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Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
#3040912 04/27/20 11:05 PM
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I’m wondering how music venues will operate, say within the 6-12 months immediately after stay-at-home restrictions are lifted? Will there be an occupancy limit? Will there be a higher cover charge to offset lower customer numbers (and to pay the band)? More solo/duo acts and fewer bands? Will they take your temperature at the door? Will tables/occupants have to remain six feet apart? Will folks be allowed to dance? What about the lavatories (thinking of the typical nightclub john...yuck)? Will bouncers now be the social distance police? Just some random thoughts...


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3040914 04/27/20 11:12 PM
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I think this is going to be based on location. Some areas of the country that have had more widespread infections, hospitalizations and worse are going to be gun shy about larger venues. Even the smaller ones for a while. So officials in your region will make the call about what opens and when, and then players and audiences will make their own call regarding attendance. Online watch parties are a thing now, tip jar by venmo/paypal etc. Sort of the way streaming movies at home killed blockbuster and cut into movie theater and sporting event attendance.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3040917 04/28/20 12:01 AM
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How about small stages? Musicians must be 6 feet apart on a 10 foot stage. No singing into a mic you dont own and have personally disinfected. No sharing gear or switching off instruments allowed. I think the strict rules will last about a week then people will get militantly anti social distancing.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3040919 04/28/20 12:13 AM
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Watching the news as I post... in a Georgia restaurant every other table is taped off, servers are handing out disposable menus in masks and gloves...

It's gonna be different.

Venues with outdoor seating should fare better. Before this all hit I had a steady Saturday lined up this summer in a very nice outdoor plaza as a DJ. It may be the only thing I can realistically do short term, but I'm not confident it will be there either.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3040920 04/28/20 12:16 AM
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Another interesting dynamic I'm expecting: differences in opinion between band members when it's safe to go back to playing live. I know in my case, I'm reluctant until either there's a vaccine OR some really effective treatments if one falls really ill and there's the hospital beds available to deliver those treatments. I've written off gigging during 2020 at this stage based on that but hope I'm wrong frown

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3040925 04/28/20 01:02 AM
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As Moonglow mentions, I think gigs that involve or support dancing will be the hardest hit. And in general, if crowd size/audience sizes are diminished, then the likely pay we will be offered will be affected. It's a simple equation that we've always lived with - how many people did you draw?

Conventions and weddings are going to hurt as well.

It's going to be tough for the rest of this year for sure.

Jerry

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3040926 04/28/20 01:05 AM
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Most places I've played over the last couple years (my weekend warrior career being at a low ebb while I raise young chilluns) were marginally profitable to begin with. Everything that makes these places safer also makes them less profitable. Reopening in a somewhat safe way assumes a resetting of economic expectations by everyone involved. It's hard to imagine how that's going to happen, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

Also typical of the places I play, and that most of us play, is people drinking to the point their judgment is impaired. In good times, that's a sign that your gig is going well. In present times, it's downright scary. Would you go to a knife-throwing party where drinking was encouraged?


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3040931 04/28/20 01:37 AM
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I've used my own mic for a LONG time now. You can only tolerate so many well beaten SM58's with beer-breath crusts built up in the windscreen and that was a LONG time ago.

My primary concern is that this virus spreads successfully through the air. To do that, it has to emerge from an infected person's mouth.

People at bars and clubs eat and drink - lots of uncovered mouths in proximity. At this point, that makes me profoundly uncomfortable.
I was in a hardware store today, needed a couple of things. Lots of "macho men" walking around with no gloves or masks.

The signs at the door encouraging social distancing were not well adhered to, surprise. The workers wore their PPE, I wore mine. I got in and back out fairly quickly and came straight home to disinfect.

Is it Darwin's way of thinning the herd perhaps? Something I would prefer to observe from a considerable distance!!!! Cheers, Kuru


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3040979 04/28/20 01:04 PM
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I'm pretty pessimistic that bands will be playing at all, at most places at least...the ones we tended to play were not high-paying to begin with and margins are always thin for (most) restaurants and bars. There will be plenty of people unwilling to go back out--I'm one, I don't envision going into a restaurant, store, bar, theater etc until there is a vaccine or other effective treatment--so those margins will be even thinner. Going to be a lot of jukebox-playing, maybe solo or duo bookings at most.

Medium term, I'm already reconciled to my gigging life to be done for at least a year. I'll be that guy in the band that won't play even if the bar books us and the rest of the band is willing to play. I live with two at-risk people and I'm not going to risk their lives over playing music.

I could easily see some benefits pop up, which we have played at before for various causes. Normally I'm all about that but not now.

This big re-opening might very well cause a major spike in cases, we shall see in a couple weeks. I've been reading some articles on just how contagious this is, indoors especially. Answer: VERY. One infected person in Wuhan directly infected people at other tables way more than six feet from him. And as mentioned, breathing/singing/shouting/coughing is the main worry.

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3040980 04/28/20 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonglow
Will folks be allowed to dance?
Yes, folks will be allowed to dance, but they must be at least 6 feet apart. This will give rise to a new form, called social disdancing.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Dave Holloway #3040983 04/28/20 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by David Holloway
Another interesting dynamic I'm expecting: differences in opinion between band members when it's safe to go back to playing live. I know in my case, I'm reluctant until either there's a vaccine OR some really effective treatments if one falls really ill and there's the hospital beds available to deliver those treatments. I've written off gigging during 2020 at this stage based on that but hope I'm wrong frown
Some major acts have already committed to cancelling/rescheduling all of their live performances until 2021. Ben Folds sent out an e-mail to his list to that effect yesterday, and he apparently took his cues from Taylor Swift.

Obviously, theaters and arenas are a different animal from bars and clubs, but I'm just trying to prepare myself. Right now, I'm missing playing music with other people more than I'm missing the gigs themselves, but that's based on my personal situation: 90% of my musical endeavors involve people I care about and am close to personally, and my gigging life isn't a major piece of my financial puzzle (though I sure could use the extra cash right now, of course...). I know it's a more trepidatious time for a lot of us, and I don't want to downplay that. Taylor Swift obviously has become wealthy as one of the top pop acts of the last decade; Ben Folds isn't quite at that rung of fame and fortune, but he's well-established and probably still has that Brick money coming in. A lot of bands I love who tour for a living are going to have a much harder time making a call like that.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
waygetter #3040984 04/28/20 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by waygetter
[quote=Moonglow] This will give rise to a new form, called social disdancing.

You better copyright that before someone else thinks of it.

Thinking my focus over the next year will be solo/duo/trio. Low key, quiet gigs in places that enforce distancing, prohibit dancing, and probably allow quiet percussion at most, no trap sets. That's likely to be my best case pre-vax musical world.

I've been playing solo piano gigs for several years, but it's time to up my game and stop sucking. That's going to take focus and practice, lots of it.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3040992 04/28/20 02:42 PM
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There is two things here that aren't really up to us. If the OK is given in NYS for the clubs to open will people really be willing to crowd around a stage and dance to a band. For a certain part of the crowd maybe but people are so fearful now I think a lot of damage has been done. The other part of it is how many clubs/wineries/venues/bars will fork out money for bands when it's going to take awhile for them to get up an running after the ban has lifted. We make a lot of money at the door in a few clubs but I think that too will change. As soon as the OK is given I will start rehearsals. I don't even remember what the band members look like it's been so long.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Adan #3040994 04/28/20 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
Originally Posted by waygetter
[quote=Moonglow] This will give rise to a new form, called social disdancing.

You better copyright that before someone else thinks of it.
I think it's closely related to a practice I developed in my teen years: "social mis-dancing."


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3040995 04/28/20 03:03 PM
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In my area, clubs etc.. are opening at 25% capacity.
My lead singer in the band also does a solo act. He has three shows this weekend. Fri, Sat, and a Sunday brunch show. All three places you had to make a reservation, and they are sold out.

Same with some other venues with live bands this weekend. Based on the metrics we keep, and things we are seeing, people want to get out and do things like this

As far as my band, our two May shows have been postponed and rescheduled already for later this year. Our next show is scheduled for June 13, and is still a go.
Everyone is onboard to resuming gigs.


David
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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3040996 04/28/20 03:08 PM
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I'm not sure what's going to happen here. There as been minimal impact on our county as the number of cases, and Brevard County Florida is actually quite large. Takes over an hour to drive from southern to northern border on the interstate. Plus, our main hospital system has been very proactive, bringing the needed supplies, PPE, and converting hospital rooms to isolation rooms in advance to the need. And a lot of the venues are outside.

But, the more popular venues are very close quarters, no way for the 6-feet rule. Two of the main ones that my bands play have stayed afloat by providing take out food and booze. The one closest to me has been giving out free meals to first responders.

As far as am I ready to start back playing, that is a really good question. There are two of us in my household, and BOTH of us are high risk. Cheryl has been battling cancer for 10 years, and I may need heart surgery in the near future. I may have to wait until the vaccine is out and the threat has been effectively neutralized.

I will say that I don't know that I will complain again about having too many gigs. Between May and June, I had a couple times where I was double booked, with an early gig, then a few hours later a late gig, in some instances with different bands. I was not really looking forward to those, but now, I would gladly end the day with sore fingertips and lower back.

And I am in a similar situation as Samuel. Yes, the extra money is nice, but it was basically paying our fuel costs for the month, and the extra expense of having to bring/buy my lunches. Well. so far we've paid less than $25 this month in gas, and since I'm working from home (which may become permanent) those expenses have dropped dramatically. I'm going to top off both vehicles Thursday, and see if we can go the entire month without getting gas, although at $1.66/gal, it won't take much.

And I agree, a very large part of my love of playing is not the gigs, it's playing with friends that challenge me musically.


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So God helped him and created woman.

Now everybody's got the blues."

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041000 04/28/20 03:44 PM
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^ I'm over in Orlando. The (so far) lack of impact on Florida (other than in the South) is a mystery to me. Considering theme parks were open until mid-march, and all the traffic through the airport, you'd think Central Florida would be a hotspot by now. And I know from having relatives in Brevard (I grew up in Merritt Island) that a lot of people didn't take this seriously until pretty late in the game. My mom's church for example, which is normally packed with mostly-older people...it was still going in mid-March. Not to mention a lot of New Yorkers coming down here to their winter homes to flee what is happening there. An older population in general. Something is odd about it. Not complaining, but no way I would have thought we'd have the low numbers of patients we have (my brother at CC Hospital says there is nothing happening.)

Edit: an example just from this past weekend. My wife and I own rental properties and sometimes they need fixes...she went to home depot to pick up something and just decided to go somewhere else or come back later....it was absolutely packed with people.

The only gigs I will even consider pre-miracle vaccine will be outdoor ones, and I expect I'll be booted out of the band by the time any of those happen if they are all ready to play and I refuse...so be it.

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041002 04/28/20 03:51 PM
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After 6 months to a year of no or few gigs, when this is in the rear view, alot of bands will have broken up. Some people who were on the edge of retirement will retire. Some people will have had to sell their axe to get by. And bands will be reforming with new line ups. Alot of formerly locked in gigs will be now up for grabs.

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041004 04/28/20 04:03 PM
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That's what I wonder about. Will people just give up and say "fu-- it's not worth waiting around for" I could see that. It is competitive around here, bands are almost team sports in smaller markets. I find people are communicating less even as band members. We are at least going to try to release a song. Even musicians aren't really communicating because there isn't really anything to talk about. A few of us happen to be closer than other members. I guess that happens but its just an interesting time now.

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041005 04/28/20 04:11 PM
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I’m riffing here, so see if this holds any ideas for you (and the rest of our industry)...

For those of us not in the top 1% of acts, gigging has been getting tougher for the last 20 years.

But the coronavirus is going to force just about every single one of our traditional venues to re-think their whole business plan. Restaurants, clubs, theatres, assisted living, casinos, whatever. For the next two years their business models don’t work. Half the number of patrons can’t keep their doors open.

Meanwhile, every entertainer, musician, dancer, ventriloquist, comedian, mind reader, etc. is out of work.

Can you figure out a way to bring half the number of patrons to a venue (at twice the price) by offering three times the entertainment value?

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041008 04/28/20 04:29 PM
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Social disdancing, hehe. Great work.

Man...I don't know. I live in Central mexico and while, Mexico hasn't been clobbered yet by the virus, we are braced for impact. Still, there is a significant percentage of the population--both Mexicans and ex-pats--who simply haven't been taking social distancing very seriously and it terrifies me. I bet if a club open up right now (it can't because the local gov't shut them down) with a dance band, it would be packed. And we'd see a big spike in infections soon.

But up in the states, it's not so wild, wild west. I think we're all going to be out of work in terms of live gigging for the most part. as many others have pointed out, we won't be the only subset of workers affected this way.

Has anyone here been making money off of tip jar/online concert stuff?

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041009 04/28/20 04:31 PM
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I certainly do not miss the sleep deprivation.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Jazzooo #3041018 04/28/20 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jazzooo
Has anyone here been making money off of tip jar/online concert stuff?

I have a couple of friends who do pretty OK with online tippng but I don't see it lasting in it's present form.
When we were gigging steadily, we had gigs up and down Whatcom/Skagit counties.
These clubs all had different clientele, based on walking/driving distance.

