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Played a $275K Steinway


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...in the showroom.

 

Black_Diamond_ebony_b_square.jpg

 

It was the Lang Lang Black Diamond grand with Spirio / r installed.

 

So what's all that mean? It's a Hamburg B with some really prominent design elements, with Steinway's new high-resolution record / edit / playback hardware installed.

 

Design elements

Well, they've dressed it up as a modern piano. Courtesy of Dakota Jackson, there are chrome silver diamond treatments on the legs, curved lid stick that folds the parallel to the curve of the body, etc. The overall effect is a love-it-or-hate-it aesthetic that I didn't warm to.

 

The Tech

Yamaha's had their Disklavier tech for a really long time. This is Steinway's entry. Hardware is built into the piano along with construction, any updates will be software only. I was told measurements are not key velocity, but rather hammer velocity, and are much higher resolution than MIDI. Control is wireless via the courtesy iPad Pro they throw in (hey a free iPad for $275K). Interestingly, your performance can then be edited (visually similar to a Logic or Pro Tools piano roll view), and then played back on the piano - which of course could then be recorded in the studio with Pro Mic Locker mics and such.

 

Playing the Piano

My favorite piano I've ever played was a 1963 Hamburg D, played it a couple of years ago. I was hoping for a similarly transcendent experience. This piano did not provide it. It sounded very good in an "average" kind of way, if that makes any sense. I expect a flagship type unit to be tuned, somewhat regulated, etc. And this did not disappoint. But it didn't seem to 'sing' the way my best playing experiences went with pianos I adored. Sigh.

 

Also, it seemed to me the depth of the key travel was infinitesimally shallower than I was expecting - I don't know if this is a result of the Spirio / r hardware or my imagination or what...but the sales guy never outright denied it. I can't be bothered to look it up, but it's worth mentioning here.

 

Anyway - I suppose the Executive Summary of all this is:

It's the most expensive piano I think I've every played. It wasn't my favorite, it wouldn't be my first or second choice. But if some kind soul were to give it to me gratis, I would find some room in the house for it.

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Saw your post on FB. Beautiful piano.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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I think what this offers is the ability for recording pianists to go Pat Metheny in the studio.

 

Metheny reportedly polishes up his solos as a routine recording method. He'll 100% freely improvise in the studio, then take the recording home, learn that exact solo letter-perfect, and re-record it with perfection after the fact. So the notes are all improvised, but the execution is as polished as he'd had liked it to be.

 

Spirio / r would seem to offer the similar "editing after the fact" to pianists. Whether that's worth the price tag Steinway is asking remains to be seen.

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There is a theme in high-end pianos to be evaluated as art works -- in addition to their musical prowess. The art side of the equation can boost their price far beyond what the instrument side might be worth.

 

I speak from experience. I was seduced by a Bosendorfer 200 Klimt Edition ("The Kiss"). It's an amazing instrument (as are most Bosedorfers you will encounter) but the custom art work sort of sent me and my wife over the top into "gotta have it" territory. I did not overpay for the exquisite artwork (long story), so sort of a deal if you care about such things.

 

The diamond inlay thing on this instrument does nothing for me. I doubt most people would pay list price, unless they're lazy billionaires. Actually, I've found out that's a thing.

 

The advanced record/edit capabilities are intriguing. Brings up the question -- is it time for something with more resolution than MIDI? Steinway seems to think so.

 

I feel a need to fly to Melbourne and play a Stuart and Sons piano. Everything I've seen online blows me away.

 

I think there's another mountain to climb.

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Cool experience! I'm not that much into the piano as object d'art, but most of the grand pianos sold are in fact sold as furniture. So there will be a buyer.

 

In answer to cphollis's question, yes, it is definitely time for more than MIDI. Bosendorfer's system (pre Yamaha) had 1024 levels and was the best of those type of systems. I have a NonLinear Labs C15 synthesizer. It does not have MIDI. The keyboard scanning is over 4k times a second. It plays so expressively! My VAX77 keyboard oversamples the MIDI spec and uses 14-bit MIDI if your soft synths support it. It makes a big difference. NOTE: it is NOT about being able to play 1023 vs 1019 reliably. It IS about having natural variation expressed as a difference. Moderate playing will give MIDI values of 50-90 or so on most controllers. That's only 40 out of 128. That same range might be over several hundred or thousand on non-MIDI systems. It ends up driving a huge difference in expression. Anyone who deeply cares about accuracy of expression as a maker looks for a way. Look at the Hakken Continuum. Same thing - no MIDI, massively oversampled so that every gesture is unique and can drive sonic changes subtly, like an acoustic instrument.

