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"Pro" - help define. Plus bonus question.....


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I often see ads for musicians who claim to be "pros". When this term is used, what is the intent of the meaning?

 

- You're a really good player, but make no money playing?

- You're a touring musician?

- You make money playing locally?

- You've been playing a certain number of years in which after x number of years you've attained pro status?

 

I also see it in want ads. Looking for a pro keyboard player for some local band who needs a keyboard player. What are the traits that qualify me to say "yes, I'm a pro keyboard player" that you are looking for?

 

Followup question:

 

When musicians place ads they often use the term 'experience" as in I have 20 years experience, even though they are not quite 30 years old. I've always equated experience to when I joined my first band that actually played regularly out. So what is the intent when the word 'experienced' is used?

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I reckon a few resumes get padded from time to time in that regard!

 

I"ve never advertised myself, but if I were motivated to, I wouldn"t use terms like 'pro' which as you rightly point out seem to mean different things to different people. I would simply outline my specific experiences to help the hirer decide whether or not I"m worth bothering with.

 

When we"ve auditioned musicians I generally take terms like 'pro' with a grain of salt. We request pre-audition demos and then assess attitude and demeanour before during and after the audition process. Plus everyone kind of knows everyone around here anyway.

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I often see ads for musicians who claim to be "pros". When this term is used, what is the intent of the meaning?

So what is the intent when the word 'experienced' is used?

 

It means whatever the person claiming it wants you to think it means.

 

To me, "Pro" means music is the primary source of income. You and I could paint our houses or we could hire a "Pro" to do it.

To me, "Experienced" means I have experience doing what I've done. It should mean nothing to you. Followup questions required.

Neither define talent. Neither define character. They both give you a clue to the personality.

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To me, "Pro" means music is the primary source of income. You and I could paint our houses or we could hire a "Pro" to do it..

 

usually means this...asking for a 'pro' can also be a way of ensuring that the respondent is open/available to touring, and/or recording/rehearsing during daylight business hours. i.e. either you don"t have a day job, or you can easily schedule your day job around your primary career, i.e. being a keyboard player.

 

Advertising for a pro can also refer to a situation where a non-professional, yet serious amateur band playing original music needs someone to step in on short notice, i.e. gig booked, regular keyboard player bails. Many of the ads you see asking for a 'pro' often refer to this type of situation. At more established levels, this sort of gig goes by word of mouth, at less established levels, craigslist ads, etc.

 

I don"t know too many amateur keyboardists who would want to learn an entire night"s worth of original music on short term notice for free, but I do know plenty of 'pros' who would gladly do it for the right price.

 

It"s definitely not a term that should be used to quantify skill or talent...I am sure many people can paint their house just as good as a pro can, but for whatever the reason, sometimes you need to hire someone.

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Ha ha, yes, it depends on who wrote it and how he/she defines it.

But I think mostly it's supposed to suggest not a beginner and wanting to work/play with others who are not beginners.

 

That said - to the hiring/auditioning band/ensemble that "pro" designation needs to match, right?

If the gig calls for improvisation, or reading, or expertise in a particular style or all styles, familiarity with a standard set list. One might find oneself floundering, soaring or somewhere in between depending.

I know in any situation, professional behavior accounts for a lot (being on time, being prepared, etc.). But there's discrepancy in that definition of "pro" as well.

 

The "pros" that were hired to do the plumbing, roofing, gutters, etc. of my place before I bought it leave me questioning their "pro" status.

 

;)

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Pro as a definative term for musical ability does not mean doodley-squat on a local level.

 

We needed a pick-up drummer for one gig last winter, our drummer was going to Europe.

Our bassist set up an "audition-practice" with a local drummer who is gigging but was available for our date.

 

I was a "sideliner" in terms of how this audition was conducted, I'm not the bandleader and it was not on my turf. So I kept quiet.

I would have stopped the first song in the middle and thanked the drummer for auditioning. It just wasn't going to work out, at all.

 

But, we stayed and wasted an hour. It confimed my judgement, a hopeless situation. No groove, no sense of serving the song, a disaster. Bashing crash cymbals while the singer is singing? Ummm... no.

At the same time, a very nice person and easy to get along with. We've known him for a while and personality wise he is a great fit.

 

Meanwhile, I regularly jam with friend who plays cello pretty OK, has a wonderful voice and can get something musical out of anything you hand her. We lock grooves effortlessly. She would never be considered a "pro" musician at her present level but she is FUN to jam with and we are creating a sound together that we both enjoy. An album is in the works.