If you were promoting an online presence before this all hit then you might have a sufficiently diverse group of followers to thrive.
Most people don't go to the same club to hear the same performers 3 nights a week but that is exactly what is on offer with live streaming - except the "club" is your own personal living space.

One friend has gone from a peak of about 90 online followers for a live stream down to about 20-ish. He is an excellent singer, a fine strummer and knows over a thousand songs - takes requests.

But it doesn't have that drive, that atmosphere. It's great stuff but something is missing.

And now we are talking solo artists for the most part. All well and good but it simply is not the same "scene" as going to a club with a dance floor, pretty waitresses bringing your beverages, opportunities to broaden your social interactions, etc.

What's next? I am trying to figure that out. I've refrained from starting up a live stream while I re-invent myself. The live stream world does not need another "guy with guitar that knows songs." right now.
I have enough toys to generate a bigger sound, it's a matter of implementation and keeping it interesting. Too easy to "flatline" with loops, delays, etc. Will take some new multi-tasking approach to keep it fun and interesting. Maybe a late show? Maybe just once a week or every 2 weeks but make it compelling enough to generate excitement and keep a solid following?

Once the weather gets nicer up here there will be more options. We may even get a few of our annual outdoor gigs, I hope so, those are fun and much safer. We've played the same Harley dealer's summer sales events for a few years now - 2 times per summer minimum. They put up a HUGE stage so the 4 piece can easily maintain 6 feet distance comfortably. A couple of places we play move everything outdoors during summer and often those are duo gigs so space is not a problem there either. Seasonal, fall comes and everything changes. Gonna keep playing no matter what! Cheers, Kuru


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Adan #3041039 04/28/20 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
Originally Posted by waygetter
[quote=Moonglow] This will give rise to a new form, called social disdancing.

You better copyright that before someone else thinks of it.

.
Yeah. You never know. It might go viral.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Wastrel #3041040 04/28/20 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Wastrel
Originally Posted by Adan
Originally Posted by waygetter
[quote=Moonglow] This will give rise to a new form, called social disdancing.

You better copyright that before someone else thinks of it.

.
Yeah. You never know. It might go viral.
</thread>


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Adan #3041101 04/28/20 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
Everything that makes these places safer also makes them less profitable. Reopening in a somewhat safe way assumes a resetting of economic expectations by everyone involved.
Occupancy/capacity limits would seem to be a big one. I'm wondering if charging higher prices for admission, drinks, food, etc., would help offset the costs associated with maintaining a "safe" venue? Of course, this assumes customers will have the discretionary funds available to visit such establishments. Everyone may have to settle for less dough for awhile. Seems a lot of folks will be looking for gigs (e.g., bartenders, waitresses, cooks, musicians) and owners won't want to lose their businesses. Hopefully this will result in everyone willing to "deal" so all involved can find a sustainable balance point.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
samuelblupowitz #3041128 04/29/20 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by samuelblupowitz
Originally Posted by Wastrel
Originally Posted by Adan
Originally Posted by waygetter
[quote=Moonglow] This will give rise to a new form, called social disdancing.

You better copyright that before someone else thinks of it.

.
Yeah. You never know. It might go viral.
</thread>
when I wrote this I thought to myself, hey that's good, maybe I should copyright it. Then I googled it... too late, about 20,000 other folks thought of it first. Story of my life


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041213 04/29/20 03:13 PM
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I think people who believe the economy will come roaring back any time soon are in for a shock. It isn't just that people will be broke, it's also that we are all learning that it is possible to live without slaving at a job we don't love for money to buy crap we don't need. Eating out and movie viewing will survive in some form, but you're right--with reduced numbers of patrons, venue owners are going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. They CAN'T charge more, because consumers don't have it to spend.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041232 04/29/20 04:12 PM
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IMO, the same manner in which life slowed down to a crawl, normalcy will return eventually.

Human beings are social creatures by nature. They will not be kept 6 feet apart forever. In time, "social distancing" will be a 2020 buzzword.

I believe musicians and bands capable of either reinventing themselves and/or refreshing their deliverables will be fine on the other side of this situation. cool


PD

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041260 04/29/20 07:34 PM
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Yes I hear that but when? Whole tours, major festivals and people's summer seasons have been ruined.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041265 04/29/20 08:07 PM
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Thread # 14 on this forum re: how screwed musicians are. Many more to come . . .


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041268 04/29/20 08:30 PM
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This thread depresses me. I look forward to whenever we can put this behind us and live music can safely return. I had multiple months of gigs canceled and my city has canceled all of its major summer music-related events. Sad to also recall that I'm supposed to be at the NOLA Jazz Fest now with a couple of my forum friends.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041290 04/29/20 10:53 PM
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Geez, my intention was not for this to be another depressing/how screwed musicians are thread...although I certainly understand how pandemics (along with wars, natural disasters, famines, etc.) are inherently depressing. Conversely, I was hoping to generate thoughts as to what the music landscape might look like once we get the "all clear" and perhaps facilitate discussion of how musicians can best leverage themselves in that environment. Probably should have put more thought into my OP and spelled that out a little better, I was kind of spit-balling... We have a very historically in-demand product (perhaps the second-oldest profession?) and there will be more gigs for us to play on the other side of this respite. I love ProfD's post. Seems flexibility, adaptability, and creativity will be required attributes moving forward. The good news is we have that in spades.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041307 04/30/20 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonglow
Conversely, I was hoping to generate thoughts as to what the music landscape might look like once we get the "all clear" and perhaps facilitate discussion of how musicians can best leverage themselves in that environment.

Ok I'll give it a shot.

I don't think it will be an "all clear" - probably something more like "proceed with caution". Until there's a vaccine, audience sizes will be much smaller by law - whether it's a maximum crowd size of 50, seating reduced 50%... something.

We kind of had a dress rehearsal for this in my area during the Great Recession. Small nimble clubs survived, while larger more established rooms struggled or went out of business entirely.

And musicians had to adapt. There were a lot of singles and duos working the Gorge back then. Several of these rooms expanded to bands in recent years, but if the money is not there I'm kind of expecting things to go back to where they were 10 years ago.

Ok... my Facebook news feed is heavily loaded with club-goers, so fWIW. I'm seeing a HUGE pent-up demand to get out and party. Once anything reopens, it will not be a "let's tiptoe down to the club and check it out" kind of thing. In my area, everyone will flock downtown. All the clubs I work have security, and just like on big nights someone will be at the door limiting the number of people who can get in. There will be lines down the street, just like there is to get into Home Depot or Costco.

At first anyway. But that doesn't mean that clubs will be making money. They'll only be half full.

Edit: As soon as I posted this, Oregon put out a draft of what they're considering for restaurants and bars to reopen. No karaoke (there goes my Thurs gig - but it was off the table anyway), no counter seating, no pool, a 50% capacity limit, establishments must close at 10pm, establishments must keep a log of customers for contact tracing.

I still think there will be an initial surge, but it will be short lived. No one is going to put up with that for long.

Last edited by Bill H.; 04/30/20 03:21 AM. Reason: A sudden wake-up call to what we're going to experience
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041859 05/03/20 06:19 PM
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Welp...just got a message from our singer that an outdoor restaurant wants us back for May 15. It's normally my favorite gig, as it's 7-10 pm and the people there love music.

Supposedly they are doing things "safely" but I have my doubts.

It actually would be pretty safe for the band as I can load from the side to the outdoor stage without getting near anyone. And I'm in the back against a fence, nobody can get close to me if they wanted to especially if I take extra measures to block myself off. Two problems: the other band members...and --bathrooms. Those are inside and you have to wind your way through tables and the bathrooms themselves are pretty small. Chances that other patrons around here will be wearing masks I reckon is somewhere near 5%. The people going out this soon are going to be the people that thought this was all bullshit in the first place. I don't think I can go 6-10:30 (load-in and out) without a restroom break....

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041863 05/03/20 07:00 PM
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Just read an article that the On-Demand of the new Trolls movie has already made more money than original did in it's entire five month run. So other studios are looking to at maybe new world for movies is online. So seems concerts could go the same way why the expense of touring, dealing with weather, sold out in one city empty seats in others. Move to internet and get a global audience for the original show(s) and tickets for being in the audience for the live capture would be $$$ status symbol. Then more money for the On-Demand replays. Large venues would now have the built in lighting video streaming capabilities as part of venues package. Seems like a business model that would work.

Live music would continue in bars and similar small places and YouTube streaming will be the world of up and coming artists building a name for themselves.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Stokely #3041866 05/03/20 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Stokely
Two problems: the other band members...and --bathrooms. Those are inside and you have to wind your way through tables and the bathrooms themselves are pretty small. Chances that other patrons around here will be wearing masks I reckon is somewhere near 5%. The people going out this soon are going to be the people that thought this was all bullshit in the first place. I don't think I can go 6-10:30 (load-in and out) without a restroom break....

You can go in your car. Don't knock it until you try it.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Stokely #3041870 05/03/20 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Stokely
It actually would be pretty safe for the band as I can load from the side to the outdoor stage without getting near anyone. And I'm in the back against a fence, nobody can get close to me if they wanted to especially if I take extra measures to block myself off. Two problems: the other band members...and --bathrooms. Those are inside and you have to wind your way through tables and the bathrooms themselves are pretty small. Chances that other patrons around here will be wearing masks I reckon is somewhere near 5%. The people going out this soon are going to be the people that thought this was all bullshit in the first place. I don't think I can go 6-10:30 (load-in and out) without a restroom break....

If I don't want my kid to burn their hand on the stove, I can tell them they aren't allowed in the kitchen and they won't get burnt. The other option is to teach them not to touch the hot stove.

The 6 foot thing is a way to dumb things down for people too stupid to understand how viruses spread. You won't get the virus by being only 5' 11" away from another human. Your eyes, nose, or mouth have to come in contact with the virus. It doesn't hang around in the air, but does travel on droplets from a cough or sneeze from an infected person and can remain on surfaces that you might touch and then touch your eyes nose or mouth before you properly washed it off.

When you need to use the restrooms, put on a mask, walk to the bathroom with your hands in your pockets. Do your business, wash your hands thoroughly, go back to stage, take off the mask, set it aside, and immediately use so,e hand sanitizer. Remember that mask can be contaminated on the outside which is why you use the sanitizer after handling. You'll have a much lower chance of catching than you do by going to the grocery store, pumping, gas, opening your mail, etc.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041896 05/03/20 11:12 PM
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It’s been proven through high speed cameras that droplets or rather aerosols from coughing can propel a lot further than 6 feet. In fact it can go 6 metres. Therefore you can get the virus from 6 feet away.

This is a TED talk on the subject from a Prof at MIT



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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041903 05/03/20 11:51 PM
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Yep...and I don't think it has been conclusively shown that this thing is not airborne. I've seen a couple studies that suggest that indoors it can float around for hours.

My approach has been to avoid any risks I am not forced to take right now. Mainly for the two people I live with that are at high risk. I have not been to a store since early March. My current understanding is that breathing in this thing from another person near you is far more likely than picking it up from a surface (not sure there has been even one documented case of this happening).

If I get word that all the other patrons MUST wear masks--therefore protecting others--I might consider it. I think that is as likely to happen has seeing a squadron of hogs winging overhead....but we'll see. And of course even if the restaurant has the rule they'd have to be willing to enforce it. Cue the story I read today about employees taking abuse from shoppers at a store until finally the entire city relented and said masks were voluntary...WTF...

The bad has played many a gig without keys in the past--I had to lighten my gig schedule due to being a dad and all--and this will probably be the case for the near future. The downside of this of course is having set lists filled with guitar songs but hey there's a cost to everything grin

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Stokely #3041909 05/04/20 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Stokely
Yep...and I don't think it has been conclusively shown that this thing is not airborne. I've seen a couple studies that suggest that indoors it can float around for hours.

Yeah... and I'm really cautious about entering a small or crowded men's room because an infected person can spray the virus into the air when they flush the toilet.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexan...l-transmission-of-covid-19/#691cac0c6eb8

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041910 05/04/20 12:50 AM
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I'm optimistic that the scene will continue, albeit in a very different way. And I'm optimistic that this will occur even in the (to me quite likely) event that there isn't a vaccine. Maybe this time the extra funding may crack the ability to vaccinate for corona-type viruses, but I'm not banking on it. In spite of that we will find a way to do what we do.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041922 05/04/20 02:51 AM
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I can understand why, if music is how you put food on the table, you're going to take the risk and do it. If you're a pro musician, then most of your friends probably are as well and the playing field, so to speak, will be sort of level.

But if gigging is optional, then it's a more difficult calculation. I miss peforming. It's hugely significant source of meaning in my life. But for at least the next year, maybe more, we're all going to be asking whether we're subjecting ourselves to unnecessary risk.

Gigging life aside, I tend to move in circles of responsible, risk-conscious people who will take this very seriously. Should I be welcome in those social circles if I spend a couple nights a week in bars and clubs with people who (to paint with a broad brush) are not being as careful" I don't know, but it's an interesting question.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Adan #3041925 05/04/20 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Adan
But if gigging is optional, then it's a more difficult calculation. I miss peforming. It's hugely significant source of meaning in my life. But for at least the next year, maybe more, we're all going to be asking whether we're subjecting ourselves to unnecessary risk.