 

If you want the piano experience of a lifetime, then yes, I would go to Australia and play a Stuart and Sons. It is actual technical innovation and changing the game, not just tarting a piano up with flashy jewelry. The Stuart and Sons pianos all look good too, but what's inside is objectively more capable. Whether it is desirable is personal taste.

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I recently Played a Steinway B at the Steinway store in Walnut Creek, Ca. The piano had the Spirio R system and it was very impressive.

 

As far as technical innovation goes the idea of agraffes on the bridge cap was first introduced in the 1900's by story and clark. Julius Blüthner published a book of piano innovations in Leipzig in the 1890's that contained just about every soundboard and scale variation you could imagine.

Peace

 

 

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  • 9 months later...
I too have played on this Piano at Steinways in London. Some interesting design ideas, but as I was told by a member of staff there, most new Steinways are bought by non-musicians as investments and status symbols, and this one is a classic example of nouveau riche.

 

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Yeah it's that way with Hammonds also. I helped a tech that's a good friend do a bussbar lube job on a 1958 Hammond B-3. It was mint. This surgeon wanted it to be able put it in a living room but wasn't a musician?? It's the worse thing for a Hammond to sit, kind of like a classic car.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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Yeah it's that way with Hammonds also. I helped a tech that's a good friend do a bussbar lube job on a 1958 Hammond B-3. It was mint. This surgeon wanted it to be able put it in a living room but wasn't a musician?? It's the worse thing for a Hammond to sit, kind of like a classic car.

That seems pretty strange even for a collector. Your average cocktail party guest wouldn't know what it was, and they really aren't all that elegant or attractive unless you do.

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

-Mark Twain

 

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My high school has a 1939 Steinway D. When I was in school it was long neglected and not playable; there were a bunch of talented kids coming through the same time as me, so they decided to restore the piano. By my sophomore year it was playable, and sounded/played GREAT. I recorded my ragtime medley on it. If that piano ever came up for sale, I will be first in line to grab it but it's still in use. Those pre-WWII pianos are excellent.
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Dave I saw that. I bet it is nice. A lot of people shit on Steinway but they still make a great instrument. Every one of the practice rooms at my music school has them of different vintage years.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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I love Steinways, but in my experience the variability between them is large. The best are incredible but I"ve also played some not so good Steinways. A friend of mine recently bought and restored an old Steinway A (6"2'). I"ve been somewhat involved in this project. After it was restored and delivered to his house he asked me to play it before and after it was regulated. I played it before and it was awesome considering. I haven"t played it after because of the virus, but someday I will. All in, I don"t think he spent more than $20K but it was a lot of work managing the project and not without some risk.
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The two most wonderful pianos I've ever play were a Bosendorfer Grand Dragon or whatever they called it with the extra bass octave and a similar Fazioli. Both were transcendent experiences--everything disappeared except the piano and me, and it felt like the instrument was playing me at times. Fazioli by a nose.

 

A year later, I played a wonderful 6' Fazioli at NAMM--loved it! Again, I was lost in the music and when I turned around, Pianoman Chuck was there and we had a nice chat.

Doug Robinson

www.dougrobinson.com

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Completely random Steinway babbling.

 

If any of you are within striking distance of Fresno CA, the Uni there - CSUF has a Steinway grand (full, not baby) in the Student Union lounge.

 

Story is that it came around Cape Horn before the Panama Canal was available.

 

As near as I can tell it is solid rosewood, not veneer. Dad was a master carpenter so I know the visual cues for solid wood and veneer.

 

The room is very large and reflective, it sounds glorious in there if somebody good (not me!!!) is playing. We used to go there to shoot pool downstairs and often we would hear the magic and take a listening break.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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I've heard Dave and others talk about getting a grand into tip top shape, how that'll make the difference in an instrument going from good to excellent, even outstanding. As I've understood it, this includes having one of the top tuners work on it as well as in depth work on the action.

