned those patches to the individual parts. That way you can get drawbar control and switch the percussion on/off. Then he made an effects chain with EQ, amp sim and the VK Leslie sim. When I'm not bringing the Nord to a show I'll use those Hammond sounds and they work fine. The limitation is you can't get polyphonic percussion and C/V.

 

The Jupiter-80, Jupiter-50, FA, Integra have the Roland VK organ sim as well with proper percussion, but still no C/V AFAIK.

Life is subtractive.
Genres: Jazz, funk, pop, Christian worship, BebHop
Wishlist: 80s-ish (synth)pop, symph pop, prog rock, fusion, musical theatre
Gear: NS2 + JUNO-G. KingKORG. SP6 at church.

 

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I decided to check for some patches on Ksetslist but it's down for maintenance. That's a good site to bookmark for a Kurzweil owner.

 

I hadn't really given much thought to working on improvements to the KB3 organ in my Forte for a long time and have other options, but if there are some good patches that improve the Leslie Sim I'd like to get them from another member and can trade some sounds in return.

Yamaha U1 Upright, Roland Fantom 8, Nord Stage 4 HA73, Nord Wave 2, Korg Nautilus 73, Viscount Legend Live, Lots of Mainstage/VST Libraries

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  • 2 years later...

While the KB3 is a very powerful and flexible engine, it is true the pitchiness/warble, percussion through chorus, and Leslie simulation could all be improved. For my occasional use, they are really good enough, but I understand others have higher standards here.

 

I don't think Kurzweil is being lazy here, though it is hard to say. Possible reasons these oft complained issues have not been resolved:

 

Kurzweil no doubt has a small development team, smaller than Roland or Yamaha I'll bet. So they probably have to prioritize fixing bugs, and adding new features. TBH adding new features is more likely to boost sales of new units.


There is some specific design decision in the code, that makes changing this non trivial (looking at you, percussion through chorus), and really can only be fixed by redesign of a much larger part of the code than you'd think.

 

I once had a user complain about some software I was working on "how hard is it to change this, it is just one thing..." - from his viewpoint, sure, but in the source code it was not nearly so simple.

 

The KB3 source code, or Leslie effect code, may be lost - unlikely, but things like this happen. If that were the case, to fix these issues, they'd have to rewrite everything from scratch.

 

Just my thoughts - hey I'd like to see these fixes too!

 

 

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