This exactly.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041955 05/04/20 01:30 PM
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As expected, everyone else was on-board to play. I emailed back saying I'm not comfortable doing so, especially living with two at-risk people. I don't think any of them have taken this as seriously as I have from the start, which is frankly figuring in my decision to not play. I doubt anyone in the band or at the place will be wearing masks.

If this was my living, I'd probably do it. Heck I may be in that dilemma soon if my work (foolishly IMO) requires all the work-from-home people back to the office (despite the fact that our jobs could be done efficiently from anywhere). As a plus, it's more money for the two members of the band that DO depend on gig money for a big chunk of their income (assuming they play it without me).

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Stokely #3041962 05/04/20 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Stokely
Yep...and I don't think it has been conclusively shown that this thing is not airborne. I've seen a couple studies that suggest that indoors it can float around for hours.

Hanging around on droplets for a long time in the right conditions is not the same thing as being airborne. If it is airborne then nothing we are doing will protect us. Nobody's house is completely air tight.

That said, you have to make your own decisions, and don't let me, or your band mates, or anybody else pressure you into doing anything that makes you uncomfortable!

The main point I was trying to make is to use real information as best a song can be acquired to make decisions as opposed to blindly following a set of guidelines. The guidelines in so,e cases can be unnecessary and in other cases can actually put you in MORE danger if you don't think about reality.

Like the 6 ft thing. As mentioned, it can travel more than 6 feet in certain circumstances. But if you're outdoor and somebody down wind of you sneezes away from you, not so much. 6 feet is an arbitrary number. It's not like there is so,e Magic force field at 6 feet. It's still a good guideline for the most part, but I'm going to take either greater or lesser precautions depending on if somebody is coughing or sneezing, indoor or outdoor, facing me or facing away, do I know them and who they have been around? I see people everywhere wearing masks without their noses covered which does nothing. Another example where checking the box can make things worse because they have a false sense of security without understanding what they are doing.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041981 05/04/20 03:46 PM
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All very good points. I do fear the 'six feet' thing a bit because I think many people will assume it's a magic suit of armor.

In the case of this gig, I'd have a fan behind me and I'm in the back with nothing but a fence behind me. Even if the band members are within a few feet they face (and sing) away from me so it's probably safer than them being 6-10 feet away but facing me with a breeze behind them. Even so yeah just not comfortable. They can easily still do the gig, more money for the drummer and guitarist, so it's still a win.

The studies I saw (one from Wuhan) about being airborne were indeed involving indoor conditions. I imagine air flow and humidity play a big part too. Humidity in particular might be a reason why Florida is doing relatively better than many other states despite people not adhering to quarantine.....though some other humid places have been hit pretty hard.

What's weird about the masks is that you see people wearing them incorrectly, or not wearing them, or...wearing them while driving alone in your car (????) I see that all the time with people driving in and out of my neighborhood.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3041994 05/04/20 04:42 PM
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Temperature is a factor as well as UV light. More than humidity, high temps seem to be a thing. Probably why you see such a big difference between the northeast and CA in addition to just things like population density and transportation like subway vs cars. But I did see someone post their OWN correlation using Excel of data loaded from CDC alongside things like daily average temperature and there was a distinct correlation. That's not proof - correlation does not equal causation, after all (a common mistake of people siting statistics), but it jives with some scientific studies. So even when they keep changing findings on how long it can last on a surface or in the air, my first question is "under what environmental conditions?" In a lab? Outside? Light? Dark? Temperature? Humidity? We need more data and more time to study. Part of the reason for the disparity in what we hear is that they haven't been studying it long enough yet to have conclusive data.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
eric #3041998 05/04/20 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by eric
This thread depresses me. I look forward to whenever we can put this behind us and live music can safely return. I had multiple months of gigs canceled and my city has canceled all of its major summer music-related events. Sad to also recall that I'm supposed to be at the NOLA Jazz Fest now with a couple of my forum friends.

Eric I had one cancel this morning and another doesn't know if they will be open. May 14th is the official opening day but only for certain businesses in NYS.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
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" I'm seeing a HUGE pent-up demand to get out and party. Once anything reopens, it will not be a "let's tiptoe down to the club and check it out" kind of thing. In my area, everyone will flock downtown. "


NO doubt. But I think when this happens, we will see a big surge in new infections and another, stricter shutdown will happen.

This isn't just going to go away because we're bored or broke. It doesn't care.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042008 05/04/20 05:30 PM
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For those who do choose to gig, please report on how things are going smile Just based on what I'm hearing locally, I think things will be really busy as people are sick and tired of being cooped up. A sense of caution is not strong in heavy drinkers and the young wink

Getting back to the original topic, I think creative businesses will figure out a way to survive. Any club that has an outdoor option should have a leg up. As an example, a local club that is located in an old Midas muffler shop is (from what I hear) planning on opening the garage bay doors and basically running things from their entryway and parking lot. Musicians who work there will have to be nimble, and play quieter with fewer members because of noise restrictions.

I'm still holding out hope for my outdoor DJ gig starting in July. I've worked this space for years and feel very comfortable about it. The only thing that gives me pause is restroom breaks, but I'll take a bottle with me to the storage area behind where I set up.

Those who say "no way!" have never been on a tour bus with no toilet and a tight schedule. laugh

Last edited by Bill H.; 05/05/20 03:25 PM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
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Originally Posted by Jazzooo
" I'm seeing a HUGE pent-up demand to get out and party. Once anything reopens, it will not be a "let's tiptoe down to the club and check it out" kind of thing. In my area, everyone will flock downtown. "


NO doubt. But I think when this happens, we will see a big surge in new infections and another, stricter shutdown will happen.

This isn't just going to go away because we're bored or broke. It doesn't care.
If you saw the pictures from Galveston and the beaches there, and the reports of people who were crowding restaurants and stores around Houston because the guvner opened up the state on the 1st, you would know you were right. A lot of people flocked. I'm not looking forward to the numbers we get two weeks from now.

I keep seeing people in this thread talking about coughing and sneezing, but a virus can spread because of the amount of material we eject just via talking. That's why asymptomatic people can spread it. They're just breathing and talking and it's coming out of them. Forget about singing. Have you ever seen a singer under the right light? Spray city. If that's not a good reason to avoid rehearsals, I don't know what is.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042200 05/05/20 09:08 PM
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I'm trying to stay optimistic, because after you have taken the precautions you can...what else can you do smile For example, I may get annoyed at seeing lots of (mostly) younger people out in places jammed together...if they end up getting this thing, and I'm still sequestered, then hopefully they will acquire some resistance which helps me too in the long run. Granted, we don't know if that's even the case at this point.

The mentality of the US--and look at this as a positive or a negative as you will--is not such that we can do a China or even a South Korea. There are already people protesting and getting upset over having to wear masks. Try going out in China *without* wearing one.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to have some fool, especially after a few drinks, try to get into my face BECAUSE I'm wearing a mask or he saw me using hand sanitizer. Not like we don't see belligerent behavior at places we play....I'm in no hurry to get back out there, even though I miss it.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042201 05/05/20 09:26 PM
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I was out get my walk in and ran in to my old high school buddy so we walked together for a bit. He never totally stopped teaching guitar lessons and today was smiles because some of his students that stopped because of the virus are starting back up. Like me he's in that older group that need to be careful and he's taking students and he doesn't need the money. He gets haircut by some woman who is going to peoples houses because the salon is closed, go to the store every couple days to have an excuse to be out and about. It's like he and others are going thru withdrawal and jonesing for a social fix. They're give a new meaning to STDs instead of Sexually Transmitted Disease it Socially Transmitted Disease.

I'm glad I've been a loner most my life and staying home and playing, listening to music works for me. In fact with the stay at home going on there is a wealth of great music, interviews, at home concerts, and musician hangs I'll miss when the virus is finally under control.

Stay home and stay safe all.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042225 05/06/20 12:08 AM
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Just got back from curbside pickup at Petsmart. I miscalculated the food supply for the large eating machine at my house, or would have done delivery. It was busy, saw 30 people or so go in and out, only half wearing masks.

On the way there drove through the next-door Lowe's parking lot--very busy for a weeknight.

My band now has a second gig back, I said no again. Our guitarist is picking up solo gigs left and right, which are likely places that can't afford full bands but still want live music.

My basketball email group seems raring to go--the minute the park is open a bunch of people will be back out there. Some of them have been playing at other places.

The restaurant right down the road from me looked crowded for a weekday...cinco de mayo maybe?

How Florida is not awash in cases by now needs to be researched....it is NOT because people are, as a whole, practicing social distancing.

Last edited by Stokely; 05/06/20 12:10 AM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Stokely #3042390 05/06/20 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Stokely
How Florida is not awash in cases by now needs to be researched....it is NOT because people are, as a whole, practicing social distancing.
It appears (at least to me) that there is somewhat of a meaningful correlation between higher mass transit use and higher COVID death rates, although it wouldn't explain why Louisiana and Michigan are so high in the list.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_high_transit_ridership


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042407 05/06/20 08:17 PM
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Louisiana was because of Mardi Gras, which was just as the virus was getting started here in the U.S., but before people really realized it. NYC is simply a crowded area with lots of people who commute there from the tri-state area thus infecting their friends and associates on Long Island, Connecticut, NJ, and the bedroom communities upstate.

Two factors seemed to help California, first was the early lockdown and b) was that they are a car culture and not as densely packed. Or, maybe they are pretty high on that list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density

International travel also hit NYC hard, since we're now finding that there were cases in France in December.

I do wonder why Michigan is up there.

Meanwhile, when will it be safe to hang around with singers?


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042454 05/07/20 12:03 AM
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re: International travel...I keep coming back to that for Orlando (where I am). Disney alone averages 50,000 visitors a day. Those parks shut down in the middle of March iirc, it was after my last gig March 10 which was packed with mostly-older people jammed together and dancing like usual. A bunch of those people in the parks are locals, I know a fair number of annual pass holders, but most are out of town and country; and of course all the people that work there and at the Orlando airport. We get A LOT of New Yorkers down here normally and once it hit there it was even singled out for something to be concerned with by our government here, as the snowbirds started fleeing NYC for their winter places. Cruise ships that dock at the coast are full of tourists too (enough that they are building a train to go from coast to the airport).

Coupled with the lax attitude it just doesn't add up. Orange county (orlando, disney) has had 30---30!---deaths, and I think that includes any nursing home deaths. Brevard county where the cruise ships dock and the beaches are has had way less cases and deaths....and I don't think that is just our lousy government fudging numbers either.

I guess we'll know eventually what is up.

Last edited by Stokely; 05/07/20 12:05 AM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Stokely #3042499 05/07/20 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Stokely
re: International travel...I keep coming back to that for Orlando (where I am). Disney alone averages 50,000 visitors a day. Those parks shut down in the middle of March iirc, it was after my last gig March 10 which was packed with mostly-older people jammed together and dancing like usual. A bunch of those people in the parks are locals, I know a fair number of annual pass holders, but most are out of town and country; and of course all the people that work there and at the Orlando airport. We get A LOT of New Yorkers down here normally and once it hit there it was even singled out for something to be concerned with by our government here, as the snowbirds started fleeing NYC for their winter places. Cruise ships that dock at the coast are full of tourists too (enough that they are building a train to go from coast to the airport).

Coupled with the lax attitude it just doesn't add up. Orange county (orlando, disney) has had 30---30!---deaths, and I think that includes any nursing home deaths. Brevard county where the cruise ships dock and the beaches are has had way less cases and deaths....and I don't think that is just our lousy government fudging numbers either.

I guess we'll know eventually what is up.

I agree nothing they are telling us make sense.

Example:
Social Distancing -> Flatten the Curve -> No Hospital Bottleneck -> No deaths due to lack of hospital beds

The problem is, anyone who knows anything about math knows that the reduction in reproduction factor from Social Distancing only delays the total number of infections. The total number in the end is the same.
This is born out by the fact that the experts' death models have gone from 65k to 85k to 135k deaths in the last few weeks. Do you see a pattern? I guarantee it will keep increasing.

So, in my mind people at low risk (under 50 w/ no comorbidities) have the same 10 year risk of dying from the disease whether they go to a concert or not, say, after June. Everyone will almost certainly be exposed.

This assumes no effective vaccine, which I believe is a very good assumption.

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042515 05/07/20 11:51 AM
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Not sure it doesn't make sense...I've seen graphs that show hospital ICU amounts vs virus cases both unchecked and flattened, and the flattening wasn't expected to have NO cases...it was supposed to lower the spike that took it (way) over the top of the hospital capability. And yes, that means it goes longer. None of this is an exact science, plan for the worst in case it happens and the data from overseas and NYC suggested it would. It would be very good to know exactly why it hasn't hit so hard in many other places.

Delaying is good though. Medicines get the headlines, but people in hospitals are reporting that treatments are evolving by the week. Placing patients prone, using nasal oxygen instead of going right to a ventilator, etc etc. I would rather get this later than sooner.

The death count was always going to increase, whether we got them all at once (which would have meant more people dying from non-CV problems since they couldn't be seen in a hospital...granted it means that to a point now if people are scared to go get their chest pain looked at etc). No expert I read or heard thought 65K or even 85K was realistic, the numbers were always higher than that based on the data available.