 

I know this question has too many variables, but I wanted to at least get a feel. Let's say you've got a reasonably good grand that's been recently tuned, and there's no noticeable problems with the action that has to be repaired. What's the price range to go from a good piano with no actionable problems, to the piano being tuned and regulated to the best it can be (without being perfectionistic, going from 95% outstanding to 99.9% perfect can be twice the cost!).

 

The way I've heard it described, having the top tier tuners and action regulators can help a piano 'sing'! Perhaps some of the higher end pianos that are 'transcendent' have been optimally tuned and regulated, and less expensive pianos would become appreciably better by such treatment.

Numa Piano X73 /// Kawai ES920 /// Casio CT-X5000 /// Yamaha EW425

Yamaha Melodica and Alto Recorder

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I've had the pleasure of playing a host of not-bad uprights, a Baldwin baby grand, a Steinway 12-footer, a Kawai baby grand and a Bosendorfer Imperial Grand. (!) I hear all of your accolades and complaints, including the echoes of numerous oddball or near-miss keyboards in my history, such as the RMI Electra-Piano & several Rhodes pianos in a variety of conditions. I recall the Baldwin and Bosendorfer as being the most velvety to play, with the best voices. Quite a leap between those two, I know, but Feel is King.

 

I'm happy about the experiences I had. You know what makes it amusing? A real grand is not on my map & I couldn't do it justice anyway, so I'm probably heading for Pianoteq. My hands are not 100%, so I'm going to "play" it from a plastic controller with more or less 'normal'-sized keys. Both horrifying & hilarious, ain't it? :eek: So what? Its magic, so I'm going to keep plowing ahead like a three-legged dog. :thu::rawk:

 "I want to be an intellectual, but I don't have the brainpower.
  The absent-mindedness, I've got that licked."
        ~ John Cleese

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I've heard Dave and others talk about getting a grand into tip top shape, how that'll make the difference in an instrument going from good to excellent, even outstanding. As I've understood it, this includes having one of the top tuners work on it as well as in depth work on the action.

 

I know this question has too many variables, but I wanted to at least get a feel. Let's say you've got a reasonably good grand that's been recently tuned, and there's no noticeable problems with the action that has to be repaired. What's the price range to go from a good piano with no actionable problems, to the piano being tuned and regulated to the best it can be (without being perfectionistic, going from 95% outstanding to 99.9% perfect can be twice the cost!).

 

The way I've heard it described, having the top tier tuners and action regulators can help a piano 'sing'! Perhaps some of the higher end pianos that are 'transcendent' have been optimally tuned and regulated, and less expensive pianos would become appreciably better by such treatment.

 

Hmmm. How long is a piece of string? It is a hard question to answer. A solid regulation of the action will be $600-800. Generally, top techs are hard to come by. Some are brand specialists. Some primarily tune for a university or concert hall but will take side work. Some hold down repair gigs at high-end dealers. They are a delight. You would not be surprised to learn that they will feel you out as a customer over several tunings - how much do you know about how pianos work? Do you notice and appreciate the finer points of their craft? If they change the stretch in the upper octaves, do you notice? Can you communicate what you want in terms that translate to something they can adjust? Are you going to fall over if they quote you $1,500? Do you understand and appreciate the amount of time it takes to do the work and value it?

 

You can spend several thousand dollars going to the final levels. Let's just list some things you can do:

 

1. Tuning - doesn't do much for the mechanism, but a great tuning is a lot better than an average one.

2. Regulation - this is all the adjustments to the action. Much can be accomplished here with how it feels to play and how even it is. Do you need screws to be turned, or do you need to replace worn felts, leather back-checks, etc?

3. Voicing the hammers. This involves needling them to soften the felt, since the hammers harden from use and age (making the instrument brighter).

4. Replacing the hammers. This is expensive. It can make a big difference. You can simply replace to get back what was true when new, or you can make a change and hopefully get something you like better. This can definitely take your piano places it has never been. Will you like it? There are special hammers than can get rid of that bright thin quality that Yamaha pianos sometimes have. I would love that - but many Yamaha players would find their instrument eviscerated of the special tone they love.