 

Some people have it, some people don't. Only way to know is to hear them in your own context.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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People will throw in the term Pro just to hopefully keep a lot of beginner and or inexperienced players from calling. Just a way to help filter out some people from contacting you and wasting your time having to say call me again in ten years. But then you left with the ones that do contact you and the variation in what they call experience. From my music and in computer world part of the new hire interview process the best indicator of their qualification is get them to tell you war stories from gigs or in computer world problem solving. What they consider good or bad experiences and how they dealt with them really reveals their experience level and ability to think on their feet.
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For me it's always a red flag in a craigslist ad or flyer. I hate to put it this way, but if you're a pro, I probably either know you or know of you, so if I don't....you probably ain't.

 

I think what people mean is that they get paid for some or all of the gigs they play, and want people to know they are not just starting out or sticking to the garage.

 

But it's also kind of meaningless. A couple of the best players I know in town are most definitely not "pros," in the sense that it has always been their side endeavor and they have career jobs in something else. But they play circles around some of the "pros" out there...

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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To me, "Pro" means music is the primary source of income. You and I could paint our houses or we could hire a "Pro" to do it..

 

usually means this...asking for a 'pro' can also be a way of ensuring that the respondent is open/available to touring, and/or recording/rehearsing during daylight business hours. i.e. either you don"t have a day job, or you can easily schedule your day job around your primary career, i.e. being a keyboard player.

 

Advertising for a pro can also refer to a situation where a non-professional, yet serious amateur band playing original music needs someone to step in on short notice, i.e. gig booked, regular keyboard player bails. Many of the ads you see asking for a 'pro' often refer to this type of situation. At more established levels, this sort of gig goes by word of mouth, at less established levels, craigslist ads, etc.

 

I don"t know too many amateur keyboardists who would want to learn an entire night"s worth of original music on short term notice for free, but I do know plenty of 'pros' who would gladly do it for the right price.

 

It"s definitely not a term that should be used to quantify skill or talent...I am sure many people can paint their house just as good as a pro can, but for whatever the reason, sometimes you need to hire someone.

 

+1 and well put.

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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My experience with bands and people who posted ads and said they were "pros" (or even worse, "pro's") has been very poor. I've never heard of any of them.

 

Talking to an actual pro one time about it, a cat who is a full-time musician and highly regarded around town at least, he pointed out that real pros never call themselves that. I quickly realized he was right and that all the cats at his level that we know never say that, they just do.

 

Band seeks pro keyboard player

 

Rock band with over 55 years of experience is seeking a keyboard player well-versed in most styles. Must own car. We are all pro's and will rehearse weekly for upcoming world tour.

 

Call Mick or Keef at number listed below.

 

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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I think of someone with 'pro' potential as a person that is interested in and capable of learning the whole song, intro/outro/solos/changes.

 

This in contrast to someone who knows the basic chords and changes in a song but hasn't taken the time to learn a cover song in its original form, making them more of a jam musician than a 'pro' that makes the extra effort to learn the details of a song. Depending on the song, this can be huge difference: winging it or taking the time to learn it.

 

IME, it takes 3-5 times more effort/time to learn all the ins and outs of most songs. Even if you don't play a cover exactly like it was recorded, being able to do so AND THEN taking liberties is way more pro.

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I consider the term âPro' to apply to people who won"t waste time and don"t want their time wasted.

 

They know their abilities and know what they"re worth, and when.

 

This doesn"t mean that they won"t work for free or peanuts when it"s worth their time, but it does mean that whatever you offer them has to be worth it.

 

It also doesn"t mean that they can do *everything* or play like three Jordan Rudesses, but it *should* mean that they can gauge a job and tell you whether they"re the right guy for the job or not.

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I like the YouTube ad that pops up and a bald guy says

"I'm a former Nashville pro, and I can teach you to play worship piano / guitar in 10 days"

 

I'm parsing that as the "former" applies to the "Nashville pro". But that does not make sense. You can move out of Nashville but how can you be a former pro?

Life is subtractive.
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I agree with MOI that in most cases if they're really a pro, I will either know them or enough of the same people to be able to verify. Stuff like earning money and having experience and a minimum capability are sort of bare minimum expectations. To me, being a pro means you're going to do your job professionally and have experience doing so. It means you're going to show up prepared, on time, perform to expectations, and conduct yourself appropriately, as well as be able to commit to the expected schedule.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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I"m a former pro because I got tired of being poor. I mean the gross receipts weren"t bad but 401k and insurance package sucks. And expenses were high.