Many people at low risk--I'm 52 and pretty healthy, so not really low risk--live with people who are. I figure once its in your house, probably everyone is going to get it. The real problem for my household is what happens when the kids get back out there, and my work demands I go back to the office. My wife is recovering from chemo, my mom has health issues, both are living with me....we are trying to not bring it back to them. So for now we just take it week to week, it's very hard on the kids, other than the band I don't mind isolation! I have no intention of going to a movie theater, restaurant, concert or even a grocery store any time soon, perhaps for a year if I'm still working from home.

Last edited by Stokely; 05/07/20 11:54 AM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042517 05/07/20 12:30 PM
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My units at the University Hospital are gaining patients and going back to normal. units were down to 6 or 7 patients that normally handle 22 patients. Last month we were at 60% capacity which means the hospital was losing a ton of money every month. We have started elective surgeries again as of last week. Still i am hoping the band survives this. People are really depressed that are musicians I know.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Joe Muscara #3042523 05/07/20 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Muscara
Louisiana was because of Mardi Gras, which was just as the virus was getting started here in the U.S., but before people really realized it. NYC is simply a crowded area with lots of people who commute there from the tri-state area thus infecting their friends and associates on Long Island, Connecticut, NJ, and the bedroom communities upstate.

Two factors seemed to help California, first was the early lockdown and b) was that they are a car culture and not as densely packed. Or, maybe they are pretty high on that list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density

International travel also hit NYC hard, since we're now finding that there were cases in France in December.

I do wonder why Michigan is up there.

Meanwhile, when will it be safe to hang around with singers?

CA only locked down ONE WEEK before NY so I'm not buying that as a significant factor, but I DO believe that car culture vs subways/trains/cabs/etc played a huge part, which is why I was dumbfounded that only last week, NYC only now started shutting the subway down a couple hours a day to clean and disinfect. Baffling.

2 other things: Climate and outdoors.

There is mounting research suggesting less spread in warmer climates, shorter life of the virus when exposed to the UV light from the sun, less spread in open areas, not to mention the fact that our immune systems tend to be weakened when locked indoors without proper diet, exercise, and even regular exposure to things like viruses and bacterial, which is how our immune systems stay strong...building antibodies through exposure. Governor Cuomo announced yesterday that 2/3 of all new cases are people who were staying at home.

Everybody is well aware that viruses like cold and flu spread during the cold winter months when everybody is spending more time indoors. This is no different in that regard, in that it is a virus and spreads the same way. From day one I thought a stay at home order seemed counter intuitive. Not criticizing social distancing, avoiding groups, or many of the other measures, just the idea of closing parks and beaches and making people stay locked up at home.

As for MI, don't forget that Detroit is an international travel hub and climate in that state has been colder, not to mention strange rules like state residents can't go to their lake house, but an out of state resident can. So you can't leave a densely populated area to distance yourself if you are a resident, but somebody from out of state who may be bringing the virus in with them, can come in all day long to go to their lake house.


Dan

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042534 05/07/20 02:44 PM
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In my own calculations about how safe is it to gig, I keep coming back to the idea that the people who come to the gig will probably include folks who take the fewest precautions, and therefore are most likely to be spreaders. For a small gig I might have a room of 30 people and maybe 20 of them are wearing masks and obeying social distancing, another 9 are sorta kinda doing that, but then there's one dude who's stumbling around bumping into people and shouting in my ear to request a song. And you know he's probably behaving that way not just on that day, but all the time. In the places I play, I can totally see that happening because my music usually brings out some of life's losers.

I've always had a fondness for life's losers. I still do, just not sure I want to be physically close to them.

So we can talk about averages and trends all we want, but what I fear is that the kind of gigs I was playing 3 months ago will be much more dangerous than "normal" everyday life.

As I posted above, I'll be retraining my sights, maybe focusing on solo or duo restaurant gigs, places where dancing and heavy drinking are not expected.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Adan #3042535 05/07/20 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
but then there's one dude who's stumbling around bumping into people, and shouting in your ear while you're playing to request a song. And you know he's probably behaving that way not just on that day, but all the time.

Think of it this way: you finally have a justifiable, possibly legally defensible reason to wind up and kick him in the teeth. Isn't that worth the risk?


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042541 05/07/20 03:28 PM
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I can't see how the restaurant gig I had could be made safe for me unless the piano area I play was encased in plastic. People walk in front of the console piano. Tip jar on top.
I don't think sane people will be coming out to eat in an enclosed space til a good treatment drug is out. The political election year mantra seems to be die for the economy.
Live and let die. yeah right

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
J. Dan #3042544 05/07/20 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Dead
CA only locked down ONE WEEK before NY so I'm not buying that as a significant factor

Seems like small differences in timing can make a big difference in results.

Before the lockdowns, numbers were doubling every 2-3 days, so a week could easily be time for a factor of ten increase in infections.

From a recent New Yorker article comparing New York to Seattle, "Tom Frieden, the former C.D.C. director, has estimated that, if New York had started implementing stay-at-home orders ten days earlier than it did, it might have reduced COVID-19 deaths by fifty to eighty per cent." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/...ientists-take-the-lead-new-yorks-did-not

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Adan #3042659 05/08/20 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
In my own calculations about how safe is it to gig, I keep coming back to the idea that the people who come to the gig will probably include folks who take the fewest precautions, and therefore are most likely to be spreaders....but then there's one dude who's stumbling around bumping into people and shouting in my ear to request a song.
My concern, as well. The upper limit to a “safe” gig will be established by the person who behaves in the least-safe manner.

We still have a gig on the books for mid-June that might work. It’s a “beach party” at a lake in an upscale neighborhood, and we’ve played the gig in previous years. The band sets up under a decent-sized pavilion on top of a hill, so we can socially distance among ourselves. The neighborhood folks sit on lawn chairs, blankets, and picnic tables on the beach and grassy area down by the lake. The attendees are a good 200 feet away from us and have to trudge up the hill to get near us. For “comfort breaks” I’ve previously used the facilities at a semi-nearby clubhouse but there are some large bushes, evergreens, trees, etc., near the stage which could work for that purpose.

Returning to Adan’s post, there is one self-entitled drunk who always attends the party and tries to get at the band and has stumbled/sloshed around on stage. We have sort of put up with him at previous gigs, but if I decide to play (I’m still on the fence) my tolerance for this asshole will be solidly tested.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042672 05/08/20 02:56 PM
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My checklist then would be:

- must be outdoors, I always have my fan and hopefully a favorable breeze...have to know what the layout is and who would be around me and how close as well.

- can i load in and set up, and tear down and load out without getting near anyone

- is the "stage" big enough so that I can get far "enough" away from other band members and in a favorable direction (which favors me over them to be sure!)

- is it difficult for drunks and/or oblivious people to get near the band (some places I'm on the edge of an area and people can simply walk up to me. Not gonna fly...)

- where are the darn bathrooms and how would you get to them (or have a plan to pee in your car if it's nearby)

That's a pretty difficult set of requirements to meet. I'm the only one in our 5-member band that has even ONE of these, let alone all of them, and that is also a big factor in my decision. I'm probably the only one who would be wiping things down and using hand sanitizer.

Last edited by Stokely; 05/08/20 02:57 PM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042681 05/08/20 04:39 PM
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Maybe time to bring back TV shows like "In Concert" only do them as On Demand and maybe a new concept in virtual clubs that livestream music for a monthly fee. People have big screen TV and high end sound put it to good use for music. Have listening parties with friends and best part not a bunch of asshats holding up smartphones trying to record everything.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042687 05/08/20 04:58 PM
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Two things I've decided for myself, and that I will make excruciatingly clear to anyone who wants to hire me for gigs moving forward: 1) The only way I'll take a gig is if I can be absolutely guaranteed that the venue is observing common-sense safety precautions, the specific details of which will be spelled out on a per-gig basis. 2) If I get there and it turns out said precautions are NOT being observed, I will first get video documentation of said lack of observance, and then get right back in my car and head home, and whoever booked me will still be on the hook for 100% of the $$ we agreed on. If they don't want to pay up, I will call them out from the friggin' rooftops and shame the hell out of them all over social media.

Will this decrease the number of gigs I'm likely to get? Yup. Am I good with that? Yup.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042693 05/08/20 05:11 PM
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I recently watched an episode of Mad Money with Jim Cramer and he discussed this from the angle of owning two restaurants - which he does - both in NYC and both closed for now.

He used standards in place in Tennessee to make his point. If you must reduce the capacity of your venue by having fewer tables spread farther apart, fewer (if any) seats at the bar, lower maximum capacities, etc. to protect people from themselves - then re-opening your restaurant is a sure-fire way to go out of business in short order.

Most of the places I used to gig were hand to mouth, month to month or they were doing well because they could pack a crowd in the building and sell lots of drinks and/or food.

It is a Peak Hours pay for Weak Hours deal.
The size of your facility will not magically grow because you need a "safe" capacity to generate enough income.
Pack them in or pack it up.

Until there is a proven, effective vaccine available, we will not be getting back to "normal." It is possible we will never get back to "normal", certainly many establishments will not make it to the other end of this situation. Sorry for the bummer post but it seems pretty real world to me. Cheers, Kuru


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
KuruPrionz #3042709 05/08/20 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
If you must reduce the capacity of your venue by having fewer tables spread farther apart, fewer (if any) seats at the bar, lower maximum capacities, etc. to protect people from themselves - then re-opening your restaurant is a sure-fire way to go out of business in short order. . . . Most of the places I used to gig were hand to mouth, month to month or they were doing well because they could pack a crowd in the building and sell lots of drinks and/or food. . . . Pack them in or pack it up.
I've definitely been considering this about a lot of the venues I play as well (though I've more than once joked about how grateful I'd be to play a show to 25% capacity, as I've certainly played to less...). I get the sense that one of the reasons certain folks in leadership positions are still pushing to reopen "for the economy" is so that they're not on the hook when the businesses in their jurisdictions struggle to survive; it's something you can write off as "the owners couldn't hack it" rather than "the state is responsible for maintaining standards that serve the health of the community." I want to have places to play, but not as a way to offload getting sick and dying into MY problem instead of a collective problem.

I was watching an interview with comedian Patton Oswalt the other day, and he talked about how when the "comedy boom" ended in the late 80s/early 90s, and a lot of the very active clubs from the 80s shut down, many comedians decided to start their own rooms and host their own open mics in any space that would take them. Live music has a lot more logistics and gear to be concerned with than standup comedy, but I'm trying to approach the uncertain future with that mindset. Since I work in higher ed, there's a lot of talk about "blended" learning environments during the transition months, with some smaller, less frequent face-to-face contact with wider berths and smaller classes, complemented by online/asynchronous work. If we get to a point where it's safe to get together with four or five bandmates and maybe a small invited audience of friends, then combine that with the livestreaming skills we've all been developing out of necessity, that would relieve some of the isolation and tension of not performing together, without having to go full tilt "everyone haul your gear into the packed bar with no boundaries between the performers and patrons and hope for the best."

But I think making testing widely available is a linchpin for safety in any of these scenarios; my county in central New York State is doing pretty well, but it seems like it's still very hard to get tested in the United States compared to other countries.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042713 05/08/20 06:28 PM
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Taking a phrase from another issue and changing it for current world Are you dying to work or working to die, if you work involve being around a lot of people especially any sort of retail or food service. It really is a Catch-22 going back to work to deal with personal and countries economic health or staying in place with limited work by delivery and food service industries for the health of the people. You can see this Catch-22 being address by different countries deciding on whether to help their citizens or help their economy. Some are saying this is why there is big government to step in and help the people in times of crisis and we'll worried about the the cost and getting economy back together after the crisis. Others the big government is only concerned with the economy and view citizens dying as a cost of doing business. Then some countries trying to walk a tightrope trying to do both.

This pandemic is pulling the curtain back and exposing the real economic condition of countries around the globe and how different countries value their citizens. The aftermath of this crisis is going to be a very different world and who is viewed as global leaders.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042719 05/08/20 07:01 PM
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A vaccine is the only thing that will rescue our multi-billion dollar tourism industry – so I doubt there will be any significant gigs anyway – but right now I feel that even if some of these opportunities came back sooner I wouldn't be interested.

After all, it's only music and I wonder who I'm trying to impress for a couple hundred bucks anyway.

I'll wait for the all-clear.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
drawback #3042721 05/08/20 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by drawback
A vaccine is the only thing that will rescue our multi-billion dollar tourism industry – so I doubt there will be any significant gigs anyway – but right now I feel that even if some of these opportunities came back sooner I wouldn't be interested.

After all, it's only music and I wonder who I'm trying to impress for a couple hundred bucks anyway.

I'll wait for the all-clear.
Just a bit south of you in the states and on the mainland.

We've had quite a few outdoor gigs in summer, promotions for a Harley Davidson dealer, music festivals, private parties etc.
I know some of those are gone this summer but we may still have one or two on the books, you?