5. Re-stringing and possible re-scaling. There are great piano wires available now that simply didn't exist 30 years ago. It isn't so much that most piano strings go "bad" as that the tone might be improved with a proper re-scaling using better wire. Will you like it? Like hammers, you will pay either way, and if you don't like it, you will have to pay to change it. The materials can't be re-used.

6. Full action rebuild or replacement. A beautiful new Renner action awaits, with fine Abel hammers (or others). It will play like new - why? It IS new! Probably $4500-$6000.

7. Bellywork - what they call replacing the soundboard. Small cracks don't matter, but soundboards are under a ton of pressure (literally), and over time lose the magic. Again, this is thousands of dollars - not cheap since you will likely get a new pin block too which has to be hand fit to the soundboard. Lots of specialized labor. You get a "new piano" - but it won't sound like the old one.

 

I've had two pianos completely rebuilt. One a Hamilton (Baldwin stencil brand) that I inherited from my grandfather. The other a Steinway A (85 note) from 1887 that was a basket case when I bought it - it went straight to the rebuilder and only came to me when it was done. It turned out magnificently. Full rebuild, refinishing, soundboard, action, the works. My rebuilds were done in NJ by a man who was a true artist. (But not a great businessman - he closed shop years ago).

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Nathanael,

Thanks for the detailed reply! All this talk of uber expensive pianos, good to know that less expensive models can be upgraded by virtue of talented techs and the willingness to invest in re-building if needed.

Numa Piano X73 /// Kawai ES920 /// Casio CT-X5000 /// Yamaha EW425

Yamaha Melodica and Alto Recorder

QSC K8.2 // JBL Eon One Compact // Soundcore Motion Boom Plus 

Win10 laptop i7 8GB // iPad Pro 9.7" 32GB

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The way I've heard it described, having the top tier tuners and action regulators can help a piano 'sing'! Perhaps some of the higher end pianos that are 'transcendent' have been optimally tuned and regulated, and less expensive pianos would become appreciably better by such treatment.

 

My father was one of those guys. He tuned pianos for artists and Van Cliburn's personal pianos. He passed on 10 years ago so other tuners have been working on his Steinway. Mother and I both agree it doesn't sound like it used to but we appreciate those tuners working for cheap since she's on fixed income. Guitars are similar in that a setup can make or break a otherwise great instrument. He was constantly tweaking the Steinway & Yamaha C7 so they not only sounded great on their own but together.

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I played a new Steinway B at Jacob's Music in West Chester, PA. I fell in love with the touch and tone, but at $100K, it's a little bit out of my budget range. :-) I am still saving up for a used Steinway M or L. Need to find the right one.

 

 

I don't know your price range but this B has been on the market for some time. If it is where the map says it is, it's not all that far from me.

 

I'm just a little leery of this broker guy. If it is good, I wonder why it hasn't been snatched up by now. It's a reasonable price, considering the year and if it indeed had one owner. I'd think that being for sale that long, it could be had for substantially less.

 

https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=40935

 

Thanks Dave! It"s hard to do piano shopping right ( my lessons are on Zoom). I decided if I am going to buy my forever piano, it would need to be perfect for me. I"m looking for Model B, but if I find a magic Model M or L, I"d be happy as well. I"ve been saving up for a long time, so I don"t mind waiting for the perfect one for me.

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Nathanael,

Thanks for the detailed reply! All this talk of uber expensive pianos, good to know that less expensive models can be upgraded by virtue of talented techs and the willingness to invest in re-building if needed.

 

You can definitely make a difference on any piano. I will tell you what a good rebuilder will tell you. Unless it is a Bosendorfer or a Steinway, the piano will not be worth what you put into it. That is about economics though and not about music. If you have a piano you like, you can probably find more to like with the help of a great tech. Pianos are bad investments anyway, unless you are a pianist, and then they are one of the best things you can own!

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I used to play at the Studio Cafe in Newport Beach. Actually it's called Balboa Island being right on the water. They had the piano near the door of the club, which they would leave open all day and night. I remember it being a Yamaha, maybe a C3. Year after year the piano kept going downhill from lack of maintenance, music seven nights a week and particularly the ocean air doing a number on it. It finally got so bad they got rid of it, along with the Jazz. The piano never stood a chance in those adverse conditions.