 

People contact me about gigs. I tell them I suck but they call back anyway. I don"t understand it.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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Kinda off-topic: it seems to me the people placing ads looking for a "pro" musician always have a long list of requirements - play certain material, sound just like the record, be available at every hour, top-notch equipment, etc. And yet these ads never say diddily-squat about what the "pro" musician can expect in return. So when I see "pro" as a qualifier in a musician wanted ad, I think this means the guy placing the ad has lots and lots of requirements for his musicians, and expects that musician to do it all for free. Dude, if I can do all those things you are expecting from me, I would be out there making money, not wasting my time with your dog-and-pony show.

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Kinda off-topic: it seems to me the people placing ads looking for a "pro" musician always have a long list of requirements - play certain material, sound just like the record, be available at every hour, top-notch equipment, etc. And yet these ads never say diddily-squat about what the "pro" musician can expect in return. So when I see "pro" as a qualifier in a musician wanted ad, I think this means the guy placing the ad has lots and lots of requirements for his musicians, and expects that musician to do it all for free. Dude, if I can do all those things you are expecting from me, I would be out there making money, not wasting my time with your dog-and-pony show.

 

Oh- and the "commitment": these ads always specify they want a pro, but not someone playing in other projects. If you want me to commit to your project, you had better be prepared to pay me the "committed" price.

J.S. Bach Well Tempered Klavier

The collected works of Scott Joplin

Ray Charles Genius plus Soul

Charlie Parker Omnibook

Stevie Wonder Songs in the Key of Life

Weather Report Mr. Gone

 

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To get rid of the angst, I think of it this way - amateur and pro aren't levels - they're not related in that way except for the marketing literature and the fuzzy thinking we sometimes apply. But If you translate into simple terms - you can be both.

 

- A pro (who gets paid) can also be an amateur (bcuz they love it). :laugh:

- Then there are pros (who get paid) but don't love it. :cool:

- Then there are pros (who can get paid) but decide to do it for free because they're also amateurs (bcuz they love it). :)

 

In the PR/marketing/fuzzy thinking world, "pro and amateur" are more often used as "virtue signaling" words - so there's that. :bor:

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There are many categories of Pro. Here are 4 examples; there may be more.

 

1. A Joke: Professional Wrestler

2. World Class: Professional Basketball Player

3: Expert: Professional Engineer or Union Electrician

4. Ill-defined: Professional Musician, Professional Photographer, Sanitation Engineer

J a z z  P i a n o 8 8

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Most of the time I look at ads like that and think that they've had a bad experience with an "Amateur". Someone that comes in with no clue of how to play the genre that they advertiser is wanting. So they use the term "Pro" to try to convey someone that actually knows what they're doing.

 

To me, the difference between Pro and Amateur is the money. Have you at one time or another made your living at it? Then technically, you're a pro. Do you make money at it, but is has always been a side gig? Semi-pro. Never made a dime? Amateur. Never played in public? Rank Amateur.

 

Notice that none of these say anything about ability.

 

When I measure experience, I have several yardsticks. Myself - 57 years experience - from my first lesson. 47 years experience - from my first paying gig. 42 years - from when I started making my living playing.

 

Again, it's just a timeline, not a measure of my abilities.

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

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It's not so much what "pro" might actually be, but what the people who use it in ads mean by it.

 

I don't think I've ever heard a working professional refer to him- or herself as a "pro" bassist or "pro" keyboardist, any more than I can imagine someone saying they are a "pro" doctor or "pro" scientist. You either are the thing or you aren't. When people refer to themselves that way in ads, I usually interpret it as, "has gigged for money and intends to do so again."

 

When people describe someone ELSE that way--"working band looking for pro keyboardist"--I usually think it's them letting people know they are not going to be someone's first band. They want someone who won't embarrass them during their bar gig, either with the staff or the crowd.

 

In neither case do I interpret it to mean, "professional who makes their living off of music and approaches it as a career." In fact, it's paradoxically the one word in the ad that tells me they are NOT professionals.

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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I think of "pro" as shorthand for "can do X competently, collegially, efficiently, reliably, promptly and politely, using suitable tools and materials, endeavouring to provide what clients request in the way that supervisors (e.g., bandleaders) direct"; i.e., in the way you would expect it to be done by someone who did it for a living. An amateur might be equally or more competent but might not be collegial, efficient, reliable, prompt or polite, or might not have pro-quality equipment; i.e., they will do only what suits them the way it suits them. In other words, the difference between professional and amateur is more about approach and attitude than skill.
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I'm an ok player who's been doing it for many years. (Never quit my day job, though). My responses to the few "keyboard player wanted" ads I've answered over the years always include "pro gear and attitude". I have excellent equipment, and I show up on time and prepared. Whether my playing is "pro" or not will be judged by others.
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