I'm totally with you on the risk/reward equation. It is NOT worth it right now!!! Cheers, Kuru


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042723 05/08/20 07:20 PM
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Alot of young bands that couldnt break into some bigger clubs before, will now get a chance to fill a void or two. And 20 yrs old already dont care about health as evidenced by the risky behavior they can be known for so a virus will be of no concern for them. If you wait too long you could find your scene is gone and you've been forcibly retired. Besides, the Gov of New York said yesterday in a televised news conference that 66% of the cases that the hospital reported were infected while quarantined at home. Being in is worse than being out.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
KuruPrionz #3042727 05/08/20 07:38 PM
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I watch Cramer every day as well. In addition to what you wrote he also said the bar part of any establishment is closed because nobody wants to deal with unruly drunks. That's really the last nail in the coffin of restaurant/bar gigs. Jon Taffer basically says the same thing.

Overall I'm still fairly optimistic about how this thing will roll out as far as restarting the economy, getting people back to work, being able to go to parks and beaches. But that has nothing to do with gigs we're talking about. I keep pushing back the date for gigging. I have several bookings for the Christmas and New Years time. Not only do I not know if they're still on, I also don't know if I'm interested is doing them anyway. NYE especially. It s total cramped zoo in a bar on Catalina Island with people standing right next to me. Another annual gig on the island is a few days before NYE in a beautiful house overlooking Avalon. The bad news for that is it's in her living room with a nice old tall upright next to the wall and the guests are also right on top of me. Right now there's no way in hell I would consider such a gig and considering the lady of the house and most of her guests are in their 60's and 70's she won't have that party this year unless she and her friends are comfortable with it just like all of us think here. Now that I've writing this out and thinking about it, who am I kidding, those gigs are gone. Same for several July 4th gigs too. Everything is gone until further notice.

Bob


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
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Originally Posted by Jr. Deluxe
Alot of young bands that couldnt break into some bigger clubs before, will now get a chance to fill a void or two. And 20 yrs old already dont care about health as evidenced by the risky behavior they can be known for so a virus will be of no concern for them. If you wait too long you could find your scene is gone and you've been forcibly retired. Besides, the Gov of New York said yesterday in a televised news conference that 66% of the cases that the hospital reported were infected while quarantined at home. Being in is worse than being out.

I saw that quote as well...I don't know how someone who is quarantined at home could catch a disease unless
1) it's airborne and in the central air system that is so many buildings in NYC
2) they aren't quarantined fully...meaning they went out to get their mail in a common area, people came to deliver stuff etc and gave it to them, etc
3) They already had it from before they quarantined....
4) Not sure how accurate the statement is in the first place, what did he base that on?

People sequestered at home shouldn't be getting sick, they have to be getting exposed. The virus isn't magical.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Jr. Deluxe #3042833 05/09/20 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Jr. Deluxe
the Gov of New York said yesterday in a televised news conference that 66% of the cases that the hospital reported were infected while quarantined at home. Being in is worse than being out.


It's not better to be out. The 66% were not "quaranteed" -- they were just "staying at home". The source of infection was most likely visitors or from surfaces of things being brought into their homes. Cuomo said the survey results were 'surprising' but showed people were not making the right personal choices even when at home.

Last edited by Cabo; 05/09/20 03:32 PM.

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042861 05/09/20 06:05 PM
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The more I think about it, the more certain I am that there will be no live performances in venues other than solo or duo acts in outdoor venues for the foreseeable future. Our careers as live performers are probably over. I'm grateful that i have so many memories of cool and even life-changing gigs. But that's over.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042872 05/09/20 07:43 PM
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I see the immediate future yes solo, duo, and trio if enough space gigs will be bulk of gigs, but heading down the road medical science will get a handle on this virus like it has other in the past and people will be able to crowd around bars and stages again. The big difference with this virus is it hit so fast and spread equally as fast that it affected the whole world at once. To me the big problem is trying to rush back to how things were too fast. People aren't looking at the past pandemics and how long they lasted and even those the negative when some tried to get back to normal too fast. It's going to take a lot on the part of both people and governments to accept this is going to take awhile and makes adjustments to benefit all and get thru it and wait for science to do it's thing.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042894 05/09/20 09:42 PM
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How optimistic are people that when the next one hits, "we" will have learned anything? I'm not very. Collectively the US at least hasn't handled this well, at all. Freedom protests, it's right out of Monty Python. Every year that goes by "we" get more anti-science and more into pseudo-science. Just look at that "plandemic" garbage.

Unfortunately the chances of more of these happening keep increasing. Humans are spreading into the environments where the host animals live, and climate change doesn't help at all.

I agree that the trend will be for smaller acts. Tracks will be used more than ever now, as there will be a lot of bands like mine where at least one member won't want to play while the others do. Just do the karaoke thing and presto, a "band".

Last edited by Stokely; 05/09/20 09:43 PM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Jr. Deluxe #3042897 05/09/20 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Jr. Deluxe
Besides, the Gov of New York said yesterday in a televised news conference that 66% of the cases that the hospital reported were infected while quarantined at home.

I tried really hard to find the source for that, and as far as I can tell there's no released report. All sources just refer back to the press conference. So all we have is Cuomo talking briefly over one slide: https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/po...-cuomo-press-conference-coronavirus.html

There's nothing about "quarantined". It's just a slide that says "source of admission", with the choices being "Assisted Living", "Congregate" (I believe this is other sorts of group housing), "Home", "Homeless", "Jail/Prison", "Nursing Home", and "Other".

So I think it's literally just asking hospitals where their COVID-19 patients came from when they were admitted. Unsurprisingly, most of them came from homes.

This says nothing about whether they or others in their household were observing social distancing.

They could be essential workers or their family, for example.

Last edited by bfields; 05/09/20 10:04 PM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
bfields #3042901 05/09/20 10:35 PM
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Very good catch there. Unfortunately the headlines and stories being run didn't go into as much depth as you did, the impression for the reader was that people were getting sick at home. Just another reminder that it's on all of us to sort through fake or misleading news, and that a lot of news articles are actually reporting on someone else's reporting, or taking a bit of a press conference out of context.

Last edited by Stokely; 05/09/20 10:36 PM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
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I think things will differ regionally. Seems like from what I hear on here anyway, that live music was practically a thing of the past on the coasts anyway. Here in the Midwest it's been strong and people are really itching for it. It may not return to places like NYC and L.A., but I'm sure it'll bounce back around here. Technically concerts can resume next week and I'm already seeing bands start to promote gigs as they start to get book. One band that I've filled in with before has an outdoor concert coming up next weekend. I've played that one before and there were probably a few thousand people there. Should be interesting to see how many show up for this one so soon coming out of stay-at-home orders for the state (my area is still under an order).


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
KuruPrionz #3042945 05/10/20 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
....If you must reduce the capacity of your venue by having fewer tables spread farther apart, fewer (if any) seats at the bar, lower maximum capacities, etc. to protect people from themselves - then re-opening your restaurant is a sure-fire way to go out of business in short order.

Most of the places I used to gig were hand to mouth, month to month or they were doing well because they could pack a crowd in the building and sell lots of drinks and/or food.

It is a Peak Hours pay for Weak Hours deal.
The size of your facility will not magically grow because you need a "safe" capacity to generate enough income.
Pack them in or pack it up....
This is consistent with what the manager of a large club here in Northwest Indiana advised one of my bandmates. He said that he can’t be profitable operating at 50% or 75% capacity so he is going to remain closed until “Phase 5” (mid-July) of our state’s re-opening plan, at which time the state is projected to be fully open.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042947 05/10/20 04:21 AM
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It will come back in waves washing over different geographies at different times, with possibly a big wave covering everything next fall/winter. Each governmental jurisdiction will have its own criteria for when a wave gets bad enough to close some activities again. Music venues, being both high exposure and non-essential, will always be among the first to close. Some of use will be shut out of gigs while others are picking up, guaranteeing we'll have something to chat about for at least the next year. I'm trying to imagine how tough this will be for touring acts. Which ones are resilient enough to take the financial risk? What will promotors do, buy Covid insurance?


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
J. Dan #3042949 05/10/20 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by J. Dead
I think things will differ regionally. Seems like from what I hear on here anyway, that live music was practically a thing of the past on the coasts anyway
From what I've heard online, everyone between the coasts is either in jail or a redneck product of incestuous immigrants from Viking territory.
Jesus Christ, I've never heard of a more misinformed statement than live music being a thing of the past on the coasts smile Clearly hasn't been out of the St. Louis area in quite a while.

Last edited by JazzPiano88; 05/10/20 04:32 AM.

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
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we need to take a deep breath here


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
JazzPiano88 #3042971 05/10/20 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JazzPiano88
Originally Posted by J. Dead
I think things will differ regionally. Seems like from what I hear on here anyway, that live music was practically a thing of the past on the coasts anyway
From what I've heard online, everyone between the coasts is either in jail or a redneck product of incestuous immigrants from Viking territory.
Jesus Christ, I've never heard of a more misinformed statement than live music being a thing of the past on the coasts smile Clearly hasn't been out of the St. Louis area in quite a while.

Just going by what has regularly been reported on here that gigs dried up in favor of DJ's and nobody wants to see bands. When I said the scene was good around here, the response was that it's because we're behind the times and it will catch up with us. So if I'm misinformed, this was the source.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042988 05/10/20 02:11 PM
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I'm suddenly aware of how much time we (and me, especially) have wasted on this forum talking about the Coronavirus, ignoring the real threat to live music . . . DJs. DJs, not the virus, are the reason why there hasn't been a live music set played between Tijuana and Bellingham since 2013.

Let's not waste any more time or good will bickering about who's suffering more from the virus. Let's focus on retaking music venues back from DJs. Everyone needs to just stay home until they die out. Live music will be reintroduced in phases, starting with hand drums played 6 feet apart in parks and at beaches.

OK, I apologize to any DJs we have on here, but I figure you're used to taking some ribbing and besides, you get the last laugh since, like, I mean, you have all the gigs.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043008 05/10/20 04:54 PM
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Look at the bright side if venues reopen and require all audience members to maintain two meters from each other them maybe they will finally shut the #$%^ up and listen.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043026 05/10/20 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
OK, I apologize to any DJs we have on here, but I figure you're used to taking some ribbing and besides, you get the last laugh since, like, I mean, you have all the gigs.

No offense taken laugh My DJ phase is more of a footnote to a lifetime of playing keys than anything else. I kind of fell into it by accident, and immediately became addicted to it's energy and vibe - something I hadn't felt since I was a much younger man.

And we don't have all the gigs anyway. Around here live music has been gradually regaining popularity over the last decade - to the point where live music rooms greatly outnumber DJ rooms. Its the type of rooms that has changed since the old days. Many are kind of like updated supper clubs, where table dining is integrated into drinking and dancing. Quality vocals and musicianship are even more of a must than before - combined with a conversational approach to stage presence rather than the "How's everybody doin' tonight!" bar band stuff.

And we do have a bar band room locally! I was amazed... a brewpub got a liquor license and converted itself into a bar band room a couple of years ago - complete with large stage, decent sound system with 18" subs, and lights. And it was working. I was in there for a thrash concert last winter, and the place was packed. But that's the thing... the owner has been trying to figure out how to update the old bar band formula into something that works today, and most of the bands have something unique or distinctive going on.

Sorry for going a little off topic. It's Sunday, and rather than trying to wake up from a long Saturday night I'm wide awake and bored.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
J. Dan #3043102 05/11/20 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by J. Dead
Originally Posted by JazzPiano88
Originally Posted by J. Dead
I think things will differ regionally. Seems like from what I hear on here anyway, that live music was practically a thing of the past on the coasts anyway
From what I've heard online, everyone between the coasts is either in jail or a redneck product of incestuous immigrants from Viking territory.
Jesus Christ, I've never heard of a more misinformed statement than live music being a thing of the past on the coasts smile Clearly hasn't been out of the St. Louis area in quite a while.

Just going by what has regularly been reported on here that gigs dried up in favor of DJ's and nobody wants to see bands. When I said the scene was good around here, the response was that it's because we're behind the times and it will catch up with us. So if I'm misinformed, this was the source.

Sorry for flying off the handle JDan. I apologize.

I just know that there were tons of venues offering live music on the coasts before the virus hit.

At the risk of generalization, I just think that the use of anecdotal info from KC members of trends on the death of live music on the coasts probably isn't a reliable indicator of the ground truth.
I'm open to being wrong too. In the end it will be fascinating to compare predictions versus reality, although the historians will spin it to any way that justifies their world view.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
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About New York and subways. They were probably a factor but not the main factor from what I've heard on the news and just now read. I heard on a news show the other day and I don't remember which one, Brooklyn and Queens are now Chinese with large majorities. I'm going, what?? I've never been to NY but I've always thought those areas were mostly Italian but then what do I know except what I see in movies and Law and Order? I did some checking and yes, it seems that is true. From Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatowns_in_Brooklyn

And then this is from a year about all the great Chinese restaurants in NY's NINE Chinatowns:

https://ny.eater.com/2019/2/25/1823...ast-village-little-neck-forest-hills-nyc

To me this explains why NY got hit so hard and it ties into what I wrote here 6 weeks ago about hundreds of thousands of Chinese visitors coming to NY from Europe before Trump banned travel from there. I just never heard anything about these NY Boroughs being so heavily. Comparing this to LA is no comparison. There is no huge Chinese areas in LA. We went to the LA Chinatown to eat last year and it's the same triangular roughly 8 to 10 block area that's been there for 40 years with a population of about 36,000. It's fun to visit and eat there every once in a while.