I really hate to hear these stories but it is inevitable given the number of pianos out there and the clueless owners. Abusing a high caliber piano should be a crime :(

A club in my hometown has a house piano (M&H) that they've let completely go to hell. I couldn't play it without complete disgust and whenever I played there I chose to use my MKS-20 or later Rhodes Mk80. Bill Evan's trio with Marc Johnson and Joe LaBarbera had a date there a few years earlier and Bill complained about it all night (it had been tuned/voiced that afternoon).

J a z z  P i a n o 8 8

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Yamaha C7D

Montage8 | CP300 | CP4 | SK1-73 | OB6 | Seven

K8.2 | 3300 | CPSv.3

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I used to play at the Studio Cafe in Newport Beach. Actually it's called Balboa Island being right on the water. They had the piano near the door of the club, which they would leave open all day and night. I remember it being a Yamaha, maybe a C3. Year after year the piano kept going downhill from lack of maintenance, music seven nights a week and particularly the ocean air doing a number on it. It finally got so bad they got rid of it, along with the Jazz. The piano never stood a chance in those adverse conditions.

I really hate to hear these stories but it is inevitable given the number of pianos out there and the clueless owners. Abusing a high caliber piano should be a crime :(

A club in my hometown has a house piano (M&H) that they've let completely go to hell. I couldn't play it without complete disgust and whenever I played there I chose to use my MKS-20 or later Rhodes Mk80. Bill Evan's trio with Marc Johnson and Joe LaBarbera had a date there a few years earlier and Bill complained about it all night (it had been tuned/voiced that afternoon).

Yes, a reality of real world conditions when an iconic legend like Bill is subjected to 'make do'. After all he had accomplished and the stature he earned at that state late in his in his life, yet there it was -- another bad piano to deal with. :(

 

Just to keep the Acoustic thing going for a bit, thought I might switch brands and post a couple of favorite videos with the Fazioli pianos.

It might appear I'm a shill for PianoWorks in Atlanta, but I can assure you I'm not. I just enjoy Derek's masterful playing, along with the excellent recordings of all the great pianos on their site.

The only piano in my experience that rivals the mighty Steinway D. This is an early 2000 something Faziloi 278 that sold fairly quick. One of the better recorded Faziolis I've heard on youtube -- even from major name performers and pro engineers. Really luscious sounding ! The Chopin Nocturne at 3:30 is a slice of heaven ! Again, for whatever reason, I can't embed the videos from the PianoWorks site.

And another exquisite recording of a 278. With top notch playing of the Debussy Reflects dans l'eau.

That is really nice!! I've never had the chance to play a Fazioli, but any demo recording has always made me love its sound!

When I was living in the Bay Area, I fell in love with a Schimmel. It was at a dealer at 101 & Montague across from Intel. it was '96 and the price tag was about $35k. I'd be interested in if you have any opinions on Schimmel?

Alas, I never had the space living there :)

J a z z  P i a n o 8 8

--

Yamaha C7D

Montage8 | CP300 | CP4 | SK1-73 | OB6 | Seven

K8.2 | 3300 | CPSv.3

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A nice article by Sally Phillips talking about the differences between the NY and Hamburg models. She's a Concert technician, Steinway dealer and occasionally posts on Piano world.

 

I'll lift a quote from the article as it again bears repeating.

 

"When a fine piano suffers in tone, leaving it open to complaint, this is far more likely to be the result of a lack of technical attention than of any failure on the part of the manufacturer. When a fine piano is lauded as fabulous, it has usually been tuned and voiced quite recently".

 

The article is four years old and from what I've read, I'm not certain if Steinway's ownership in the US is still on as 'solid ground', as she makes it sound back then.

 

All that biz stuff aside, it's still a good read.

 

https://pianoperfectllc.com/blog/2016/10/24/steinway-sons-a-tonal-journey

J a z z  P i a n o 8 8

--

Yamaha C7D

Montage8 | CP300 | CP4 | SK1-73 | OB6 | Seven

K8.2 | 3300 | CPSv.3

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