Bob


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043113 05/11/20 04:06 AM
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Seeing in person (driving by) and hearing about all the restaurants opening back up (and being packed) around the country...well, it makes me pretty angry. I don't care if people want to risk themselves...but we are all in this together. Regardless, all I can do is shelter in place. I keep reading in interviews: "I don't want to give in to fear'. So that's why you go into a packed store or restaurant without a mask. I wonder if these same people wade into the surf with a cut on their leg, or raise high their golf club in a thunderstorm a la Caddyshack....can't give in to fear, after all. And of course you have to point out that anyone staying at home listening to the science is a ****ing coward. I feel like hitting these people with a socially-distant-length stick until all the freedom runs out of them.

I really hope those people are right and their gamble pays off, because it means this (for whatever reason) is turning out different than the experts and scientists are mostly saying. I'll put up with the smarmy I'll told you sos afterward. Even though it would be like someone bragging that see, they didn't need any car insurance after all...no tickets and no accidents, don't you feel stupid for paying all that money.

In the meantime, these next three weeks are a REALLY GOOD TIME to tighten up sheltering at home while we see what the numbers look like. One way or another with all the freedom-loving risk takers out there I guess we'll know just how dangerous this is (just in case we didn't already know). I don't trust the Florida government to give truthful numbers AT ALL, but I do have several people I know that work in hospitals, so at least for the local area I'll get a pretty good idea.

Last edited by Stokely; 05/11/20 04:10 AM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Stokely #3043117 05/11/20 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Stokely
Seeing in person (driving by) and hearing about all the restaurants opening back up (and being packed) around the country...well, it makes me pretty angry. I don't care if people want to risk themselves...but we are all in this together. Regardless, all I can do is shelter in place. I keep reading in interviews: "I don't want to give in to fear'. So that's why you go into a packed store or restaurant without a mask. I wonder if these same people wade into the surf with a cut on their leg, or raise high their golf club in a thunderstorm a la Caddyshack....can't give in to fear, after all. And of course you have to point out that anyone staying at home listening to the science is a ****ing coward. I feel like hitting these people with a socially-distant-length stick until all the freedom runs out of them.

I really hope those people are right and their gamble pays off, because it means this (for whatever reason) is turning out different than the experts and scientists are mostly saying. I'll put up with the smarmy I'll told you sos afterward. Even though it would be like someone bragging that see, they didn't need any car insurance after all...no tickets and no accidents, don't you feel stupid for paying all that money.

In the meantime, these next three weeks are a REALLY GOOD TIME to tighten up sheltering at home while we see what the numbers look like. One way or another with all the freedom-loving risk takers out there I guess we'll know just how dangerous this is (just in case we didn't already know). I don't trust the Florida government to give truthful numbers AT ALL, but I do have several people I know that work in hospitals, so at least for the local area I'll get a pretty good idea.

These data from New York Times seem to be reliable numbers that are consistent with the CDC website. I've been tracking them (my state and county) and the numbers between this, CDC and Newspapers are very consistent.
They are cumulative statistics by date, so if you have Excel and can filter the State or County you can easily plot the cumulative cases, death count, and cases per day.

NYT Case Data

So you look at any state or your local area to see if the case count is increasing, decreasing... etc. I find that inserting a column to compute the 5 day moving average of cases per day is pretty helpful as the data are very noisy and subject to incredibly high measurement errors.

As a final editorial comment, the baseline "Shelter in Place" advice by the government is questionable, We are accepting unverified data and guidelines with zero scientifically accepted information. The experts are going by the seat of their pants and have killed the economy on a hunch.
Canada now has a study coming that indicates the Virus is transmitted primarily by droplets from surfaces and not airborne. The fact that no one knows anything about this virus and yet we've completely destroyed the world economy without any solid science is going to be the take away when history is written.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
JazzPiano88 #3043119 05/11/20 05:21 AM
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[quote=JazzPiano88][/quote]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8304781/Coronavirus-enter-body-eyes.html

This tells a different tale. There are many different tales and it is probable that some truth exists in all of them.

If and when more scientists agree on particular aspects, those aspects will become more believable. As it stands now, we do not know enough to confirm anything.
One can choose to believe one thing over another but that is all it amounts to until we have solid proof, a belief.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
KuruPrionz #3043121 05/11/20 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
Originally Posted by JazzPiano88

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8304781/Coronavirus-enter-body-eyes.html

This tells a different tale. There are many different tales and it is probable that some truth exists in all of them.

If and when more scientists agree on particular aspects, those aspects will become more believable. As it stands now, we do not know enough to confirm anything.
One can choose to believe one thing over another but that is all it amounts to until we have solid proof, a belief.

Well stated. All the more argument that it has made zero sense to completely Nuke the economy and send everyone into the next depression based on zero scientific facts or agreement. Ebola and bleeding out with 50% death I could understand, but this has too many unknowns.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
JazzPiano88 #3043126 05/11/20 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JazzPiano88
Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
Originally Posted by JazzPiano88

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8304781/Coronavirus-enter-body-eyes.html

This tells a different tale. There are many different tales and it is probable that some truth exists in all of them.

If and when more scientists agree on particular aspects, those aspects will become more believable. As it stands now, we do not know enough to confirm anything.
One can choose to believe one thing over another but that is all it amounts to until we have solid proof, a belief.

Well stated. All the more argument that it has made zero sense to completely Nuke the economy and send everyone into the next depression based on zero scientific facts or agreement. Ebola and bleeding out with 50% death I could understand, but this has too many unknowns.

Nearly 80,000 dead is not an unknown.

You seem determined to proselytize a political agenda. I believe that is discouraged on these forums, there are plenty of other places to discuss such things.
It could also be taken as religious if somebody wants to discuss the value of human life vs money.
A discussion as to whether a nation has wealth when it cannot pay it's debts could rear it's head as well and then we are into full on politcal/religious discourse.

At which point beliefs kick in and facts become inconveniences. There are better places for these topics.

I will admit that these sorts of threads are fraught with peril in that regard.
I will continue to avoid infection. We will know more in a few months. I fully expect the death toll to be much higher than it is now, much higher.
I am hoping it does not include myself or my loved ones. Too many are gone already.

Having a job when you are dead seems a bit futile, no?


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043129 05/11/20 06:33 AM
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Either folks steer the discussion back to the original topic or this thread is toast. The original topic was actually useful to many of us. More agitating about decisions made at the political level is not.

Think micro, not macro.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
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Just read today that Nord Lead sales have dropped - first time in 80 years apparently.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Adan #3043148 05/11/20 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
Either folks steer the discussion back to the original topic or this thread is toast. The original topic was actually useful to many of us. More agitating about decisions made at the political level is not.

Think micro, not macro.
+1

Thanks, Adan.

Just this weekend my band was discussing the possibility of doing a live/streaming show with full production at a decent-sized venue where we have played a few times. Incorporate a virtual tip jar to hopefully at least break even, and keep both of our entities relevant until things open up. I know this has been discussed in other threads, just trying to get things semi-back on track...


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
JazzPiano88 #3043151 05/11/20 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JazzPiano88
Canada now has a study coming that indicates the Virus is transmitted primarily by droplets from surfaces and not airborne.

Do you have a source for that? I tried looking, and couldn't find anything.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043156 05/11/20 02:23 PM
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The economic damage isn't all about emergency orders. There's plenty of evidence that places were starting to lose business even before they went into affect:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/upshot/pandemic-economy-government-orders.html

My extremely modest place in the foodchain is a couple bands that can pack a bar with our (no longer young) friends as long as we're only playing once or twice a year. Some of those bars have schedules full of similar bands. I don't see many of our friends being willing to do that now, and even if our governor allowed it, I don't see how such a venue could get back to business as normal absent some dramatic improvement in the public health outlook.

I hear all the anecdotes about people ignoring social distancing. So depending on the location, maybe there's a demographic out there that can support a few venues. I'm skeptical whether that business would be sustainable if their area sees a serious new wave of infections.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043160 05/11/20 02:36 PM
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At the least, that question will be at least somewhat answered over the next few weeks in my area--my band is doing at least two shows (without me) and I'm sure I'll hear all about it and see pics and videos from it. We'll be able to see if the sudden "re-opening" causes an uptick in numbers, or not. Part of me wants these bars and clubs to do as well as possible, I know some of the ownership and staff and this really sucks for them. At the same time, it feels wrong of me to pack people in, not sure how many precautions will be taken there. As much as I want to play, it's a win because a couple of the other members can use my share a lot more than I can.

There are now no cases at all at my brother's hospital and I think that's pretty much the norm in the central florida area.

If we do get a big uptick, that will be a wake-up call. And if there isn't, that will tell us a lot as well hopefully. It means something is affecting this virus in some areas despite people quarantining. I've seen some interesting vitamin D studies for example. Of course it's all matters of degree, as others have noted, packed trains in NYC might have just been so much more exposure that it accounts for the explosion there. Florida may just get a steady stream of this for months and years.

I don't agree that the epidemiologists are all over the map, or that they are just guessing based on hunches. We can agree to disagree on that. I'm a person who plans for the worst and hopes for the best, I'm not waiting around for 100% confirmation that something is dangerous. I don't buy car insurance because I know I'll get in an accident.

Last edited by Stokely; 05/11/20 02:42 PM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
bfields #3043165 05/11/20 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bfields
The economic damage isn't all about emergency orders. There's plenty of evidence that places were starting to lose business even before they went into affect:

Good point. It's fantasy to think all we need is for government to get out of the way.

Where I live and where some of my gigs are, in Marin County, rationality and caution prevail. That has a lot to do with why I live here but I have to acknowledge it's going to mean a slower return for the music scene.

What we do have here is wineries, lots of them within an hour's drive. Perfect venues for music and social distancing. I'll be trying to work that angle but it might be very competitive.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043171 05/11/20 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonglow
I’m wondering how music venues will operate, say within the 6-12 months immediately after stay-at-home restrictions are lifted? Will there be an occupancy limit? Will there be a higher cover charge to offset lower customer numbers (and to pay the band)? More solo/duo acts and fewer bands? Will they take your temperature at the door? Will tables/occupants have to remain six feet apart? Will folks be allowed to dance? What about the lavatories (thinking of the typical nightclub john...yuck)? Will bouncers now be the social distance police? Just some random thoughts...
Bringing things back to the topic:

In Ohio, restaurants and bars are open for outdoor seating this week (5/15) and indoor seating next week (5/21). I thought there was hope to resume gigging as early as next weekend, since the upcoming venues we have booked have raised stages and can separate the band from the audience, but the policy doesn't allow it:

“The open congregate areas in restaurants and bars that are not necessary for the preparation and service of food or beverages (billiards, card playing, pinball games, video games, arcade games, dancing, entertainment) shall remain closed.”

I think the following policy page addresses Ohio's take on some of the questions @Moonglow posed:
Responsible Restart Ohio - Restaurants & Bars

Even if bands were allowed, I'm not sure how running at 25%-50% of capacity will allow restaurants and bars to stay open, let alone pay a band when there is not enough space available to accommodate the larger crowd the band would be expected to draw. I'm speaking from the perspective of a 6-piece cover band, but I'd expect the view/opportunity to be different for solo/duo acts.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Dave Holloway #3043194 05/11/20 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Holloway
Just read today that Nord Lead sales have dropped - first time in 80 years apparently.
grin

Actually, that's probably not true. MI sales and activities are up, which is a cool thing.

Sales of Instruments and Music Gear Are Soaring. Will Quarantine Spark a Renaissance?
Quote
Defying the economic downturn, online business is booming for Apple’s GarageBand music software, as well as Sweetwater, Guitar Center, Reverb, and other retailers

In the weeks since the concert industry was stopped in its tracks, there’s been a 55% increase in Google searches for Apple’s Garageband music creation software. Apple confirms the company is seeing record levels of interest in Garageband, with nearly 13 million downloads from its add-on “Sound Library” since early February — and hundreds of thousands of free trial downloads of Garageband’s pricier siblings Logic Pro X and Final Cut Pro X.

Apogee, which makes music-creation accessories including popular iOS and Mac products like HypeMic, just experienced its most active month ever. Roland, a popular manufacturer of electronic and digital musical instruments, equipment, and software, has seen a spike as well. Splice, which sells royalty-free samples, loops, and preset for producers, has seen more than one million sound downloads a day, the company tells Rolling Stone.

Instrument/gear seller Reverb is seeing success during this period with both new and used musical instruments — with buyers and sellers that range from large brands and local music shops to individual players and famous artists.
“We are seeing extraordinarily high order volumes, outpacing even the amount of orders we see during the busy holiday season,” says Jim Tuerk, the company’s director of business development. “Several of the music shops that sell gear on Reverb have even told us that March was one of their best months ever… Compared to this time last year, searches for music gear are up nearly 50%, with several categories — like ukuleles, MIDI [Musical Instrument Digital Interface] keyboards, and drum machines — seeing search spikes of 100% or more when compared to this time last year.”

Music retailer Sweetwater has also seen a significant uptick in content and product sales from its website. Sweetwater CEO Chuck Surack tells Rolling Stone that the previous seven days were bigger than the week they had after Thanksgiving last year. Sweetwater is getting 500,000 visitors a day — around double what they’d normally see — and they’re shipping about 15-20,000 orders every day, he says.

As far as gigs, that's going to be tough. This article breaks down some risks and you'll see it is worse for indoor spaces and longer exposures as well as the activity of the infected person. Someone yelling or singing is worse than someone just breathing. Being in a room with poorly circulated air for longer periods of time is bad. Fortunately, I don't know any clubs nor rehearsal spaces like that, so us musicians should be in the clear. smirk


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Jazzmammal #3043195 05/11/20 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jazzmammal
There is no huge Chinese areas in LA.
You apparently have never been to the San Gabriel Valley. LA Chinatown is for tourists. SGV is where it's at for real Chinese food.

Back to the topic at hand: I gave up my 4-6 times per month gig at the end of September. Just got tired of it for various reasons and wanted a break, which actually has been nice and recently I've been super busy with WFH software development contracting gigs. So that's been keeping me busy and semi-sane during the lockdown. It will definitely be interesting to see what live music looks like when we come out the other side of this. As others have noted, a lot of venues were operating on fairly slim margins and may not survive. One of my biggest worries is that the larger independent venues will all get assimilated into the LiveNation / Ticketmaster Borg collective.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043203 05/11/20 08:12 PM
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Evidence is mounting, not proof but mounting that warm weather helps with the virus:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/he...-slow-coronavirus/ar-BB13Udko?li=BBnb7Kz

Obvious good news, we may catch a break in the next few months buying time for possible therapies, more testing and more PPE.

Obvious bad news, there will be a spike in the fall, next winter could be bad and we could shut down again. We need some good meds.

Bob


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043237 05/12/20 12:09 AM
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Certainly that would help explain Florida. Florida does have hotspots (Miami area) but not the perfect storm of NYC. We have had hot (mostly 80 degrees F. and above) since February...and lots and lots of sun (drought conditions actually).

Seeing some studies about Vitamin D, again nothing for certain. D has been recommended for a while for many people; we as a society rightly want to avoid skin cancer (I know a few people have dealt with melanoma, the most serious form of skin cancer)--but one fallout from that has been Vitamin D deficiency. Even eating healthy food doesn't compare to sunlight.

There have always been worries about overdosing on D, but iirc this is not as easy as feared. Definitely check into that before taking it though.

Time can only help though. Meds and new techniques for dealing with this, and of course vaccine efforts are underway (well over 100 of them).

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Jazzmammal #3043239 05/12/20 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Jazzmammal
Evidence is mounting, not proof but mounting that warm weather helps with the virus:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/he...-slow-coronavirus/ar-BB13Udko?li=BBnb7Kz

Obvious good news, we may catch a break in the next few months buying time for possible therapies, more testing and more PPE.

Obvious bad news, there will be a spike in the fall, next winter could be bad and we could shut down again. We need some good meds.

Bob


Yes, I worked for a ten-eleven piece Asian dance band doing sound for awhile in L.A. after working for them I knew my way around the downtown real good. Also Asian dances at the Alpine Village which could get scary because some the Asian gangs would show up. Then discovered one my favorite last night places to eat was the Alps Coffee Shop that was Japanese owned and stayed open late on weekends. We'd go after gigs and be funny all these drunk Japanese business guys nodding off and doing a face plant into giant bowls of Donburi. We bring our own things to drink and smoke while eating and the young waitresses would come by and smell the air and just look at us and smile. We played lots of big wedding they were great because they would feed us same as the guests. There are lot of Asian gigs in L.A. especially the fraternities would have big dances. Only thing odd was getting used to how they would dance like crazy but not clap after a tune but wait until the end of the set.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043273 05/12/20 06:28 AM
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I used to go to Alpine a lot 20 years ago. My long time girlfriend did competition swing dancing including aerials and they had a big band every Monday night. It was open to the public so all the competition couples would wait for the last set when the public left to rehearse their routines for the big annual competitions like the International Swing Competition held at the Disneyland Grand Hotel. She and her partner, no not me haha, competed in the Cabaret division which was the full blown 1940's era stuff where the guys threw the girls all over the place. The girls get all the attention but it's the guys who have to really have it together. She said she had to have absolute trust in her partner or serious injuries could result, no different that high wire work in a circus which she did for two years. I used to be their spotter at rehearsals. Anyway, Alpine was fun I liked going there. I even did one big band gig there but that was a private party. Big stage and huge dance floor.

Yet another area of live entertainment that's shut down for who knows how long, the dance contests. Couples would come to the Disneyland Grand from all over the world.

Bob


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Jr. Deluxe #3043410 05/12/20 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Jr. Deluxe
Alot of young bands that couldnt break into some bigger clubs before, will now get a chance to fill a void or two. And 20 yrs old already dont care about health as evidenced by the risky behavior they can be known for so a virus will be of no concern for them. If you wait too long you could find your scene is gone and you've been forcibly retired. Besides, the Gov of New York said yesterday in a televised news conference that 66% of the cases that the hospital reported were infected while quarantined at home. Being in is worse than being out.
Yes but it's regional. Phase one is starting this Friday of reopening the state. There is no way I will let any 20 year old kids get any of my shows, I work too hard at it and our scenes competitive.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043562 05/13/20 04:32 PM
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Well, no one is more pessimistic than I about the fate of live performance--part of it is that I play mostly different forms of jazz, which require (at least for me) the energy created by physical proximity with both the players and the audience in order to really take off. But...

I figure I might as well dip my toe into the live broadcast arena and this friday May 15th I'll be reuniting my excellent latin jazz quartet for a one hour hit. it will be broadcast on FB and on instagram. The sound should be good, as this basement studio has done some good shows. The players are all raring to go--we haven't even been in the same room since our October gig! We'll have about 6 feet between us.

I will put the details in Shameless Plugs--would love to have some Keyboard Corner Dwellers in our corner!

FYI the instrument lineup will be Casio PX5s, Hammond SK1 (both through my Space Station), timbales, congas and bongos and electric bass.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Dave Holloway #3043613 05/13/20 09:49 PM
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I mean, debates on when to get back to rehearse is the first hurdle. Do I trust random musicians or even a few in my main band? Nope. Might not even rehearse until July at this rate, and I’m not even close to the most skittish in my group.

Three weeks ago I was invited to audition for a random group. The guy assured me they all took social distancing very seriously, and yet, they were inviting a stranger (me) to a rehearsal.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Fusker #3043619 05/13/20 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Fusker
Three weeks ago I was invited to audition for a random group. The guy assured me they all took social distancing very seriously, and yet, they were inviting a stranger (me) to a rehearsal.
I'm always skeptical about bands that would offer me an audition. If I'm good enough for them then they're no way good enough for me. As for social distancing, as per animated simulations of a sneeze ive seen, a cloud of droplets travels easily 15 or 20 feet in a second. You'd need a warehouse to jam in. And most stages in bars aren't bigger than 20 ft. Musicians on stage will have to forgo soc dist. All that hard breathing of a singer? Droplet factory.

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043688 05/14/20 01:21 PM
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I envision this not being an easy decision for some of us. Right now it's pretty easy, I can work from home, my kids don't see their friends or go to school or their sports leagues, my wife is working from home and not taking risks. Playing out would stand out like a red flag as being WAY more risky than anything else we are doing right now.

However, once my kids go back to school (if they do), the jig may be up...not sure how we could keep it out of the household. Likewise, my employer is likely to send us back to the office first chance they have cover (ie, the governor says it's "ok"...they waited until he said "work from home if you can" a couple months ago, which was later than I would have wanted.) I have a private space to work in and will wear a mask but not sure if others will, and of course restrooms.

I guess even if you have <some chance> of getting it, it's still better than <some chance + more>, so I will likely not gig just to lesson my chances. The rest of the band is already out playing so that's probably it for me with them after 7 years...

Last edited by Stokely; 05/14/20 01:23 PM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043695 05/14/20 01:46 PM
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My band has opened up the conversation on returning to weekly rehearsals, though it's not an easy conversation as folks have different risk appetites. We are all missing our time performing together and don't see a light at the end of the tunnel for live gigs aside from possibly a few outdoor gigs that may happen in Q3 or Q4, if possible.

Everyone has been mostly quarantined with limited exposure outside of immediate family members and whatever comes from weekly grocery visits. We are feeling like after two months+ of isolation that bringing together 6-7 of us to play some tunes together in a space that allows enough "social distancing" room that the risk is fairly low. We had talked about starting back up next week, though not everyone is 100% comfortable, so we are going to wait a bit more.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043721 05/14/20 03:58 PM
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I'm jamming again tonight with 2 others. We're cautious but still want to live our lives....last time we jammed we easily maintained distance.

One of my bands lost a guitarist a couple months ago and we're getting together next week to run through some of our set list to see what songs we can still do with one guitarist instead of two, and to try out some new songs to replace the ones we will be dropping. Our lead singer won't be there as he has a child with some medical issues and he's not ready yet. He can take as long and is under no pressure to return unless he's completely comfortable.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043863 05/15/20 02:33 PM
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As I mentioned in a previous post, my band has been asked to do a live streaming show at a local venue, and I recently received some information regarding how things work. The venue is decent-sized (capacity around 300-350), has a large stage, and is designed for live music. We've played there during healthier times. The band uses only their stage amps/monitors (i.e., no PA). Drums and amps are miked like a live show, keys DI-ed, and all signals are sent to a mixing counsel in a separate "studio" room where the live stream is mixed. Full light show, three cameras to capture the action. We play for 90 minutes.

The band has not played together for over two months, so we will have to rehearse at least once. We rehearse in a large warehouse where social distancing could be accomplished. So in conjunction with the large size of the venue and rehearsal facility, this could work, in theory. The biggest wild card/uncertainty is that I'm not sure how committed my band mates are to social distancing. I suspect that I will be the strongest advocate. Some rather direct communication will have to take place which I will probably have to initiate. I will have to tell them to not touch my gear, maintain physical proximity, and to not slobber all over the place. Depending on their attitude/responses, I may give this a "go."

Not sure how the shows are monetized, but I've heard from a musician friend that a popular local tribute band made excellent $$$ from a recent show at this facility. Kind of surprised to hear that. Wondering if other clubs around here will pursue a similar business model.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3043869 05/15/20 03:11 PM
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Moonglow, I am literally doing my first live broadcast video concert tonight. We will play for one hour. In between songs we will ask people to make donations via PayPal to support the guys. The details are up in the shameless plug’s section. I’ll let you know how it worked out.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
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Video clip from yesterday's backyard jam, with social distancing and masks. Scott Hill-vocal & guitar, John Hall-bass guitar, Hanne Andersen-cajon, Ted Garber-pedal steel, Lloyd Pollock-guitar, Peter Loeb-keys & sax

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3044180 05/16/20 10:24 PM
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One good thing from all this: the last few years everybody has gotten very huggy. If you had a good jam or accomplished something with someone or in a group, part of saying goodbye is a hug. Or coming into a group of people you know someone always feels like they want to hug. If they are women I dont mind but all to frequently it's not. Now even handshakes are taboo.

To get back on topic, if you take your mask down to sing you might as well be spitting in they air. If you dont sing, your bands singer is spitting on you. 90 minutes of gigging and any covid that anybody has is going to be all over the place. Staying 6 feet apart is just a vain ritual. Like a voodoo dance.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3044507 05/18/20 06:14 PM
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I've noticed that too. Kind of those "mafia-style" hugs as I think of them, quick and with pats to the back. Those happen at my work too among management between the various departments and it makes me want to hurl my coffee mug at them due to how fake it all is. Why do I hate happiness? Not sure grin

Seeing yet more chatter about vitamin D. This article is not about CV but talks about vitamin D and two things popped out to me: northern areas/sunlight and how that affects D production in our bodies, and also how minorities especially african-americans are much more prone to having D deficiencies.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/time-for-more-vitamin-d

Last edited by Stokely; 05/18/20 06:21 PM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Jr. Deluxe #3044955 05/20/20 05:29 PM
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Oh definitely, I’d at best be 50/50 about accepting this prestigious invitation under normal circumstances...but the dude either being delusional or outright lying from the get go make it a no-brainer.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3044965 05/20/20 06:29 PM
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Interesting days.

We just heard from the city we are contracted with to perform their 4th of July Festival (on July 3rd)

They have decided to do a virtual show. They have contracted a studio where we will setup to be streamed live. (once I know the address, I'll provide it if anyone wants to witness this smile )


David
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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3044989 05/20/20 07:57 PM
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Travis McCready Performs America's First Concert in Months

(I had no idea who he was until just now. Turns out, I saw his band Bishop Gunn open for the Stones last summer.)

Quote
Fans who had to have their temperatures taken and wear masks for the Travis McCready show said it was worth it for the experience of hearing live music again.

The concert offered a preview of what music fans may expect from an industry struggling to find a path forward in the age of social distancing. Forget arenas roiling with sweating, screaming fans. Here, concertgoers were required to buy seats in clusters, or what promoters call “fan pods” — presumably a group of friends comfortable being in proximity — with scores of empty seats roped off on all sides to ensure space between strangers. Of the 1,100 seats available, just 20 percent were available for sale.


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3045164 05/21/20 03:59 PM
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I've done a couple band livestreams from my driveway, actually 3 so far, each with a different band. My driveway is big enough that we can be set up in a square with 15' (feet, Nigel, feet) between us on all sides. My floyd band did a lean lineup, with just the 4 piece and sax (bass and sax are a couple, so safe to let them share a corner).

2 of my bands are going to be doing some really interesting live streams in the next few weeks. My improv band (4 pieces, no gtr) will be doing a livestream from the Museum of Natural History & Science in June, in the dinosaur exhibit! Dinosaurs, lasers and hazers, o my! grin There will be 7 of us including staff in the room, but with all distancing measures in place.

PinkFreud is doing a livestream from the Sunshine Theatre in Albuquerque on June 7. I'm not sure exactly how that's going to work yet logistically, but minimal staffing (no in-house audience) basically the producer of the event, sound engineer, 2 camera men, and my band, which is up to 8, including my visuals guy. It's got the largest indoor stage in Albuquerque which will help with distancing. But I'm envisioning a 2 or 3 tiered approach, with drums and vocalists on the top tier, and the 3 of us on flat stage, or else 2/2/2 with risers, stage, and floor.

I should add that the majority of my band has had to work in their various offices the entire time, and some of them are in healthcare. . I've been in total quarantine since this started: I think I've gone to the produce store 3x in as many months, I have my groceries delivered. And I have a 2 tiered keyboard stand with planks set up in the garage to disinfect the groceries before they're brought into the house, and aside from perishables, they stay in the garage another day or 2 after that. Only last week did we start doing carryout, and even then, it's microwaved (blech) before consumed. And since I expect the numbers to start climbing this weekend nationally, I'm done with the carryout for a while again. I literally only leave the house to walk the dogs. Its not an exaggeration. When we did the driveway jams, everyone was wearing masks except me while singing. I take this shit seriously as my wife is more than high risk and ..well, there you go.

I'm not in a hurry to be around other people honestly, so this will be an acceptable effort. Plus...I'm gonna be setting up a synth rig with a dinosaur. HOW COOL IS THAT? grin grin grin

Last edited by Tonysounds; 05/21/20 04:08 PM.

Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me.
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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3045433 05/23/20 04:28 AM
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We finally did our driveway jam today. Band leader has a huge gravel driveway in Fairfax. We set up on his porch, about 20 people spread out in front of us. During the break a cop showed up and said there had been a complaint about not social distancing. In fact everyone was wearing masks and distancing, but apparently not enough. He issued a warning to spread out more, then left.

Went well so we'll probably make it a regular thing this summer. People are starving for these kinds of experiences. We hadn't played 3 months and were rusty but it didn't matter.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3045439 05/23/20 04:58 AM
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Memorial day weekend. Waddia wanna bet therl be
swimmin at the beaches, churchin at the churches, parkin at the parks, sports at the sports places ect.
Thers no way this thing is going to stay corked up. I sense revo.....

Just sayin.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3045462 05/23/20 01:48 PM
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Not taking that bet. Already seeing it. This country is not willing or able to handle this like some others, for better or worse. I read a story of some stores banning masks--wrap your head around that one. I ONLY go to stores (if I were to go) that enforce mask-wearing, so now we are getting two polarized groups of consumers I guess wink The virus isn't going to stay corked up. Just a question over the next few weeks of how big a spike we get. Central Fla has been (surprisingly, to me) on the very low side of hospitalizations and death.

In a way, damn the torpedoes is good. Get it over with. If no huge effects, great. If there is a huge spike, maybe it'a learning experience, good. Right now is a sort of limbo where people are believing what they will based on the type of news they read and their politics imo. I'm still working from home so if there is a big spike from this, I'd rather it happen while me and my family are safe at home. At some point my work will make me go back to the office and my kids will be back at school. Flip side though, I don't want my brother who works in an ICU to be part of an avalanche of patients.

Last edited by Stokely; 05/23/20 01:54 PM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3045467 05/23/20 02:22 PM
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I've said this before, but can we try to make this the thread that doesn't get nuked? There's useful information to share about post-quarantine gigging. The more we give in to the temptation to discuss the virus in general, the more likely this thread goes away. Moderators have made this abundantly clear.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3045484 05/23/20 04:17 PM
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Thanks again, Adan. There are some really bright folks here whose opinions I have come to value immensely across a wide-range of topics, but for the purpose of this thread, I'm hoping we can keep that wisdom/insight channeled within the boundaries of post-quarantine gigging. This way we can continue to share strategies and experiences as things evolve in our new gigging environment, so that we can all benefit. 2thu


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing."
- George Bernard Shaw
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3045485 05/23/20 04:39 PM
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Hopefully we will now be keeping the conversation on track.

The situation: Band is looking to start rehearsing, would be in the BL's oversize garage (with the doors open, i trust) so should be enough room for social distancing. But with 4 out of 5 of us singing i'd still be concerned about (forcefully) exhaled droplets, so i'd think wearing masks would be called for.

So my question is, does anyone have any experience or insight on the feasibility of singing while wearing a mask ?

- Jimbo


"It's called an expression pedal for a reason: It's not a volume pedal." -- Dr. Lonnie Smith
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Adan #3045497 05/23/20 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
Moderators have made this abundantly clear.
Just to be clear, KC really has only one moderator. I happen to totally agree with his policies, because they work well and have kept this place one of my favorites on teh interwebz.

The only moderating I do is nuke posts in places like Garage Sale when they don't meet the qualifications like minimum number of posts. IOW, I'm just a janitor. wink

———
I got a call from the bass player of the band that's been getting together the past few weeks. I haven't returned his texts to continue to say "not yet" because I'm tired of telling him that, but I guess that's backfired on me. I need to call him back before the rest of the band gets there.


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
JimboKeys #3045522 05/23/20 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by JimboKeys
Hopefully we will now be keeping the conversation on track.

The situation: Band is looking to start rehearsing, would be in the BL's oversize garage (with the doors open, i trust) so should be enough room for social distancing. But with 4 out of 5 of us singing i'd still be concerned about (forcefully) exhaled droplets, so i'd think wearing masks would be called for.

So my question is, does anyone have any experience or insight on the feasibility of singing while wearing a mask ?

- Jimbo

Last night I made a "microphone isolation" box for my home studio. I have a constant battle with external noise sources so I first made a sort of "singing booth" out of heavy quilts, curtain rods and stands.
Now the box. It started as a 20" x 12" x 12" cardboard box. I glued a plush carpet sample to the bottom (now the back) and lined it with thick egg crate foam on the sides. I kept the lid flaps, taped them at the corners to make the box deeper.

Reading your post, maybe it would be helpful for containing exhaled droplets. The mic is inside, recessed from the edge of the box 6".
If everybody sang into a box like this they would not be spreading their breath nearly as much. Almost all of it would go into the box, plenty of surfaces for it to land and stay.
Not perfect but maybe good enough?


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
KuruPrionz #3045526 05/23/20 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
Last night I made a "microphone isolation" box for my home studio. I have a constant battle with external noise sources so I first made a sort of "singing booth" out of heavy quilts, curtain rods and stands.
Now the box. It started as a 20" x 12" x 12" cardboard box. I glued a plush carpet sample to the bottom (now the back) and lined it with thick egg crate foam on the sides. I kept the lid flaps, taped them at the corners to make the box deeper.

Reading your post, maybe it would be helpful for containing exhaled droplets. The mic is inside, recessed from the edge of the box 6".
If everybody sang into a box like this they would not be spreading their breath nearly as much. Almost all of it would go into the box, plenty of surfaces for it to land and stay.
Not perfect but maybe good enough?
One of the venues I used to play at had an outdoor stage, but complaints from neighbors were constant and voluminous. The venue built a plexiglass cage for the drums, in an effort to reduce the complaints. The cage was actually a room on 3 sides and the FOH sound had to be piped into the cage in order for the drummer to hear and play with the rest of the band. I'm thinking a portable plexiglass stand about 6 feet tall with 3 sides, each side about 3 feet wide, would be big enough to isolate vocalists on stage, including singing guitar players. For sitting keyboard players who sing, the plexiglass cage could be shorter but would have to be much wider.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
El Lobo #3045527 05/23/20 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by El Lobo
Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
Last night I made a "microphone isolation" box for my home studio. I have a constant battle with external noise sources so I first made a sort of "singing booth" out of heavy quilts, curtain rods and stands.
Now the box. It started as a 20" x 12" x 12" cardboard box. I glued a plush carpet sample to the bottom (now the back) and lined it with thick egg crate foam on the sides. I kept the lid flaps, taped them at the corners to make the box deeper.

Reading your post, maybe it would be helpful for containing exhaled droplets. The mic is inside, recessed from the edge of the box 6".
If everybody sang into a box like this they would not be spreading their breath nearly as much. Almost all of it would go into the box, plenty of surfaces for it to land and stay.
Not perfect but maybe good enough?
One of the venues I used to play at had an outdoor stage, but complaints from neighbors were constant and voluminous. The venue built a plexiglass cage for the drums, in an effort to reduce the complaints. The cage was actually a room on 3 sides and the FOH sound had to be piped into the cage in order for the drummer to hear and play with the rest of the band. I'm thinking a portable plexiglass stand about 6 feet tall with 3 sides, each side about 3 feet wide, would be big enough to isolate vocalists on stage, including singing guitar players. For sitting keyboard players who sing, the plexiglass cage could be shorter but would have to be much wider.


Yes, for stage you would have to maintain visibility. Sounded like they just wanted to practice. It may make visual cues a bit trickier for some. I've always used my shoulders, the headstock of my guitar or my stance (cowering down means "take the volume down here").


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3045528 05/23/20 09:39 PM
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For home recording I've seen people make a vocal box that worked well. They take like regular book box and cut a hole to pass cables thru and another in the top for when they want to hang the mic from a boom stand into the box. Then line the inside of the box with foam and that was it. The mic sat inside the box and singer sang into the box. Box was deep enough to vary how far back in the box you wanted it to control if you wanted any room sound.

But for singing for a show then I'd just get some sheets of clear plastic and make a shield like grocery stores and restaurants are doing. That way audience can still see the singer and any vocal spray will collect on the plastic. Just have to get creative to find a way to attach to a mic stand or make a separate stand for.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Docbop #3045530 05/23/20 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Docbop
But for singing for a show then I'd just get some sheets of clear plastic and make a shield like grocery stores and restaurants are doing. That way audience can still see the singer and any vocal spray will collect on the plastic. Just have to get creative to find a way to attach to a mic stand or make a separate stand for.
There's a business opportunity just waiting to be started here.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
JimboKeys #3045531 05/23/20 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by JimboKeys
So my question is, does anyone have any experience or insight on the feasibility of singing while wearing a mask ?
I'm not a singer, but it seems that things like air intake, projection, articulation, tone quality, clarity, etc., would be affected by wearing a mask. Seems the type of mask would be a variable as well.


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing."
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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3045547 05/24/20 12:27 AM
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Restrictions are easing in Australia, and, sooner than I expected, one of the gigs I had booked prior to the lockdown is back on in mid June.

And here was me thinking I might just have retired completely. After stopping work a few years ago I have continued gigging, but after more than 50 years of humping gear around I’ve been feeling the strain. Since the lockdown I’ve had everything set up to use at home. Much as I enjoy playing with other folks, it’s not hard to enjoy just playing on my own, and I’ve enjoyed the couple of occasions when I’ve been able to have someone else to join in.

As to how the gig will work, I have no idea. Our singer/sax/harmonica is the one band member who is most concerned about the situation and he certainly won’t be able to mask up. We are all of similar age, in the high risk category. I plan to ensure I have a mask, just in case - for example while loading, unloading and moving around. I won’t be singing so I could wear a mask while playing. They have an outdoor area, so weather permitting we could play outside, but normally we are inside, and I am right next to the entry door, so the air circulation there is good. Masks aren’t prevalent here at the moment, but this is a month away, so who knows. I might ask my daughter who is great with costumes if she could make something.

We have been very lucky here and we may be able to safely move into the next stage of recovery. Personally I wish they would remove our internal state border closures, as I have family I desperately want to visit.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3045556 05/24/20 01:42 AM
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Saw last night a local Karaoke DJ advertising that there were doing Karaoke at a local bar. I'm probably one of the more cavalier on here regarding easing restrictions and performing, but sharing a microphone all night with a bunch of strangers seems like about the worst possible idea.


Dan

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
J. Dan #3045572 05/24/20 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by J. Dan
Saw last night a local Karaoke DJ advertising that there were doing Karaoke at a local bar. I'm probably one of the more cavalier on here regarding easing restrictions and performing, but sharing a microphone all night with a bunch of strangers seems like about the worst possible idea.

A karaoke show last night here. You could bring your own mic. The production also brought 5 mice and they were disassembled after each use, and a new wind guard put on.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
EscapeRocks #3045576 05/24/20 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by EscapeRocks
Originally Posted by J. Dan
Saw last night a local Karaoke DJ advertising that there were doing Karaoke at a local bar. I'm probably one of the more cavalier on here regarding easing restrictions and performing, but sharing a microphone all night with a bunch of strangers seems like about the worst possible idea.

A karaoke show last night here. You could bring your own mic. The production also brought 5 mice and they were disassembled after each use, and a new wind guard put on.

Yes. Keep fresh wind guards on your mice. Very important.

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